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April 11, 2012

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Threadkiller

In California it is clear that even when the police arrive, you may still have to take matters into your own hands.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8161285

Extraneus

there is a picture of Trayvon supporters at the CNN link lun

one of their signs reads: STAND YOUR GROUND = KILL AT WILL

Meaning the person is either dumb, dishonest, or both. Always a very tough call with liberals.

Cecil Turner

Let me suggest that you are likely not living in a part of the country where people being armed is common.

Guess again. Let me suggest that following somebody closely enough to maintain visual contact on a dark night and maintaining proper minimum distance is difficult. And obviousy beyond Zimmerman's ability.

Wimps?

Yep. One was skinny as a rail, the other couldn't out-wrestle him.

But that has no bearing on the legal justification . . .

Concur.

Threadkiller

"Mrs Hughes, 53, said Mr Burgess fell in while trying to retrieve a plastic bag from the water. ‘He looked like he was swimming and had a smile on his face,’ she said. ‘The next minute he had stopped and was lying face down. The firemen arrived with the police and I said “He’s only been there five or ten minutes so if you hurry you might save him”. ‘He just said “We’re not allowed’ and I said “But that’s your job”. Mr Burgess was only 20ft away. I thought they would get him straight away. ‘I believe one of the police went in to get him but was told he was not allowed. I said to one of the firemen “Why don’t you go in?” and he said they couldn’t if the water was higher than ankle deep. ‘I said “You’re having a laugh”. He said “No, that’s health and safety”."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2104358/Simon-Burgess-drowned-firemen-refused-wade-3ft-deep-lake-health-safety-rules.html

Lowlights:


Gus

TK, politicians write laws.
When I was in Britain last year, it was illegal for me to buy a whittling knife to carve a CUB SCOUT PINEWOOD DERBY CAR as I hiked the Scottish Highlands.

Paula

centralcal, Hannity announced that he had talked to Zimmerman the day before yesterday, on his radio show. (I heard him.)

That's in all likelihood how his attorneys found out about it.

NK

Bob-- I did say if I were a juror I would easily acquit GZ based on the public evidence. But there are lot of jurors that would vote to convict without doubt. How would the OJ criminal trial jurors vote?

Bruce

Guess again. Let me suggest that following somebody closely enough to maintain visual contact on a dark night and maintaining proper minimum distance is difficult. And obviousy beyond Zimmerman's ability.

Don't disagree, and I am definitely not one to be up on this sort of thing, as it appears that you might be. On a dark night, Zimmerman probably did get too close to Martin, from a tactical point of view, but, then again, I question whether he was thinking tactically in the first place. Just maybe moseying along, trying to keep Martin in sight, and waiting for the police to arrive, who were apparently in route at the time. And, found to his dismay that he had inadvertently allowed Martin to get too close to him for safety.

My point was not supposed to be that Zimmerman wasn't keeping proper tactical distance, but rather was aimed at the idea that carrying a firearm was provocation for being physically assaulted. So, if I tried to jump from point A to point B, without proper support, I apologize.

Jim Ryan

It's 'elf 'n' safety, mate, innit.

Ahead of us, the pallbearers emerged from the hearse, very sober and reserved. And at that point they produced a contraption halfway between a supermarket cart and a gurney. "What's that?" asked someone.

Funeral directors are immensely finicky, and, in the course of a thousand-and-one questions about the size of this, the color of that, nobody had said anything about a shopping cart.

"Oh, that's to roll the coffin in on," replied one of the pallbearers.

"Hang on," I said. "You're pallbearers. Aren't you going to carry the coffin?"

"Not allowed, mate. 'Elf 'n' Safety. The path's uneven." He motioned to the dirt track leading from the church gate to the door.

"The path's been uneven for a thousand years," I pointed out, "but it doesn't seem to have prevented them holding funerals."

"It's not me, it's 'Elf 'n' Safety," he said, sullenly. "They'd rather we wheeled it in in case one of us slipped. On the uneven path."

Chubby

Deb, those sympathetic words indicate to me that GZ will be charged.

Bob

I don't know about anyone else here, but I grew up in NYC during a time when fights often ended with one person unconscious and bloody, having had his head and face and teeth kicked and bounced off the sidewalk or a curb until he wasn't moving anymore. Extraneus | April 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM

I grew up in rural Texas and anyone aiming for the head usually got more back than they bargained for. Again as I stipulated in a prior thread, assault to the head is different. It is instinct for humans to protect their head and assume that anyone directing an attack towards their face, jaw, back of the head, top of the head or side of the head is intent on severe bodily harm that may result in death since no reasonable person can claim that hitting in this area will not result in death. Repeated blows by any means directed at the head only intensifies the belief that the person hitting you is trying to inflict grievous injury. It could be argued that any other blow by Martin would not have garnered the same reaction from Zimmerman.

bgates

Zimmerman was clearly in a threat posture. He called the police

Bubu: I'm glad to see you, officer! I had to hit this guy in the back of the head with a rock, because he was threatening me!

Cop: Could you describe the threat?

Bubu: He called you guys!

Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)

NK,

YOu forget the fear factor. If someone were punching me and slamming my head on the ground, I'd be scared to death, which would cause me to pull the trigger - particularly after the same guy said: "Someone is going to die tonite".

Ignatz

--Deb, those sympathetic words indicate to me that GZ will be charged.--

Yeah, the use of the word 'victim' I found interesting.

Ignatz

--Yep. One was skinny as a rail--

Well referring back to our recent boxing discussion one could also say one was skinny as a Thomas Hearns.

Danube of Thought

So--Martin overheard GZ's calls to the cops?

I just wonder about the limits of this guy's stupidity. I don't think we've approached them yet.

How about it, bubu: did Martin overhear the calls, or not? Evidence?

(How many think we'll get a reply?)

Porchlight

Deb, those sympathetic words indicate to me that GZ will be charged.

I can read it either way. It could also be a statement to the family that we feel for you and we grieve for your loss, so we want you to have all the information that we can share, and our assistance and sympathy in explaining it, so that you will understand why we are unable to lawfully bring charges.

An attempt to soften the hard news that's coming, in other words.

Captain Hate

Melinda-that sounds to me like steadman doesn't think corey will charge and he is reminding her inappropriately that he will second guess her decision.

The chinless wonder should be up to his eyeballs in the Brian Terry case instead of meddling in an open investigation where his presence isn't warranted.

Gus

Broken nose ,head being slammed into pavement.


I'd blow the f##kers head off too.

bgates

Bubu, a hypothetical:
"John" supposedly yelled at the men on the ground to stop it, and said he was calling 911. Suppose his call - made within earshot of Martin - began with "Send the police, there's a black asshole beating up another guy (possibly white Hispanic)".
Would Martin have been within his rights to beat up John, too? Could the procedure have been repeated indefinitely, until Martin had legally beaten up everyone in the city of Sanford?

cboldt

Town of Sanford is gearing up for an event. Temporary metal fence barriers to restrict people from proximity to the intake area of the police station / jail.

NK

CaptH-- we can all be confident that no matter what Corey does, Holder will do the most repulsive thing possible.

Gus

What was skinny as a rail? The broken nose or the sidewalk?? I'll wait.

cboldt

-- Could the procedure have been repeated indefinitely, until Martin had legally beaten up everyone in the city of Sanford? --

Of course. That's what "NO_LIMIT" means. Free pass.

NK

Sanford gearing up-- any indication Corey is coming to Sanford today/tomorrow? or is this to protect public property no matter where the announcement is?

rse

LUN is an excellent barry rubin piece that I believe is accurate with what I can see. I think eon's comment on syndicate socialism is excellent as well.

I also think rubin would feel ill if he knew all the ways and places this has burrowed into place ready for either a 2nd term or administrators to continue to implement at the fed, state, and local levels while Reps continue to fund out of a fear of being accused of being heartless.

Chubby

((Temporary metal fence barriers to restrict people from proximity to the intake area of the police station / jail.))

to protect Zimmerman?

Gus

When Skittles Martin used the work N###### on Twitter, did that make it ok for people to attack him???

Threadkiller

Nice try, bgates. BungDuster won't fall for your trap. Give him the complete hypothetical, so he can give his identity opinion.

He needs to know what color "John" is.

PDinDetroit

AG Holder Vows Thorough Review Trayvon Martin Case. LUN.

James D.

That Holder article is absolutely sickening.

NK

PDinD-- thanks for the LUN.ding ding-- Holder jumps the gun and does a repulsive thing already. Ogletree is a slag; and the Murphy woman? so she lives in a nice neighb with the white people, and when her son comes home from "Boarding school" she let's them know? Moronic thy name is Murphy. so she tells her rich white neighbors not to call the cops when they see her son back home from "boarding school"-- why would she do a thing like that? the truth that may never be spoken, that too many crimes are committed by to many black boys wearing hoodies. It's a pathetic confession by Murphy, but a confession nonetheless.

Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)

Let's hope Eric Holder is no longer in office before the "thorough review" is done.

Harold

narciso: I contacted the perhaps unfortunately named Tim Lynch and he replied that "Jurist took a while to publish an article I wrote about two weeks before" and that we of course know more "every day". He feels the his major point about Stand Your Ground not being applicable is still true (which I think is obviously the case); not being a lawyer let alone one focused on this area I can't speak to his sense of what Florida law will deem as "provocation".

He could well be right, although I think in the Jurist item he was speaking about the scenario where Zimmerman continued his following and confronted Martin, not Zimmerman's claim (that we've only heard indirectly and I think fairly recently) that he was walking back to his vehicle (i.e. retreating) when Martin confronted him, which I would assume would change Lynch's following analysis, plus he acknowledge scenarios where a self-defense claim would be solid, such as the following:

Cecil Turner: It takes more than "provoked" to defeat a self-defense claim in Florida, if the provocation wasn't deadly force or threat of it and the other combatant escalated to deadly force. E.g. Martin knocking Zimmerman down and going for his gun, which I think has been claimed by a relative of Zimmerman and which the failure of his gun to feed its next round would support.

Captain Hate
Laura Murphy, director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said she lived in a development that transformed from mostly black to mostly white. She said she sent emails to her neighbors when her son was home from boarding school that pleaded, "Please, do not call the police, because if you see a young black man walking around the neighborhood with a hoodie, that's my son."

This fits what I'd expect from an ACLU member: Rather than do something positively proactive like introducing her son to the neighbors or telling him not to dress in a manner that people that don't know him might react negatively to, she effectively disarms everybody by stating that *any* young black male they might encounter is her son and to leave him alone no matter what he might be doing.

NK

CaptHate-- I think you're being generous- emailing her neighbors and telling them not to call the cops? moronic. I am more focused on the "Boarding School" business. Why aren't the public schools in DC good enough for her son and the ACLU? why is her son and the ACLU too good for DC public schools?

PDinDetroit

Martin's shooting served as a theme for the three-day gathering of National Action Network activists. Charles Ogletree, a Harvard law professor, said at a panel following Holder's speech that Trayvon Martin is "a symbol of what's wrong" with the criminal justice system.

"I want to see the first black man who uses the `stand your ground' defense and see if it works. Or the first white victim of the `stand your ground' by a black defendant and see if it works," Ogletree said.

We have had at least 1 Black Man here in Detroit use the SYG Law here in MI and it was found to be a "justified shoot". These can be found as Act 309 of 2006, Act 310 of 2006, and Act 311 of 2006 (MCL 780.951 - MCL 780.974, starting at LUN).

Maybe facts do not matter to these people...

Captain Hate

NK, don't get me started on the hypocrisy of those idiots.

O/T Sharon Tate couldn't be reached for comment: http://tammybruce.com/2012/04/charles-manson-parole-decision-expected-by-this-afternoon.html

cboldt

Another reporter, this one a reporterette, with the surname of Lynch. It has a sort of "We're slow and stupid, not evil" quality to it.

The result has been that conjecture, speculation and assumptions about what happened that night have helped shaped the case in the country's mind. For example, it was weeks after the shooting before America began hearing greater details about Zimmerman's side of the story.
Captain Hate

Per Tammy Bruce quoting the WaPo: GZ will be charged with something.

cboldt

LUN - That WaPo story.


Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

Extraneus

Oh great. These threads aren't going away.

cboldt

ABC says "today."

A decision on whether to charge Florida neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman with the shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin has been made, sources told ABC News.

The decision by Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey is expected to be announced at a 6 p.m. news conference in Jacksonville, Fla.

PDinDetroit

6 p.m. news conference in Jacksonville, Fla.

Far more to burn in Jacksonville...

MarkO

"Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation."

What? I'm shocked, shocked to learn that the Special Prosecutor would do such a thing.

Race remains the driving feature of life in a Southern town.

cboldt

Yeah, but keep in mind that "6 p.m. today" comes from Matt Gutman. I suppose there will be a flood of reports around 3 PM EDT, if the report is true, because Corey will send out that heads-up.

Jay

According to the Washington Post:

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

======================

Bubu will have to watch in a diaper because of the excitement, I'm sure.

cboldt

That WaPo story is spreading very rapidly. Probably 50 or so "independent" parroting that Zimmerman is going to be charged.

James D.

If it's true, and if there isn't damning new evidence that we haven't seen, then this is simply shameful.

cboldt

"Independent" in scare quotes, because they all point back to WaPo and the anonymous law enforcement source.

MarkO

Given this hostile climate, what are the chances of an actual, as opposed to a legally permissible, fair trial?

Threadkiller

I just watched MSNBC for no apparent reason. I did learn two things from the experts.
Big Z allegedly sustained alleged injuries. And Trayvon's girlfriend's conversation is not alleged.

If I did not use allege properly, I don't care.

That is how I roll.

cboldt

Yeah. Well I recall Rita Cosby breathlessly announcing, as she held the SCOTUS decision in her hand, that "Gore won!"

Took a few minutes to get that little blooper straightened out, but eventually the opinion was comprehended, even by the press.

It would be great fun to prank the press with a false story.

Jay

Fox has picked up the WaPo story.

Interestingly ABC News is simply going with "press conference at 6pm"

Threadkiller

Bloomberg stands his ground. "Guns don't kill people, the NRA kills people."

pagar

"Given this hostile climate, what are the chances of an actual, as opposed to a legally permissible, fair trial?"

NONE! At the time Eric Holder made his first comment on this case the chance for a fair trial ended, IMO.

Janet

Like Tim Russert gushing how excited they were about Libby too.
"It was like Christmas here last night," describing the anticipation of indictments coming down.

"Russert: "But I mean, it was like Christmas Eve here last night. You know, Santa Claus is coming tomorrow. Surprises! What's going to be under the tree? But we do expect that this will unfold. Probably in the next hour or two hours, we'll have some indications of where it's headed, and we do expect to hear from Patrick Fitzgerald early this afternoon." "

Ignatz

I thought high fructose corn syrup and carbonated beverages killed people.

MarkO

Mr. Zimmerman should call Roy Black. He's an actual lawyer.

cboldt

ABC has switched to "he's going to be charged."


A Florida special prosecutor has decided to charge neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman in the shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin, sources told ABC News.

The decision by Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey is expected to be announced at a 6 p.m. news conference in Jacksonville, Fla.

narciso

Whatever, the truth doesn't matter anymore, (if it ever did).

Extraneus

I don't think Hispanics will be happy about this.

rse

I don't think evidence supports and I think holder, wapo, and now abc are saying charge him anyway or there will be riots.

This smells like a coordinated attempt to bully by creating an expectation that only charges can satisfy even if not merited.

This looks every bit as lethall to the rule of law as the chrysler bankruptcy rape of the creditors in the name of justice for the unions.

That reference always brings in OL.

Threadkiller

The "news leak" is designed to serve one of these two purposes.

Make Big Z cough a bullet. His suicide would prove his guilt.

Or, force the press conference to an earlier time slot. What time does Sharpton's show come on?

centralcal

Extraneus - "Hispanics" aka "Latinos" don't care one whit, because his last name is ZIMMERMAN, not Garcia or some such, and he is from PERU not Mexico.

LaRaza activists have already sided with Trayvon.

Sue

Even though my guess was she would charge Zimmerman with something, I'm still kind of shocked that she is. And if this leak is wrong, and she doesn't charge Zimmerman, all hell will break loose for real.

Jim Ryan

TK I never tire of your drier witticisms.

cboldt

ABC, NBC, and WaPo seem to be the three originating sources of "will be charged."

Danube of Thought

If she charges, I'll grant that she does so in good faith. If a trial ensues, it's going to be an agonizing ordeal for the country. But that's how it has to proceed.

fdcol63

" ... And if this leak is wrong, and she doesn't charge Zimmerman, all hell will break loose for real. ..."

Which seems to have been the MSM's goal all along.

cboldt

CNN is another one ...

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who says he shot Trayvon Martin in self defense, "will be (criminally) charged, if he hasn't been charged already," a senior law enforcement source familiar with the investigation told CNN Wednesday.

Threadkiller

How do we know NBC didn't edit "will not be charged"?

PDinDetroit

Can you imagine the outrage if she announces "No Charges" after these "News Leaks" this afternoon?

Could it be that the MSM is trying to "control the narrative" once again? Not like they have not done this before or anything...

cboldt

-- If she charges, I'll grant that she does so in good faith. --


Her explanation has to hold water, in order for the charge to be brought in good faith.

PDinDetroit

Damn, TK beat me to it!

Nicely done sir!

narciso

I'm not buying it, till I see Corey doing the press conference in person, there's been too much anonymous 'vouching' in almost a month,

Threadkiller

Shemp demands we wait for all the details. Meanwhile he describe the charges to be comparable to a cafeteria that does not have "meatballs on the menu".

I did not make that up.

PDinDetroit

OT - Harvard to Offer "Understanding Obama" Class. LUN.

cboldt

I don't see any way a prosecutor would shift from one side to the other, based on a barrage of last minute reports.


Threadkiller

I have a secret, PD. I have found DoT's liquor locker, while he is out of town.

I am leaving IOUs.

James D.

If she charges, I'll grant that she does so in good faith.

What reason is there to grant that?

The agitators who took up the cause of "justice for Trayvon" are demonstrably acting in bad faith, as is the President and Attorney General of the United States, as are virtually all the MSM outlets in basically every aspect of their coverage of this mess.

With the caveat that there may be seriously damning evidence we're unaware of, I can't see a decision to prosecute as anything other than a politically-motivated decision under severe pressure from bad actors who have openly threatened violence if they don't get what they want.

NK

DoT-- I don't know about that @3:08. My guess is that the State will continue to do what's convenient. Payoff the family and the lawyer, 'payoff' the hustlers with 'community funds' and a POA campaign about responsible gun carry behavior and anti-profiling training for neighborhood watch, and GZ? he pleas down, surrenders his carry license, and takes home confinement for months not years. It's very early, but that ismy very preliminary sense of how this plays out. making angels dance on heads of pins at trial is madness.

cboldt

Seems the 3 hour heads-up has been given.

SANFORD, Fla. - A special prosecutor has confirmed that there will be a 6 p.m. news conference regarding the investigation of the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

Threadkiller

"OT - Harvard to Offer "Understanding Obama" Class. LUN."

It is impossible to get any grade higher than a B+.

cboldt
The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.

Knows there is a charge, but doesn't know what it is. Un huh. Wicked credible. Not authorized to talk, either. What is this, the senior stenographer? Chief janitor?

MarkO

"it's going to be an agonizing ordeal for the country" Yes, and it will be the huge distraction that Obama has hoped it would be.

Why, on earth, is the lawyer who resigned on TV talking about the facts of the case?

Why this case? Are there not dozens, hundred of murder cases on the dockets across the country? It's Obama, Holder, Sharpton and the Media. Even if it were a racially motivated murder, it's hardly the only one.

fdcol63

Well, if this doesn't disgust you, nothing will:

Eric Holder Praises Left-Wing Activist Al Sharpton, Says Facts, Law Will Guide Trayvon Martin Investigation


http://cnsnews.com/news/article/eric-holder-praises-left-wing-activist-al-sharpton-says-facts-law-will-guide-trayvon

MarkO

Judge Nepo says the case has caused "harm to the African-American community." Is he bubu?

MarkO

Shep says just a "dead child" doing nothing but going to get candy. It could be true, but the facts will have to change radically. Zimmerman and the percipient witness are such liars, one supposes.

cboldt
A controversial Florida law allows the use of deadly force when a person senses a reasonable fear that he is in danger of being killed or of serious injury.
Let that sink in for a minute.
narciso

Imagine actually trying to base any opinion on this,

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html#morer

centralcal

Just saw Judge and Jury Shep Smith full of histrionics over the death of this dead child, with nothing more on him than skittles and iced tea. To quote Judge Shep "c'mon people!!!"

Grrrrr.

fdcol63

Shep Smith is a liberal idiot.

Clarice

IT would serve the lying media if their anonymous source proes as unreliable as the rest of the carp they've printed about this case, would't it?

Danube of Thought

"Her explanation has to hold water, in order for the charge to be brought in good faith."

Certainly true. I say I will grant her good faith only because I indulge a presumption that prosecuting authorities act honorably. I know that they often do not, and the presumption is eminently rebuttable.

Let's see what she has to say.

NK

cboldt-- that quote is what this is all about for the Legacy Media. Attack gun owners, attack politicians who respect gun owner rights, impose anti-gun owner laws. SYG has nothing to do with this case, and I was surprised to find that the Fla and NYS self-defense statutes are qualitatively identical.

Rick Ballard

Zimmerman's decision to give the police a statement without an attorney present now seems rather unfortunate. There may be physical evidence which conflicts with the statement he gave and which would support the lead investigator's purported desire to have Zimmerman charged. Lack of powder residue would constitute such a discrepancy if Zimmerman asserted very close proximity when the shot was fired. The fact that the screaming for help on the tape only ceases with the sound of the shot led me to believe the proximity must have been very close.

SWarren

Hannity on radio just now telling someone there is another tape yet to come out. Don't know if he meant audio or video.

NK

RickB-- do you know if GZ was Mirandized when he was cuffed and brought in? If he wasn't, supressing his statements to the EMT,cop on the scene and major crimes detective is fight #1. One of the worst things about our 'system' is a naive innocent can talk themselves into jail.

Rick Ballard

NK,

All I know is that neither the responding officer nor the officer in charge of the scene noted the warning having been issued in the portions of their reports which were released.

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Wilson/Plame