Trayvon Martin: New From Daily Beast

Aram Roston of The Daily Beast has George Zimmerman's account of Trayvon Martin's last words, as well as leaks from law enforcement officials familiar with the case.

As has been reported, Zimmerman told police officials that he lost sight of Martin and went around a townhouse to see where he was. Then he claimed Martin confronted him and punched him, knocking him down.

According to The Daily Beast’s source, Zimmerman told police that when he was on the ground, Martin straddled him, striking him, and then tried to smother him.

Zimmerman claimed that he yelled for help, and that various neighbors who peered out to see the fight from their backyards didn’t get involved. Zimmerman, the source said, told officers he was so paralyzed by fear that he initially forgot he had a gun, but he said that after Martin noticed his 9mm pistol, Zimmerman pulled it out of his belt holder and fired one round, a hollow-point—the round that killed Martin. (The autopsy report on Martin has not yet been released.)

According to the source, Zimmerman told police that Martin’s last words after the shooting were, “Okay, you got it.” He said the phrase twice, then turned and fell face-down on the ground.

(Martin’s father told reporters last month that police had told him his son’s last words were, “You got me.” Benjamin Crump, the family’s lawyer, said he doesn’t believe either account.)

That seems to broadly match the story the father told.

According to the source, Zimmerman told police he didn’t realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground. Moments later, a police officer from Sanford arrived, placed him in handcuffs and took his gun.

OK, that is a new detail which may explain Ms. Cutcher, who saw Zimmerman above Martin after the gunshot.

Here is one for the voice experts:

Then there are the dramatic cries for help heard on the 911 call during the struggle. Martin’s mother said it was her son’s voice, and the special prosecutor in the case agrees. But Zimmerman’s supporters argue that the pleas came from him.

The source familiar with the case said that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators had Zimmerman lie on his back in another location in an effort to recreate the position he said he had been in during the shooting. Then, the source said, investigators recorded Zimmerman as he shouted what had been heard on the 911 calls: cries such as, “Help me!”

Well, well - I have argued that unless the police waterboarded Zimmerman they were unlikely to get credible screaming from him, and the audio forensic experts say that matching speech to screams doesn't work.  Who knew that Zimmerman would volunteer to scream? Well, he took a long time to lawyer up.  And does the Miranda warning say "Anything you scream may be used against you"? I don't think so. That said, this opens the possibility that the investigators actually had something an audio expert could work with, and that the matching effort came out against Zimmerman. 

Interesting - voice evidence wasn't mentioned in the arrest affidavit but could explain the attitude of the prosecutor.  As to whether this hypothetical voice matching can survive a defense effort to reject it at trial, who knows?  My guess is the defense will look for experts to say that screams under true duress, such as in a fight, can't be mimicked voluntarily.  Is that true?  Beats me.

Zimmerman is the dumbest and most cooperative guilty man in America if he is making his story up. Or maybe he is experiencing PTSD and post-concussive memory loss.  Move to dismiss!

Here is a heck of a concession from the Martin family attorney:

Crump said it was not clear that Martin threw the first punch but, argued that even if he did, Zimmerman’s actions launched the entire sequence of events. “Trayvon Martin had every right to stand his ground,” Crump said. “We believe that Trayvon went to his grave not knowing who this strange man was that was approaching and confronting him.”

"Not clear"?  If they are entertaining the notion that Martin did throw the first punch, that is helpful for Zimmerman. Let's further note that "approaching and confronting" aren't "punching"; not to sound crazy or anything, but instead of punching Zimmerman a calm "Just headed back to my house to watch the ball game" might have been a better response. Promoting a message of calm and restraint might even be a better way to honor Trayvon's memory.

Comments

[Rob Crawford]

Crump said it was not clear that Martin threw the first punch but, argued that even if he did, Zimmerman’s actions launched the entire sequence of events.

Crump is a race-baiter of the Sharpton school. He knows damned well that the thug-life kid threw the first punch and that nothing Zimmerman did instigated it.

[cboldt]

A few remarks on this article in the WSJ thread too.

So, where to put the reports on the credibility meter? 0? 85%?

Oh, wait. Skip credibility. Where to put this report on the "widely disseminated by the press" scale? That's one is easy. Less than 10%.

Free the Serino Affidavit!

[Eugene V Debs]

Is there actually a Serino affadavit?

[Sue]

Cool. Trayvon had a right to stand his ground. They like that law, when it is applied the way they want it to be applied. Apparently, Trayvon's girlfriend isn't supporting the media's story that Zimmerman attacked first.

[Are Trayvon's fingerprints on the weapon?]

OK, you got it, sounds like possession of the gun was iffy for awhile.
====================

[BlahBlahBlah]

Yep, Rob Crawford

The man who said Zimmerman "hunted down" Martin and killed "in cold blood" is hardly a logical source for information on anything pertaining to this case. Everyone would be a lot better off if people stopped quoting Crump on anything.

The source familiar with the case said that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators had Zimmerman lie on his back in another location in an effort to recreate the position he said he had been in during the shooting. Then, the source said, investigators recorded Zimmerman as he shouted what had been heard on the 911 calls: cries such as, “Help me!”

That's interesting though.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

It's good to see a bit of a counteroffensive coming from some sharing the defense/SPD perspective.

From the articles that Narc linked, I was heartened to hear that the new judge on the case has wide ranging trial experience and has been a trial judge for 15 years. He also gets high marks from lawyers who have appeared before him as being even handed but no-nonsense.

He comes up for reelection in 2015. The plot thickens.

The article mentions that GZ has made statements to three different law enforcement agencies. If there are any inconsistencies, no one from the prosecution/Martin side has seen fit to highlight them.

[NK]

TomM-- this is maddening, even the triple hearsay of the parents neighbors, doesn't match up with the double hearsay from the 'law enforcement source'. The neighbors say that TMartin confronted GZ, GZ went to get his cell phone, TMartin saw the gun and a struggle commenced. The hearsay from the source is that GZ told the cops TMartin doubled back on him and punched him, they struggled, then T Martin saw the 9MM. I guess we'll find out at the immunity hearing what the 2 sides are really saying. Patience, Patience. But I will say this, GZ supporters should be very conncerned that GZ talked for hours to several different sets of law enforcement. Not good for GZ.

[jwest]

Is this the judge we want?
• He is a Vietnam combat veteran,
• Judge Lester is by-the-book.
• Judge Lester has handed down the death sentence in two high-profile cases, one involving an axe murderer.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/04/19/meet-the-new-judge-handling-george-zimmermans-case/?mod=e2tw

[cboldt]

-- Is there actually a Serino affadavit? --

Do you doubt Matt Gutman? Free the affidavit, so the public can read how Serino wanted to charge Zimmerman!

Sounds like SPD was pretty rough on George - lots rougher than the non-interview by Corey's team of crack investigators.

[BlahBlahBlah]

Oops, didnt realize the article would expand while I was typing that up...

Anyway, I now think the single most interesting part of that entire article may come in this sentence:

"Locals in Sanford, the Orlando suburb where the shooting took place, and in nearby Lake Mary, where Zimmerman’s parents lived, appear to be exhaling after a month of national controversy and protests."

The Cities name (Sanford) links to this article:

"The City of Sanford’s Racist Past"
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/04/the-city-of-sanford-s-racist-past.html

Because apparently some guy from the 1870s is the real key to this case.

*facepalm*

[Rob Crawford]

But I will say this, GZ supporters should be very conncerned that GZ talked for hours to several different sets of law enforcement.

Nothing we've heard indicates there were any inconsistencies in what he told them.

Besides, if he'd refused to speak to law enforcement, I suspect you'd be crowing that it looked like he had something to hide. You can keep claiming not to be in the tank for the lynch mob, but the way you react and what you react to...

[liontooth]

"As has been reported, Zimmerman told police officials that he lost sight of Martin and went around a townhouse to see where he was."

Did this happen after the dispatcher told Zimmerman we don't need you to do that ?

At that point does the act of pursuing Martin mean Zimmerman acted as a policeman?

The Florida Concealed Carry law:
"3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan.""

www.tinyurl.com/floridacc

[NK]

JRhodes-- I agree that this is some SPD pushback - BUT -- the pushback is we did our job, not that GZ is immune. Remember, their case was still open when the race hustlers started the publicity, so my guess is the SPD detectives were saying 'we got nothin', but that meant they couldn't exonerate GZ either.

jWest-- the judge? if he's tough and no-nonsense he probably has a finely tuned BS detector. So whichever side is running the most BS is in trouble IMO. we'll see.

[Danube of Thought]

The bubumeister will find a pony under this pile of dung. Count on it.

[Rob Crawford]

Because apparently some guy from the 1870s is the real key to this case.

I'd bet that 95% of the people in the city had never heard of its "racist past" until the last few months.

[Rob Crawford]

The bubumeister will find a pony under this pile of dung. Count on it.

NK led him there already.

[Tom Maguire]

Let me just quote Extraneus from the WSJ Zimmerman thread:

Innocent or not, though, how can you possibly re-create the chest-constricted sound of your own panic? If it was Zimmerman screaming, it's probably the only time he's made that sound in his life.

cboldt had a good answer:

Maybe they had one of the investigators sit on him while another held a gun to his head. That would probably work.

Hmm - do we have peer-reviewed studies endorsing that technique? I mean, other than '24' reruns...

Is it safe to say that skepticism about the audio evidence is shared?

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

In an interview two weeks after the incident, Chief Lee said witness statements and physical evidence backed up Zimmerman's version of events. He suggested that based on the timing of the call, he believed that Trayvon went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and mouth off.

"If Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesn't Trayvon keep walking?" Lee said. "He's 70 yards from his house. I think based on the timing of the call and Zimmerman losing sight of him, that he had made it to that 'T' (at the end of the path) and was starting to walk towards his house.

"My wish is that he would have kept walking."

In midst of the public fury over his handling of the incident, Lee stepped down from his post. Reached by The Herald on Friday, he declined to discuss the case.

"We can't discount (Zimmerman's) story, based on — not evidence we put anywhere, not testimony we put in anybody's mouth — but testimony of witnesses who were there, that called, and the physical evidence that's there. You can't refute it," Lee said in the early interview. "The conclusions that are drawn from the basic information is that George Zimmerman shoots a 17-year-old kid with a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea can. And you know, those are facts: George Zimmerman did shoot Trayvon Martin, and Trayvon Martin did have a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea.

"The fact that he had a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea does not have anything to do with the facts of why George Zimmerman thought he needed to use deadly force."

Seattle Times

[jwest]

Damn, I miss Jack Bauer.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

but that meant they couldn't exonerate GZ either...

But they did let him go, and the only available reasons for doing that were that Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin or that he did so in self defense. Sometimes actions do speak louder than words.

[Danube of Thought]

"Is it safe to say that skepticism about the audio evidence is shared?"

I haven't heard anything that would suggest that any of the experts heard from thus far will be permitted to testify.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

This like a game of telephone or a coversation with Tracy Martin; two different but similar stories.

Crump has gradually shifting to a Trayvon was standing his ground but was a 17 year old unarmed boy story for awhile.

Only release photos of young Trayvon, make sure no audio or video can be found, insist that Trayvon is the one screaming, influence public opinion, get GZ charged and taint the potential jury pool.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

I still have problems with the gun struggle story though.

[Clarice]

"heck of a concession," indeed. Any day now and we'l recall how the Tawana Brawley case went down.

[NK]

RobC- seriously give it up. You and I couldn't keep the time of day straight if we had to keep repeating it to cops over and over during the course of hours of interrogation. GZ telling his story to SPD, state cops and FBI exactly the same way? GZ would have had to have been Houdini to do that. Cops/Agents make their living picking up on and highlighting inconsistencies-- it's what they do. And they assume everyone they interrogate is guilty. Seriously Rob, I hope you are never arrested, because you'll talk yourself into prison. Mike Tyson did-- William Kennedy Smith was guilty as hell, but he kept his mouth shut, and let a clever lawyer create reasonable doubt at trial. One of the glories of our criminal justice system is that naive innocents talk their way into jail and wise guys keep their mouths shut. I'll repeat my personal opinion one more time, I hope the facts ultimately show that in this tragedy GZ was foolish to follow TMartin, but he had no choice to defend himself when a big kid was pounding GZ's head on the ground -- no crime. But I don't know that yet-- and neither does anyone else.

[Danube of Thought]

"GZ supporters should be very conncerned that GZ talked for hours to several different sets of law enforcement. Not good for GZ."

That's correct--nothing he said to the cops can be used by the defense (except to rebut certain things), but any inconsistencies or admissions can be used against him.

I think the way O'Mara tries this case will be guided entirely by Z's statements to the cops. Those statements throw a net over him, and while they might hurt him they can never help him.

[NK]

JRhoads-- the SPD detectives (presumably major crimes det. serino) did not have enough PC to convince the Chief and local prosecutor to file an arrest affidavit, and charge GZ with a specific crime that night. So GZ had to be released subject to further investigation. I assume the detectives wanted to keep looking for witnesses, keep calling GZ back in and interrogate him repeatedly to 'catch him in lie', check out his background and reputation in the community. All the stuff a thorough investigation should do. And it looks like the SPD was doing just that-- then the race hustlers got involved. This SPD pushback shows they took this case seriously, this wasn't a cynical bunch of cops giving a 'good guy' a pass.

[Adjoran]

I don't know - would cops ask him to lie down and scream at the scene? Why? How could they possibly know or believe that would be an issue at all? Never heard of such an investigative technique.

But GZ was questioned for a total of over five hours at the scene and the station, without an attorney. It is nearly impossible for even a completely innocent person not to say something contradictory in that time, as NK notes above.

Which is why we NEVER talk to the police: http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc

[lyle]

Kind of refudiates all the internet ads I see stating:

Self defense experts say a 9MM may not be enough! Click here!

[chas]

so now crump is embracing the SYG laws??

[cboldt]

-- At that point does the act of pursuing Martin mean Zimmerman acted as a policeman? --

The point where he uses force, unlawfully. He can follow, he can shout, he can insult, he can mock, he can do anything short of an action that would cause a reasonable person to apprehend unwelcome/unlawful touching.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

Is Crump actually the law enforcement source?
This is like when the story changed from Dee Dee switch ing from some crazy white guy is following me to some dude is following me.
Or when the story changed to Trayvon had ducked under the awnings at the club house to get out of the rain but then saw scary GZ so naturally he left the clubhouse, put his hood up for rain protection, then started walking so as not to seem suspicious.

Somebody has been feeding puff pieces to reporters.

How the H-E Double stick is there no video or audio record in existance of a kid born in 1995?
Who has TM's phone?

[Richard Aubrey]

NK
Smith might have been guilty. But we don't know. The question was consent. I think the jury, after having heard all the "yes"es stipulated prior to going to his home decided reasonable doubt as to the ultimate "no" was justified.
Good choice. But the question as to consent has not been settled.

[lyle]

he can do anything short of an action that would cause a reasonable person to apprehend unwelcome/unlawful touching.

Apprehend?

Anyway, didn't stop Bill Clinton.

[BlahBlahBlah]

“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”

Possibilities of extremely minor inconsistencies, maybe - but meaningful inconsistencies, nope...

[Jack is Back!]

Don't know if it has been noted already, but Governor Scott has convened a task force to look into the efficacy of the current SYG law and whether it should be amended, rescinded, head-butted, sliced and diced or plain killed. Sad to see how Scott, Bondi and Corey have decided their future in politics depends on how much bowing and ass-kissing they can do to the race baiting community.

Also, regarding Sanford's racist past: They had quite a kerfuffle back in 2000 during the POTUS election. All eyes were on Palm Beach County but in Sanford the GOP was real stupid in handling absentee ballots and got a little help from the board of elections in Seminole County. This sort of sent the Dems and the black community over the edge from which the Town and County continue to feel. But then Sanford has always been a tough old river and rail town.

[cboldt]

-- Apprehend? --

Short way of saying your mind is convinced it's real. Not apprehend in the sense of being caught by the cops.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

Actually I meant to write that Dee Dee initially said Trayvon noticed that he was being watched and now it is the more ominous and helpful to the prosecution FOLLOW.

Cboldt
What about so called "fightin' words"?
I saw today an entry on Google where someone claimed GZ used the N word too.

[lyle]

Oh. Comprehend, then.

[cboldt]

The press is turning up the heat on the pressure cooker. Got a story about "This generation's Rodney King," and Martin's parents refusing to meet with Zimmerman.

Healings, nothing more than healings ....

[Fisticuffs]

"Self defense experts say a 9MM may not be enough! Click here!"

Hollow points help from both a fatal wound perspective with expansion and limiting collateral damage by making it more difficult to pass through objects in one solid mass and striking something on the other side. Plus getting lucky with what it hit helps too. Remember, 50 cent got shot 9 times.

[AliceH]

Setting aside voice matching technology or experts, it can be plausibly argued that a near verbatim recreation of words and cadence of screams and cries for help to what was captured on the 911 recordings is evidence of someone repeating themselves vs. some fiendishly clever attempt to pretend the victims screams were their own. I know I couldn't pull that off. If Z's recreation matches, I'd find that strongly suggestive the original was also Z's voice.

[NK]

RichardA-- Kennedy Smith? you're right, OK I admit my bias he's a drunken Kennedy so I assume he's GUILTY. One of the things I marvelled at in that story was WK-Smith and Patrick Kennedy were going to bed on GOOD FRIDAY night, when uncle Teddy busted in their room and said let's go out to the gin mill for some Chivas. That's where WK-Smith met the girl. On Good Friday night!!-- man Teddy was a pig.

[cboldt]

-- What about so called "fightin' words"? --

Depends on the words. Insults don't justify throwing a punch. But, if you say you are going to deck somebody, and move like you mean it, well, you are the aggressor because a reasonable person will believe you mean it when you say you are going to hit them. The aggressor might not land the first punch, in that case.

[cboldt]

-- Comprehend, then. --

Sort of. It's in the nature of believing something is about to happen, based on sensory input.

Gawd, I get tired of talking technical. When do I get to talk dirty?

[cboldt]

-- Plus getting lucky with what it hit helps too. --

As quick as he went down, sounds like a heart shot.

[lyle]

man Teddy was a pig.

Name a Kennedy who wasn't...

[DebinNC]

So far, I'm not seeing what Crump could use to successfully sue Sanford or the SPD. Where were they at fault?

[AliceH]

Name a Kennedy who wasn't... Rosemary?

[lyle]

Remember, 50 cent got shot 9 times.

Can't tell you how pleased I am that I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Died 2005.]

Rose Marie.
======

[lyle]

No fair, Alice. But I'll rephrase:

Name a Kennedy from the non-distaff side who wasn't a pig...

[Barbara]

According to the source, Zimmerman told police he didn’t realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground.

That's a hummer. He shot Martin in the chest with a hollow point at fairly close range, and he didn't realize that Martin was *seriously* injured.

[BlahBlahBlah]

"Name a Kennedy who wasn't..."

Arabella Kennedy?

[May she rest in peace.]

Heh, Alice.
======

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

So, if GZ is rounding the corner on his recon mission and Whoops! here comes a pissed off 6'3" honor student who was visiting his family and working for habitat For humanity comin' at him hard and fast, makin' threats and talkin' trash, would one be able to claim(at 5'8")
that you decided offense is the best defense so I will sucker punch HIM and that you acted in self defense?

Purely hypothetical of course.

[NK]

Lyle-- you know what-- for all his faults John-John wasn't a pig. My cousin's husband was his Secret Service detail on Scorpios during the Onasis days, and good friends of mine were drinking buddies of his at the Manhattan DA's office, he even bought his suits where I've been buying mine for 29 years, I met him there a couple of times by chance. Nice guy to us little folks. Not the brightest guy, obviously a world-wide celebrity, but he seemed really normal-- and he took care of his nutty wife. So there's one non-pig, and a biggie.

[lyle]

He shot Martin in the chest with a hollow point at fairly close range, and he didn't realize that Martin was *seriously* injured.

Maybe he believed those internet ads....

[Jack is Back!]

Rose Kennedy was a Fitzgerald. Old Honey Fitz was her Dad. She and He were no Kennedy's.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

Though my posts seem to belie it, English IS my first language.

[lyle]

I figured someone would come up with John-John, NK. I'll take your word for him.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

If your Mother and Grandmother conspired to dress you in knee socks "just lke John John"
you would not be a fan.

[NK]

Lyle-- OK,now watch, some female JOM reader will make me out a liar saying JFK jr raped her.

[Jack is Back!]

Ignatius J Donnnelly,

Jesuits were a factor in your Mom and Dad's life, right?

[Ol' Joe's daughter, we presume.]

Alice & I speak of her daughter, and 3rd child, JiB.
===============

[BlahBlahBlah]

"That's a hummer. He shot Martin in the chest with a hollow point at fairly close range, and he didn't realize that Martin was *seriously* injured."

Is it possible Zimmerman, in the chaos of fending for his life, didn't know if the gun was pointed at a section of his body which would cause serious injury when it fired?

I mean, I know it goes against the whole "cold blood" narrative we are supposed to believe and all, but I just cant imagine Zimmerman was able to pull his gun, ensure it was flush against a vital section of Martins body, and carefully pull the trigger.

Martin quite likely would have protested to that...

[AliceH]

JiB - not Rose, Rosemary, daughter of Rose and Joe Sr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy

but lyle has disqualified her, so ... moot.

[NK]

"knee socks' that's rough -- at least you're a partial namesake of the founder of the Society of Jesus ... uh.. depending on your point of view that can be a good or bad thing.

[lyle]

I hope not, NK. But the variety of life experiences and acquaintences of the commenters around never ceases to amaze me.

[AliceH]

Heh, again. Wish I knew how to refer to you, oh ye of the ever-changing "posted by" name. :-)

[lyle]

but lyle has disqualified her, so ... moot.

Beg your pardon, ma'am.

[Just lucky Zimmerman isn't dead.]

Again, 'OK, you got it' sounds like neither had full possession and control of the gun when it went off.

I think that is pretty damn likely, too. Try lying on your back, head being pounded on the ground, and drawing your gun without the headpounder grabbing at it.
==============

[NK]

Lyle-- when I first met him at a drink fest after he flunked the bar for the FIRST time, after about 5 Irish Whiskeys I brought up my relation's name-- Jr's eyes got huge-- its a ridiculous coincidence, but he calmly said 'nice guy played baseball catch with me -- what did he say about me' I assured him the Sec Service guy said he was a nice kid. It was even better at the suitmakers, all the seamstresses were looking around corners an pointing at JFK Jr,and I walk in and we say hello to Jr. -- I had my 15 secs of fame right there.

[Porchlight]

I know it's not wise to cooperate as fully as GZ did, but to my mind it speaks to his innocence. He wanted them to have as much information as possible about what happened. I'm sure I would have been just that stupid in the same situation w/o an attorney present.

[Barbara]

John Kennedy, Jr. had his father's charm and his mother's good looks. I thought that he was gorgeous and really quite brave to live his own life under the tremendous pressure that he must have had to endure.

[Fisticuffs]

"That's a hummer. He shot Martin in the chest with a hollow point at fairly close range, and he didn't realize that Martin was *seriously* injured."

Sitting at your computer you might not think so, but if you were in a heated fight, getting your face and head beaten then took a shot, you don't know exactly where the bullet entered, if at all, or what bullet hit inside. Unless you have x-ray vision, but if you did, you probably have other super powers and wouldn't need a gun.

Not that I want to get hit by one, but 9mm are relatively small. This is why there are around 15 people shot in Chicago every weekend but only 3-5 die.

[JeffC]

Martin doubled back ... we all know that ...
he thought he was thug material with his grill and tats ...

he was wrong ...

[lyle]

I had my 15 secs of fame right there.

Was this before or after "Marla" slept with him on Seinfeld? j/k

[NK]

Barbara-- how do I put this-- everyone thought JFKJr was gorgeous, straight women, gay guys, seamstresses, I never saw anything like it. And if you were out in public with him, a tiny-tiny bit of that rubbed off on you. Amazing.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

Ignatius J Donnelly is my nom de just one minute. In my world of aging former bohemian friends, being a GZ supporter would raise eyebrows.
Ignatius J Donnelly founded a utopian community in Minnesota, was the Lt Guv during the civil war and claimed he had found Atlantis. In short he was kind of a crank. John Kennedy Toole probably named the main character in A Confederacy Of Dunces after Donnelly.
JFK was the only Democrat my Grandmother ever voted for. A fellow papist ya know.

[At least I hope so.]

Double Heh, heh, Alice, I'm a bot.
============

[Barbara]

if you were in a heated fight, getting your face and head beaten then took a shot, you don't know exactly where the bullet entered, if at all

Martin is banging Zimmerman's head on the ground. Zimmerman is in fear of great bodily injury. Zimmerman sees that Martin sees the gun, so he takes the gun out of its holster - all the while Martin is still bashing his head on the ground. Zimmerman shoots Martin at close range, and Martin says, "You got me," or something similar.

Martin is on the ground - prone. Zimmerman still in great fear doesn't retreat to his vehicle. He jumps on Martin. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[lyle]

Hey, NK, I'm as hetero as they come, but JFK Jr. was one good-looking guy. Way back when I was in LA for a six week training class, one of my classmates was a near dead ringer for John-John. Got us into a lot of bars with rope lines and bouncers over on the west side of town.

[Jack is Back!]

IJD,

See, I knew I should have googled the name first. I feel like Ayers writing about dog meat.

[NK]

I look up the dates, Jr. flunked the bar in 1989, that was 1 year after he was People Magazine Sexiest man Alive-- yeah he was a big deal back in the day.

[Ignatius J Donnelly]

Martin doubled back ... we all know that ...
he thought he was thug material with his grill and tats ...

he was wrong ...

Judging from recent photos he hardly looks the thug. What he was was a tall kid who came from a much tougher place than GZ and could not brush off the percieved insult of some guy who assumed he did not belong there.
He should have used his words-calm words.

[lyle]

Coroner's report. A GSW wound from that close range would place a lot of gun powder residue on TM. Especially if he had a hand on the gun on discharge.

[Rick Ballard]

Speculation:

Zimmerman rounds the corner and is surprised to find Martin, who is as surprised as Zimmerman. A brief verbal exchange occurs which terminates with Martin landing a punch with sufficient force to break Zimmerman's nose and knock him off his feet. Zimmerman is so stunned by the punch that he cannot protect his head from smacking the concrete. Martin drops onto Zimmerman, straddling him. He delivers a few blows while Zimmerman is still stunned but Zimmerman begins to respond and Martin is forced to pin his hands. Zimmerman begins hollering for help as he realizes that he lacks the strength to break the pin. The struggle and hollering continue until eyewitness John adds his "I'm calling 911". Martin realizes that he needs to make his getaway and lifts his upper body while releasing Zimmerman's wrists. In raising himself, he sees the gun and Zimmerman sees him glancing down and goes for the gun. Zimmerman gains control and fires. "Jim" (or "Jeremy"), husband of the 911 caller who is on the phone when the shot is fired, is standing on a balcony looking down at the struggle. From his vantage point it appears that Martin has released Zimmerman and begun to rise as he disengages as the shot is fired. His position above the incident prevents him from seeing Martin's struggle for the gun.

That's my take and that's why Zimmerman was foolish in providing any info to the police. If "Jim/Jeremy" stated that "Martin was rising, as if to flee", then Zimmerman has a very real problem if he minimized Martin's action in releasing and rising.

[NK]

Lyle-- especially on his hand if there was an active struggle for the gun. Plus, any skin under T Martin fingernails from the fight? the forensics will be huge. and yet, no mention of any forensics in the arrest affidavit. Does the State really have nothing?

[derwill]

"He should have used his words-calm words."

One of the places were GZ's and Dee Dee's stories jibe is right before the "struggle ensued" Z asks M--What are you doing here?

I really believe M. would be alive today if he'd just told Z he was visiting Dad and said he was on his way home and then turned and walked back home. Z knew the police were on the way and could check out the story, so he'd have no reason not to back off.

"Okay you got it." is a really odd thing to say right after you've been shot.

[NK]

RickB-- very plausible scenario-- very plausible.

[narciso]

I pointed this out, earlier, as they set the
scene, 'nudged' as Cass Sunstein would say with the CRS;

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Hundreds-rally-in-NYC-in-memory-of-Trayvon-Martin-3425861.php

[Jack is Back!]

Are there two more dour, hang-dog looking people in the whole world than Harry Reid and Patty Murray?

[lyle]

"Okay you got it." is a really odd thing to say right after you've been shot.

To say nothing of them being his last words.

NK: Is the coroner's report even finished?

[DebinNC]

Zimmerman told police that when he was on the ground, Martin straddled him, striking him, and then tried to smother him

Trayvon was trying to "smother" GZ's cries for help, not stop his breathing imo but GZ's nose may have been out of commission at that point and Trayvon's hand over his mouth felt to GZ like he was being smothered.

[Mark Folkestad]

I.J. Donnely, your real historical namesake settled in Dakota County, on the south side of the Mississippi River from St. Paul, about three or four miles north of my apartment. I didn't have to do any web search for the guy.

[NK]

Lyle-- I have not scene any public account of the coroner's report, except for the one line in the arrest affidavit.

[BlahBlahBlah]

"Judging from recent photos he hardly looks the thug."

[lyle]

"Angelic," indeed.