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April 25, 2012

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Strawman Cometh

Can you explain why TM did not just go on back to his Dad's girlfriend's place instead of backtracking around and attacking GZ?

Good try, Sara. But this level of stupid is impenetrable to the So Crates.

Strawman Cometh

Keep on with this obscene comparison, Boris.

Here it comes, Natasha.

Sara

No, TM was not an "interloper." He was staying with one or more family members who lived in that complex, and he did belong there.

TM nor neither of his parents lived there. Get your facts correct, please.

Sara

Kathy is a racist through and through. She is one of those people who thinks everything is about race. There is nothing in this case that has anything to do with the skin color of either TM or GZ. This case is all about a 17 year old wannabe gangsta who thought, like most 17 year olds, that he was invincible. And it is about poor parenting.

Clarice

Should anyone doubt the existence of eternal life, point them to this thread,

Niters.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Trayvon chose his fate, GZ did not."

Yep. Trayvon chose to go out for some snacks from the 7-11 and forgot to check his skin color before he stepped outside.

GZ, on the other hand, was totally at the mercy of that supernatural force that compelled him to point his gun at Trayvon Martin and shoot him.

"only kaka has a conscience, you know."

Nope, I'm not the only one who has a conscience. You probably do, too -- you just forgot where you put it.

boris

Trayvon chose to knock a man down get on top and bang his head on concrete. The person he chose to attack had a gun, used it, and that's one of the likely consequences of Trayvon's choice. Trayvon brought his end upon himself.

GZ was legally, ethically, and morally just watching out for himself and his neighbors. You skin color crap is all bullshit.

Strawman Cometh

KK,
We've been round and round here. Please share your thoughts on Tawana Brawley.

Beasts of England

KK@11:06 - '...forgot to check his skin color...' Well, at least you're not introducing bias into your factual analyses, huh?

Kathy Kattenburg

"TM nor neither of his parents lived there."

Oh, his father isn't one of his parents? Okay.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Well, at least you're not introducing bias into your factual analyses, huh?"

Right. Racial profiling is not bias, but pointing out that it's bias is bias. Gotcha.

boris

Trayvon's father's girlfriend lived there princess factless.

The only "evidence" suggesting racial profiling was faked princess liar.

Ah yes good times good times ...

Princess Kaka: "It's not about "the bloody nose and the bleeding scalp wounds" being evidence in a trial; it's about referring to "the bloody nose and the bleeding scalp wounds" as if these injuries were absolute confirmed fact. THEY ARE NOT. What has to be demonstrated in a courtroom is that there is actual independent objective physical evidence that there WAS a bloody nose and bleeding scalp wounds."
heh ... bless her little pea picking brain.

Kathy Kattenburg

"GZ was legally, ethically, and morally just watching out for himself and his neighbors. You skin color crap is all bullshit."

Okay, so all that stuff y'all told me over and over about how blacks commit most of the crime so that's why it's okay to assume every black male is suspicious, has nothing to do with skin color. Gotcha.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Trayvon chose to knock a man down get on top and bang his head on concrete."

And you know that for a fact... how?

Sara

Yep. Trayvon chose to go out for some snacks from the 7-11 and forgot to check his skin color before he stepped outside.

GZ, on the other hand, was totally at the mercy of that supernatural force that compelled him to point his gun at Trayvon Martin and shoot him.

And she proves my point about her being a racist in her very next remark. KK this case has nothing to do with race. Zero, zilch, nada.

The mob, OTOH, is nothing but about race, screw the facts, screw the evidence.

GZ did not POINT his gun at Trayvon. GZ was on the ground, being held down by Trayvon. They were struggling and Trayvon was reaching for the gun at GZ's waist as was GZ. The shot was body to body, no pointing involved.

Some guy

Okay, so all that stuff y'all told me over and over about how blacks commit most of the crime so that's why it's okay to assume every black male is suspicious, has nothing to do with skin color. Gotcha.

KK, please provide an exact quote to back that up. If you can't, don't post to this thread again. Deal?

Kathy Kattenburg

"Trayvon's father's girlfriend lived there princess factless."

Oh so that means his father wasn't staying over there on the night Trayvon visited, and that wasn't why Trayvon was there. Trayvon was there to visit with his father's girlfriend, not with his father, right. Gotcha.

boris

"has nothing to do with skin color"

Hell I never said any of that did I princess liar. Again, real slow this time ...

T H E - O N L Y - C L A I M - O F - P R O F I L I N G ...

W A S - F U C K I N G - F A K E

Kathy Kattenburg

""GZ was legally, ethically, and morally just watching out for himself and his neighbors. You skin color crap is all bullshit.""

Ohhhhh, I see, so that means GZ was watching out for Trayvon's father's girlfriend, right? Because she lives in that apartment complex. I get it now! GZ was protecting Trayvon's father's girlfriend from Trayvon!

Sara

KK: We do not know if his father planned to shack up with his girlfriend that night or not. All we know is they left her son and his son home alone while they went out to dinner.

Kathy Kattenburg

No, no deal. Almost everyone here said it over and over again all through every single thread on TM here in which I've participated. Which means that your "I don't know what you're talking about" act is just that -- an act. And I'm not enabling it.

boris

"neither of his parents lived there."

11:28 Oh, his father isn't one of his parents?

11:40 his father wasn't staying staying over ...

Can't keep your talking points straight princess. Being a first time guest of someone who lives there means the watch guy probably doesn't know him yet.

Kathy Kattenburg

"KK this case has nothing to do with race."

Oh, okay, so all of your sarcastic jokes about how if old white ladies were committing all the burglaries and home invasions GZ would have been suspicious of them, had nothing to do with race. Gotcha.

Some guy

No, no deal.

So you are an admitted liar?

Either back it up or shut up. Take your pick.

You made an assertion, you *have* to back up, otherwise you're a fool who deserves whatever ridicule comes your way.

Sara

KK: You do know that the rash of burglaries and home invasions that had occurred at that complex in the previous 2 months before this incident were by young black guys, right? Might explain why any sketchy acting young black man might raise suspicion with any of the residents, including George Zimmerman.

Most black crime, BTW, is black on black. What is your deal anyway, besides being blinded by your own racism? Why do you keep trying to inject it here?

You do realize that George as a black/Hispanic with a dose of white in him is as much a minority as Trayvon. Besides, he is a registered democrat, which in my mind makes him far more a subject of pathetic insufficiency of grey matter than anything in this case.

Kathy Kattenburg

"GZ was on the ground, being held down by Trayvon. They were struggling and Trayvon was reaching for the gun at GZ's waist as was GZ."

And you know this for an indisputable fact... how?

boris

How do I know this?

Trayvon chose to knock a man down get on top and bang his head on concrete. The person he chose to attack had a gun, used it, and that's one of the likely consequences of Trayvon's choice. Trayvon brought his end upon himself.
GZ's explanation is consistent with his injuries, eye witness statements and police reports of the incident. We have all read about GZ's statement and seen the photographs of his injuries and read the police report.

My conclusions are based on those reports and the overall consistency of them. Far as I can tell yours are based on lies.

boris

Well princess Kaka, unless you have better reports, more accurate photographs, more credible eye witnesses it would seem your conclusions are based on made up shit and lies.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Please share your thoughts on Tawana Brawley."

Oh, my thoughts on Tawana Brawley. She's black, and 25 years ago when she was 15 years old, she lied about being raped and having feces smeared on her, so that means that black people in general are liars and criminals, because God knows white people never lie about black people having committed a crime that a white person was responsible for, and this is all extremely relevant to an unarmed black teenager being shot to death in February, 2012.

Will that do?

Sara

And you know this for an indisputable fact... how?

I only know this from listening to what was said in court about powder burns and my own indisputable ability to discern that if there are powder burns on Trayvon, he had to be damn close to the gun when it went off.

Sara

Oh and let me add that it is consistent with Zimmerman's description of events and with the witness "John" who saw Trayvon on top of George beating on him and reported that George was screaming for help and then he heard the gunshot a couple seconds later. And it is consistent with the 911 tape where we hear GZ screaming almost inhumanly and then the shot. So add it all up and it starts to become indisputable to the reasonable person.

Strawman Cometh

And you know this for an indisputable fact.

Dispute it.

so that means that black people in general are liars and criminals,
Projection.

extremely relevant.

The Reverent Al Sharpton

Strawman Cometh

Keep bringing it KK, your side is winning

Have Blue

Kathy Every piece of evidence shows that TM attacked Zimmerman. No evidence shows the contrary.

You claim that your definition of "self-defense" allows you to attack a person who happens to be walking behind you. Do you really mean that?

Abadman

It is hard to get shot in the chest walking away from a fight

Beasts of England

KK@11:29 - Of which 'racial bias' do you speak in your reply to me? These threads can be confusing to track, and introducing 'racial bias' appears to be a non sequitur. Thank you.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Dispute it."

I have, 17 zillion times. Are you a machine that's broken, is it that you cannot read, or are you lying?

Kathy Kattenburg

Sara 1: "There is nothing in this case that has anything to do with the skin color of either TM or GZ."

Sara 2"This case is all about a 17 year old wannabe gangsta... "

A wannabe gangsta, Sara? Oh yeahhhhh, this case has notttthhhhing to do with skin color. :-)

"And it is about poor parenting."

You have no way of knowing what kind of parents Trayvon's mom and dad are. What a cruel, hateful thing to say. I don't know what kind of human beings your parents are, Sara, and I don't know if you are the result of poor parenting, but I can surmise that it probably was not very good.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Should anyone doubt the existence of eternal life, point them to this thread,"

LOL! Now *that's funny! Genuinely, Clarice. Thanks for making me laugh -- in a good way.

Kathy Kattenburg

"We do not know if his father planned to shack up with his girlfriend that night or not."

Excuse me, SHACK UP?

Tell me, is it fun for you, using racially tinged language and then claiming you are not a racist, and this has nothing to do with skin color?

Kathy Kattenburg

"Being a first time guest of someone who lives there means the watch guy probably doesn't know him yet."

Ah, so that means that everytime anyone who lives in that complex has company, GZ follows them and asks them who they are and what they're doing there. Right?

Kathy Kattenburg

"You made an assertion, you *have* to back up, otherwise you're a fool who deserves whatever ridicule comes your way."

You demand that I "back up" stuff that's been said by almost everyone here, in some cases multiple times, throughout this thread? That means either you don't read or you can't read. Or you're a liar. You choose.

Kathy Kattenburg

Statement 1:"You do know that the rash of burglaries and home invasions that had occurred at that complex in the previous 2 months before this incident were by young black guys, right? Might explain why any sketchy acting young black man might raise suspicion with any of the residents, including George Zimmerman."

Statement 2. You made an assertion, you *have* to back up, otherwise you're a fool who deserves whatever ridicule comes your way."

On the other hand, sometimes the back up falls in your lap.

Tom Maguire
Excuse me, SHACK UP?

Tell me, is it fun for you, using racially tinged language...

I try to learn something new every day, but this looks like a twofer. In addition to discovering eternal life, I am now learning that "shack up" is racially tinged.

Two online dictionaries fail to confirm that. Has the definition become tinged since the national prominence of Shaquille O'Neal? Or can you provide us with some enlightenment here?

Kathy Kattenburg

"GZ's explanation is consistent with his injuries, eye witness statements and police reports of the incident."

No, it is not. I'm not sure about the police report, I'd have to look it up again, but the photographic evidence is NOT consistent with the injuries GZ reports. And the eyewitness STATEMENT (one, as far as I am aware)
provides only ambiguous information, open to varying interpretations. He ("John," right?) saw two people wrestling on the ground. He did not see how the fight started; he could not know for certain, for either man, who was the aggressor and who was defending himself. It's evidence, but it's unclear what it means. That's for a jury to decide after hearing all the facts in the case.

Kathy Kattenburg

"... unless you have better reports, more accurate photographs, more credible eye witnesses it would seem your conclusions are based on made up shit and lies."

In other words, it's okay to use crappy evidence to drop all charges against GZ, as long as no strong evidence has been found.

That's intriguing logic, boris.

Kathy Kattenburg

"It is hard to get shot in the chest walking away from a fight."

It's hard to shoot someone in the chest when you're walking away from a fight.

Here is TM's attorney making the point, much better than I could, about GZ being a stranger to TM and TM having no obligation to tell him his business.

"Trayvon Martin does not have to identify himself to a stranger," he noted. "George Zimmerman never identified who he was to Trayvon." "If he (Zimmerman) doesn't get out of the car ... if he doesn't act as if he's the police, none of this happens."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin?lite

jimmyk

In other words, it's okay to use crappy evidence to drop all charges against GZ, as long as no strong evidence has been found.

That's intriguing logic, boris.

And Kathy stumbles upon the "intriguing logic" of "innocent till proven guilty" "probable cause" (the requirement to have actual evidence of a crime before proceeding to charge someone). Not bad after 7 days of utter confusion on her part.

(And no, the mere fact that a person has shot someone is not evidence of a crime if there is evidence to support a claim of self-defense.)

Kathy Kattenburg

I know I'm going to regret trying to explain this, but here goes anyway....

Tom, the term "shacked up" is a crude way of referring to two people living together or having sex without being married. That much I'm sure you know. It's not the phrase in and of itself that's racially tinged, Tom. It's how and when phrases like that -- "shacking up," "gangsta," are two I've seen here -- are used.

Did you know that the former Kate Middleton and her husband, Prince William, lived together before they were married? You probably did. Can you imagine anyone saying that Prince William "shacked up" with Kate Middleton?

People can choose what words and phrases they use to describe common human situations. Living together before or instead of marriage is one of the most ordinary things in the world these days, and has been for some time now. I don't usually see people referring to it as "shacking up," unless they're trying to imply that the two people involved are low-class, or immoral. At best, it's an insulting, offensive term.

I could say more, but I guess I'll leave off here for now.

jimmyk

Can you imagine anyone saying that Prince William "shacked up" with Kate Middleton?

Yeah, like maybe those racists at MSNBC?


http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40253368/ns/today-today_news/t/royal-shack-up-kate-william-moved-months-ago/

(Hint: It's a good idea to do 30 seconds of research before making up stuff.)

Strawman Cometh

I feel ashamed

Kathy Kattenburg
"Yeah, like maybe those racists at MSNBC? http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40253368/ns/today-today_news/t/royal-shack-up-kate-william-moved-months-ago/ (Hint: It's a good idea to do 30 seconds of research before making up stuff.)"

"We cannot find the page you requested."

LOL

Kathy Kattenburg

The link worked the second time I tried it. I looked at your link, too, Strawman.

I stand corrected.

Kathy Kattenburg

""And Kathy stumbles upon the "intriguing logic" of "innocent till proven guilty" "probable cause" (the requirement to have actual evidence of a crime before proceeding to charge someone)."

There WAS evidence of a crime. Shooting an unarmed person is homicide. Homicide is a crime. If the perpetrator claims self-defense, that has to be proved. In a court of law. Unless the evidence in favor of self-defense is so overwhelming and compelling that a prosecutor decides to drop charges. Which it wasn't in this case.

Tom Maguire
It's not the phrase in and of itself that's racially tinged, Tom.

We agree! Of course, I can't square that with your earlier "Tell me, is it fun for you, using racially tinged language...", but let's press on.

Can you imagine anyone saying that Prince William "shacked up" with Kate Middleton?

No need to imagine! As noted, MSNBC did. Also, ABC News (GMA). And as a bonus, there is a related headline from March 30:

Which Hot Hollywood Couple Just Shacked Up Next Door to Prince William and Kate Middleton?

That would be Penélope Cruz and Javier Bardem. Declasse.

Google can be your friend, if you let it. It will introduce you to a much wider world, and perhaps shake some of your misperceptions.

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