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April 12, 2012

Comments

Brian

It's just that when he follows Martin... at night...

Where's the crime there? What felony am I committing if I walk the same path someone walked previously? What, in particular, have I done that makes it acceptable for them to attack me?

It's sickening but like I said in the other thread I think the fact that Z left his SUV is the one turning point in this case. If you think he shouldn't have done that then you are likely to think he's a racist wannabe cop/vigilante who "stalked and pursued" poor Trayvon.

If you think he has every right to take a walk in his neighborhood to investigate suspicious people then your likely to think it was self defense.

She's going to argue that it's not self defense because he left his car after being advised not to. He escalated the encounter.

Unless they have more evidence I think it should be tossed out of court. I don't know that there is a judge brave enough for that though.

cboldt

-- the affidavit doesn't cite any evidence to support that recounting of events; --


The only possible source of that account is DeeDee. DeeDee's statement is in the file that accompanied the summary affidavit.

-- Corey intentionally ignored all evidence that argues for self-defense. --


Any evidence that contradicts the narrative in the affidavit is ignored, I agree. And I think at least the affidavit conclusion that Z followed M against dispatch suggestion is impeached by Z conversation with dispatch. Corey doesn't explain why the affidavit is correct faced with reliable contrary evidence.


-- ISTR that the original prosecutor DID look at all the evidence, and didn't think there was enough to over come the claim of self defense. --


The two individuals have diametrically opposite theories of the events based on the same evidence, so they come to opposite conclusions.


Pluse, Corey's narrative is DeeDee's narrative - the original prosecutor did not have that.

Brian

I think Z made a mistake that night following M, especially after the dispatcher warned him not to and told him that the police were on the way.

The dispatcher didn't warn him not to follow. They said "we don't need you to do that". that is not a warning, or an order not to follow.

Rob Crawford

Pluse, Corey's narrative is DeeDee's narrative - the original prosecutor did not have that.

So?

Nothing in DeeDee's claims changes the fact that witnesses saw St. Trayvon(tm) on top of Zimmerman, slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk.

Laqeesha M

Can DeeDee testify that she recognized the sound the fist made when hitting the face because she has heard it many times?

cboldt

-- She's going to argue that it's not self defense because he left his car after being advised not to. --


The evidence doesn't support that assertion. And even if it did, the who started it clock runs backwards from the gunshot, not forward from a point of the prosecutor's choosing. Getting out of a truck is not provocation. Harsh words are not provocation. Throwing a punch or making a move that can reasonably be viewed as going for a weapon are acts of provocation.


She can pull BS arguments against laypeople, but it's not going to fly against a capable adversary with a knowledgeable judge as the referee.

NK

The Affidavit-- not surprisingly thin stuff, for GZ supporters, 3 important facts:
1. shot in the chest (BuBu no more he was shot in the back of the head BS from you or anyone else)2. the affidavit admits GZ was out of his truck when the 911 dispatcher asks him to go back to the truck and meet the officer there; 3. NO Allegation that the forensics dispute GZ's account.It's an embarassing document in a MURDER charge. Welcome to the crim justice system. It's ugly and imprecise, but decent folks like us rely on it to get the gangbangers off the street.

bunkerbuster

Rob: The most obvious evidence that Zimmerman lied is the witness who saw him on top of Martin.
I think I get your hope against hope that this story would fit the white power narrative, but I have to admit I'm a little surprised you're willing to remain in denial of what witnesses have said.

cboldt

-- Nothing in DeeDee's claims changes the fact that witnesses saw St. Trayvon(tm) on top of Zimmerman, slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. --


That's correct. Corey has ignored the testimony of any witness that has M getting over on Z.

Threadkiller

If I understand the affidavit correctly, Bung, the blood samples will be released for public scrutiny at the same time the Skittles and Iced Tea are released.

derwill

Fair enough, Brian. Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that what Z did in following M. was illegal, just a mistake in judgement. He'd done his duty as a neighborhood watchman by calling the police. Obviously in hindsight he would be world's better off, if he'd left it at that.

henry

A little O/T update from WI.

Judge Prosser moved that Judges Bradley and Abramson recuse themselves for his disciplinary hearing.

The WI Dems sued to get the fake Dems off the recall ballots. They are trying to force the Lt Gov and senators to face elections during the Dem Gov recall primary.

And Mother Jones has the Dem recall plan. They lose on union stuff, so they will push the war on women and the 2 year and still going John Doe probe of Walker (with no results but lots of leaks)

Rob Crawford

buub -- your star witness did not see anything until after the shot was fired.

And that's all I have to say to you ever again. Your "white power" bullshit is tiresome and disgusting, and I *KNOW* you lack the balls to say anything like that to someone's face.

Extraneus

Two things about that affidavit seem strange to me.

1. Even if Z started a fight with M, nevermind simply followed him - which is a pretty big IF based on what we've heard so far - he still had the right to shoot if he was on his back, unable to escape, and reasonably feared for his life or great bodily harm.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

2. I thought we learned that a 911 dispatcher's suggestion doesn't carry the force of law. So what if the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" and Z continued following M? She didn't even tell him not to follow M, and even if she did, so what?

How do either of these things add up to Z not acting in self defense?

cboldt

Scared M has a lead on Z, and is faster than Z. M is heading for home. Z catches the faster M before M gets home. It defies classical physics.

Enlightened

Correct me if I am wrong -

911 operator/dispatcher is not a "police dispatcher" and thereby does not have the authority an actual law enforcement officer has.

So was it an intentional misrepresentation for the affidavit to state GZ did not obey the "police dispatcher".

Or is the language on the document not that scrutinized?

MarkO

DeeDee could testify that she heard a voice say "I'm going to kill you, you black Motherf****r" followed by what she believed was the sound of something striking something else. She could then say that, to her, is sounded something like a hand strinking another hand. She could say she heard TM cry out, "Please don't shoot me."

After that, it's all credibility.

Brian

She can pull BS arguments against laypeople, but it's not going to fly against a capable adversary with a knowledgeable judge as the referee.

I know, and I agree.

Those are bridges that will be crossed later though. When Al Sharpton has left the building and Corey doesn't have to be the bad gal. The mean judge will do that.

Race riots averted.

Zimmerman gets off on a technicality. On that mean right-wing SYG "shoot" first law.

Do we have the track record on Corey and gun crimes?

Threadkiller

"I think I get your hope against hope that this story would fit the white Hispanic power narrative, but I have to admit I'm a little surprised you're willing to remain in denial of what witnesses have said. that Big Z is a democrat"

Dee Dum

I'm pretty sure that Z was on top of M, Z was beating M so hard that the freshly laid sod popped up and landed on Z's back so Z hit harder and the concrete flew up and hit Z on the back of the head.

That's the truff and just try to break me down on the stand cause I be smart. Wait, is Z or M my man? Ok, now where's my benjamins, crumpette?

Rob Crawford

It defies classical physics.

It was the quantum.

Alternatively: "Aliens".

cboldt

-- So what if the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" and Z continued following M? She didn't even tell him not to follow M, and even if she did, so what? --


Corey is using that to establish depraved mind. It is not relevant at all to any theory of self defense, but it is relevant to a theory of murder two.

MarkO

is=it. I have no real excuse, unlike Clarice.

Rob Crawford

How do either of these things add up to Z not acting in self defense?

And, in other Florida cases, the question of self defense came down to the instant before the trigger was pulled, not with previous conduct. I'm not thrilled with that particular aspect of their laws, but that's the law.

Brian

Obviously in hindsight he would be world's better off, if he'd left it at that.

Unless Trayvon was a rapist, in which case he would have wished he could have done more.

I don't think leaving the car with the information he had at the time was a bad decision. I think I would have done the same thing in his shoes.

The next neighborhood watch guy probably won't though, and a real criminal will be able to move unimpeded.

Rob Crawford

Race riots averted.

Remember, the Rodney King riots didn't start until the acquittal.

NK

cboldt-- sorry for bluntness but you're just flat wrong at 6:39. The State has charged 'depraved heart' murder, a reckless killing. They allege recklessness, and the only evidence they have of that is that GZ voluntarily got of his car and followed TMartin, and when the 911 operator realizes GZ has left his car and is following TMartin, the dispatcher asks GZ to return to his car and meet the officer. The State's entire case for 'reckless' murder or manslauhgter turns on GZ voluntarily following TMartin, note the affidavit alleging GZ 'diregarded' the dispatcher instruction, GZ's dad was adament to claim GZ didn't disregard, but the affidavit has to allege that, because that's the only thing they've got for 'reckless'. Leaving his car and folowing TMartin was the worst decision GZ made in his life.

DebinNC

Throwing a punch or making a move that can reasonably be viewed as going for a weapon are acts of provocation.

Maybe we have a twofer:
1) GZ claims he reached for his cellphone and TM decked him
2) GZ's reaching motion revealed to TM the gun at GZ's waist, and TM decked him to prevent being shot by a crazy stranger.

Rob Crawford

sorry for bluntness but you're just flat wrong at 6:39.

No, he's not.

MarkO

NK, I think the prosecution could simply argue that under the circumstances, Zimmerman could not reasonbly fear for his life and that the shooting was reckless. The idea that Zimmerman was following him shows a predisposition to engage him and when that happened, Zimmerman overreacted and shot him.

Rob Crawford

Maybe we have a twofer:

Except neither reaching for your phone nor inadvertently revealing your carry piece justifies assault and battery.

Rob Crawford

The idea that Zimmerman was following him shows a predisposition to engage him and when that happened, Zimmerman overreacted and shot him.

Except it leaves out the fact that Zimmerman was attacked.

rse

LUN is dershowitz on the affidavit and how irresponsible he believes corey has been.

Extraneus

The next neighborhood watch guy probably won't though, and a real criminal will be able to move unimpeded.

Well that's certainly one result of this whole thing, and it's probably already happened. Neighborhood watch has been neutered, and our lib friends are ecstatic over that. Why? I don't quite get that part yet. I'm guessing it has something to do with the watch guys not being unionized.

cboldt

-- cboldt-- sorry for bluntness but you're just flat wrong at 6:39. --

\No sweat, we're talking about two different things. My "clock starts at the end and looks backwards" was a reference to self defense, not murder.

Csnyder

cboldt, I brought up the doctor because I know a lot of them, and I can't picture any of them hospitalizing a teenager for being distraught without trying to ascertain what caused such trauma.

NK

MarkO-- the State's narrative will be GZ was a wannabe, a busybody who had no idea how to handle a potential burglary suspect. Once he called 911, and the dispatcher got his location to send the responding officer, instead of waiting for and acting as a witness for the officer (that's probably what community watch rules tell watchers in Florida)GZ stupidly and recklessly acted as a vigilante to trackdown the person he suspected while armed with a powerful handgun. when he caught up with the figure, out of his rage against burglars, GZ picked a fight and in that fight he shot TMartin --juat like GZ told the dispatcher. The figure was not a burglar, he was an unarmed kid who lived a few yards away. That's the State's case for murder. Leaving the car and telling the dispatcher that these 'fucking asshole' burglars get away is apparently their whole case for reckless. Ridiculous of course, no way you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

Extraneus

Dershowitz:

“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”
NK

cboldt-- OK got it.

cboldt

-- LUN is dershowitz on the affidavit and how irresponsible he believes corey has been. --


I'll have some of whatever he's smoking. How does he figure the affidavit rings entirely of self defense in favor of Zimmerman?

Some guy

“Meanwhile, I note the commenters here are still in denial of the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on top of Martin.”

But what about the eyewitness who say Zimmerman far away from the where the shooting take place?

In fact, several eyewitnesses and there’s even video of him being very far away from where the shooting took place.

Oh wait, that was when he was at the police station. So it was *after* the shooting and therefore isn’t of much value. Just like the eyewitness you keep coming back to who saw nothing until *after* the shooting. What is really sad, is this has been explained to you, yet you are in denial so you project that onto people who actually can grasp facts.

MarkO

Rob, I almost fully agree with your view of the existing facts, but facts and evidence can so often differ. I know Zimmerman will say he was attacked, but the prosecution can argue that it is an unreasonable excuse and that it is more likely than not that he attempted to detain TM and that led to the fight.

That is where the following can be used to draw an inference for argument. Maybe, maybe not.

cboldt

-- I can't picture any of them hospitalizing a teenager for being distraught without trying to ascertain what caused such trauma. --


I agree. My remark was just that doc likely wouldn't concern himself to the extent of figuring out if the kid has volunteered information to the police. Kids in b/c boyfriend was murdered - oh my God, that's awful ... and then get on with treatment.

Brian

Race riots averted.

Remember, the Rodney King riots didn't start until the acquittal.

Good point. Race riots averted..... For now...

It's sickening.

MarkO

NK. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a wonderfully slippery thing in the hands of a jury. OJ is exhibit A.

Paula

Dershowitz went on to strongly criticize Cory’s decision to move forward with the case against Zimmerman. “I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”

Paula

“But it’s worse than that,” said Dershowitz. “It’s irresponsible and unethical in not including material that favors the defendant.”

“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

MarkO

I'm with Dershowitz, but what of the judges who have to face rabid women in pink cowboy hats? Will I need my horse?

DebinNC

Would it be likely that if medical records indicated GZ was repeatedly pummelled we'd have heard about it? Is it possible that TM's only "attack" on GZ was a punch in the nose which landed him on his back with his head hitting hard once on the pavement? And the rest of the skirmish was a frantic fight for control of the gun that GZ had drawn in response to TM's one punch?

Ignatz

--How does he figure the affidavit rings entirely of self defense in favor of Zimmerman?--

I think he's saying even if it's true, none of it obviates a claim of self defense, which appears to be an accurate statement.

bagittagit

The only logical explaination that accounts for the SP's actions is she shooting for a plea-deal, hoping GZ will fold in the face of the # of yrs on the table with the implicit threat of assasination being held over his head. The only possible new evidence/bombshell that could emerge would be a ballistics report indicating that TM and GZ were further apart from one another than GZ indicated but you'd think we would have heard something like that by now.

Frau Steingehirn

'All the prosecutor has to do is call Trayvon's mother to the stand as an expert witness."
Followed by the father's *initial* statement that the voice was NOT his son's---which he later changed.

Appalled, why do you use the loaded word "stalking" when "following" would do? Zimmerman said he was trying to find the street name and lost the Martin youth for a while. Is stalking the term to be used for Neighborhood Watch diligence or police investigation of intruders in an area?

BB certainly picks the witness to suit his purpose. The initial witness(es) stated that the red jacket man was on the bottom. I haven't seen blood collected from a rainy sidewalk on any NCIS, CSI or Law & Order program yet. Have I missed it? Glad to learn something new if possible.

Ignatz

I would not be surprised if Corey is resigned to Zimmerman walking, or at least presumes he will, but figured the best way to spread oil on the troubled waters would be with some weak tea overcharge before he does.

PDinDetroit

Is it possible that TM's only "attack" on GZ was a punch in the nose which landed him on his back with his head hitting hard once on the pavement? And the rest of the skirmish was a frantic fight for control of the gun that GZ had drawn in response to TM's one punch?

As soon as someone attacks you like that and does not withdraw, the person attacked would be reasonable in assuming that the attack was not over and would be able to use Force to defend themselves.

cboldt

-- I think he's saying even if it's true, none of it obviates a claim of self defense, which appears to be an accurate statement. --


I agree with that conclusion - but it wasn't clear to me that he was getting there, that way.

PaulV

Reduced charge of walking in your own neighborhood while Hispanic?

jimmyk

Deb @7:15, there is a witness (John) who saw TM on top of GZ while GZ was calling for help.

I'm thinking this is one of the first unfortunate extensions of the hate crime concept to non-crimes. It's not a crime to follow someone and call 911 because you think he might be up to no good. But if it can be argued you did it because he was black, then you become criminally liable for all that ensues, even if nothing you did was illegal.

This is the start of the slippery slope of thought crime.

cboldt

I took Dersh's remark too literally, I suppose: "everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense." I didn't think to extend that to all the material that is not in the affidavit, that is the self defense claim flowing from being in the inferior position in the fight.

derwill

I'm starting to think the judge will dismiss. At which point the media will do a full court Wasilla press, going through his trash, demanding to see his emails, etc. trying to prove he's a racist Republican who ignored Justice For Trayvon by allowing that murdering white Hispanic to walk.

DebinNC

I think a reasonable person would think a punch would be justified if it came as the punchee was reaching toward his waist area where an exposed gun was holstered.

scott

Dershowitz also said, tellingly "A good judge will throw this out." Wonder if the good judge is listening? Is there a Judge assigned to this circus or will that be after arraingment? I would think Dershowitz's voice carries some weight even in dixie.

Extraneus

How does he figure the affidavit rings entirely of self defense in favor of Zimmerman?

What Ignatz said. I thought what Dershowitz meant was that Zimmerman doesn't have to argue with any of the points in the affidavit in order to claim self-defense because none of them address the key question of whether he reasonably believed he was in danger of death or great bodily harm, and his defense doesn't need to address "stand your ground" because his claim is that he couldn't retreat.

cboldt, I thought you made that point earlier, regarding Corey's lack of any reference to Zimmerman's situation at the time the gun was fired, because that's Zimmerman's responsibility to assert in his defense, and not the prosecutor's. Did I misconstrue your position?

Extraneus

Ooops, didn't see your 7:22. These threads are too fast for me.

DebinNC

Deb @7:15, there is a witness (John) who saw TM on top of GZ while GZ was calling for help.

I found John very credible, but I don't remember if he claimed TM was beating GZ or there was a frantic struggle with GZ begging for help. If GZ was beaten, producing a doctor's report confirming that would help him greatly.

Ignatz

--Reduced charge of walking in your own neighborhood while Hispanic?--

That makes me giggle, primarily because it's no longer ridiculous to contemplate such a law.

Extraneus

I know we have a lot of fans here.

Kumquat Arugula Salad with Currant-Walnut Vinaigrette

Extraneus

Sticking with the off-topic idea:

North Korea long-range missile test fails

pagar

If it has be posted already I haven't seen it.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

Pofarmer

Poster on another board who happens to be in South Florida, says there are race riots starting up in the schools. This is a mess, and the administration is directly responsible. Anybody else wanna bet Holder talked to what's her face courageous prosecutor?

Pofarmer

"She's going to argue that it's not self defense because he left his car after being advised not to. He escalated the encounter."

Yes, let's create a nation of pussy footing victims. Oh, right.

Pofarmer

Anybody else see this?

Property Crime Rate Comparison per 1,000 residents

National Median29.4

My chances of becoming a victim

in Sanford1 in 15(that would be 67 per 1000)

in Florida1 in 28


Violent Crime Comparisonper 1,000 residents

My chances of becoming a victim

in Sanford1 in 150

in Florida1 in 184

I think Sanford has a problem, allright.

cboldt

-- there are race riots starting up in the schools. --


Celebratory?

Pofarmer

"-- there are race riots starting up in the schools. --


Celebratory?.
"

I'm thinking a certain subset of students are feeling invincible and cocky, probably also knowing what actually probably happened, and thinking now that they can get away with it to. It will go from "Justice for Trayvon." to "Heh, I juss pulled a Trayvon Homey."

Fenderdeluxe

@Rob Crawford 6:15pm - I'm with you most of the way, but come on now with this 'Walking the same path...' stuff. That's completely removed from known context. Of course there's no law broken in just that. But in the larger context factoring in other events, I think it's pretty obvious he wasn't out on some moonlight stroll either. The minute he got out of that vehicle and followed him - with a gun - he escalated the incident. That's because it's at night and a reasonable person would or should know that in the event of meeting up with him, with each being a stranger to the other, that Martin might be scared too, act irrationally in the moment because of it, and somebody might end up getting shot. To put a cherry on top of all of this, I don't think there any solid witnesses that can tell us exactly what the heck happened. Now. Is the charge fair? No. But to my recollection Florida doesn't have involuntary manslaughter. And is your version plausable? Yes. But so is mine. He'll get off. None of this is solid and it shiould be pretty simple. Sure. But that doesn't make it right. And I'm not sure that we're better off as a society with so many of us having a seemingly cavalier attitude about the whole thing.

Ignatz

--And I'm not sure that we're better off as a society with so many of us having a seemingly cavalier attitude about the whole thing.--

Cavalier?
Some of us think it borders on cavalier to expect us to sit quietly locked in our SUVs and homes to prevent somebody from sucker punching us and using our ears to bounce our beans off the sidewalk.
Seems to me there is an extremely valuable lesson and consequence here that should have been reinforced rather than prosecuted;
You don't get to act like a gangster without some pretty serious consequences, including gettin your ass shot off.

DrJ

This is long, and behind the paywall at the WSJ. I've not seen this discussed here, so here goes:

Mark NeJame, the Florida attorney well-known for his representation of Tiger Woods, said in an interview on Thursday that he was asked to represent George Zimmerman about a month ago, but he declined to take the case because of time constraints.

On Wednesday, Zimmerman’s lawyers Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig announced they were stepping down, saying at a news conference that they haven’t heard from their client and that “has gone out on his own” without consulting them.

Afterward, NeJame said, he was again approached by a representative for Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. NeJame again declined, but he suggested five lawyers, including O’Mara, who was hired.

“On the top of my list was Mark O’Mara, who I like as a person, is a friend, and who I respect tremendously,” NeJeme said, noting that he had a waiver from Zimmerman to discuss the case.

NeJame (pictured) said all of the lawyers involved in the case must recognize the enormity of it.

“This case is about the tragic death of a young man, and whether the law permitted or excused Zimmerman’s involvement,” NeJame said. “Not only do we have to deal with the individual tragedy of the death, but there are important social issues involved in this.”

O’Mara, who has been practicing law for nearly three decades, has represented defendants in murder cases and drug cases, including several that have garnered headlines in Florida.

O’Mara is a legal analyst for the Orlando television station, where he has shared his thoughts on the high-profile Casey Anthony case, as well as the Martin case. The statements he has made as a legal expert are likely to foreshadow the defense he is beginning to build for Zimmerman.

On Tuesday night, on the eve of the charges and before he was announced as Zimmerman’s new lawyer, O’Mara told WKMG that he was surprised that Zimmerman’s former lawyers talked about the case publicly in a news conference after they had resigned their representation.

“If George Zimmerman came to me tomorrow and said, ‘I want you to represent me,’ I would look at (the press conference with Hal Uhrig) and say Mr. Uhrig identified a potential defense and he cemented what George Zimmerman can now say,” O’Mara told the station.

Zimmerman’s former lawyers could not be reached for comment.

MarkO

"Zimmerman’s former lawyers could not be reached for comment."

Now, that's news.

Fenderdeluxe

Honestly, yes Ignatz, Cavalier. I love this site, I never post but I read it. Tom is terrific. Soem of these posts are cavalier. And the older I get - with a profile of, pushing 50, suburban Reagan-Republican, and as WASPY as they come. Trust me, I'm no aging McGovern liberal - the coarser I see society becoming. It's about what we can get away with anymore versus what's right and wrong. I don't think that helps us.

narciso

I figured out, what is really behind this, there is no upside to Corey ruling for Zimmerman, and not charging , downside plenty.
from a recall like that Fernandez matter, to
the possibility forever slight, that the NBPP would target her, and if she had one of her
clerks look up Sharpton, she would feel much like Luigi Vecotti's marks.

Janet

“Not only do we have to deal with the individual tragedy of the death, but there are important social issues involved in this.”

bold mine. That's what gets me...why should Zimmerman or anyone have to be dragged into the "important social issues" business? Is that written anywhere in the law? "Important social issues"...what the hell is that?

Janet

Does Zimmerman have to be sacrificed...or even toyed with to appease the perpetually aggrieved race baiters? They are mad all the time & never satisfied. Give them some Pigford money & give Zimmerman a fair shake.

RattlerGator

Scott, I think I can safely say that no one give a good fat damn what Alan Dershowitz thinks.

Clarice, honestly, you really should buck up. Things aren't nearly as bad as you may think. And, contrary to many on this board, it doesn't sound like Mark NeJame believes there is unsupported craziness going on here.

M. Simon

Dersh cuts them a new one:

www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

Bruce

I don't see how this goes to trial. The Martin family will not want to go through discovery. I don't know if TM was slipping away or just sowing some youthful oats and had a bright future. The former will be easier to believe however.

If the judge doesn't dismiss on a preliminary motion for immunity by reason of self-defense, I don't see it not going to trial. Or, at least likely. I don't see Zimmerman in a position to plea bargain, unless they can give him time served. Esp. if his legal defense is paid for.

But, I think that a big part of it for the Martins is the wrongful death suit, which would have been barred if Corey hadn't filed charges, and will be if the judge throws it out as lacking probable cause to believe that it wasn't self defense.

I just don't see much relevance to their testimony at the criminal trial. Maybe the mother that it was her son screaming. But, that would be wide open for being discredited. Other than that, I would think that they would open themselves up to their son being raked over the coals for his apparent slide into gansta hood. Where did he get that gold grill? Not cheap. Was he really going to school? Routinely? Was he working? Were drugs involved? Dealing drugs to support his lifestyle? Burglary? Where did the money come from? Did he have an anger problem?

Just a lot of questions that I don't think they would want to answer. They might be willing to, to get to trial. But, it won't be pleasant.

Why the relevance (or potential for leading to admissible evidence)? For one thing, Martin is portrayed as an innocent. Was he? Could he have been casing out the houses? The dynamic, and the narrative, change if he wasn't the innocent, or at least there is a legitimate question about it. Neighborhood Watch member checking someone suspicious in an area where there has been a rash of burglaries, and stumble upon someone casing the area. Not much sympathy there for Martin.

Clarice

Bingo, narciso. Again, I think we hae to reconsider how much leeway we give prosecutors.

Jack is Back!

Finally, down from the mountain and WiFi! Yippee.

But stunned that Corey brought these charges. Wow! Totally misunderestimated her. My bet was she would do the total courageous.

I have no idea if what she believes is chargable by evidence that we haven't discussed but I am very surprised that she sees this differently than presented here. Unless she has infallibel testimony or evidence we have not seen, heard or discussed than this is a sacrificial lamb to racial justice and extortion. If so, very disappointed in her actions and acceptance of poitical expediency.

I see another Casey Anthony embarrassment for the State here.

Ignatz

--It's about what we can get away with anymore versus what's right and wrong.--

Concur.
I just happen to think shooting someone who is beating me senseless is not wrong.

I do think beating someone senseless is, even if the blighter did have the temerity to get out of his car.

And as far as I can see in the past it was easier to do what Zimmerman did and not be prosecuted so I'd say the pendulum has been swinging the wrong way for some time.

cboldt

Times has him down to 170#, his media-hound self-appointed ex-lawyers had him losing weight, and his booking sheet has him at 185#.

Another mystery, facts running contrary to classical physics. It would a heck of lot more entertaining if they'd tinker with his height, too.

scott

Scott, I think I can safely say that no one give a good fat damn what Alan Dershowitz thinks.

We shall see.

GMax

Au Contraire Dershowitz is a well known liberal law professor. While he and I disagree most of the time, he is not shy about abandoning the liberal establishment line when he disagrees. It is a big damn deal that he just pissed all over the prosecutor. He just called shameful behavior shameful. I for one think this good, fat damn or not.

Joan

Fenderdeluxe at 8.15: "Is the charge fair? No. But to my recollection Florida doesn't have involuntary manslaughter. And is your version plausable? Yes. But so is mine. He'll get off."
He'll get off?!! I beg to differ. Remember Scooter Libby? All the evidence pointed to an acquittal and he was found guilty. I'm afraid poor Zimmerman is in real trouble.

M. Simon

DDs call ended at 7:12. Several minutes (at least a minute) before the altercation started.

Tom Maguire
Having siad that, here's the thing - are we as a society really going to allow something like this to happen where a neighborhood watch member is out with a gun, he sees something, follows up on it, somebody ends up dead and he's ultimately just sent home? Are we really going to not enforece rule sets to that degree?

A good question. One might argue the scales of "justice" are not balanced even if Florida self-defense law gives GZim a pass.

GZim surely contributed something to a situation that ended horribly. If he truly feared for his life than the choice between pulling the trigger and a month (e.g.) in jail is easy.

The well known "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" would be supplemented by "a month in a cell beats eternity in a coffin."

And if that were the law, with exceptions for home defense and extreme mitigation on the street (unambiguous self-defense, e.g) I suspect people would feel better about a 30 day sentence for GZim as a statement that we value all life and encourage people to stay away from trouble.

But that is not the law, and now he is looking at life, which is crazy (barring new evidence, which I Now Decree to be the default position unless someone specifically says "Even in the presence of new evidence..."

Bruce

I still like the theory that Corey was both grandstanding, and pandering for the liberal/Black vote, while making sure that she could not be held responsible for parts of Florida burning if she didn't indict. Not good for reelection.

But, that also implies, I think, that she is punting to the judge to make the actual immunity decision. Not only does it delay the violence, but there may be less of it, if the bad news is from a theoretically neutral, respected, party.

I am troubled by the fact that she didn't address the self-defense issue, esp. since, if valid, that should have barred her charging Zimmerman. As I read the statute, I think that she should have needed probable cause to believe that the killing was not in self-defense.

One reason that I think that she may have evidence to negate Zimmerman's self-defense claim, is that absent that, I think that she may be facing ethics issues. Here, in AZ, a former elected county attorney, and two of his assistants were disbarred this week for, among other things, filing charges that they knew lacked probable cause. I think that given Florida self-defense law, ignoring that overcoming immunity requires probable cause to negate self-defense, and that self-defense has been a central issue here since the police arrived on the scene, a failure to consider and be able to show probable cause would be verging on filing charges that the prosecutor knew were not warranted (notably, some of the grounds for disbarment in AZ upheld were that the prosecutors knew that the statute of limitations had run on some of the charges filed - and that, too, is an affirmative defense).

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

Well gosh, fenderdeluxe, you should have made it clear in your first comment that you were a long-time reader who is a concerned Christian conservative and that you've voted for every Republican since Lincoln?

Then everyone here would have magically accepted your laughable "do we really want rampaging klansmen like Zimmerman to get away with shooting poor black toddlers in the back of the head for just sitting on their mama's porch" hypothetical.

Pofarmer

You don't get to act like a gangster without some pretty serious consequences, including gettin your ass shot off.'"

I'm with Itnatz 143%.

Threadkiller

I heard Gingrich is no longer pleased with Fox.

Could this be why?
http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2012/04/fox-news-probes-tim-tebows-eligibility.html#comment-form

narciso

One cannot help be jaundiced from this experience, about the practice of law. and the trial hasn't even started yeet, we may have that to look forward to, This is from the perspective of an observer, for those like Jim Rh, Clarice, Danube (well the parallels to TRansylvania are probably of note)who are longtime members of the bar,
I can't imagine what this looks like.

bunkerbuster

Nifong? OJ? Libby?
Mere scraps of precedent and context. Maybe the bigger-picture context is "Curveball,'' Ahmad Chalabi and "proof" of WMD in Iraq.
Recall that it was simply not possible to doubt whether Iraq had WMD without identity conservatives accusing you of being a lying, treasonous America hater.
Recall that long after it was clear there were no WMD, wingnuts kept insisting they were there, since fact and reason wasn't the basis for their view in the first place. I would guess many JOMers still believe Fox News "proved" the WMD were hidden away somewhere under the money from Bush's tax cuts.
Cheney-Bush's lies about WMD led to a massive slaughter of innocent Iraqis and that's the core of the tragedy, but let's not forget that they also destroyed the Republican party as we knew it.
The GOP, as we knew it, had a huge ace up its sleeve known as the "we hate the swarthy dictator more than you do" fear card. And they used that fear card to trump a sagging economy, foreign policy disasters one after the other and so on right up until Bush II screwed the pooch by taking it so very far over the top with the WMD lies.
Maybe the Martin murder is a similar moment for wingnut America. Maybe the insane idea that a fair trial is mob justice is the breeze that brings down the whole house of cards on white-power politics. The idea that the killing of an unarmed Afro-American teenager requires only minimal investigation, since the shooter claimed self-defense, may just be the last hurrah for identity conservatives.

Rick Ballard

cboldt,

How far, IYO, should the clock run backwards from the shot which marked Martin's sudden and unexpected departure from this vale of tears in order to solidify self-defense? There is a 911 call where the shot is heard at 45 seconds. During the 45 seconds the screams for help are clearly discernible and, concurrently, the witness "John" has Zimmerman under Martin. Officer Smith's report of the incident begins within minutes of the incident, has Zimmerman bleeding from his nose and head and provides Zimmerman's first account of having yelled for help, which he made to the EMT treating his wounds.

Does the clock need to run back very much further than the 45 seconds?

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