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April 12, 2012

Comments

boatbuilder

I am truly underwhelmed. They are going with Mom and the girlfriend. Perhaps Corey's over the top statements about the sweet Martin family and her prayers for and with them were intended to soften the backlash in "the community" when the judge dismisses the case or the gaping holes in the case are exposed during the trial and Zimmerman is acquitted.

And am I misremembering, or did Zimmerman say on the 911 call: "he's walking right toward me now" or something to that effect? (I will go check myself). Doesn't that seem to indicate that Zim was walking away--or had at least stopped following?

Some guy

Keep fanning the Martin flames bunkerbaby, keep hope alive. Really. Keep it up, loud and proud.

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

Your about 10 years late trying to spread the Bush lied!!!!!!!! bullshit, bunkerbitch.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WMD'S AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? Right!!!

From Snopes.

Status: True.

boatbuilder

Bubu--what were you, 9 years old when the Clinton administration ended? Did history begin in March 2003?

DrJ

may just be the last hurrah for identity conservatives.

Both of them? Oh no!

Pofarmer

"And the older I get - with a profile of, pushing 50, suburban Reagan-Republican, and as WASPY as they come. Trust me, I'm no aging McGovern liberal - the coarser I see society becoming. It's about what we can get away with anymore versus what's right and wrong. I don't think that helps us. "

Do you carry a purse?

Rob Crawford

DebinNC:

I think a reasonable person would think a punch would be justified if it came as the punchee was reaching toward his waist area where an exposed gun was holstered.

There was no exposed gun.

Listen, Zimmerman was going to the store. He was carrying CONCEALED. At the store, he would have had to get his wallet out, or pull his keys from his pocket -- acts that involve reaching towards his waste. If that would have exposed his firearm, he would have been violating his CCW -- not just risking losing his permit, but there have been horrible cases where inadvertent exposure has resulted in the carrier's death.

Beyond that, is slugging an armed man in the face a survival-oriented act? Wouldn't it make more sense to collapse on the ground and curl up into a ball?

And, on the gripping hand, inadvertent exposure is a Bad Thing, but assault and battery is Worse.

Rob Crawford

Kumquat Arugula Salad with Currant-Walnut Vinaigrette

What team does he play for?

Rob Crawford

bold mine. That's what gets me...why should Zimmerman or anyone have to be dragged into the "important social issues" business? Is that written anywhere in the law? "Important social issues"...what the hell is that?

Whatever they are, they must be important to trump individual liberty and civil rights.

Pofarmer

This is from a guy that lives and works in the area.

"What is the real sad part of the whole situation is George Zimmerman was trying to protect the community from thieves. Trayvon Martin came up from behind Zimmerman and attacked him as he was returning to his vehicle as directed by the 911 dispatcher when he called in about a suspicious looking character. NBC doctored the 911 call and blew the whole thing out of proportion. Trayvon was a problem child, defiantly no choir boy and he’s a gang banger from Miami. The old saying “don’t judge me until you’ve walked in my shoes” needs to apply here. The taxpaying public is fed up with the non-taxpaying sector robbing, stealing and murdering the working class and store keepers. It’s almost a weekly event of a store keeper getting shot here. 2 weeks ago a black woman sore owner was robbed at gun point and she pulled out here pistol and blew another young black kid away; I didn’t hear much news media about that. An unarmed white store owner friend of mine was murdered around Christmas by a black youth and there was very little news media about that. I can go on and on with the same story over and over again. Until you guys in the Midwest come down here and live with the hoodlums don’t be judging Zimmerman for his actions as a gun toting wantta be cop. The other popular method of violence here with the youth is one will start something and ten more will join in the fist fight beating the victim to into a coma or death"

Soylent Red

What team does he play for?

Clearly not the one I'm playing for.

Ignatz

Unlike the faux Ben Franklin who has mercifully disappeared, I find myself warming up to No Limit.

Threadkiller

Almost an infommercial:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/m-do_it_yourself_proof_of_the_obama_birth_certificate_fraud.html

Zoom in camera guy, let's do this in real time.

Threadkiller

Didn't the mom trademark "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA"?

Rob Crawford

Pofarmer -- I understand the guy's frustration, but that last bit -- the "knockout game" -- is happening in the midwest, too.

Jim Ryan

Didn't the mom trademark "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA"?

I've seen the sweathshirts and tee shirts already. They look like Aeropostale apparel.

Pofarmer

"I understand the guy's frustration, but that last bit -- the "knockout game" -- is happening in the midwest, too."

Never said it wasn't.

Janet

OT story update at Drudge - "UPDATE: No charges for smoking woman who stripped naked at Denver airport..."

She does look a little like me! Hah! A bit heavier, but not much!
I'm kinda relieved to hear this...gonna be on a long flight Saturday. Ya never know... :(

jack moss

Linked you Tom. Good analysis. Got a couple of people in Sanford digging up what they can about how Corey conducted the investigation. Cheers. http://macsmind.com/wordpress/2012/04/zimmerman-affidavit-analysis-based-charge-solely-on-martins-call-with-girlfriend-on-cell-phone/

Rob Crawford

Ya know, Pofarmer, maybe instead of PSA's about bullying, they should make some that say "If you punch someone, don't be surprised if they shoot you. That's not racism, it's self-defense. The more you know..."

Farmer Jack

"Until you guys in the Midwest come down here and live with the hoodlums..."

Tell that person to feel free to come on up to Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Gary or Cleveland if they are looking for a break from the hoodlums. All of those cities have higher crime rates than any city in FL. Hoodlums are nationwide. Luckily most cities are now allowing citizens a chance to defend themselves with conceal carry and SYG protections. Well most cities except the ones mentioned above. In those cities, the hoodlums are thriving.

Clarice

If you're leaving from Dulles be my guest..rudest bunch of screeners in the country.

Pofarmer

Rob Crawford. I like it.

Threadkiller

I understand that carrying a monkey god in your pocket allows you to bypass TSA.

DrJ

Agreed Clarice, but some of them are OK when the throngs subside. That's not a defense of them, but the crowds that pass through Dulles are staggering.

narciso

Andrew was quite Prophetic;


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/12/At-CPAC-Breitbart-Predicted-What-Left-Media-Are-Doing-in-Trayvon-Case

Redbrow

bunkerbuster - We do not know what forensic evidence was taken yet.

Also, if you recall it was a rainy night and the wet sidewalk is not an ideal environment for preserving such evidence.

And what of the witnessES who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?

Soylent Red

"If you punch someone, don't be surprised if they shoot you. That's not racism, it's self-defense. The more you know..."

They could have Timothy Olyphant do them.

Ike

The witness who said that Zimmerman was on top of Martin was describing the scene right after the shot; Martin was dead at that point. Even assuming that police and media etc have all summarized that witness' testimony accurately, it doesn't go to prove or disprove a self-defense claim. There may not have been hair and blood samples to collect; blood, maybe, hair unlikely, since Zimmerman wasn't hospitalized. Enough force to take off hair is going to give a person a concussion, eyes not tracking and pupils dialating unevenly and all that. Same response to pieces of sidewalk only more so. In a contest of skull versus concrete, concrete wins every time; in other words, Zimmerman would likely have been taken away in an ambulance on a stretcher had their been pieces of concrete in or on his head. I think you see too many movies and/or haven't had enough real life experiences with violence.

As far as 'profiling' is concerned, when the last eight burglars in the neighborhood were young, male and black, and did the deed after dark, I'd say that Zimmerman had good reason to suspect a young, black male who he didn't recognize walking around the area after dark.

There either are medical records of Zimmerman being treated for a minor head wound and an injury to his face and/or nose or there are not. If there are, that pretty well establishes the self-defense issue. Cell phone calls to his girlfriend, late-viewing witnesses, whatever; if his face and back of his head were injured in the event, it is more likely than not that Martin attacked Zimmerman. Don't forget the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk.

Old Soldier

To be precise, "struggle ensued" is the active voice. However, the grammatical subjects of the preceding narrative do shift from two human actors to a single, abstract "struggle," which ensues.

Truly enough, this shift indicates an ellipses of who did what to whom, and as a defense attorney, I would bore into this ellipsis with everything I could bring to bear on it. It means the prosecution does cannot say what actually occurred let alone prove it.

Pofarmer

"Though Breitbart could not have anticipated the tragic death of Trayvon Martin--and the regrettable race-baiting that followed--his prediction came true, as Sharpton and MSNBC have been central to the fabrication of false racism charges in the Martin case. Touré and the mainstream media have followed along."

He didn't have to predict the tragic death of Trayvon Martin, it could have been anyone.

narciso

Well Sharpton is cynical, but Toure and co, are just insane, the Mogatu expression comes to mind.

Clarice

Legal Insurrection finds the affidavit void of any claim of GZ racism:

"Legal Insurrection

CNN used three different audio experts to analyze the tape, but one of whom found “f-ing coons,” another “f-ing cold,” and another “f-ing punks.”
In the Affidavit of Probable Cause, which just was made available, State of Florida investigators swore under oath that that Zimmerman used the term “f-ing punks”:

For the investigators to make such a factual assertion under oath in such an important document certainly means the prosecution has conducted its own analysis and has concluded that the term “coons” was not used.
There is nothing else in the affidavit to indicate racial motivation, although there is a cryptic reference that Martin “was profiled by Zimmerman,” although what type of profiling is not specified."

Janet

I understand that carrying a monkey god in your pocket allows you to bypass TSA.

You're a little slow tonight, TK. I'm not gonna have a pocket.

Jim Ryan

To be precise, "struggle ensued" is the active voice.

Old Soldier wins the Richard Mitchell Catch of the Month award. The prize is that link to chapter one of Less Than Words Can Say: "The Worm in the Brain".

Clarice

Dr J, The most obnoxious screener I had at Dulles was on a practically empty of passengers day.

Soylent Red

Enough force to take off hair is going to give a person a concussion, eyes not tracking and pupils dialating unevenly and all that. Same response to pieces of sidewalk only more so. In a contest of skull versus concrete, concrete wins every time; in other words, Zimmerman would likely have been taken away in an ambulance on a stretcher had their been pieces of concrete in or on his head. I think you see too many movies and/or haven't had enough real life experiences with violence.

I've hit, or had my head beat, against pavement a few times in my life, once against a curb for about thirty seconds. I walked away every time, with all my hair, never with concrete in my scalp, and only a little confused and bloody.

With the proper amount of fear/rage/adrenaline/drugs people can function pretty well after some frightening head trauma, and you are correct that the kind of head injury that embeds stuff into bone or scalp is significant enough that you'd probably die from it.

rse

Help us all if "profiling" is answering the question asked by a dispatcher accurately.

Fenderdeluxe

@Tom 9:03pm - Tom, I'm honored to be quoted, sincerely, big fan, and I get your point. What he's facing is crazy, considering, if I'm recalling correctly, Florida's lack of a manslaughter distinction. But that's as it stands and he got out of the vehicle with a gun, at night... there's nowhere else, IMO, to go with this. Shrugging our shoulders is the alternative and I just don't see how that is appropriate.

@pofarmer 9:23pm - I laughed out loud. No, but one might think so, I suppose.

@NO_Limit 9:05am - Well, not since Lincoln, but pretty much yeah, every one. Spector, once, was the exception. I may have been hung over that day. As for the Klansman stuff, come on now, I don't think I'm saying that...

fdcol63

Enlightened @ 6:45 PM:

" ... Correct me if I am wrong -

911 operator/dispatcher is not a "police dispatcher" and thereby does not have the authority an actual law enforcement officer has. ...

I'm not sure how SPD is structured, so they may be different, but I was a "police dispatcher / 911 operator" for 5 years in Tallahassee. My actual job title was "Police Communications Operator" and then "Public Safety Communications Officer".

We were considered "police dispatchers" and were uniformed .... even had badges.

But we were non-sworn personnel, and none of our "instructions" were ever considered legally binding.

Sworn officers would have laughed if we thought so highly of ourselves.

DrJ

Sorry to hear it, Clarice.

Once I went to Dulles to return home, and went through TSA, and the lines were packed. They were surly. Once through, I looked on the board for my flight, and it wasn't there.

So I went to the helpful traveler's aid station, and the person staffing the booth tried to find it. The computer was down. People didn't answer the telephone.

Finally she got through, and found that my flight was from Reagan National instead of Dulles. I went to the wrong airport!

So I padded my way out of security, to the United counter, who issued me an exchange ticket without hassle. I trudged back down to TSA, which now was nearly deserted. The fellow and I joked about what just happened. He mentioned a traveler who had even a worse mistake (which I don't recall at the moment) and essentially he waved me through.

The interesting thing is that TSA let someone through who had the wrong ticket. Good job, TSA!

bgates

Rather than searching for nanofragments of cement etc, how about they tell us where the bullet was.

If the cops at the scene found it in the middle of a bloody spot where the struggle was, it was probably fired down into Trayvon's chest.

If they found it downrange somewhere, it was probably fired up.

(I'm assuming there was an exit wound, based on NBC reporting that Trayvon was 6-1 106 lbs and Zimmerman was carrying a gun from the main battery of the USS Missouri.)

bgates

he got out of the vehicle with a gun, at night

Not just a vehicle - an SUV.

Strawman Cometh

In other news, Mr. Priebus is over the target.

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

But that's as it stands and he got out of the vehicle with a gun, at night... there's nowhere else, IMO, to go with this.

All real conservatives agree that CCW permits should only allow you to carrying while inside your vehicle and during daylight hours only.

Porchlight

Dr J, The most obnoxious screener I had at Dulles was on a practically empty of passengers day.

Probably because his/her manager scheduled it that way. That's how bureaucrats deal with problem employees (rather than fire them, which often they can't even when they want to).

The best employees are scheduled for the busiest times.

Melinda Romanoff

bgates-

Those 16 inchers will cause some real damage, if not concealed properly.

And the gas wasted.

I just hope this comes even close to a fair trial, and IANAL, for those who might be confused.

Like bunkerfluster or CorkyDave.

Pofarmer

"But that's as it stands and he got out of the vehicle with a gun, at night... there's nowhere else, IMO, to go with this. Shrugging our shoulders is the alternative and I just don't see how that is appropriate. "

Why the narrowing in on the gun? I carry a gun almost all the time. So?

Melinda Romanoff

Po-

Not in polite company, you know?

[Catching on to the game yet?]

Jim Ryan

Zimmerman hunted down and executed a black boy because of his race.

Free market economics and tax cuts have long ago been proven not to work, yet the GOP continues to stand by them, whereas progressives move on to fresher more viable concepts of government.

The planet is warming because of human beings and we need to go green to stop this.

Sarah Palin and George Bush are very stupid, and Barack Obama is very smart.

Conservatives don't care about the poor but would leave them to die, a la social Darwinism, whereas liberals care about the poor and help them.

If Israel would only treat the Palestinians justly and humanely for once, there would be peace in the Middle East.

Ann Romney never worked a day in her life, whereas Michelle Obama had a bonafide job at a Chicago hospital.

Etc. Etc. Etc. There are thousands of these. Once can list them indefinitely with ease.

willem

What of the 911 dispatcher's comment "We don't need you to do that" in response to Zimmerman wanting to not lose line of sight "watching" for the very thing he was there to watch for?

One could take this as a formal admonishment by the 911 operator to allow the observed party to drift away and break line of sight.

The more likely inference is 911 was posing a liability boundary; i.e. "WE don't need you to do that". In this construct the 911 operator is being institutionally defensive and also removing themselves as a potential reason for Z to preserve line of site. Essentially it's "don't do that on our account - we don't need you to do that."

Apologies if I missed a directive by 911 ordering him to cease line of sight; to cease inquiry; to abandon the observation or to withdraw altogether to another location. I recall no such directive.

If I am wrong and such an order was indeed given to Z by the 911 operator, from what authority did it arise? What law would Z be breaking?

We forget Z was there in a formal trustee capacity of sorts; he was there for the requisite and intended purpose to observe and report potential threats to the residents of the said community. This implies there was some formal training involved in neighborhood watch service. The multiple burglaries since the first of the year were excessive for the size of that gated community.

This raises another series of questions.

-- What number of burglaries occurred in the prior three years?

-- When did the girlfriend of Trayvon's father move into the subject apartment?

-- When did the woman become the girlfriend of Trayvon's father?

-- When did Trayvon begin visiting or staying with the father's girlfriend?

-- What is the relationship between these dates and the burglaries of record?

-- On the night Trayvon was killed, where was his father? And where was his girlfriend?

-- In the commotion following the shooting, when did the girlfriend come forward?

It's somewhat cynical to ask these questions, but if there was a surge in burglaries over the last year and such coincides with the moving in of the father's girlfriend and the stay overs by Travon, Z may have been more clairvoyant than he himself realized.

I have read different things, but 18 burglaries since Jan 1 is what I recall was the conclusive number. This seems way too high for such a focused period of time; it points to someone with a comparative advantage targeting the neighborhood and the neighbors for burglary --- someone with a place nearby into which they could evaporate with defendable credence, easily hiding the stolen stash in a known and safe cubby within moments of entering the safe harbor with the burgled booty.

But the facts may show the speculations above to be irrelevant to the matter of M and prosecution of Z.

Fenderdeluxe

Not sure what the word is on it from real conservatives NO_LIMIT but here's a CCW FAQ summary from the State of Florida:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Didn't see anything in there about 'inside your vehicle' or 'daylight hours.' I'll keep checking.

Melinda Romanoff

Jim-

Can I have some more paper, please? (Cosby reference)

M. Simon

But that's as it stands and he got out of the vehicle with a gun, at night

He was coming back from the store. Is it now unsafe to get out of your vehicle at night while carrying?

M. Simon

bgates,

Zimmerman was carrying a gun from the main battery of the USS Missouri.

Lulz. Better than the 3" popguns we had on the Bainbridge.

M. Simon

On another site looking into the "girlfriend" some one pointed out that "boyfriend" may have another meaning in context. Esp. given her taste in shoes.

I do not think they want this case to go to trial. The Martins et. al. may have a serious chance of making Mike Nifong look good.

Holger

Posted by: bunkerbuster

The Witness you are talking about is Mary Cutcher who saw nothing until after the shot was fired.

And there is a witness who saw the fight and says Zimmerman was getting pummeled into the ground.

Whom do you believe? Someone who didn't see the fight, doesn't claim there was a fight and then makes assumptions on the events preceding the gun-shot on the basis of what she saw only after the fact? Or someone who infact saw the fight and saw Zimmerman getting pummeled?

Clarice

I think a daily show 24/7 from now to Nov 6 featuring Mika, Behar , Matthews ,Hilary and Debbie W S would be just the ticket.

Pofarmer

This game is extremely dangerous, Mel. You almost got another call when I heard holder say he was looking out for any civil rights violations.

Rich

"Zimmerman confronted Martin"

The whole question of the case revolves around this very instant and what resulted and this is stated as fact? Witness?

No mention of the witness claiming Trayvon was on top, nor Zimmerman's injuries?

Regarding identification of the voice yelling help, I thought the father has admitted to saying it wasn't Trayvon? Later to say he thought it was after the recording had been cleaned up.

Clarice

Niters. Looking forward to another hundred threads tomorrow unless TM takes my advice and eats a doughnut to slow down. XOXO

narciso

That would violate Geneva, Vienna and some yet to be named diplomatic protocol, plus
it would draw down all available stocks of ipecac.

Melinda Romanoff

Po-

I hang out with determined, life-long Democrats who hunt. They expect to declare massive thefts of weapons in the near future.

How 1,500 (or so) cased,long guns were stolen from my locked, parked, and unmolested sedan, I have no idea.

If they knew the progs were about to turn on them they would lay them flat. They be Rick's muddle. I'm workin' on 'em, slowly. This is a generational shift for them.

narciso

Speaking of which Mortimer Adler sighed with
Goolsbee's Journal Op ED, that the SPR is too full.

Pofarmer

"On another site looking into the "girlfriend" some one pointed out that "boyfriend" may have another meaning in context. Esp. given her taste in shoes."

You're gonna have to be more blunt.

fdcol63

Willem, from my own experience as a dispatcher, while I can't completely discount the "we don't need you to do that" statement as some kind of liability disclaimer - either a personal one for the dispatcher or an institutional one for the agency, I took it as the dispatcher just relaying an informational message. I don't think it was intended to "order" GZ to stay in his vehicle.

I think the dispatcher was simply saying, "you don't need to do that, since it's raining. The officer will be there soon and he'll check it out."

Usually in most cases like this, an officer would arrive on scene, drive through the area to see if he or she could locate the suspicious person(s) with the info they already had from dispatch, and then make contact with the complainant if the complainant wanted contact.

The officer would not have driven directly to GZ.

Jim,MtnViewCA,USA

Clarice--sleep well and best wishes for that pinched nerve calming down quickly.

Melinda Romanoff

narciso-

The SPR is a military depot.

Only one person can turn that spigot.

scott

Nejame on Anderson Cooper tonight alluded to the possiblity of the charges being dismissed at arraingment for being so weak. I think his voice at least, if not Dershowitz, would be heard in Florida legal circles. I've yet to hear anyone say the prosecutions case is f***in' brilliant but the day is young...

M. Simon

The witness who said that Zimmerman was on top of Martin was describing the scene right after the shot;

Nope right before the shot. The witness was running to call 911.

M. Simon

"On another site looking into the "girlfriend" some one pointed out that "boyfriend" may have another meaning in context. Esp. given her taste in shoes."

You're gonna have to be more blunt.

Boyfriend is generic for "John". She had a taste for $500 shoes.

To be blunt without being crude: she is either a gold digger or a working girl. Either way Tray was going to need a LOT of long green.

Rob Crawford

Nope right before the shot. The witness was running to call 911.

No, the original comment was right. The witness BEFORE the shot saw Martin on top. The witness AFTER the shot saw Zimmerman on top.

Rob Crawford

Either way Tray was going to need a LOT of long green.

From what I read, he had a steady job doing yard work. Lots of people talking to him about weeds.

Pofarmer

All these witnesses running to call 911. Profiles in courage.

Some guy

All these witnesses running to call 911. Profiles in courage.

I didn’t know this until reading some comments here and elsewhere, but apparently, this is the “responsible” thing to do. Actually getting involved, taking any kind of personal risk for your neighbors, is “irresponsible” and de facto leads to tragedy.

All these years I’ve been doing it all wrong, and I guess I’m just lucky that I haven’t gotten the jail time I deserve.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

In retrospect, given the need for a speedy resolution by the Special Prosecutor, a charge was inevitable. Some threads back, I opined that if she no billed the case, she would have had to file a public report exonerating GZ that was essentially bulletproof. That is a job that even the most skilled prosecutor are not equipped to do.

Had she exonerated GZ without a tightly reasoned defense scenario backed up with incontrovertible evidence, she would have been mercilessly flyspecked and probably caused a Rodney King scenario.

I think she made a fairly rational decision to leave GZ's defense to his defense counsel.

That said, I concur with Dershowitz's opinion that the charging affidavit is borderline bad faith. And the smarmy comments designed to ingratiate herself with the Martins, the Sharptons, the Holders and the Jacksons were, IMO, over the top and has significantly impaired her appearance of objectivity and impartiality.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

Sorry for the shaky grammar. I am really tired.

 chuckatpdo

I think we now know why they skipped the grand jury - they were uncertain of their ability to indict a spam sandwich...

Charles

Minor point but "A struggle ensued" is NOT the passive voice. "Ensue" is an intransitive verb and can't be used in the passive voice. One can't say, for example, "a struggle was ensued."

Some guy

Minor point but "A struggle ensued" is NOT the passive voice. "Ensue" is an intransitive verb and can't be used in the passive voice. One can't say, for example, "a struggle was ensued."

The little known etymology of ensue is from the Latin, "crumpus ensueus" which roughly translates to 'chaser of panel vans with flashing lights'.

dk70

"A good judge will throw this out." Wonder if the good judge is listening? Is there a Judge assigned to this circus or will that be after arraingment?

Judge Larry Seidlin

cop

A police dispatcher is a civilian employee and has no more authority to tell you what to do than the janitor. They are paid to take calls and dispatch cars, they are not police officers and have no police powers.

Adjoran

It seems a weak case, if this is all she has. But I cannot imagine that forensic evidence refuting GZ's story could possibly be kept secret.

I believe none of GZ's statements made it into the affidavit because they are all hearsay. What you tell the cops can be used AGAINST you, as a statement against penal interest exception to the hearsay rule, but exculpatory information provided verbally to the police cannot be used.

Once again, never ever ever ever talk to the police, period.

Ruth Takahashi

What kind of DA takes the words of a telephone "witness" over an eye witness?

Answer: Mike Nifong in drag...aka Angela Corey

Linda Seebach

The sentence "a struggle ensued" is not in the passive voice. In fact the verb "ensued," being intransitive, does not even have a passive equivalent. There's no direct object to move into the subject position.

Active: Maguire misused a grammatical term.
Passive: A grammatical term was misused by Maguire.

Active intransitive: Maguire goofed.
Impossible: ??? was goofed by Maguire.

MJW

What you tell the cops can be used AGAINST you, as a statement against penal interest exception to the hearsay rule, but exculpatory information provided verbally to the police cannot be used.

That's true, though if Zimmerman testifies his prior consistent statements can be used to rebut an attempt to impeach his testimony by suggesting it was recently concocted or has changed.

I noticed some discussion of whether Martin's girlfriend can be deposed by the defense. I'm not sure whether she can be or not. There are three categories of witnesses in Florida criminal procedure:

Category A. These witnesses shall include (1) eye witnesses, (2) alibi witnesses and rebuttal to alibi witnesses, (3) witnesses who were present when a recorded or unrecorded statement was taken from or made by a defendant or codefendant, which shall be separately identified within this category, (4) investigating officers, (5) witnesses known by the prosecutor to have any material information that tends to negate the guilt of the defendant as to any offense charged, (6) child hearsay witnesses, and (7) expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae or who are going to testify to test results or give opinions that will have to meet the test set forth in Frye v. United States, 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir. 1923).
(ii) Category B. All witnesses not listed in either Category A or Category C.
(iii) Category C. All witnesses who performed only ministerial functions or whom the prosecutor does not intend to call at trial and whose involvement with and knowledge of the case is fully set out in a police report or other statement furnished to the defense.

Category A witnesses can always be deposed; Category B can only be deposed upon leave of the court; Category C can't be deposed. The prosecutor must provide a list of witnesses in each category. The gf is either a Category A or Category B witness, but which is she? Does "eye witness" only apply to a witness who actually saw the event, or is it general enough to include all who observed the events, by whatever sense, while they were occurring? In any case, I believe a reasonable judge would allow a deposition, since the intent of the law seems to clearly encompass ear as well as eye witnesses.

I think the gf could probably testify as to what Martin told her on the phone under the "present sense impression" exception to the hearsay rule.

M. Simon

Macsmind on the girlfriend's phone call

Very good evisceration of the Prosecutor's case.

abad man

To me this case boils down to the advice I would give my sons.

It's hard to get shot in the chest walking away from a fight.

Danube of Thought

If the author of that affidavit were to attempt to make those statements as testimony on the stand, he would be absolutely obliterated on cross.

Running behind on these threads; will try to catch up today. Spent yeaterday in the lovely town of Salzburg. Saw Mozart's birthplace and his residence.

Danube of Thought

"I note the commenters here are still in denial of the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on top of Martin."

Bubu is still in denial of the fact that this observation was made after Martin was dead.

Mark Taylor

"A struggle ensued..." is not passive voice.

As Wikipedia's entry explains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_passive_voice), "the English passive voice is formed with an auxiliary verb (usually be or get) plus a participle (usually the past participle) of a transitive verb."

In any event, it seems appropriate here to have written "a struggle ensued," since it isn't known who started it.

Extraneus

Why does the affidavit say that Zimmerman followed because he "falsely assumed" that Martin was going to commit a crime? How do the police or the prosecutor know what Martin was or wasn't going to do that night?

Barbara

Some Guy @2:41AM - "crumpus ensueus" which roughly translates to 'chaser of panel vans with flashing lights'.

ROFLOL!

Derek Farmer

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man...I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

This is what Trayvon't GF told lawyers. Seriously, how does she know he "put his hoodie on" ?

MJW

As others have mentioned, the affidavit says the 911 operator "instructed Zimmerman not to do that" even though he actually said "we don't need you to do that." It may seem like a small point, but I find it absolutely amazing. "We don't need you to do that" can mean a number of things from "that really isn't necessary" to "that's a real bad idea." What it isn't is an "instruction." To me, that statement in the affidavit is dishonest.

MJW

He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on.

Why does he the react to being watched by putting on his hoodie? Maybe it's obvious, but I don't see how putting on a hoodie helps him deal with being watched.

BlahBlahBlah

I'm sorry if this gets covered later - so many posts and all, havent read each yet - but this just gets to me big time

"It's just that when he follows Martin... at night...

How did he follow Martin? Or more precisely, How was he even able to follow Martin?

We're talking like maybe 70 feet here, and around 3 mins worth of time

If you have 3 minutes to travel 70 feet to safety from someone who supposedly scares you, yet you somehow end up in a fight with a guy a stones throw from his car, aren't you the problem here?

If Martin didnt want a confrontation, Martin could have gone home - he didnt

Zimmerman was protecting his neighborhood - what was Martin protecting by refusing to remove himself from the situation?

Martin could have ended the situation in many ways. 1) He could have gone home 2) He could have respectfully addressed Zimmerman and explained he was staying in one of the places 3) He could have knocked on doors, trying to get the attention of others 4) He could have called the cops himself 5) He could have fled the entire neighborhood

What did he instead do though? Well he either 1) attacked Zimmerman or 2) went towards/stayed near Zimmerman so Zimmerman could attack him (which is just foolish thinking, but whatever)

Zimmerman did what any one of us would have wanted him too if it were our neighborhood - he tried to protect it from a perceived danger by investigating the situation.

Martin got what Martin asked for when Martin decided he wanted there to be an issue instead of just going home (the most logical option available to him throughout the entire ordeal - from start to finish)

MrMosis

MJW 3:26: Exactly my reaction to the BS about the dispatcher in the affidavit. I am 0% trained lawyer, but upon hearing/reading this (and other parts of the affidavit and the press conference) I was just... stunned. It's like where you look around and wonder, "Am I the only one seeing this?" Makes me want to get into law. I think I could nail "special" procs like her. And she is supposedly one of the special ones!

bunkerbuster

apropos of nothing:
George W. Bush II, aka Rick `I can't quit you' Perry, went down like a Mormon missionary at the Simon Wiesenthal center.
Do you think that might get the wingnuts to re-think their reliance on the god, guns and gays strategy?
Nah…That's all they know. You can't re-think that which never involved thinking…

Danube of Thought

"Dershowitz is a well known liberal law professor. "

Well, he used to be. Now it appears that he is a wingnut of the looniest kind.
There's no loony wingnut quite like a Democrat Harvard Law professor loony wingnut.

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Wilson/Plame