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June 28, 2012

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Janet

You can now lie about your military service.

Well, now we can ALL be Kenyans, Cherokees, & military veterans. :(

Jane

WEll that's a huge defeat. Obama will now have to voice his pleasure with the court.

Appalled

OK folks, ya gotta get rid of Obamacare the old fashioned way --- by repealing it.

If Obama was planning to reinstate PPACA by an executive order (where did you get that, cboldt), I want an investigation. If the man thinks he's dictator, we need to know that.

Jane

Roberts was the swing vote.

dublindave

We just kept the Whitehouse.


Thank you,John Roberts.


Big thanks to Boehner....savy move with the Repeal not replace stuff.......nicely done.

Sue

BREAKING: Chief Justice Roberts about to get glowing NYT profile and favorable mentions on op-ed pages.

per twitter

Sue

Does this mean Obama has to go back now and tell us he is going to tax us?

Danube of Thought

I think you can search in vain for anyone who predicted the SCt would hold it was a tax, and therefore valid.

Remarkable.

RichatUF

Wow. Did the Supreme Court just pass the largest tax increase in US history? Gotta pass it to find out what's in it!

woo woo

I thought there would be no new taxes on us poor folk. So now I pay more on my own healthcare and have to pay increased taxes to cover someone else's health care while they pursue their dreams of being an artist. Seems fair.

Ignatz

Was the court asked to determine if the mandate was a tax?
As I recall all parties contended it wasn't.

cboldt

Appalled, if I don't give a cite or an explanation, it's a good bet that I'm making a bad joke.

Jane

So can the congress apply taxes all willy nilly? Business I like don't have to pay tax, people I hate pay double?

And if the bill says nothing about a tax can they impose the tax.

narciso

But it wasn't written as a tax, WTF?

dublindave

Roberts was the swing vote.

Told ya.

marlene

Oh My! Upheld as a tax? One of the headlines is that Roberts was the swing vote?

cboldt

SCOTUS punts to the people. Too bad for the country, the leeches outnumber the producers.

MarkO

So, how does this tax work?
Did it originate in the house?
Why no metion of the anti-injunction statute.

Major victory for the Obama Administration.

Roberts shall live in infamy.

RichatUF

Christmas in June. Obamacare-It's a tax. Didn't the Administration argue that it wasn't a tax?

bgates

ya gotta get rid of Obamacare the old fashioned way

I'm old fashioned enough to think we should have a constitutional republic.

Jane

Gee dudu, I missed your post where you said it would be shot down under the commerce clause and upheld as a tax.

Can you link to it?

dublindave

Arizona law gone,ACA held up,Fast n furious an embarrasing mess.......like I said before,not a good week for you guys.


hit and run

"But let me perfectly clear ... if your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increased a single dime. I repeat: not one single dime."
--stuff Obama said (in his State of the Union Speech, February 24, 2009)

hrtshpdbox

Why do Republican presidents always appoint Supreme's who turn out to be not so conservative after all? Dem presidents never seem to mistake who's a real liberal and who isn't.

Charlie (Colorado)

So if I'm getting this right, Congress can't make us buy broccoli, but they can tax us for not buying broccoli?

Jane

Did it originate in the house?

Good question.

Melinda Romanoff

So we have TWO Obama tax hikes within six months?

How cashless.

rse

OK-am I the only one who thinks this really does turn this into apolitical albatross for Obama to run on?

It makes people who do not normally want to vote Rep willing to do so to get rid of this disaster.

BO can't run against the Supreme Court but we all know how radical 4 members are.

The Constitution does have barriers to the interstate commerce clause. Time to get someone who will roll it back more.

Janet

Did it originate in the house?

Yeah...what about that?

Ignatz

--"But let me perfectly clear ... if your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increased a single dime. I repeat: not one single dime."--

Barry kept his word, he imposed a fine on us.
SCOTUS raised our taxes.

MarkO

Amy Howe: The money quote from the section on the mandate: Our precedent demonstrates that Congress had the power to impose the exaction in Section 5000A under the taxing power, and that Section 5000A need not be read to do more than impose a tax. This is sufficient to sustain it.

NK

2 Headlines Friday:

1.Obamacare is a giant tax on the working poor who don't have health insurance;

2. Harry Reid proposes a bill to reduce the Mandate Tax to $1/year, and to increase income taxes on the rich to 75% to make up the difference;

The 54% of voters who hate Obamacare grows to 56-57%, and they hate Obamacare even more, because it's a tax, and Obama lied about it.

Roberts would have made Machiavelli proud-- the Commerce Clause is limited, Obama has to justify his tax, and The SCOTUS keeps its political skirts clean. Don Giovani, forza!

dublindave

"Gee dudu, I missed your post where you said it would be shot down under the commerce clause and upheld as a tax. Can you link to it?"


My source was only privy to the broad strokes and not how the decision would be structured,Jane.

Clarice

Also from Scotusblog this mysterious comment:0:20
Amy Howe: The court reinforces that individuals can simply refuse to pay the tax and not comply with the mandate.

Threadkiller

ChaCo, that seems to be a perfect assessment.

NK, what mortgage decision?

MarkO

Damn, my conspiracy theory about Obama knowing is gone. Back to the grassy knoll.

Back to DOOM.

bgates

THANK GOODNESS - the mandate was upheld only 5-4, which means it's by definition illegitimate and the left will stop defending it in order to stay consistent with their arguments over the past few weeks.

Chubby

if it's a tax, it has to be fashioned as single payer, does it not?

Sue

From twitter: It really is Bush's fault this time (referring to CJ Roberts).

Clarice

The only thing that originated in the House was the Number of the bill.

Later/

MarkO

Amy Howe: The Court holds that the Anti-Injunction Act doesn't apply because the label "tax" is not controlling.

NK

DD-- you were completely wrong. Obamacare is not a commerce clause power, it is a tax. Deal with that now baby-- your boy Barry imposed the biggest Federal tax increase in history on the working poor. He goes hat in hand to The Congress now to drop the mandate tax -- oh -- and tell his working poor voters why he lied to them for 3+ years.

Porchlight

A tax only on people who don't qualify for an exemption or don't already have coverage? So I could not be taxed in one fiscal year, but taxed in another because my employer dumped cverage, even though my income hasn't changed?

What a mess.

Jane

So can the tax be struck down because it was not begun in the house, in a separate action?

bgates

SCOTUSblog:"In opening his statement in dissent, Kennedy says: "In our view, the entire Act before us is invalid in its entirety.""

Threadkiller

" The Senate failed to take up debate on the House bill and instead took up H.R. 3590, a bill

regarding housing tax breaks for service members. [158] As the United States Constitution requires

all revenue-related bills to originate in the House, [159] the Senate tookup thisbillsince itwas first passed by the House as a revenue-related modification to the Internal Revenue Code. The bill was then used as the Senate's vehicle for their health care reform proposal, completely revising the

content of the bill. [160] The bill as amended incorporated elementsof earlier proposals that had been reported favorably by the Senate Health and Finance committees."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#section_3

narciso

'this whole court is out of order, Attica'

centralcal

Well, those on the left who were pushing for Ginsburg to retire asap so Obama could appoint another lefty judge, can calm down now, they have Roberts.

Porchlight

Damn, my conspiracy theory about Obama knowing is gone.

He could still have known, but have been pretending not to know by acting as if he was going to lose, as Sue explained.

Danube of Thought

Roberts: "It is reasonable to construe..." this Act as being an exercise of the taxing power, even though the chief executive who signed it insisted it was not, and the solicitor general argued the same thing.

Stand by for some major gloating from the White House, and some bumbling ineptitude from the Romney camp.

MarkO

So it is Roberts who stood between us and freedom. His decision is one of those that come from someone far too clever.

Captain Hate

Roberts == Souter

Porchlight

Oh my God, and to think we were all worried about Kennedy.

Chubby

NK, you make an excellent point. The Court has exposed to the light of day what the legislation tried to hide.

NK

Kennedy writes the dissent-- Kennedy would have invalidated the entire OCA-- wow. The Commerce Clause is not Plenary Police Power-- Nancy Fucking Pelosi "are you kidding me"!

Chubby

I'm eager to hear Romney's response/reaction.

hit and run

I really can't get my mind around having Kennedy voting to hold it unconstitutional and Roberts as constitutional as a tax.

I could have seen it if Kennedy was voting for -- and Roberts joined the majority in a 6-3 decision in order to write the opinion and craft it as narrowly as possible.

But Roberts making it 5-4 without Kennedy?

MarkO

Well, I can say I was right when I said the Court would find 9-0 that the mandate violated the Commerce Clause.

Sue

There were 4 votes to strike down Obamacare in its entirety. Roberts saved it.

cboldt

Heh - it's a tax that doesn't have to be paid? No obligation to comply with the mandate, no obligation to pay the tax, and voila. I love it! No obligation to follow the law! SCOTUS endorses anarchy! Who knew?

They can't make you buy broccoli, but they can tax you if you don't buy broccoli, but the government can't enforce non-payment of the tax on broccoli.

Fricking brilliance by our government.

marlene

Repeal the Tax! We need T-shirts,lawn signs and bumper stickers ASAP!

bgates

cbolt, SCOTUSblog got that wrong

"Tom: Apologies - you can't refuse to pay the tax; typo. The only effect of not complying with the mandate is that you pay the tax."

Danube of Thought

Is this Roberts's clever way of punting this to the electorate without either overruling the congress or expanding the Commerce Clause power?

Charlie (Colorado)

Well, I can say I was right when I said the Court would find 9-0 that the mandate violated the Commerce Clause.

Which is a good thing, although given the tax thing I'm not sure what it means.

Charlie (Colorado)

Is this Roberts's clever way of punting this to the electorate without either overruling the congress or expanding the Commerce Clause power?

It sounds like Roberts' opinion says that explicitly.

Ignatz

In answer to my own question at 10:19 they were asked if it was a penalty or a tax for purposes of the Anti Injunction Act.
But how does determining that the failure to buy a particular product can result in a tax make the mandate to but that product constitutional?
Seems to me this is less of a win than they think and may raise some pretty thorny questions as to enforcement, non compliance etc. A mess indeed.
Barry may yet rue the day they helped him out.

dublindave

"DD-- you were completely wrong. Obamacare is not a commerce clause power, it is a tax. Deal with that now baby-- your boy Barry imposed the biggest Federal tax increase in history on the working poor"


I never stated the capacity in which the individual mandate would survive,only that it would survive.


So it's under a congressional taxing power,not a commerce clause power.


But it has survived.I was right.


Deal with it.

Jane

If states can opt out with no penalty, how can the federal law hold its own? (according to Bret Baer)

So it may end up being a good thing.

Appalled

OK -- Now it matters who wins the senate. Stop complaining about the court, which acted in the limited fashion usually celebrated by conservative thinkers, and elect your GOP Senator. Even the "RINO" ones. (I'm looking at you, Jane...)

dublindave

Lmao....man i'm so smart ..........woo hooo Obama care lives.

Charlie (Colorado)

Ann Althouse has an interesting take:

I have said repeatedly that Obama would be worse off if Obamacare were upheld, but what I'm really seeing is how bad it is for him with the mandate declared a tax.

Remember the Democrats got the statute passed by insisting it was not a tax. Now, we learn it is only constitutional because it is a tax. That's got to hurt politically

cboldt

-- I really can't get my mind around having Kennedy voting to hold it unconstitutional and Roberts as constitutional as a tax. --

Okay, first, I don't follow SCOTUS, and especially I don't follow Alito, but I had the thought to make a smart ass remark that Alito would be the one to uphold the act.

That Roberts did is no surprise to me, at all. Keep in mind that the GOP legislators proposed essentially the same scheme as an alternative to Hillary!Care; and that once a person gets the sort of exposure to federal power and federal government that Roberts has, they are loath to admit any limit on federal power. The only "trick" is to figure how to justify the assertion of power.

Most of these decisions collapse, logically, on close review. There is a "bbotstrap" or some piece of absurd reasoning that the whole thing hinges on.

Like Scalia in Heller - unconstitutional laws (machine gun "ban") become constitutional if they stand long enough.

A tax that doesn't have to be paid is pretty much a nullity. It's as though it doesn't exist. That's about as absurd a reason to uphold something as I've ever heard.

Jane

I don't know of one person who predicted this opinion.

Charlie (Colorado)

elect your GOP Senator. Even the "RINO" ones.

Word.

Sue

So, instead of Obamacare, we now have Obama's Health Care Tax. People understand the word tax.

Ignatz

--Stop complaining about the court, which acted in the limited fashion usually celebrated by conservative thinkers, and elect your GOP Senator.--

We would celebrate the court limiting government as the Constitution provides, not that the court limit itself in protecting us from the government's unconstitutional encroachments.

bgates

Is this Roberts's clever way of punting this to the electorate

The Democrats will argue that Obamacare was affirmed as Constitutional by the Supreme Court, an august and learned body whose views have always been entitled to deference; but nobody called it a tax but a group of five unelected people and who cares what they think.

Porchlight

OK -- Now it matters who wins the senate.

It always mattered, Appalled.

Charlie (Colorado)

A tax that doesn't have to be paid is pretty much a nullity. It's as though it doesn't exist. That's about as absurd a reason to uphold something as I've ever heard.

Scroll back -- that was a SCOTUSblog typo.

Captain Hate

I'm with Appalled, Congress put it in and should take it out.

Go Tea Party.

C.R.

Can someone speak to Jane's point? Don't all taxation bills have to originate in the House?

rse

Roberts protected the Ct from being an issue in Pres campaign obscuring what was really the issue.

He protected the Constitution by blocking the Commerce Clause.

The final votes could have been in flux until one side got their way in a manner that endangers Obama himself far more acutely than yesterday.

There will be no escaping a campaign that one candidate will destroy the healthcare system and one will repeal and reform.

I think as this becomes known it will harm his support in blocs he believed he could count on. Anyone upset about Obamacare must vote for Romney if it's the first time in their life.

Charlie (Colorado)

But it has survived.

As a massive new tax on those least able to pay.

Rick Ballard

"Is this Roberts's clever way of punting this to the electorate without either overruling the congress or expanding the Commerce Clause power?"

I don't find counting a tail as a leg particularly clever but Chief Justice (titular head of the Nine Ninnies) Roberts's decision does place the ball with the electorate. The error will be redressed in November.

Jane

Appalled,

Look at TC, DGS, and Rocco. I'm busy.

cboldt

Oh, well, I guess I have to find a different absurdity to hang my ridicule on.

Not that the federal government could possibly do something that would cause me to respect it - I mean, other than in the same way I respect the Mafia.

Collapse is inevitable. I hope the federal government does, before I do.

dublindave

Remember the Democrats got the statute passed by insisting it was not a tax. Now, we learn it is only constitutional because it is a tax. That's got to hurt politically


Who cares..it's our signature piece of legislation we've been fighting for for 80 years...take the whitehouse.....we don't need it anymore...Obama can go on holiday......try and over turn and we'll strangle the legislative process.You'll never have the votes.

We won.It's over.

Ignatz

--"Tom: Apologies - you can't refuse to pay the tax; typo. The only effect of not complying with the mandate is that you pay the tax."--

I thought one of the problems was there was no enforcement mechanism in it to force compliance.

Sue

As a massive new tax

People understand the word tax. This might not be a good thing for Obama.

dublindave

I thought one of the problems was there was no enforcement mechanism in it to force compliance.


There is;you gotta pay the tax.Roflmao.

Charlie (Colorado)

Can someone speak to Jane's point? Don't all taxation bills have to originate in the House?

Didn't tehy get around that (and enable passing it with 51 votes) by using a House Bill already to the Senate and amending it whole, replacing the text?

Porchlight

Prediction: Obama will not mention both the word "tax" and the words "health care" on the same day from now until the election.

Appalled

Appalled,

Look at TC, DGS, and Rocco. I'm busy.

You're the one with the microphone.

narciso

Hence the 1500 new IRS agents,

Porchlight

I think that's right, Charlie.

Sue

Stocks are tumbling...raising taxes does that to the stock market.

Porchlight

I mean, not that it's right, but that's how it happened, at any rate.

Stephanie

So if it’s a tax, it can be repealed with only 51 votes in the Senate, correct? Doesn’t matter, though, as SCOTUS has ruled that we’re now serfs.

Melinda Romanoff

2 Tax hikes inside six months.

No pressure on Congress at all.

Janet

Isn't it sad to see how excited some citizens become when the federal government takes away some of their freedoms? They are happy about it...unbelievable.

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