Defending Joe Paterno

Paul Mirengoff at Powerline takes up the challenge of defending Joe Paterno.  Yike!

Having glanced through it, I would infer that an unspoken assumption of the Freeh report is that of course Joe Paterno knew what was happening in his football empire. Set against that, the 1998 abuse allegation seems to have been investigated and Sandusky exonerated. Here is Mr. Mirengoff quoting a contributor:

First, with respect to the 1998 incident, the Freeh Report says that several authorities promptly investigated and reviewed the matter, including the Department of Public Welfare, the University Police Department, the State College police, and the local district attorney’s office. Freeh Report at 42-47. A “counselor” named John Seasock issued a report that found “no indication of child abuse.” Freeh Report at 42-46. Mr. Seasock interviewed the alleged victim and determined that “there seems to be no incident which could be termed as sexual abuse, nor did there appear to be any sequential pattern of logic and behavior which is usually consistent with adults who have difficulty with sexual abuse of children.” Freeh Report at 44 (quoting Mr. Seasock’s 1998 evaluation of the alleged victim). The Freeh Report adds that Mr. Seasock “couldn’t find any indication of child abuse.” Freeh Report at 45.

Obviously, that exoneration does not look good in hindsight, but no evidence of a cover-up as of 1998 is presented. As to what Parterno knew and when he knew it:

The Report does not provide any evidence about what Joe Paterno knew about the 1998 allegations against Sandusky. The Report does not provide any evidence about what Mr. Paterno did or said, or what anyone said to Mr. Paterno. Indeed, the Freeh Report suggests that both law enforcement and the University police agreed that nothing improper happened and that the allegations lacked merit. Did anyone tell Joe Paterno about those findings?

Invoking the "Of course he knew" principle allows an easy answer to those questions, but one might have expected more in the way of documentation from the Freeh team.

As to the 2001 incident:

Furthermore, if Mr. Paterno had reported the McQueary information to me (were I, like Schultz, the official in charge of the University Police), I would have told him to keep his mouth shut going forward and let the authorities handle the matter. Otherwise, Mr. Paterno could have tainted the investigation. And, because he was a potential trial witness (to McQueary’s prior consistent statements, see Federal Rule of Evidence 801(d)(1)(B) and Pennsylvania Rule of Evidence613(c)), any further statements or action by Mr. Paterno could have become cross-examination fodder for the defense. Any further action by Mr.Paterno could only have damaged the integrity of the investigation and any prosecution against Sandusky.

Indeed, Mr. Paterno explained his actions before died by saying that “I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the University procedure was. So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did.” Freeh Report at 77-78. This statement makes perfect sense, and the notion of a football coach supervising a criminal investigation is ridiculous. It is very possible that Curley or Schultz or both told Mr. Paterno to stay out of the matter; in fact, Schultz should have told him as much. But we don’t know because Schultz and Curley are under indictment and not talking, Paterno is dead, and the Freeh Report did not find any information about this issue.

This is a pretty legalistic case. A Joe Paterno with a more assertive attitude and a greater interest in the well-being of the children involved - i.e., the Joe Paterno we thought we knew - would not have let a mere University President tell him to back off and pipe down. The Joe Paterno we thought we knew would have made sure butts were kicked and names were taken, lawyers be damned.

Well - something to think about (or scream about).

Comments

[Sara]

Was she trying to "steal" my "innocence" at 19?

I was 19 when I was gang raped by a bunch of college frat guys in their fraternity house and during one of their sponsored parties. I can tell you that I not only lost my virginity that night, but I also lost my innocence, which was far more devastating and had much longer lasting effects than just the loss of virginity ever could. The biggest loss was the ability to trust anyone, the loss of the idea that men were going to treat me with the respect and protect me in the way the men in my life had up to that time, i.e. my father, uncles, even boyfriends, my faith faltered for a long long time, etc, etc. But the biggest loss was of my own self-esteem. It left me wide open for the next a@@hole to come along and use my issues against me. It left me wide open to someone who was an habitual physical abuser. After that, I recognized that no one was going to help me or protect me and that I better get it together or face a life of sh!t. I got counseling, it helped me redevelop a backbone and to be much more careful, but you never really get over it. There will always be triggers that jump out and bite you when you least expect it, i.e. the Duke case, rape trials, even my own husband throwing out his arm to save me during a sudden traffic stop sent me into full blown panic attack when his arm came flinging toward me, coming home and finding the house ransacked by burglars and not caring what was stolen, but again going into a full blown anxiety attack over feeling violated.

Sandusky's victims will probably all suffer similar symptoms of varying degree. The triggers won't be the same, but there will always be triggers. Time does heal, but only to a certain point. The rest seems to be so deeply rooted, the responses are beyond our conscious control. A form of PTSD.

[sbwaters]

Minimum two for society: respect for others who live their lives as acutely as I do.

Rape of others -- adult or child -- does not show respect due others, and, by that individual resorting to the law of the jungle, not society, any response in nature's arsenal may be considered. Any response is justified, although it need not be exercised.

[Ralph L]

Pics maybe to follow.
Posted by: hit and run
Quit picing your nose!

[sbwaters]

Ig: "Because we're right? Who says? You and me? He doesn't."

Our first job is to establish minimal society where we can, and defend ourselves where we can't.

I've simply pointed out the shortcomings of expressing moral frameworks in terms of religion that others may not believe in.

Of all the gods, each person believes his/hers is special because of personal ownership. And gods have been easily hijacked down through the ages.

No. reason is not how we think. It is how we check our work. Do not consider me anti-god; simply careful and trying to establish civility with others that more may live under a shared umbrella of peaceful problem resolution.

[Frau Silbersee]

Sara, it's a tribute to the strength you found within yourself.

[hit and run]

Sara:
But the biggest loss was of my own self-esteem. It left me wide open for the next a@@hole to come along and use my issues against me.

Ugh, Sara, I can't possibly pretend to comprehend all you've gone through.

Neither can I adequately tell you how much I admire where you are today -- with all you've been through. You have not only survived, you have thrived, to become such an amazingly strong person.

I love you.

[Stephanie]

Just posted a great pic on my FB timeline if someone wants to grab it. hint hint.... it's totally worth it!!!

[hit and run]

When I was chaplain at the YMCA of the Rockies I had a staffer who had also been raped in college. When she told me, I was literally at a loss for words. I was 21 and completely unable to truly help her in the ways she needed. She came to the Bible studies and was trying very hard to be devout. But she was preyed upon by an a@@hole staffer who did exactly as you describe. I had all sorts of "words" of encouragement, but I was simply not equipped to deal with her situation at the level she really needed. I have often through the years wondered what happened to her, and I still pray that she has grown stronger and healthier.

[Rick Ballard]

Anyone up for an over/under on how many more times the Dems will roll the gays before the election? I'll go for two - any more and the ROI will be too low. Each of these stunts costs votes and the income can't cover the ad buys necessary to pull voters back. The unions pulling their cash support must really be hurting.

[Threadkiller]

--"My first question is, how did Chaco get his little mug to appear next to his comment?
My second question is why?"--

"(TC and DoT can attest to the general dirtbaggedness appearance I give off).

Hah! TK...I'd probably have a crush on you.

Posted by: Janet | July 26, 2012 at 11:31 AM"

I think something sparked his competitive side.

:-)

[hit and run]

The best part is, it doesn't interfere when I tilt a beer back.

[Ralph L]

The rest seems to be so deeply rooted, the responses are beyond our conscious control.
I used to watch "Loveline" with Dr. Drew on Mtv; it's now on the radio. It was scary how often he would find out someone in a rotten situation had been abused in (usually her) youth, often by the same type of cretin. He'd hear an adult with a little girl voice and know something terrible had happened to her as a child.

[narciso]

They must have gotten a bulk rate of the 'Amber Waves of Gray' or they just think dialing up to eleven, is the solution,

[Threadkiller]

The best part is that the diaper isn't still attached.

[Stephanie]

Fred Thompson is on frigging fire today:

The New York Times posted another huge loss this quarter.

Hope they stay afloat. What a terrible world it'd be without them - all those untrained puppies.

[hit and run]

TK:
The best part is that the diaper isn't still attached.

Heh. I heated it with a lighter for 30 minutes and then submerged it into an ice cube and then wiped it with an alcohol swab.

I wasn't doing that to rid it of fecal matter, but now that you mention it....

[hit and run]

30 seconds...

[Clarice]

Hit, I hope you'll take this in the right way--when does Claire get home?

Sara, I can't wait until you get a place of your own. I hope the market provides a great opportunity for you.

[hit and run]

Claire and the kids get in maybe a few hours before school starts. Maybe a day. Who knows?

[Stephanie]

Awesome.

[Threadkiller]

Looks like you got a fair trade, Hit:

[Stephanie]

Well schnit. I can't get the pic to post.

LUN

[Rick Ballard]

Narciso,

They spent $100 million to make sure the American electorate understood Governor Romney to be an extraordinarily successful businessman and then moved moved 15% of the Independents over to the GOP column in 10 days with just a couple of speeches (albeit, cribbed from the masterful Lakoff of Berkeley).

What will they do for an encore in August?

[Clarice]

I lack the imagination to respond, Rick. They're just too clever at being stupid for me to keep up.

[hit and run]

Stephanie's pic:

[hit and run]

::sorry Todd::

[Ralph L]

Dr. Drew also said people with genital piercings/tattoos were almost all molested as children. Who played with Hit's childhood nose?

I still find it strange that McQueary left the boy in Sandusky's custody and didn't bother to get his name.

[Sara]

Hit:

Don't beat yourself up. There probably wasn't much you could do to help your friend. She probably, at that point, didn't know she really needed help.

I can only speak for myself, but it did not help me to be told it wasn't my fault. That may be true in the big picture, but my response was, "Of course it was my fault." It was my fault for wanting the status of being seen with a Phi Delt and getting invited to one of their famous parties. (My Dad was a Phi Delt so this was a major big deal to me.) It was my fault that I let my date talk me into "just trying" my first alcoholic drink, Colt 45 Malt Liquor. It was my fault for being so shallow that I wanted to be one of the cool kids. I could go on and on.

The point is not to draw out sympathy from others, but to just let the person know that they are still okay by you. I lived a pretty charmed childhood and I have a relatively high IQ and I was not really a child at 19, but I know how hard it was to pull myself back from the brink and start feeling worthy again. I cannot imagine how a child survives, at least emotionally. And this is why I say that all physical and sexual abusers should be shot on sight. They not only take away your innocence they infect your very soul. The most lasting effect is the feelings of fear, helplessness, and violation. How does a child ever process these things rationally?

[sbwaters]

'Night all.

[Stephanie]

Thanks, hit! For some reason when I use the html img feature in FF, it doesn't imbed the image.

Love the pic. A little eye candy for all.

[Stephanie]

Sure is quiet in here tonight. Everyone watching the Olympics?

[Clarice]

I'm just petrified that if anyone has genital piercings they'll post a picture of them.

Good night.

[Sara]

Right click on the pic to see Todd in all his hunkster glory!!!!!

[Threadkiller]

Not me. I'm reading the Constitution, Stephanie.

[hit and run]

Stephanie - I copy and saved it away from FB to get it to post....

I probably broke a copyright law or two in doing so, but I got a safety pin in my nose, so I'm just a badass like that.

[Sara]

Celebrating the National Healcare of Britain in the Opening Ceremonies. OMG! For the first time, I'm actually glad PUK didn't live to see this.

[hit and run]

Clarice:
I'm just petrified that if anyone has genital piercings they'll post a picture of them.

No me. Not here. That's on my pay per click site.

[Threadkiller]

...and drinking.

[Frau Silbersee]

Matt Lauer just let me know that the British are so proud of their health care. PUK has a message for him.

[Threadkiller]

Ok, you caught me.

The broad that is cohosting with Lauer pointed out that the children, in the hospital gurneys, "didn't look that sick."

[mockmook]

First we are told that everybody in Happy Valley knew about Sandusky.

Then we are told that the BoT had no inkling.

If I knew, I think I might have called the police, but that's just me.

[Danube of Thought]

"Celebrating the National Healcare of Britain in the Opening Ceremonies. OMG!"

Serfs, thanking their masters for what has been permitted.

[Stephanie]

Celebrating the National Healcare of Britain in the Opening Ceremonies. OMG! For the first time, I'm actually glad PUK didn't live to see this.

NO joke...

As payback I'm going to spoil the ending for all you west coasters... they light a torch at the end.

YMVVW

[jimmyk]

Many years ago a number of apartment dwellers listened in horror as a young woman named Kitty Genovese was being brutally murdered on the street below. Not one of them attempted to come to her aid. Not one of them called the police. And not one of them committed any crime.

DoT, this doesn't affect your point (which I agree with), but the Kitty Genovese story has been debunked as greatly exaggerated and largely false. See, for example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/nyregion/kitty-40-years-later.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Yes, it's the NYT, but the whole legend was largely based on the original account in the NYT in 1964. Surpise, surprise, even then they basically made stuff up to sensationalize and promote an agenda.

[Threadkiller]

"Harrington said the case first began in 2002, when state water managers told him there were complaints about the three “reservoirs” – ponds – on his more than 170 acres of land.

According to Oregon water laws, all water is publicly owned. Therefore, anyone who wants to store any type of water on their property must first obtain a permit from state water managers.

Harrington said he applied for three permits to legally house reservoirs for storm and snow water runoff on his property. One of the “reservoirs” had been on his property for 37 years, he said.

Though the state Water Resources Department initially approved his permits in 2003, the state – and a state court -- ultimately reversed the decision.

“They issued me my permits. I had my permits in hand and they retracted them just arbitrarily, basically. They took them back and said ‘No, you can’t have them,’ so I’ve been fighting it ever since,” Harrington told CNSNews.com."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/oregon-man-sentenced-30-days-jail-collecting-rainwater-his-property

Goodnight.

[Threadkiller]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/robbins-report/2012/jul/27/un-arms-treaty-dead/

[boris]

"pointed out the shortcomings of expressing moral frameworks in terms of religion that others may not believe in"

And what about the shortcomings of expressing moral frameworks in terms of reason others find simplistic and inadequate.

Assuming Judeo-Christian morality is both faith based and reasonable ... and your claim is: Reason is a better way to sell JC morality to other cultures and faiths ...

... the implication is JC religion is "better".

Based on analysis of reason.

And the "everybody thinks their religion is better" argument just means not everybody is right about that. But according to "humility and reciprocity" being right about which one is better is some kind of no no.

Too postmodern for me I guess. Ya, reason tells me JC morality is better, and I don't mind if you think you can sell it on that basis. Kinda mind the assertion that "reason" makes it better because I doubt that very much. IMO reason based morality is fair weather morality.

[Frau Silbersee]

So far I'm underwhelmed by most of the show tonight from London, and I'm so easy to please.
zzzzzzzz...

[jimmyk]

Re Kitty Genovese, if anyone is interested, that NYT link is naturally a bit cagey given that it's an admission of bad journalism. This is more straightforward and links to a published study:

http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2007/10/truth-behind-story-of-kitty-genovese.html

I wonder how many millions of research dollars were squandered on psychologists investigating a phenomenon that was based on a false NYT story.

[Sara]

So far I'm underwhelmed by most of the show tonight from London, and I'm so easy to please.
zzzzzzzz...

Ditto.

[Stephanie]

Not impressed with the 10 minute removal of the turf and the rising of the smokestacks?

Twitter was merciless in its slamming of the opening ceremonies. Viera was an absolute twit and Lauer? OMG unbelievably bad. It's an indictment of coverage when you are eagerly anticipating Bob Costas to raise the discourse.

Anyone else a little disconcerted by the pic on drudge looking up at queen's bloomers?

[daddy]

Just arrived at the Hotel and I see the Japanese Soccer Girls are leading the Canadian Girls 2 to 1, and it's in minute 2 of penalty time.

Can't tell if it's live or not yet, but It is great to watch the Olympics in different countries.

Thats it! Yay Nippon!

My local buddies should be happy tonight.

[Sara]

Disgraced Penn State President Hired by Obama Administration for Top Secret National Security Post.

[Stephanie]

Didn't even notice the caption til now...

Let the GAMS begin

LULZ

[daddy]

Kim,

I haven't heard from Mark Steyn since that challenge from Michael Mann went out.

Now we have the Watts Up announcement.

Wonder if there is any connection?

Guess we'll find out on Sunday.

[narciso]

Since we see that jEnneke won't compete till 2016, it takes some of the suspense out of it.

[Sara]

My impression after the Parade Nations is that there are some very good looking women athletes. I can't speak to the men since the camera men are obviously concentrating on the gals.

[Sara]

Parade OF Nations

[Elliott]

I saw a photograph from the ceremony of the children and the hospital beds, to all appearances a cross between Oliver and the 2009 English National Opera production of Handel's Messiah (third photo). One is tempted to conclude that Friday's 3 minutes of matinal bell ringing throughout the land tolled Kissinger hour for the once redoubtable parodists of Albion.

[Some guy]

Sara,

I'm very sorry for what you went through, and I doubt this will make you feel any better about what happened, but I thought sharing it might be... well, I don't know...

In college I lived off campus, but some friends lived in the "jock dorm" where scholarship athletes had priority. One night I stopped by to see one of them, and we were talking when some jerk came in to tell him that there was a girl “everyone was doing” down the hall. My future ex-friend demurred, but also just moved on to what we were talking about. He just pretended that nothing had happened.

It took me a minute to comprehend what was going on, but once it hit me, I went down the hall. Some other twit was about to take 'his turn' and I told him to get out. He probably had a few inches and at least 50 lbs on me, but for some reason he decided not to mess with me. I picked the girl up and just walked out with her, while several guys looked at me like I was from Mars.

Poor thing was so out of it that she couldn't even tell me where to take her. When she started to gain awareness, she initially thought I'd done something to her, but I eventually got her to understand I was trying to help and to tell me where to take her. She wouldn't tell me her name, and she had no desire to talk beyond how to get her home.

I took her to her dorm, and made the RA come down and take care of her, and I gave the RA my name and phone number. I asked the RA to call me the next day to make sure the girl was OK – I never heard from either, which in retrospect is perfectly understandable.

This doesn’t make what happened to you less painful, but maybe it was comforting to hear about. My apologies if it wasn’t helpful or supportive.

[Porchlight]

Hey y'all - heading to Cape May, NJ for a 70th birthday celebration for my mom. It's where we used to vacation when I was a kid. Might not have much web access. Hope everyone has a great week!

[Sara]

SG: Thanks for sharing. That was a very nice thing you did.

For me, it is long in the past and I rarely think about those days anymore, at least not emotionally. When it does come up, I find that I can now talk about it as if it happened to someone else. For all intents and purposes, it did, since I am a far cry from that naive 19 year old, who was too ashamed to tell anyone in authority at the time. There is a place you get to that I call the "matter of fact" place. It happened, can't change what happened, move on, and don't wallow in victimhood. When you reach that place, at least for me, you get back your free will and can choose whether to be one who only reacts, or someone who acts to take control of their own life. The pendulum, for me, swung wide. I went from total denial to extremely angry. When I finally came fully back to reality, I found that I was in control and could choose how I would deal with the whole thing going forward. It was a very empowering and liberating moment.

Let's hope that your moment of kindness helped your friend return to some kind of normalcy.

[Extraneus]

Jesse Jackson Jr. in Mayo Clinic being treated for depression

...and gastrointestinal issues.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

Anyone watching the Olympics?

Pretty intense women's air rifle competition. And how about that dressage outfit? Is Ann Romney competing? For a minute there, I thought they were going to have a Hospital Bed race at the opening ceremony.

Looks like some guy will win the bike race.

[sailor]

Opening ceremony was pretty terrible, I thought.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

sailor,

It was so left wing even Tony Blairs press guy questioned who approved it.

[hit and run]

Daddy:
I haven't heard from Mark Steyn since that challenge from Michael Mann went out.

He's been posting intermittently on the Corner. And his weekend article is out.

[Clarice]

Elliott!! Very excellent. Are you still there or have you returned to these fair shores?

[pops]

I am sure the liberals are thrilled Sandusky was un-armed and thus no threat to the public.

[pops]

The opening ceremony looked like a mish=mash of everyones favorite things. Sort of like writing a State of the Union.

The whole National Health Service part was just ludicrous. What do the games have to do with England sad national health care?

Perhaps it would have made better sense if Britain had barred all the ahtletes and teams from bringing their own doctors and you had to be treated by the NHS for the duration of the games.

Does anyone believe the Queen, Beckham, McCartney, etc. actually use the NHS??

[Another Bob]

Hate coming to these threads late, but re Paterno, this isn't complicated. "JoPa" and everyone he controlled were more interested in the football program than anything else. The university administrators were more concerned about the image of the university.

When McQueary encountered Sandusky and the child, he should have kicked Sandusky's ass, called the *state* police, then went to Paterno - in that order. This wasn't a question of university policies, an obvious felony was committed. Paterno's "aw shucks, I told my boss" - same thing. It was a massive ass-covering exercise.

All involved - Paterno included - have richly deserved their treatment so far. And I've wondered whether McQueary could have been charged with endangerment for ignoring what he saw.

The other people who are getting exactly what they deserve are the PSU football cultists. I've wondered if no football would be better, but have concluded that they more deserve a sucky football team with no chance of winning.

[pops]

Sitting in a home somewhere while fireworks lit up the Olympics opening ceremony would have been the family of Kane Gorny.

They watched their cherished teenage son die of thirst at the hands of incompetent doctors and nurses.

Kane was a promising footballer with a bright future ahead of him until he was admitted to hospital. He died of thirst a couple of days later.

His life was lost for want of a simple glass of water. One glass of water that a succession of clueless medics denied to him.
Kane even went to the extreme length of calling 999 from his hospital bed so desperate was he for a drink during the visit to hospital for a hip replacement in 2009. Yet when the police arrived the nurses ushered them away assuring them that the young patient was confused.

Within a day he was dead. Dead because NHS hospital staff refused to give a sick man a glass of water. We are not talking some powerful prescription drug. Just a small glass of tap water.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2180124/Olympics-opening-ceremony-NHS-disgracefully-glorified.html#ixzz21vMCtNtf

[Clarice]

I understand Viera said those kids did't look very sick. What's worse, the stupid show or the idiotic commentary?

[tommy r]

Freeh report criticizes NCAA for using report as basis for PSU sanctions. http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8207795/report-freeh-report-source-criticizes-ncaa-penalties-penn-state-nittany-lions

THE PSU BoT is hiding the truth, I am convinced.

[hit and run]

pops:
The opening ceremony looked like a mish=mash of everyones favorite things.

I was very moved by the elegance of the cream colored ponies. And extremely impressed by just how crisp the apple streudels were. And the artistry when they had that shot with the wild geese flying with the moon on their wings? Well. These are a few of my favorite things from last night.

[hit and run]

Oh. New opening ceremonies thread.

[centralcal]

Didn't watch opening ceremonies. About the nurses and the kids jumping on hospital beds, a Telegraph UK blogger said this:

The NHS segment in particular underlined how surprisingly parochial this ceremony was. The idea of the Health Service as a beacon for the world is, bluntly, a national self-delusion. Most other Western European countries have better state healthcare systems – and healthier people – than we do

.

A "national self-delusion" pretty much sums it up.

[pops]

It would be like having the Olympics in the US and having 15 minutes of the opening ceremony celebrating the DMV.

[hit and run]

"In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."
--stuff Krugman said

[narciso]

It's bizarre as one of the two gentleman who issued Fatwas against Sadat, Sheik Rahman, being the other one, gets such laudatory treatment.

[Threadkiller]

"What's worse, the stupid show or the idiotic commentary?"

One of the rare examples of a perfect tie.

[AliceH]

Posted by: pops | July 28, 2012 at 09:37 AM

I can't understand this story. Not one nurse, not one aid, not one doctor, not one emergency responder, not one fellow patient, not one visitor, not one family member .... gave the guy some water? He never got breakfast, lunch, dinner with something to drink? There is a picture of him in the hospital, with his mother. She didn't bring him water? He had access to a phone. He didn't call his Mom? I realize the coroner determined cause was dehydration, I just don't know how it could have happened.

Note - this is not an attempt to mitigate guilt of the responsible. I don't get how even in the face of total dereliction of duty by the paid staff he was so utterly abandoned by all other potential sources.

[We need robins, woodpeckers, jaybirds and the whole Winged Kingdom.]

Spanier now supposedly employed by this wicked administration on national security matters.
=================

[Have Blue]

If one claims to believe that God does not exist then it logically follows that you would have to believe that the moral code espoused in the Bible is a "man-made code."

Now you may not like that man made code but it would be a man made code and a fairly broadly accepted one.

[Sara]

Wasn't one of PUK's complaints that they refused to give his mother water leading up to her death?

[AliceH]

Re: Kane Gorny. More info here . He had diabetes insipidus, "a disease which can bring on bouts of paranoia and aggression if not adequately medicated and his fluid levels drop". Also further complicate by the sedation they gave him, due to his aggressive and paranoid behavior.

So - still a tragic consequence of 'not my problem' attitudes, but not quite a simple refusal to provide a glass of water.

[Captain Hate]

THE PSU BoT is hiding the truth, I am convinced.

Based on what? There was nothing in that article that came down on the BoT. If it turns out the the BoT arranged for the JEF's administration to hire Spanier to keep him quiet, I'll be the first one to call for all their scalps. But that would be dumb for all involved in an election year where somebody would be well placed to sniff it out. If Spanier is implicated in a coverup he's going to jail, period.

[Ignatz]

--So - still a tragic consequence of 'not my problem' attitudes, but not quite a simple refusal to provide a glass of water.--

Keeping any and every patient properly hydrated is about the first and simplest and most important thing hospital staff does.
And if he was there for a hip replacement he was almost certainly IVed so it was actually simpler than giving him a glass of water; all they had to do was slap a saline bag on his IV stand whether he was awake, asleep, placid or howling at the moon.

[Janet]

I'm just petrified that if anyone has genital piercings they'll post a picture of them.

hahahahaa...great thread! Loved the diaper pin post & picture too! Too funny.

[hit and run]

Here's the story of PUK's mother.

Second to last comment on the thread.

[AliceH]

Ignatz - no, not quite. They could turned the IV fluids on Max, and he would still have died because what he was lacking was his medication. Dehydration was just one symptom of that but the other symptoms (dangerously high sodium levels, very rapid pulse, very low blood pressure ....) were sure to kill him.

[Denver]

No decade long death penalty, no justice. I think that says it all.

[tommy r]

@ Captain Hate. What evidence against the board you ask. What evidence is there in the Freeh report to justify the NCAA action. Same thing, there is none because a complete and thorough investigation was not done and that is the point. So why would the executive committee of the BoT sign off on this punishment without a full investigation? The Freeh investigators did not interview AD Curley. They did not interview McQueary. They did not interview PD chief Shultz. They could not interview Paterno because he is dead. The BoT hired and paid Freeh over 6 million dollars and got an incomplete investigation that even a Freeh contributor admits was not complete enough to warrant the NCAA action. Captain, you familiar with due process? Apparently not. Keep on reading the headlines and biased commentary for your information, lol.

[Voldemort Delenda Est ! Sandy Daze]

late to the thread.

@ hit and run | July 27, 2012 at 07:33 PM:

But how in the world did the misspelling spread so rapidly?

Perhaps the cows ?

[hit and run]

Yes, Sandy, my 7:45 comment pointed that out.

You do *not* want to see my Chick Fil A photoshop of that ad. The cow becomes a sheep, trying to convince Islamists to ....nevermind. It's awful.

[EBL]

I do not consider Joe Paterno evil or anywhere in the same league as Sandusky, but this all happened on his watch, there was talk of Sandusky doing improper things going back to 1999 (at least), and Paterno (I am guessing) did not want to believe his friend and coworkers was doing these things.

I get that, I can understand it, but it does not excuse the damage that was done to a lot of young boys. I do not consider Paterno criminally culpable, but there was a lot of denial going on. And Penn State and Paterno's legacy should pay some price for that.

[Captain Hate]

Captain, you familiar with due process? Apparently not. Keep on reading the headlines and biased commentary for your information, lol.

Keep LOLing all you want, dickbag; it's not my school getting bent over by the NCAA. And what is "due process" for the NCAA? They pretty much do whatever the hell they want to. If you want to keep making excuses for a school where child abuse happened over a long period of time by somebody associated with almost all of Paterno's career, have at it. It'll make you popular with the Cult of Happy Valley but not so much elsewhere.

[Ignatz]

--Ignatz - no, not quite. They could turned the IV fluids on Max, and he would still have died because what he was lacking was his medication.--

That's not clear from your link, Alice. He did need his medication but simply hydrating him would have alleviated most of the symptoms that you list and probably would have kept him alive long enough for somebody to pull their head out.
Had they hydrated him he almost certainly would not have died of dehydration which the coroner determined was the cause of death.

[DebinNC]

All involved - Paterno included - have richly deserved their treatment so far.

Starting a year after Sandusky retired or imo was forced out, the PSU win-loss record dramatically changed. Several times in the 2000s they only won 3-4 games. I think one of those was the year Paterno heard McQuerry's horror tale and stopped his supposed superiors from alerting the cops. That on top of the mounting losses would have forced his removal, as the 1998 episode and the 2000 obscene Sandusky episode the locker room janitor/s witnessed would likely have been revealed. Old JoePa imo was willing to sacrifice anyone, no matter how young and defenseless, who stood between him and the coveted "winningest coach" record. I'm so glad this disgraceful person was finally denied that honor gained through deceit, cowardice, and selfish disregard for innocents.

[Commentator]

Slander ... ?

What about that? Paterno did not see the 2001 incident and only had the perhaps incorrectly witnessed or understood brief observation of McQueary. So to do other than to report it to the proper authorities and remain silent may have been the correct thing to do. Look at the Duke lacrosse case; people are mistakenly accused all the time by the victim, by outsiders, etc. Perhaps he thought the investigation proved the claims without merit. If the victim and the authorities were not angry at the situation, why would a total bystander be?

I think it's the magnitude of the crime that has perhaps caused people to demand too much from Paterno as old as he was. Had it been a parent hitting their kid or shop-lifting, would we be as upset? Why is the standard for a bystander different if we are only talking about hearsay and accusation? Paterno does not have to be a vigilante non-witness.

I kind of think he "ought to have done more" as he admits, but he's not a villain.