Just Shoot Me. And Hit Me. Stupid Stats, Vol MCMXX...

CBS News leads the Dash to Dumb in their coverage of the Aurora shooting:

(CBS News) The well-armed shooter in the Aurora movie theater massacre had a hit ratio twice what a police officer might achieve engaging with armed assailants in a street setting.

That suggests, says CBS News senior correspondent John Miller, that the suspect - who is believed to have planned his assault with precision -  practiced shooting prior to the attack on the theater audience last Friday.

First, it would hardly be surprising if we eventually learn the shooter practiced somewhere. However, the statistical foundation presented here is a bit sandy:

"Here's an individual who we see kind of lolling in court but who went into that theater, actually shooting and hitting with bullets more than 52 people of the 70 injured," said Miller on "CBS This Morning." "Here's a guy who went in with what we think was about 100 rounds; that gives him a 50 percent hit ratio.

"From law enforcement, when you go on the range and you're shooting at a paper target - it is standing still and waits for you - that's a 90 to 94 percent hit ratio in a lot of places. In combat shooting in the street, police officers often hit in ranges of 21 to 25 percent of their targets."

Let's accept that street fighting figure for the moment (the NY Times compares the LAPD and the NYPD and is closer to the low 30s, but whatever.)

First, the police officers in street incidents were firing at a small number of humans (presumably, "one" was the most common number of targets); the Aurora shooter was firing into a large crowd. Even without training, I bet I could hit the broad side of a barn at ten paces. Similarly, I imagine that the Auurora shooter had plenty of "hits" where he missed his aim point but hit a different person downrange. If I recall correctly, people in adjoining theatres were hit by bullets passing through the wall - were these really well-aimed shots that boosted his hit rate?

Secondly, the shooter used a shotgun and a rifle. Surely one shotgun blast or one rifle round into a crowd could hit multiple targets. Would a bullet that wounded three people give the shooter a hit rate (on that shot) of 300%? Do police officers often (or ever?) fire in situations where a hit rate of 200% or 300% is possible?

Did the shooter practice? Quite likely. Do these stats demonstrate that? No.

Comments

[centralcal]

Well, plus the targets are all packed like sardines, wedged into theater seats and minimal floor space to dive into - that might increase accuracy a wee bit.

[Rick Ballard]

The comparative would be low light scores by cops on a firing range. Theater management established a high probability of a free fire zone for the killer. His "score" might have been adversely affected if, like the cops, there was a strong possibility of the target shooting back.

Talk about stupid on stilts.

[NK]

What type of rifle did Holmes have, and what capacity magazine? Are there any 'sportsman' or self-defense uses for that type of gear?

[matt]

What morons. It was fish in a barrel. It's really hard to miss in a packed theater with a panicked crowd rushing for the exits.

The forensic people will be digging bullets out for weeks and will then assess the entire incident from interviews and the data.

Leave it to the morons to spout about things about which they know nothing.

By the way, with all I've been reading this sounds like a set up by the shooter from the outset. Acting crazy, sending a game plan to a prof, studying neuroscience, claiming amnesia.The whole thing stinks of some twisted bastard's well laid plans.

It sounds more to me like the man is a pure sociopath trying to get away with mass murder. The solution, to me, is to quietly and humanely snuff his life out, cremate the remains, and let him know his name will be purged before doing so.

No fame, no notoriety, and nothing left of his existence. Try going into the void like that, you bastard. Treat him like the lethal virus he is and discourager les autres.

[AliceH]

NK - -- what difference would it make if the answer to your question ("Are there any 'sportsman' or self-defense uses for that type of gear?") is "no" vs. "yes"?

[NK]

If the answer is 'no' what is the market for that type of gear? Who buys it? for what use?

[Jane - Get off the couch your country needs you!]

But of course....

REVEALED: Corzine’s MF Global Was A Client Of Eric Holder’s Law Firm

[Clarice]

well, if you insist on using math and logic to make your points.........

[Ignatz]

--Are there any 'sportsman' or self-defense uses for that type of gear?--

Some may be more suited than others but I'm having a hard time imagining any firearm or magazine not useful for self defense, as opposed to say no firearm.

[NK]

were the reports accurate that Holmes had a high capacity magazine, and either it or the rifle mechanism jammed? self-defense in case of home invasion or carjack, is a shotgun superior to a rifle?

[Charlie Martin]

NK, the rifle was an AR-15, which is more or less a .22 in ninja drag. (Really, .223/5.56mm) It had a 100 round cylindrical magazine, which proves he wasn't all that sophisticated because everyone who is sophisticated knows they jam, as this one in fact did.

And yeah, I've used an AR-15 for varmint hunting as a kid, as well as target shooting and the time-honored recreational plinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

[Charlie Martin]

I'm having a hard time imagining any firearm or magazine not useful for self defense,

[Charlie Martin]

So, was that a high-capacity printing press, Mr Franklin? Are there any legitimate hunting or personal publication uses for such a press?

[AliceH]

--what is the market for that type of gear?-- People who like having that kind of stuff.

--Who buys it?-- People who like having that kind of stuff who have the money to buy that kind of stuff.

--for what use?-- Having stuff one likes

BTW, my answers only seem flippant on the surface. They are real, legitimate and wholly sufficient answers. It's the questions that strike me as being untethered to some context or relevance.

[Ignatz]

Shotgun is always superior to a rifle at short range with the possible exception of someone with heavy body armor. And even then the shock of a shotgun round may have more immediate stopping power than a penetrating rifle round, especially a full metal jacket or other non expanding rifle bullet which expends most of its energy behind the initial target.

[Charlie Martin]

self-defense in case of home invasion or carjack, is a shotgun superior to a rifle?

Home invasion, yes -- a shotgun looks *real* impressive and makes very large holes. Carjacking, neither is great, because they're three feet long.

[Charlie Martin]

BTW, my answers only seem flippant on the surface. They are real, legitimate and wholly sufficient answers.

Exactly.

[Charlie Martin]

I wonder what happened to what I typed after the quote?

[Danube of Thought]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the police stats based on pistol shooting? And does it matter to these dopes that the targets at which the cops are shooting are much smaller than a human being (although in some instances they fire at an upper-body silhouette)?

A .223, although the same diameter, is a much different animal than an ordinary .22 Long Rifle. It's the M-16 round, and although some consider it underpowered it is a very lethal round.

[narciso]

They hid the piece, from their front page, but after this, I would say 'Untergang'

http://www.deadline.com/2011/10/john-miller-moves-to-cbs-news-from-government-intelligence-agencies/

[Charlie Martin]

Honestly, I suspect that even for pistol, getting a 94 percent hitting-the-target ratio would really worry me in stand-up range firing. I suspect some fool read that the average score is 94 and turned that into 94 percent hit ratio.

[Some guy]

"dash to dumb" is putting it charitably.

A cop is faced with a single target moving in and 'round innocents who he must NOT hit under any circumstance.

This is like saying the guy with the nail-gun at the slaughterhouse has a better hit ratio than a leopard hunter does at night.

So freak'n what.

[NK]

AR-15/Ninja Drag-- does the AR-15 variant have a significantly higher muzzle velocity, bullet weight/penetration, or rate of fire as compared to a conventional .223? What purpose does a 100 round magazine serve-- assuming it can be made to function reliably?

[Ignatz]

--A cop is faced with a single target moving in and 'round innocents who he must NOT hit under any circumstance.--

And he's usually facing someone who is either shooting back at him or has the capability of it.
Mr. Holmes pretty much knew he would not face that extremely complicating factor.

[Charlie Martin]

AR-15/Ninja Drag-- does the AR-15 variant have a significantly higher muzzle velocity, bullet weight/penetration, or rate of fire as compared to a conventional .223?

No, the ballistics are pretty much the same and it still only fires once per trigger pull.

What purpose does a 100 round magazine serve-- assuming it can be made to function reliably?

Holds more bullets.

As several people have noted recently, in self-defense you never here someone complain "Oh, damn, I didn't need all these bullets."

[Ignatz]

--AR-15/Ninja Drag-- does the AR-15 variant have a significantly higher muzzle velocity, bullet weight/penetration, or rate of fire as compared to a conventional .223?--

Depends of course on the load one uses but the AR 15 shoots pretty much all .223 ammo, some of it more reliably than others.

--What purpose does a 100 round magazine serve-- assuming it can be made to function reliably?--

To shoot 100 rounds without loading another magazine. See Alice's caveat. :)

[lyle]

Stupid effing press. OF COURSE a shooter will hit a lot of people...in a crowded theater! Particularly with a shotgun. Jackasses. Had there been ONE carrying person in that crowd it might have made some difference. Two or three would have stopped this very soon. And no, I'm not a wannabe Rambo with a vigilante streak. But I've trained one on one with a firearms instructor for over ten hours over several weeks. Any trained person, assuming he or she had a clear shot, could have emptied a cylinder or magazine in under 5 seconds into center mass. Even if the shooter was armored up--which now appears untrue--the force of five or six rounds into center mass would have slowed the shooter considerably. With the right caliber, the shots could conceivably knocked him down at a minimum.

[Ignatz]

NK,
Here's a good primer [hah] on the differences between the .223 Rem and the 5.56 NATO round.
In practical, noticeable terms there is close to zero difference.

[steve]

"Here's a guy who went in with what we think was about 100 rounds"

Is his calculation of the denominator simply based on reports that one of the weapons had a 100 round magazine? What about the capacity of his other weapons, the shotgun, pistols, etc.? Wouldn't it be more accurate to use the number of shots fired, rather than the number of rounds he went with?

And per Tom's post, shouldn't the denominator also be increased to reflect that shotgun cartridges have multiple 'shots'? Even discounting for the density spread pattern, firing a shotgun doesn't produce the same 'output' as a single pull of a rifle or pistol.

[NK]

AliceH@12:28-- context or relevance-- the only rifled weapon I ever fired was a stantion mounted .50cal M2 machine gun. Only 10-15 rounds in 3-5 round bursts in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. THAT was really fun, but I can't do that recreationally (not legally-- can I?). Are their firearms that serve no 'legitimate' purpose but can cause alot of mayhem that should be treated like M2 .50cals rather than sport or self-defense weapons. I think that's a fair and relevant context.

[NK]

their=there

[Danube of Thought]

I'm not sure about today's AR-15's, but the 60's-era M-16's were rifled to impart relatively low spin, such that the round in flight was on the edge of stability. This was deliberate, and resulted in the round tumbling on impact. Thus the 5.56mm round had better stopping power than the ballistics tables alone would indicate.

[AliceH]

It is this part of your questioning - "firearms that serve no 'legitimate' purpose" - that is the problem with getting any further with your questions. For one thing, you don't seem to consider anything other than hunting or self defense to be "legitimate". This is a premise that logically leads to justifying a requirement that aspiring gun owners to pass some sort of worthiness/necessity hurdle.

My imaginary conversation with govt official:
AliceH, do you hunt? No,sir.
Do you PLAN to hunt? No, sir.
Do you live in a high crime area? No, sir.
Do you have wild animals around? No, sir.

Sorry, AliceH - no gun for you. Just wanting one, no matter how small a calibre/power/barrel... just doesn't seem to serve a legitimate purpose. Request denied.

[Carol Herman]

He wasn't wearing bullet proof clothing.

Most of the reporting fails to notice that psycho's like this are born. We're in a free country. Colorado is both free and very liberal. And, in all probability this killer's mom is an ENABLER! She's also a nurse. So, as her son got stranger and stranger ... she searched for ways to get him into medical school. (You can't make this stuff up!)

He kept a detailed log setting out his plans. Which he mailed to a psychiatrist at the medical school. Who didn't even bother to check the mail room for packages.

Oh, and at Drudge, jailers are saying he is now claiming he has no idea why he is in jail! He's an amnesiac.

A long time ago psychos like this were brought into family court ... by the cops. Where the judge would inflict a 30-day evaluation. Not so much in Colorado?

What do you have to do to get labeled "crazier than a fruitcake?"

Back in the 1970's, when a killer who went into lover's lanes ... and killed couples making out ... And, he got arrested, finally ... (His name was Berkowitz). He was (and perhaps still is) housed at Kings Country's Psychiatric Hospital, i their prison unit.

An even better question: When will thorazine get administered?

Since what this crazy can do is known ... what are the chances that the State of Colorado is gonna blow it?

[Danube of Thought]

I'll say it again: I got more guns than I need, but not as many as I want.

[NK]

AliceH-- avoiding questions don't make the questions irrelevant. BTW-- by sporting I mean hunting and recreational target shooting. Personally-- I am most curious about 100 round magazines; is the question convenient recreational shooting by reducing the number of reloads, balanced against the potential capacity for mass murder?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Oh, hai.

I thoughts the press told me this gun fired like a hundred rounds at once. I was gonna be impressed the guy could hold all those barrels at once.

But an AR-15? That's one per pull on the trigger? Now I'm worried they're going to regulate sucrose and caffeine as obvious shootists enhancers.

[Melinda Romanoff]

That was a MFM rant, if it wasn't clear.

[Some guy]

There is no 'legitimate' reason to own a Prius.

Since over it's full life cycle, it's environmental footprint is worse than a standard small car and there are alternatives (available elsewhere) that deliver better real world fuel economy. Not to mention they are capable of KILLING someone.

So, since the only reason to own a Prius is to bolster the vanity of the driver, I believe they should be banned. The Prius doesn't even sell well in Europe! Therefore, there is no legitimate reason to own one.

'Legitimate' is wholly in the eye of the bolder, and very slippery slope.

[AliceH]

--avoiding questions don't make the questions irrelevant.--

True. Some questions get that way all by themselves.

[Melinda Romanoff]

SG-

Driving a mobile HazMat scenario is not my idea of a good investment either.

[Extraneus]

That's the same logic that led to the assault weapons ban and 10-round magazines, NK.

[Have Blue]

One fine day in the early 1770's the British set out from Boston to confiscate several wagon loads of Brown Bess muskets (the assault weapon of choice in those days) and an battery of light field artillery (the equivalent of several small howitzers) from the locals. This led to directly to some unpleasantness at Concord and Lexington.

But the question we have to ask is this:

Did the locals have any "legitimate" uses for those items?

[AliceH]

I can't believe our government allows anyone to own a car that goes faster than 75 mph. What legitimate purpose could they serve?

Plus there's not even a Constitutional amendment about car rights so don't need to worry about all the wingnuts/libertarian types getting all het up.

[David, infamous sockpuppet]

Over at Democratic Underground, they are having an entertaining little bit of fratricide in the comments to a glowingly enthusiastic post about how, at last Obama is starting to talk about gun control. Apparently not everyone over there is completely delusional in all areas of their lives as they are pointing out to their less informed zealots how even the appearance of playing the "let's grab the guns" card is going to piss of a lot of normally reliable Democratic and Union voters in places like Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio. The noted that the last time the Democratic Party went all in with gun control was 1994, and the Republicans took the House for the first time in 40 years that election.

We should all be praying that the gun grabbers get their wish and the President endorses a new round of gun control.

[Dublindave]

Dear Jesus in Heaven, shit for brains Romney has only gone and insulted the country that is kind enough to host him and his family on the first leg of his very first international tour as the presumptive GOP nominee.

He's not ready for prime time, he really isn't.

[NK]

SG-- 'Legitimate'-- I don't think that it is 'wholly' in the eye of the beholder-- there are facts and objective truths, not everything is subjective. I would put it this way, my own subjective opinion/values does not permit me to DElegitimize another's differing subjective opinion/values. Using your example, persoanlly I think Prius and other Hybrids are stupid and a terrible investment-- they are 'green' hype by carbuilders. That's my subjective opinion, but that doesn't allow me or society to ban someone from buying a Prius or other Hybrid. But what about objective externalities that aren't just subjective disagreements, but tangible harm from someone else's behavior. Of course we Delegitimize these, for 1000 years we have called them torts and criminal acts, and we give the victims of the objective injury recourse in court and protection through the State. The question is line drawing-- what is an objective harm as opposed to a personal value judgment. Is the convenience of a 100 round mag for lawful recreational shooters more important than keeping that gear out of the hands of a mass murderer. For me that's an important question of line drawing. AliceH-- she apparently doesn't care about stuff like that-- so she wants to impose her values and DElegitimize the question entirely. She's doing exactly what the NY Times and Mike Bloomberg do from the other side, in their opinion there is no legitinate gun ownership, so ban 'em all.

[Jane - Get off the couch your country needs you!]

How Dudu? Did he give the queen a CD of his speeches?

[narciso]

Earlier he wasn't buying the 'Norwegian Blue' but now he wants one more chance to 'pine for the fjords'

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/07/25/another-easing-option-the-fed-could-consider/

[Extraneus]

Obama calls for strengthening gun rules, Reid says no time for debate

"I believe the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms," Obama said. "But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not on the streets of our cities."

Two lies in one sentence. Impressive.

[Dave (in MA)]

I don't understand why police officers across this country don't stand up collectively and say, 'We're going to go on strike. We're not going to protect you unless you, the public, through your legislature, demand that we practice shooting our side arms until we're as good as a bozo-haired lunatic firing indiscriminately into a crowded theater."

[Extraneus]

White House Press Secretary Jay Carney clarified Thursday that the president is not necessarily talking about new laws.

"He believes that we can enhance the enforcement of existing laws by making it more difficult for those who should not have weapons under existing laws ... to obtain weapons," Carney said.

He noted that Obama supports the reinstatement of the assault weapons ban which expired in 2004, but said he wants to focus on strengthening background checks "given the stalemate in Congress."

[Have Blue]

Apparently Romney only called on British journalists at a press availability in Britain. The US press claims this is a breach of 'protocol' and an insult to the hosts.

Should have given them a bunch of DVDs they couldn't play, or a cheap IPod with his own maudlin inanities preloaded, or thrown in their faces the bust of a British hero once gifted to us by a grateful nation.

[Extraneus]

Is the convenience of a 100 round mag for lawful recreational shooters more important than keeping that gear out of the hands of a mass murderer.

Who said anything about recreational shooting? Why do you add that word to the sentence?

[NK]

75+MPH vehicles. That's easy line drawing; it wastes fuel and tire life, no material externality on others (on the margins, as there will be a slightly higher accident rate, but victims have recourse from negligence just like they would at a negligently operated 55MPH car). So the driver is free to waste his resources, it's not for society to dictate behavior to the wasteful driver.

10 round mag/'Assault weapon' ban?-- that was arbitrary line drawing by anti-gun ideologues. That arbitrary line drawing does not mean there are no appropriate lines to draw.

[Have Blue]

What's better - a 100 round magazine that will reliably jam and fail within a few rounds or three 33 round mags that take a half second to change and feed perfectly?

or ten 10 round magazines

or twenty 5 round magazines...

[MarkO]

I have an elephant gun, so I'm safe if an elephant attempts a home invasion.

[jpt]

Why does anyone need a car that drives over 55 mph? Why do so many people need an SUV when there is usually only 1 or 2 people in it? Those big fast hunks of metal can kill people. The faster and bigger the greater the potential harm.

[jpt]

Why do we need airplanes? Someone could fly them in to buildings. Can't people just use videoconferencing?

[matt]

One of the primary impetus for the 2nd Amendment, if you read Jefferson and others, was that a well armed militia would be able to resist an oppressive government.

That didn't work out to well with Shay's Rebellion. Nonetheless, the Constitution was voted on not long thereafter, so the power of the people over the government was one of the single most important principles of our national identity.

The Civil War on the other hand raised many battalions of well armed soldiery on both sides.

One of the greatest fears of the statists is resistance to their agenda. At the same time, if one allows access to serious firepower to all, one risks the loonies getting hold of them as well.

The 60's and 70's disestablished the mental hospitals in favor of individual liberty. The courts considered them cruel and unusual punishment. And yet if one goes to any skid row, a large percentage of the population cannot take care of themselves. In addition, our culture protects individuals who are generally agreed upon to be bat shit crazy as a part of our immutable rights, so the problem can be well defined.

At what point do we take away the sharp objects? I used to know a lot of seriously competitive shooters who smoked dope to steady them on the firing line including members of the Army team. Otherwise they were outstanding individuals. Under the law, they are not allowed to purchase firearms.

As long as the Colorado shooter didn't break the law he was free to buy anything he could get. 12 gauge with buckshot at close range is just about the most destructive weapon one can imagine. I am going to guess that 12 gauge shotguns are the single most popular firearm in the country. 12 gauges may also be one of the most popular murder weapons.

Why? because they are freely available. Do we ban 12 gauge shotguns then?

The answer may be to cross reference the prescription of serious psych meds to the federal firearms search database. But that then becomes a personal privacy issue.

Is the shooter's mother responsible for his ability to get through the system? Is the mother of a Mexican Mafia member responsible for their child's actions?

Unfortunately, the anti-gun crowd does not think most things through on many subjects. It's a knee jerk boogie man reaction, and the President is if anything, a knee jerk liberal.

So let's all go out to the range and blow the hell out of a Prius, as one of my good ole' boy friends would say.

[Some guy]

It was an insult to the host to only call on the host's press?

Sounds like it was more of an insult to the US press [yawn].

What am I missing?

[NK]

EX-- it's semantic. I actually used the word 'sporting' (in addition to self-defense) to ask my original question, and someone asked why I limited 'legitimate' firearms use to hunting, and I responded by saying by 'sporting' I meant hunting, target and other recreational shooting.

[Janet]

Brian Williams asking Romney if he is a "hidden man".
I hate, hate, hate the MFM.
Obama's whole narrative is phony & they are attacking Romney.
*The left are the haters, the racists, ...
*Obama is the "hidden man".
*The left earth worshipers are the ones forcing their religion on everyone.
*It is the Dems that rarely compromise.
*It is the Dems that are blocking action in Congress.
...and on, & on, & on.

[jpt]

" a stantion mounted .50cal M2 machine gun. Only 10-15 rounds in 3-5 round bursts in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. THAT was really fun, but I can't do that recreationally (not legally-- can I?)."

Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot (youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd0ppORwBog

Looks fun to me!!!

[Some guy]

Is the convenience of a 100 round mag for lawful recreational shooters more important than keeping that gear out of the hands of a mass murderer.

A. You can't keep it out the hands of a mass murderer. If you believe otherwise, that might be an issue in effectively thinking about the subject.

B. Given A, wouldn't it be 'legitimate' for the lawful individuals to be able to deal with mass murderers who have 100 rounds handy?

[Frau Zwitschern]

The preezy was holding back, Ext. He can deliver more than two lies in one sentence.

*Candidate* Barry depended on having a free rock concert and urinating on the U.S. at every stop. What brilliance!

[Danube of Thought]

"Romney has only gone and insulted the country that is kind enough to host him and his family"

Let me guess: he sent back a bust of Churchill?

[NO_LIMIT_NIGGA]

AliceH-- she apparently doesn't care about stuff like that-- so she wants to impose her values and DElegitimize the question entirely.

You really ought to just go back to writing apologia for the Penn State pedophile ring, NK.

[Frau Zwitschern]

OT- from the "Hire the Incompetent" files and the Daily Policy Digest using CBO stats:
Overpaid Unemployment Benefits Top $14 Billion

Overpayments are a rampant problem in the unemployment insurance system. The program boasts the second highest rate for "improper payments" of any federal program, behind the National School Lunch Program, and is now targeted for significant efforts to prevent fraud, both intentional and unintentional, says CNN Money.

Officials for unemployment insurance are quick to emphasize that the majority of improper payments are the result of clerical error and not malicious activity. With the employee, employer and government workers each filling out substantial amounts of paperwork, it's easy for a mistake to be made. Nevertheless, numerous cases of deliberate fraud have been uncovered.

The federal government and states overpaid an estimated $14 billion in benefits in fiscal 2011, or roughly 11 percent of all the jobless benefits paid out, according to reports from the U.S. Labor Department.
Of the overpaid funds, most end up in the hands of three types of people: those who aren't actively searching for a job, those who were fired or quit voluntarily, and those who continue to file claims even though they've returned to work.
A smaller fraction goes to those who are intentionally scamming the system: common cases often involve prison inmates, illegal immigrants or even the deceased.

IMHO all types mentioned are scamming the system.

[jpt]

"Let me guess: he sent back a bust of Churchill?"

No, based on his Olympic experience he expressed concern over security issues (highly publicized issues with private security firm over the last couple of weeks with only small amounts of security showing up - like 10% of expected). I guess the point by dd is that Obuma is not concerned about security.

[narciso]

Somethings are just crimethink, Janet, and some are just speaking 'truth to power'

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2012/07/26/abc-praised-free-speech-spirited-dixie-chicks-slams-chick-fil-firest

[Some guy]

he expressed concern over security issues

Apparently, he was also ungracious enough to mention that immigration folk there are threatening a strike... how dare he!!

[yawn]

[NK]

I looked at the Knob Creek Club video, it looked like Hue City during Tet 1968. How does a gun club possess and use fully automatic heavy caliber weapons?

[lyle]

"But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not on the streets of our cities."

Yes, because everyone knows the AK-47 is standard US Military issuance. Wait. It's Not?? Then who is he nattering about. His pals, the Jihadis?

[jpt]

"Over at Democratic Underground, they are having an entertaining little bit of fratricide in the comments to a glowingly enthusiastic post about how, at last Obama is starting to talk about gun control. "

Ooops, they are celebrating too soon about the spineless wonderboy...

AP: "Even as the issue of guns shifts to the forefront of the presidential campaign, the White House and the Senate's top Democrat made it clear Thursday that new gun legislation will not be on the political agenda this year. Instead, President Barack Obama intends to focus on other ways to combat gun violence - a position not unlike that of his rival, Mitt Romney."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PRESIDENTIAL_CAMPAIGN_GUNS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-26-13-32-22

[AliceH]

How can you dismiss "a slightly higher accident rate" of 75+MPH vehicles as being "on the margin", and yet find a dataset of ONE illegal use of a 100-round magazine to merit banning them entirely?

[hit and run]

Romney has only gone and insulted the country that is kind enough to host him

They asked him to release his tax returns and he refused?

[Threadkiller]

100 round magazines are too dangerous, people should only be allowed to own revolvers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

[Dublindave]

How Dudu? Did he give the queen a CD of his speeches?

If only. Time to send in the professionals to clean up Mitt's disaster. Several Obama aides have been deployed to Great Britian to ensure our friends that the United States of America has every confidence in their ability to host an Olympic games.

Where's Mitt off to next and can said aides shadow him to put a more professionally diplomatic spin on how he presents himself to the world?

[jpt]

This guy fires even faster (8 sec clip)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDjvhsdQoo

[GMAX]

Gosh if he had only been so worldly as to give the former Prime Minister (who is legally blind) some DVDs we could have seen his dazzling brilliance!

[Ignatz]

-- but I can't do that recreationally (not legally-- can I?--

NK,
Fully automatic weapons including M2 50 cal machine guns are subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934. If you pay the $200 excise tax and register it you may own fully automatic weapons in many states. In California and others it is a practical impossibility.
And one is able to purchase semi automatic versions of the M2 for around $10 large, which are legal in just about every state, again with the exception of my people's republic.

[jpt]

At least Obuma was able to bring the Olympics to America.

Maybe England should take some security tips from Obuma's hometown of Chicago with their Aurora every week security plan.

[GMAX]

I bet Mumbles Menino wishes he for once had not been so clear about his fascist tendencies. Isnt it great to watch these progs have to walk back their stupidity? Love it:

“I can’t do that. That would be interference to his rights to go there,” Menino said, referring to company president Dan Cathy, who drew the mayor’s wrath by going public with his views against same-sex marriage.

The mayor added: “I make mistakes all the time. That’s a Menino-ism.”

One Big Assed Mistake America

[Some guy]

Several Obama aides have been deployed to Great Britian

Talk about insulting the hosts...

[NK]

75+MPH-- I didn't dismiss risks from 75+MPH, I pointed out that existing civil and criminal laws can compensate victims of negligent driving. Many vehicles can be driven as safe, or more safely, at 75+ (or 100+) than poorly maintained street cars at 55MPH. The zealots who would ban high speed personal vehicles altogether claim it is wasteful, and shouldn't be allowed, even if it were safe. That to me is arbitrary subjective line drawing, I disagree with that. High volume magazines, we now know, pose a risk. Where should lines be drawn? I believe that is a legitimate question. I'll ask the question another, why NO line should be drawn for 100 round mags?

[NK]

Ig-- so in many states M2s, M60s, MG42s, Bren Guns, etc can be privately owned, registered and blasted away lawfully? I had no idea. Personally, I would pay a fair bit for live fire of an M2, especially nightime with incendiaries. Who sells these-- lawfully?

[narciso]

the bath salts in the watercooler do not help things over there;

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/bizarre-bear-arms-article-1.1121790

[Jane - Get off the couch your country needs you!]

"He believes that we can enhance the enforcement of existing laws by making it more difficult for those who should not have weapons under existing laws ... to obtain weapons,"

Did Jay suggest we ship them to Mexico?

[centralcal]

Several Obama aides have been deployed to Great Britian

Yep, Michelle is on her way to fulfill her official duties and to get the little Brit kiddies to Move their Fat Behinds.

[Cecil Turner]

On the 100 rd magazine thing, two points:

1. the Constitutional right to firearms is in relation to a militia, not sporting or recreation uses, so a personal military-type firearm is exactly what the law guarantees; and,
2. the military doesn't generally use 100 rd magazines precisely because they're unreliable. If he'd had a few 30-rounders (taped, natch), he'd probably have done more damage. His technique indicates a lack of training.

And I'm with DoT on the hit ratio comparison: the main issue (besides not having any actual data) is comparing rifles and pistols . . .

[NK]

Does anybody have a link to the quotes of what Romney supposedly said?

[Ignatz]

--Are their firearms that serve no 'legitimate' purpose but can cause alot of mayhem that should be treated like M2 .50cals rather than sport or self-defense weapons. I think that's a fair and relevant context.--

NK,
Have you read Heller or any of the extensive scholarly background behind it? You always omit an armed citizenry that can oppose an oppressive government, whether foreign or domestic, when listing 'legitimate' reasons for firearms ownership. That is the primary reason for the 2nd amendment, not sporting purposes and not even self defense, although the latter was a factor in its drafting.

[Chubby]

((Where's Mitt off to next and can said aides shadow him to put a more professionally diplomatic spin on how he presents himself to the world))

unfortunately I don't think anyone will ever be able to teach Mitt how to bow before a Saudi king. Oh well, we'll take him anyways

[GMAX]

Michelle is on her way

Really? Guarantee you its a plane change on the way to Paris or Zurich or some island on the Med. Expensive places. On YOUR nickel.

[henry]

Romney kerfluffle as covered by Sky News.

[centralcal]

Here is the Brit version, NK:

Romney - Questions UK Readiness

[Ignatz]

--Personally, I would pay a fair bit for live fire of an M2, especially nightime with incendiaries. Who sells these-- lawfully?--

Here, NK.
I believe you can get full auto from them as well. If not there are others.

[Porchlight]

Yep, Michelle is on her way to fulfill her official duties and to get the little Brit kiddies to Move their Fat Behinds.

And put her arm around the Queen.

[Threadkiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw