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July 26, 2012

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matt

Ig;

I have a buddy in Alaska who could outfit a company, including a couple of MG 42's, probably the best ever made. He's a retired armorer, so it's a professional thing. Sure....

One of funniest juxtapositions i had recently was being on base at Ft. Knox sitting at a Starbucks on the cell phone with a full range of M 240's and 249's in the background. It sounded like a WW II movie.

Soylent Red

A .223, although the same diameter, is a much different animal than an ordinary .22 Long Rifle. It's the M-16 round, and although some consider it underpowered it is a very lethal round.

This. Also, 5.56 rounds are jacketed.

A 5.56 round is a relatively small bullet pushed forward by a lot of powder, generating a lot of kinetic energy. I've looked at chunks of meat shot with 5.56 rounds and with 7.62 x 39 (the type of bullet used in AKs and SKSs). 7.62 has more initial penetrating power but the damage and exit wounds are nearly identical.

This was deliberate, and resulted in the round tumbling on impact. Thus the 5.56mm round had better stopping power than the ballistics tables alone would indicate.

An M-16A1/M-4 is designed to fire the bullet slightly upward to develop a ballistic arc or trajectory. Gravity catches the bullet on the downward slope of the arc causing it to "tumble", which imparts energy onto the bullet in the last half of the trajectory. Thus it flies truer, further, than a bullet that flies on a flat trajectory because it utilizes gravity to help propel it on the last half of the trajectory.

This doesn't make any difference in the kinds of ranges you would have inside of a movie theater. The bullet would still be in its upward movement until it gets out to about 150 yds. An amateur can essentially "paint" a target with the front sight and hit it somewhere. If you are aiming for the center of mass, you will hit a person someplace on the torso.

Where this kind of shooting becomes unreliable is when the shooter is nervous and makes mechanical errors or rushes shots (things like jerking the trigger or holding your breath). Handgunners in particular, including law enforcement, have a very bad hit/miss ratio even inside 10 yds because shooting people is a high stress activity and the body doesn't help you be a good shot in stressful situations. It works against you.

The way around these problems is training yourself to follow proper mechanics and to use certain techniques that mitigate the physiological responses to stress. The mechanics part is simply good practice repetitions. The physiological part is laid out in various places on the internet and most notably in a widely read book called "On Killing" and its companion book "On Combat". These two books would certainly be available and possibly known to a neuroscience grad student.

As for the legitimacy of owning an assault rifle, the only legitimacy I need was given to me by God in the form of my inalienable rights. Free citizens are not required to ask permission from their government to practice these rights. Subjects on the other hand...

AliceH

NK: Let's stipulate for now that buying a high performance car and a 100-round mag are equally dopey things to waste money on.

We've already essentially agreed that speeding vehicles can result in death or injury to innocent people and property. I'll add that the same can be said for 100-round magazines.

Why does existing civil and criminal law compensate for one but not the other? Why does the fact that "many are safely driven" act as a mitigator to one and not the other? Why is the highly documented risk of secondary fatalities due to cars dismissed and the "high volume magazines" repeatedly declared to pose a risk?

You ask where the line should be drawn, and why NO line should be drawn. You're not listening to the people answering.

The answer to both questions are
1) because no line will reduce the risk of any given capacity magazine being used in a mass shooting -- criminals do not obey laws and
2) because any line does reduce the choice and freedom of non-criminal individuals.

You can certainly disagree with either or both of those answers, however... If you're going to take away some rights on the purported basis of increasing security, you need to substantially prove that security will in fact be improved. I believe all the actual data is against this, though.

NK

Ig-- although I know nothing about gun ownership, I am familiar with Heller and Miller. Is the 100 round magazine a militia weapon, or a legitimate personal defense weapon or sport equipment protected by the 2nd amendment or a gangster/mass murderer weapon that's subject to federal regulation? Don't know, but the fact that I can't answer that immediately, doesn't mean we shouldn't think carefully about rights and duties. In another context, the SCOTUS said the Constitution is not a suicide pact -- I think that's true here.

Threadkiller

Saved the best for last...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbWDqbnLApY

Captain Hate

I've always claimed the NOI rivals Scientology on being based on really really bad science fiction: http://weaselzippers.us/2012/07/26/farrakhan-all-white-people-should-be-scientologists-to-prevent-them-from-being-devil-christians-and-satan-jews/

matt

London is plenty to Moochelle's taste as we already know. The shopping is simply divine with all the sheikhs and Russian mobsters and other oligarchs and plutocrats demanding the best and all.

The VIP section of the stadium for the Opening Ceremony is about the most dense population of leadership in the world. Not only royalty, but heads of state and their representatives as well.

With this and athlete security, overall security is probably the most essential function of a Games these days.

In Seoul, Special Forces troops patrolled the perimeter of the Olympic Village in full combat rig. And they are always around at every Games.They were paranoid about NoKo's and the bunch of them are generally crazy anyway. Other Games were much better at concealing the security. I pray that London is remembered for the smiling bobbies more than anything else.

Romney has the experience as a former president of a Games, and was quite proper in voicing his concern. It has been headline news in the UK. they are dragooning combat troops just returned from Afghanistan who are slated to be paid off ignominiously to replace minimum wage security guards because the security company screwed up so badly.

Janet

That is a great point, narciso....Chick-fil-A is just speaking "truth to power".

NK

Alice@2:53-- all fair points, but I would note that automobiles for personal use that exceed 75MPH have been routinely available for at least 66 years, and despite the millions of 75+ MPH vehicles, I don't know of any mass murder by vehicle because of its high speed capability. So the high speed capability is wasteful, but not an inherent risk for mass murder. In contrast, we have at least one case where a 100 round mag was used for mass murder. I have been listening, and it's clear that a better prepped madman would have taped together more reliable 30 round mags and murdered more people. I understand that; but what if technology or craftsmanship improve and 100 round, or 1000 round mags become cheap and reliable. The inherent danger from such a product has to be considered in line drawing. All of your arguments are fair points for no new laws about mag capacity, but I think society needs to have the debate about mag size. BTW-- I assume I will be persuaded that new laws would be useless and only supported by antigun ideologues, so they shouldn't be adopted. But I do want to hear another side.

Ignatz

--An M-16A1/M-4 is designed to fire the bullet slightly upward to develop a ballistic arc or trajectory. Gravity catches the bullet on the downward slope of the arc causing it to "tumble", which imparts energy onto the bullet in the last half of the trajectory. Thus it flies truer, further, than a bullet that flies on a flat trajectory because it utilizes gravity to help propel it on the last half of the trajectory.--

Hate to differ with Soylent who is about three times as smart as me,
but given a barrel parallel to the theoretical horizon all bullets begin to drop in a parabolic curve the instant they leave the muzzle.
When a rifle is sighted in to hit dead on at any range beyond the muzzle the barrel must be elevated beyond the horizon so that it will in fact shoot higher than the sights indicate closer than the range its sighted in for.

Even slow twist rifling spins the bullet at incredible RPMs.
The "tumbling" bullet theory was advanced to possibly increase the size of the wound channel once it hit tissue, not in flight. A tumbling bullet in flight would be so inaccurate as to be useless.
All FMJ bullets will tend to tumble in soft tissue at the right velocity. I don't think the 5.56 has proven to be any better at this than most any other high velocity round.

Cecil Turner

Is the 100 round magazine a militia weapon, or a legitimate personal defense weapon or sport equipment protected by the 2nd amendment or a gangster/mass murderer weapon that's subject to federal regulation?

Well, if it's effective, it's probably the former. If not . . .

But banning an ineffective weapon would just make mass murderers more effective. That can't be the goal, can it? If you actually wanted to save people, the last few of these shootings suggests the best bet may be banning "gun free zones." That's worth a look, right?

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

What type of rifle did Holmes have, and what capacity magazine? Are there any 'sportsman' or self-defense uses for that type of gear?

If the answer is 'no' what is the market for that type of gear? Who buys it? for what use?

were the reports accurate that Holmes had a high capacity magazine, and either it or the rifle mechanism jammed? self-defense in case of home invasion or carjack, is a shotgun superior to a rifle?

AR-15/Ninja Drag-- does the AR-15 variant have a significantly higher muzzle velocity, bullet weight/penetration, or rate of fire as compared to a conventional .223? What purpose does a 100 round magazine serve-- assuming it can be made to function reliably?

How does a gun club possess and use fully automatic heavy caliber weapons?

Ig-- so in many states M2s, M60s, MG42s, Bren Guns, etc can be privately owned, registered and blasted away lawfully? I had no idea.

Ig-- although I know nothing about gun ownership

It is truly impressive to see how outrageously ignorant NK is on every aspect of the topic he's attempting to lecture knowledgeable people about.

matt

Soylent;

I am going to propose a new show to NPR to replace Car Talk. There's an old Marine gunny I know we call Dr. Velocity who is one of the saltiest and most esoteric ballistics experts I've heard of. Gun talk would be a natural. One week could be a history of Browning firearms; the next combat shooting; the next proper reloading practices.

Frick & Frack, the doubletap brothers.

He could discuss burn rates and gas expansion of 100 different gun powders and their applications in every kind of shot, especially sporting clays and could invite in all sorts of interesting folk like the guy who made the 1.7 mile shot in Afghanistan.

I think it could reel in a whole new audience for NPR and prove their 2nd Amendment credentials, defusing the anger of the more conservative audience they are losing. Naaaahhh....

NK

SkyNews report-- thanks for the link. I think Romney was mildly impolitic refering to London2012 organizing issues in talking with the idiots at NBC. I think Romney agrees, the Sky report shows he quickly backtracked this morning.

Cirilla family Video-- holy moly, how much does the ammunition cost for that shootfest? They pretty much had every weapon I would like to fire (M14/30cal, SAW, M1937.30cal, M2) all but the Vehrmacht MG42.

AliceH

I appreciate your 3:12, NK. Thanks.

NK

No-Limit-- you're an A-Hole

NK

AliceH-- you're very welcome.

Ignatz

--Frick & Frack, the doubletap brothers.--

LOL, matt.

--All of your arguments are fair points for no new laws about mag capacity, but I think society needs to have the debate about mag size.--

It already did, NK. The Feds banned them for a time and then legalized them again. Some of the blue hells still ban them. Those blue hells have very high crime and murder rates.

BTW, two FYIs,
1. No machine gun manufactured after 1986 may be owned by civilians thanks to Charlie Rangel's crookedeness and Reagan's inattention and,
2.Since 1934 when private ownership of machine guns was first restricted there have been two, possibly three murders, in which a legal NFA gun was used and one of those was a cop shutting an informant up. And there are well over 100,000 privately owned NFA weapons in civilian hands. I'd say that's a pretty good record; a lot better than any automobile's.

NK

Ig-- the Fed ban-- are you refering to the "Assault Weapon" law? didn't that ban mags in excess of 10 rounds. That law expired, so 'legalized' is a bit semantic.

Dublindave

Several Obama aides have been deployed to Great Britian

Talk about insulting the hosts...


It was actually kind of sad watching Romney have to walk back his comments in front of a Foreign media. They seemed taken aback, which tells you how unaware they are of Multiple-Mitt whose entire campaign has been spent clarifying what he said, what he meant, what position he held and why he changed it umpteen times.


I urge you to watch his walk-back...the fear in his eyes when faced with a Foreign media (who savaged him today) ...like a deer caught in the headlights......completely out of depth.

And it seems he forgot the Labour leader's name. Oh well, on to Poland and Israel. Not much can go wrong there.

Dublindave

sorry...out of his depth....

Jane - Get off the couch your country needs you!

LOL Dudu. I actually feel sorry for you being is such desperate need of attention. Don't worry. It won't last.

NK

The Labour Leader's name? very few people in the UK know the Labour Leader's name. And with Scottish independence coming, there will no longer be a Labour Party in England/Wales/NI, because they lose all their seats from the slums of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Ignatz

--Ig-- the Fed ban-- are you refering to the "Assault Weapon" law? didn't that ban mags in excess of 10 rounds. That law expired, so 'legalized' is a bit semantic.--

When it was up for renewal Feinstein and others attempted to have it renewed and failed.
Prior to its expiration, manufacturing and selling new high capacity magazines was illegal and afterwards they were legal, because of actual votes taken in congress. Sounds like 'legalized' to me.

Sara

In discussing the best weapon for someone in my situation, who can't run away and where one push would cause me to lose my balance and fall, the gun dealer said the shotgun is the only way to go. It works best for someone who is chair or bed bound even if there is no time to aim. A quick point and fire in the general direction will generally hit the person even without true aim.

narciso

The Brothers Miliband, like that of their Marxist academic father, Ralph, which gives you a notion, how out of it, they are.

tollhouse

I haven't seen this out there more, but the shooter wasn't using the drum magazine in the shooting. The pictures from the scene show that the AR-15 had a standard 30 round magazine.

See here.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/vcboards/viewtopic.php?p=329541&sid=65706ef5c2d9dd35582aba22ccec1809

Soylent Red

Ignatz:

but given a barrel parallel to the theoretical horizon all bullets begin to drop in a parabolic curve the instant they leave the muzzle.

M16A1/2/3 barrels are not parallel to the ground. They are tilted slightly upward. The bullet actually follows a very shallow parabola to targets past 150 m. This was done to give greater range and accuracy to a smaller bullet. In fact, you have a different aiming point on targets inside the 150 m range because the bullet travels upward as it leaves your firing station and never has time to start back down the parabola.

Again, I can assure you that after 150 m, the exit wounds and tissue damage are very similar to the larger, flat trajectory 7.62 round. Small and fast vs big and slow, or the difference between getting hit by Mike Tyson's fist or Bruce Lee's.

Also, what I was talking about was ballistic tumble, which is the point where gravity begins to alter the path of the projectile (in the case of a 5.56 pulling it downward toward the aiming point). This is different than yaw, or the tumble of the bullet after it hits the target. Also, you are correct in pointing out that yaw was considered primarily for how large of a path the bullet would make through a human target. 5.56 bullets tend to fragment more than 7.62 causing additional damage.

But this is all long range shooting stuff that has no bearing to what the majority of gunfights look like. Inside a building you are aiming directly at the target, a little below center mass, putting the front sight right at the solar plexus dimple in the chest. That will get you a torso hit every time at that range with an exit wound roughly the size of a baseball.

Stephanie

High volume magazines, we now know, pose a risk. - NK

WTF? A magazine holds no risk. It is the shooter that is the risk.

Might help if you held fire til you were over the proper target.

Next you'll be all for banning spoons and forks cause they contribute to obesity.

Sorry NK, but you really reveal your having bought into the liberal's memes when you start talking about guns whether in this context or the Zimmerman affair.

ANY abridgement of our rights in the name of safety is a loss of liberty. You might want to study up on the founding fathers and their thoughts on this subject.

I had this discussion with a fairly conservative person last weekend about TSA and their groping habits. That person was all for the groping as 'freedom isn't free' (her husband is retired military - currently in Astan doing contractor work) and she was proud to be subjected to the 'price' of the groping for security (claims she is more subject to it since their passports show lots of international travel and that we 'naive' Americans should really catch up on the security curve to other countries :eyeroll:). When I pointed out the fail rate of the security and said she was being lulled into a false sense of security by the groping, she said she 'felt safer.'

Probably like the folks that are pushing for 'gun free zones.'

Smoke and mirrors, both.

And both instances are not 'the price of freedom.' That some people are confused about this phrase is not surprising. The price of freedom is vigilance to our responsibilities as citizens, not some TSA agent getting their jollies patting us down and not some gun free zone or limits on gun magazines that make us feel safer.

Sara

Romney headed up the Olympics just after 9/11 and security was Job One. How quickly everyone forgets what those days were like and how much of Romney's time and attention was on making the games safe. I don't know why his remarks should be taken as anything but a man who has been there and done that opining on security, especially since London is a hotbed of terrorism and the British seem incapable of dealing with it or even admitting it possible. After the insults that Obama has thrown their way, I would say it takes idiots to find fault with Romney.

Stephanie

I would say it takes idiots to find fault with Romney.

Well, I looked up idiot on the internet and found Duda pictured. Granted it was a stick figure self portrait...

narciso

Well I would say thte governing and media class, seem to be oblivious to what is happening in their corner of Londonistan, as Melanie Phillips dubbed it,

Soylent Red

Granted it was a stick figure self portrait...

Nice to hear the doctors finally gave him his crayons back.

jimmyk

Romney's remarks seem pretty innocuous, but I suppose one could argue that in the world of international relations, one has to be extra careful. I suspect we would have ridiculed Obama for this faux pas, so fair is fair, though at least Romney actually knows what he's talking about, unlike Barry. In any case, a tempest in a teapot.

Clarice

Nearby Takoma Park, Md, prides itself as a "nuclear free zone". DC is practically a gun free zone despite losing in Ct. I think I'm going to post a sign on my lawn saying "jihadi and crime free zone", that should keep me safe/

Ranger

given a barrel parallel to the theoretical horizon all bullets begin to drop in a parabolic curve the instant they leave the muzzle.

The ballistics of an M16 round are significantly different.

This is why, going all the way back to Vietnam, vets tell the new troops to aim for the knees at close range. Between the natural tendancy to fire higher then you are aiming, and the designed rise of the round as flies leaving the weapon, if you aim for the center of the chest with an M16, the round will fly over the target's head.

Ignatz

--M16A1/2/3 barrels are not parallel to the ground. They are tilted slightly upward.--

Interesting. Do you mean when the weapon is parallel the barrel isn't?
Why don't they just build or adjust the sights so that when you wish to be dead on at 150 yards you must hold the entire weapon above parallel like every other gun ever made?

NK

Liberal Meme-- moi? Non. I am an absolutist on very few things. Commercially available 100 round mags is certainly not something I'm absolutist about, hence I believe in gathering evidence and line drawing in this case. The problem with absolutism is it leads to foolishness and then oppression. Look at Mike Bloomberg, his absolutism makes him look the fool, but more importantly, the next Leftwing mayor of NYC will use the precedent of Bloombergs silly self-indulgent absolutism for real oppression. That's why I reject overbroad absolutism.

NK

JimmyK-- Romney on NBC was mildly impolitic, because he's in the UK, Poland and Israel for a specific political purpose, to show American voters he'll renew friendships with friendly nations that 'Bam has gratuitously pissed on. By being mildly critical about Brit Olympic prep is contarry to Romeny's political purpose. He was right to quickly backtrack and appease the Brit media, because it serves his political purposes to do so.

narciso

Exactly, 'thousands standing around' is not about protecting liberty, but arbitrary infringement of same, It must that Iowa munitions cartel, that makes life in Chicago
so difficult, after all Prince Emmanuel wouldn't deign to let such things happen.

Frau Zwitschern

The Founding Fathers called for an informed citizenry. I come to a presidential campaign and this is what I get:
Ann Romney may have a little bit of fashion catch-up to play when it comes to potentially filling the shoes of our current FLOTUS, but she got off to a good start on Monday in Iowa, rocking -- are you ready? -- four different hot trends."
This and mom jeans. Carpus magnus!

Rocco

"We'll take one step at a time, and the first is necessarily - given the political realities - very modest. We'll have to start working again to strengthen the law, and then again to strengthen the next law and again and again. Our ultimate goal, total control of handguns, is going to take
time. The first problem is to slow down production and sales. Next is to get registration. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and ammunition (with a few exceptions) totally illegal.”

Pete Shields, Chairman, Brady Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Campaign

Ignatz

--the designed rise of the round as flies leaving the weapon--

A bullet can only rise if the barrel is elevated above the parallel. Any rifle sighted in to zero at any distance past the muzzle will by the laws of physics shoot high at any range nearer then the zero.
For instance a typical 30 06 will shoot approximately 3 inches high at 100 yards if it is sighted into zero at 300 yards.
By sighting the rifle to be dead on at 300 yards, when the crosshairs [a scoped rifle obviously, but the same holds true for iron sights] are put on the bullseye, the rifle is held in a slightly upward posture which is typically not even felt by the shooter. This is to overcome the pull of gravity which cause the bullet to begin dropping the instant it leaves the barrel.
Why any rifle would be designed with a barrel that is not parallel to the rifle when that is the entire point of sights is beyond me, but I'm always willing to allow as how I'm often wrong.

jpt

Speaking of foreign screw ups...ZING!

"At an event in London, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney said, "I'm looking forward to the bust of Winston Churchill being in the Oval Office again."

Mitt Romney at London fundraiser: "I'm looking forward to the bust of Winston Churchill being in the Oval Office again." #watersedge?

— Kasie Hunt (@kasie) July 26, 2012

President Obama famously sent Churchill's bust back to Britain soon after coming into office. As the Telegraph reported then:

A bust of the former prime minister once voted the greatest Briton in history, which was loaned to George W Bush from the Government's art collection after the September 11 attacks, has now been formally handed back.

The bronze by Sir Jacob Epstein, worth hundreds of thousands of pounds if it were ever sold on the open market, enjoyed pride of place in the Oval Office during President Bush's tenure.

But when British officials offered to let Mr Obama to hang onto the bust for a further four years, the White House said: "Thanks, but no thanks."
"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/romney-looking-forward-bust-winston-churchill-being-oval-office-again_649021.html

Porchlight

Look at Mike Bloomberg, his absolutism makes him look the fool, but more importantly, the next Leftwing mayor of NYC will use the precedent of Bloombergs silly self-indulgent absolutism for real oppression.

And the next gun grabber will use a ban on 100 round magazines as precedent for the next gun grab.

That's why you have to be an absolutist on the important stuff.

Duh.

Stephanie

You still don't get it. There is no "line drawing" when talking about inalienable rights. They are immutable. They weren't given to you by the government and therefore aren't subject to "line drawing." They were 'given from God' or the creator or the UFO traveling planet creators. Whatever. But they cannot be abridged.

Any dilution of those rights by the government grants government control over something that it can't have control over for a free people. Might as well say you're going to go with a value of 2 for pi as it's close enough for government work. It isn't and it's not.

This isn't something that is absolutist or not absolutist. Inalienable rights just are.

Cecil Turner

M16A1/2/3 barrels are not parallel to the ground. They are tilted slightly upward. The bullet actually follows a very shallow parabola to targets past 150 m.

Not sure where you're getting this, but all bullets follow a [practically] parabolic path. A "flat trajectory" is a term referring to a faster bullet (which has a less curved or "flatter" trajectory than a slower one) . . . not a bullet that actually shoots in a straight line, which is impossible. Here's a decent basic description with a good illustration.

Extraneus

I think you have it backwards, NK. Bloomberg isn't an absolutist. He's just gathering evidence and drawing reasonable lines for the benefit of all.

windansea

funny that the same Brit media that just last week was running 100's of stories critical of Olympic security, organization, enthusiam etc are upset with Mitt's mild criticism.

homie 1 "my momma, she a crack ho"

homie 2 "you right about dat bro"

homie 1 "what u say suckah"

Threadkiller

This was posted a few days ago.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/07/m-did_barack_obama_underreport_his_income_to_irs.html

"President Barack Obama released his recent personal finance records in 2008, which included his 2004 U.S. Individual Income Tax Return and Senate Annual Finance Report. President Obama's records for 2004 do not reconcile with the State of Illinois Comptroller's Office. There are inconsistencies in the total compensation received as an Illinois State Senator..."
There are plenty of links in the article but none to the comptroller or the information gained from the comptroller.

Any ideas on how to find the sourcing?

Extraneus

Could it be that the Brit liberal media is happy to take a shot at Romney? Is the Telegraph all over him?

No.

narciso

The Huffington Post, and 'informed citizenry,'
is a Vizzini sized category error, with some exceptions like Mayhill Fowler.

hit and run

AP: Victims' families urge less usage of Holmes' name Including the headline, the article mentions the shooter's name 13 times. To be fair, the thrust of the article, and the quotes from the victims' families focus on television coverage. But still.

Bill in AZ sez it's time for Obama/Holder murder trial in Mexico

I think where Soylent is coming from with the parallel comment is that M16's/AR15's are designed to be easy to set a battlefield zero. For the shorter barrel versions, set to 300M, but sight in on a target at 25 meters, and it is good to 300+ meters, 25 meters and 300 meters being the crossover points of the parabola. Slightly different for the 20 inch barrel, but still simple to remember, 30 and 300. The idea is that you are inside a 9 inch dinner plate for the whole range, though at 150 meters, you might be as much as 5-7 inches high.

windansea

Extraneus | July 26, 2012 at 04:28 PM

dudu confuses the Guardian with the world press

NK

4:17 and the Shields quote @4:11 are 2 sides of the same absolutist mentality IMO. The framers frankly did not consider 100 round mags or other mass killing machines in adopting the 2nd Amendment to protect the individual liberty interest in private ownership of weapons. Happily Heller was rightly decided and the 2nd has been correctly interpreted as an individual right, but even that individual right has some limits. Why does the liberty interest in possessing 100 round mags outweigh the right to a collective defense against mass murder? What are the objective reasons?

Stephanie

Any dilution of those rights by the government grants government control over something that it can't have control over for a free people.

And I will follow on with not only 'can't' it have control over inalienable rights, it is a fool's folly for a government (or anyone) to attempt to do so. Inalienable rights are as indelibly imprinted on the universe as the laws of physics. You might even call them the laws of man and similarly written into the fabric of the universe by the Gods.

To attempt to abridge them brings to mind that old commercial... you can't fool mother nature. A reminder that you can fool yourself into attempting control over that which can't be controlled (government) or subsuming your most basic (inalienable) rights to another (subject) to usurp the universe's position in that power hierarchy. Men are not gods and have no business playing at being them. Whether they be rule makers (attempting to limit inalienable rights for safety or community or the greater good) or the rule breakers (those who seek to abridge another's inalienable rights for gain of an advantage over others). Both are an abomination before the universe.

Bill in AZ sez it's time for Obama/Holder murder trial in Mexico

"Why does the liberty interest in possessing 100 round mags outweigh the right to a collective defense against mass murder? What are the objective reasons?"

In case the feds under the jugeared commie's orders come after us with 200 round magazines.

NK

Ex@4:22-- sarcasm is just avoiding the subject. The 3 arguments against any limitation against 100 round mags that have been posted I would summarize as; 1. useless regulation, the standard 30 round mags are potentially more deadly; 2. slippery slope; and 3. any regulation abridges inalienable rights which are absolute and can never be regulated. Any others that I missed?

Chubby

((What are the objective reasons?
))

if a fascist left government ever gets ahead of itself and turns on its citizens, which power grabbers being what they are, is not beyond the rational bounds of thought, I don't think hunting rifles would be that effective a protection against their superior firepower. don't you agree?

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

No-Limit-- you're an A-Hole

I find being an A-Hole preferable to being an ignorant, gun-grabbing pedophile apologist.

You can keep pointing out I'm the former, I'll keep pointing out you're the latter.

Captain Hate

Nearby Takoma Park, Md, prides itself as a "nuclear free zone".

So cancer patients receiving radiation treatments have to go somewhere else?

NK

For the liberty absolutists: how can voter ID laws be justified. They impose conditions on -- and therefore by definition abridge-- the inalienable right to vote for the government that will act with the consent of the People.

Janet

A Morsi-Napolitano Jihadist Pipeline to America?

I wonder too who is coming into America legally. The muslim population seems to be booming here in the DC area. Hijabs all over.

Porchlight

The framers frankly did not consider 100 round mags or other mass killing machines in adopting the 2nd Amendment to protect the individual liberty interest in private ownership of weapons.

The Constitution does not list the weapons and "mass killing machines" that the framers considered. What is the Constitutional basis for banning any weapon?

but even that individual right has some limits.

None are enumerated in the 2nd amendment.

Why does the liberty interest in possessing 100 round mags outweigh the right to a collective defense against mass murder?

There is no collective defense against mass murder, and even if there were, the right to bear arms may not be infringed - as plainly stated in the Bill of Rights.

NK

4:43-- the difference is that the former is true, AND you revel in it.

Elliott

Cameron and Johnson's remarks were more revelatory than Romney's blunt, ill-advised observations. The absence of any effort to downplay the critical comments seems to reflect the prevailing sentiment among British and European politicos, not groups historically renowned for keen senses of the American political scene, that Romney is a doomed challenger. Were they to take the possibility of a Romney administration more seriously, I suspect they would have struck a more conciliatory tone.

It is worth noting too that among British Conservatives there are many supporters and not a few admirers of Obama. Even the otherwise sensible D. Hannan endorsed him in 2008.

The shopping is simply divine with all the sheikhs and Russian mobsters and other oligarchs and plutocrats demanding the best and all.

Have you heard the one about the Russian oligarch who told his wife he wanted to be buried inside Harrods? "At least then you'll visit me three times a week."

Danube of Thought

What Bill in Az says is true for every rifle. Gravity begins to affect the bullet the instant it leaves the muzzle, and its force is constant. Any normally sighted rifle aligns the bore above the line of sight. The higher the muzzle velocity (and the better the bullet configuration maintains that velocity) the longer the near-parabola (it's not a true parabola because the bullet slows down in flight due to air resistance).

Every hunter is familiar with this phenomenon. Sight in a .30-'06 two inches high at 100 yards and you can get a heart shot by holding dead on at anywhere from 50 to 200 yards.

Captain Hate

For the liberty absolutists: how can voter ID laws be justified

They prevent election fraud which is a crime against every citizen.

Stephanie

but even that individual right has some limits. Why does the liberty interest in possessing 100 round mags outweigh the right to a collective defense against mass murder? What are the objective reasons?

The greater good. Spit.

Again, an inalienable right cannot be bound by limits. It is immutable. Might want to rethink your station in the order of the universe. You and every other person on earth has those inalienable rights. NOONE can take them away. You can choose to give them up, but why would you chose to make yourself less than the universe intends?

Or do you think those words were chosen because they sounded pretty? Those old doods were precise and argued over every word and which word to use. They chose inalienable for a reason. And it wasn't to grant the government control over these immutable rights. They recognized a higher order for those rights than government which is not subject to government interference. The government has no say. Period.

pagar

"Talk about a gaffe and a tell, “AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals.” To the millions of American veterans who have faced multiple enemies around the globe who were armed with the AK 47, this is such a huge admission of where the loyalties of our supposed commander-in-chief lie as to make one want to choke. The President of the United States of America just identified what he believes to be the weapon of choice for military forces and guess what? It is in fact the weapon of choice of America’s enemies."

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=31077

Unbelievable!

Threadkiller

Helluva story at the link.

"Those who took up arms in Athens, Tennessee, wanted honest elections, a cornerstone of our constitutional order. They had repeatedly tried to get federal or state election monitors and had used armed force so as to minimize harm to the law-breakers, showing little malice to the defeated law-breakers. They restored lawful government.

The Battle of Athens clearly shows how Americans can and should lawfully use armed force and also shows why the rule of law requires unrestricted access to firearms and how civilians with military-type firearms can beat the forces of government gone bad.

Dictators believe that public order is more important than the rule of law. However, Americans reject this idea. Brutal political repression is lethal to many. An individual criminal can harm a handful of people. Governments alone can brutalize thousands, or millions.

Law-abiding McMinn County residents won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control " They showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the rule of law."

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm

Porchlight

They impose conditions on -- and therefore by definition abridge-- the inalienable right to vote for the government that will act with the consent of the People.

The right to vote is reserved for United States citizens 18 years or over. Voter ID laws provide a mechanism to ensure eligibility at the polling place. Thus they secure the right to vote; they do not abridge it.

*No*t having a mechanism by which to ensure eligility at the polling place is actually what abridges citizens' right to vote, because when ineligible people are allowed to vote, the value of each citizen's vote is lessened.

NO_LIMIT_NIGGA

4:43-- the difference is that the former is true, AND you revel in it.

Looks like people here are starting to recognize that the latter is true, too.

Danube of Thought

"...the inalienable right to vote"

There is no such right in the constitution. Apart from constitutional provisions about age and gender, and about racial discrimination, the right can be, and is, established--and abridged--by federal and state statutes.

Threadkiller

I recognize that calling NK a pedophile is bullshit, and I ask that you don't do that again.

NK

Porch-- the preamble of the US Constitution states: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Common defence and general welfare are two primary purposes for adopting the constitution, and the Framers gave Congress the power to act on those in Article I. Virtually nothing in the Constitution is absolute, not even the 1st Amendment, yelling fire in the crowded theater for instance, or how about secession? the Civil War and 14th Amendment imply secession is not permitted, but how is that squared with the 10th Amendment reservation of sovereignty for the States 'or the people.'
Regulation of firearms by the Congress and the States has been upheld numerous times, isn't regulation of any kind an abridgement? then why do the courts uphold the regulations as constitutional? Claiming the 2nd Amendment is absolute is afactual and ahistorical.

Stephanie

For the liberty absolutists: how can voter ID laws be justified. They impose conditions on -- and therefore by definition abridge-- the inalienable right to vote for the government that will act with the consent of the People.

Groan... there are no "liberty absolutionists." There are those that understand what the founding fathers put to paper and those that don't.

Voter ID is to ensure one person one vote, no more, no less. And the felon exemption is a rule to punish those who have not kept their contract with the universe which saw fit to populate the earth with them. (the usual next but, but, but... by liberals in this argument, btw).

I've had this conversation with a liberal, and they argued just as you have done - that ALL rights are subject to limits. Those aren't rights, those are laws or privileges. And subject to change, whim and fashion. Inalienable laws are not subject to change. They just are as surely as the rules of physics are part of the universe. They are as inherent to us as breathing and we should guard them with care.

Captain Hate

Yes TK, even though NK can be *unusually* argumentative at times (like someone else I know...) calling him a pedophile is pretty low. And I generally like NLN's comments.

narciso

No, that's excessive, however when the Freeh report shows the malpractice committed by the administration, from the bottom ranks all the way to the top, you say don't jump the gun, however, when practically every single trace of evidence, exonerates Zimmerman from criminal wrongdoing, you still hold guilty until proven innocent,

Let's just be thankful they haven't given him a visa, yet;

http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=28269

lyle

I recognize that calling NK a pedophile is bullshit, and I ask that you don't do that again.

At the risk of injudiciously wading into a JOM internecine squabble, NO LIMIT called NK a "pedophilia apologist." Surely one can agree there's a distinction.


Threadkiller

Could have been a punctuation error, CH. I don't know. Just seems to be crossing a threshold.

jpt

"calling him a pedophile"

Well really pedophile apologist which I interpreted as referring to someone sticking up for Sandusky and/or Pedo Joe.

MarkO

Has anyone noticed that the gun debate has not changed in the last 30 years?

I remain fond the the phrase, "Congress shall make no law."

Ignatz

I think he called him a 'pedophile apologist' which is a far cry from calling him a pedophile.

Chubby

((They chose inalienable for a reason.))

the word they chose was "unalienable"


Captain Hate

Speaking of Penn State, posts like this from the Cult make me wish the NCAA had given them the four year death penalty which they'd considered: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=157&f=1395&t=9177511

Ignatz

--Why does the liberty interest in possessing 100 round mags outweigh the right to a collective defense against mass murder?--

Were there such a thing as a reliable 100 round magazine it seems to me it would make an excellent defense against mass murder not to mention against an oppressive government.

AliceH

Bottom line, NK - there is no substantive argument FOR the position that there should be a 'line' on magazine capacities, and it's silly to keep digging for more reasons not to.

Charlie Martin

hey impose conditions on -- and therefore by definition abridge-- the inalienable right to vote for the government that will act with the consent of the People.

Um. Well, to start with, voting isn't an inalienable right; your right to vote can be abridged. The Constitution didn't even define who may vote until the 14th Amendment, which limits the right to vote to either natural born or naturalized citizens. It follows therefore that establishing a person's citizenship is a necessary condition to voting.

In contrast, the right to keep an bear arms is stated in the Second Amendment, and is stated very clearly as "shall not be abridged." Period.

Nice try but if I can spot the problem in your legal reasoning, the real lawyers here are probably hurting themselves laughing.

Threadkiller

Lyle is correct. It looked like as list with a couple of commas missing.

I sure don't want to say "carry on" but my hands are tied.

narciso

the problem lies in the culture, not the law,
the disparagement of bourgeois, middle class habits, over the last 40 years has taken it's toll.

Sara

.

Threadkiller

Charlie, my savior! I have been looking for "natural born" in the 14th for four years now. Where was it hiding?

:-)

Captain Hate

It would be nice if somebody convicted of vote fraud would suffer a penalty that's more than a slap on the wrist.

Charlie Martin

Grumph. Notice I didn't put in quotation marks. You've corrupted my thinking.

Sara

Bob Beckel just said that Romney not stopping in Afghanistan is bad because afterall he has to fly over it anyway to get to Poland. I know I've been out of school a long long time and maps have changed, but I didn't know they'd changed this much.

BB Key

TK, thanks for the Battle of Athens link, it is nice to learn something new everyday... I guess that's why I come here

narciso

Facepalm with a tentacled one, Captain, they had 14 years to remedy the situation,

Ignatz

LOL, TK.

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