Great Moments In Fact-Checking

Inspird by the Biden-Ryan donnybrook the NY Times provides this fact-check on the situation in Libya:

Mr. Romney has criticized the Obama administration for initially playing down Al Qaeda’s possible connection to the attacks last month in Benghazi, but some of his own statements on the assault have been misleading.

In a major foreign policy address on Monday, Mr. Romney said the attack was “likely the work of forces affiliated with those that attacked our homeland on Sept. 11, 2001.”

This suggests that Al Qaeda’s leadership in Pakistan, which planned and carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, was somehow responsible for the attack in Libya. That’s misleading. American intelligence analysts now believe that some of the militants involved in the attack were linked to groups affiliated with, or sympathetic to Al Qaeda’s franchise in North Africa, not the main Al Qaeda hierarchy.

Ah, well - our ambassador was killed by terrorists affiliated with terrorists affiliated with Al Qaeda, not by terrorists affiiated with A Qaeda. I feel safer already, and darn that Romney for trying to scare me.

Over at Foreign Affairs we are cautioned against slicing Al Qaeda too finely:

Still, most accounts of the progress of the war against al Qaeda contend that the organization is on the decline, pointing to its degraded capacity to carry out terrorist operations and depleted senior leadership as evidence that the group is at its weakest since 9/11. But such accounts treat the central al Qaeda organization separately from its subsidiaries and overlook its success in expanding its power and influence through them. These groups should not be ignored. All have attacked Western interests in their regions of operation. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) has also long targeted the United States, but its efforts have moved beyond the execution stage only in the last two years, most recently with the foiled plot to bomb cargo planes in October 2010. And although al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) has not yet attacked outside its region, al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) was reportedly involved in the June 2007 London and Glasgow bomb plots.

It is time for an updated conception of al Qaeda's organization that takes into account its relationships with its subsidiaries. A broader conceptual framework will allow for a greater understanding of how and to what degree it exercises command and control over its expanded structure, the goals driving its expansion strategy, and its tactics.

Well - while the Times is decrying vagueness, perhaps they can take on this claim by Obama from May 2012, while speaking about our effort in Afghanistan:

But over the last three years, the tide has turned. We broke the Taliban’s momentum. We’ve built strong Afghan security forces. We devastated al Qaeda’s leadership, taking out over 20 of their top 30 leaders. And one year ago, from a base here in Afghanistan, our troops launched the operation that killed Osama bin Laden. The goal that I set -- to defeat al Qaeda and deny it a chance to rebuild -- is now within our reach.

Hmm - does it count as "rebuilding" if Al Qaeda establishes affiliates in, just for example, Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, and North Africa? Or was Obama preparing to declare "victory" over Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan and pretend it was a complete victory? Baffling, and I await clarity from the Times.

 

Comments

[henry]

TM, adding franchises is not "rebuilding"... it is "growth". Not that the admin or the press knows what those words mean.

[Rob Crawford]

Would someone explain why anyone reads the New York Times?

Other than for comic relief, that is.

[Sue]

to Al Qaeda’s franchise in North Africa, not the main Al Qaeda hierarchy

Isn't this a difference without a distinction?

[Cecil Turner]

Ridiculous. You'd think they'd fact-check Biden's assertion "that was exactly what we were told by the intelligence community." As if the CIA told them there were rioters at the Consulate.

Naw, we'd rather spin in circles about which brand of Al Qaeda was in charge of the attack.

[Old Lurker]

Rob, my neighbor gets the NYT because he finds the blue bags best for picking up dog poop.

[narciso]

No, but they are like the Times on Watergate;

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/28/intercepts-show-attackers-on-u-s-consulate-in-benghazi-bragged-to-al-qaeda.html

[fdcol63]

It's like saying, "No, we're not fighting the Mafia. This is the Gambino family, not the Lucianos."

[Melinda Romanoff]

narc-

The AoS pick up is making your link the epilogue.

[NK]

TomM-- fantastic snark-- you humiliated both the NYT AND JEF in one post. Fabulous job. Welcome back, welcome back indeed.

[Melinda Romanoff]

NH- 50-46

[Melinda Romanoff]

Did I leave off too many letters?

Sorry.

50R-46O.

Cascade, Preference Cascade.

[Sue]

Missouri is a toss up state? If that is the case, why on earth was Akin considered a shoo-in?

[NK]

Please, please let the cascade have startith.

MelR-- whose NH poll?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Digging.

[Appalled]

I don't think we ever win a war with radical Islam, or Al Qaeda, since that particular faction does not recognize reality or defeat, and does not care about consequences. The best we do is defend our homeland, help Isreal protect itself, and do what we can to ensure we do not have to be all that involved with the place where radical Islam flourishes. Mostly, that involves developing our energy resources, so that we do not have to depend on Saudi Arabia, and similar epicenters of crazy.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to live in a place where Radical Islam holds sway. We can't save them. The people of those lands, hopefully, will find a way to save themselves.

[Chubby]

((Would someone explain why anyone reads the New York Times?))

warcraft 101? hold your friends close but your enemies closer?

[Melinda Romanoff]

ARG, and it adds FL to the mix.

[NK]

One thing worth reading in the NYT-- John Tierney science column. He's a good man and a fabulous writer. Pinch must admire his writing, he just doesn't let Tierney write about politics.

[Rob Crawford]

Quote of the day, from another site:

I was clicking around on the TV this evening and I thought I saw Paul Ryan being interviewed by some lady I’m not familiar with. There was this white monkey in a suit jumping around in the background, making a variety of contorted faces. Eh, maybe I just imagined it.

[Ranger]

It's official, the WH is throwing State under the bus as well now:

White House: Obama and Biden were never aware of requests for more Benghazi security

Vice President Joseph Biden speaks only for himself and President Barack Obama, and neither man was aware that U.S. officials in Libya had asked the State Department for more security before the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. mission in Benghazi, a top White House official told The Cable.

Two brewing wars in the DC out of one night of Biden's yapping.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Riehl reports Raddatz was at SloJo's back in March, at the residence.

[Rick Ballard]

NK,

ARG Overweight GOP but seriously underweight in the age split - 52 is the current median age of the VEP and they have the <50 at 59% of the sample with >50 at 41%.

The poll is interesting wrt the gender split, with BOzo only receiving a 49% share. Given the racial makeup of New Hampshire, that's unsurprising, but if you add in the age factor it's indicative of a loss of support among Julia's.

[Rob Crawford]

warcraft 101? hold your friends close but your enemies closer?

What ever happened to "hold your friends close but stab your enemies and bury their bodies where they'll never be found"?

Seems like a much safer solution.

[narciso]

That's really more a midpoint thing, Captain, although it was more specific
to the operational aspects of the assault.

Appalled. the Salafi are waging a war on us,
this administration encourages them with every step, on the foreign policy front,

[Danube of Thought]

why on earth was Akin considered a shoo-in?

Because of revulsion against McCaskill.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rick-

Do you have a decent demographics link for NH?

Just curious.

[Chubby]

((It's official, the WH is throwing State under the bus as well now:))

looks like Biden really did do well last night -- for Romney!

[NK]

RickB-- isn't that ARG poll 39% Dem, 33%R, 28% Indy?

[Appalled]

narciso:

I am all for sending a drone to go drop bommbs on the people who plot against us. Also, just to get on-topic for a moment, I find the WH approach of denying there is a war with Radical Islam (I prefer that term, as it encomppasses the Iranians, Hezbollah, and the like) obnoxious. Denying the obvious is very stupid, and blaming a video for an obvious terrorist attack was contemptable.

As for blaming State for the security decision at Benghazi -- I think THAT is plausible. (Decisions like embassy security really don't belong at the WH). But I think the subsequent lying about Benghazi was probably Obama's, because he wanted to give a pretty speech at the UN that set him up as the resonable middle between US crazies and Middle Eastern crazies.

[DebinNC]

BOzo went to the State Dept. the morning after Benghazi attack. Hmm... Maybe BOzo was so focused on his NV/CO funders that evening/next day that he didn't pay attention to a word he was told.

[SWarren]

Frank Beckman, morning host on WJR Detroit opened his show this morning, playing a clip of JFK explaining the need for tax cuts and that the taxes on high income earners is too much and need to be cut.

Frank says so when Biden said to Ryan “Oh, so now you’re John Kennedy “ the response is “YES, I AM”

I wish the Romney campaign would get that Kennedy clip and make it a very effective ad.

[NK]

Ranger-- JEF/Slo are setting up Cankles for slack security for Stevens-- i.e. a Cankles killed Stevens meme. No doubt about that.
But to me-- the real fight is over, JEF's video riot claim that "statements were made on the best available intel at the time" which is a lie. To me, the knife fight will be over whether Intel proves Bam is lying about that.

[DebinNC]

it's indicative of a loss of support among Julia's.

That aligns with Dem pollster Stan Greenberg suggesting BOzo needs to target unmarried women.

[narciso]

Giving them at least two 'failed'states. to operate from, is a serious error,

[Captain Hate]

Strange that the Duranty Times didn't ask the JEF for specific franchises when he said AQ is on the run.

[MarkO]

Obviously, Obama is perfect for targeting stupid unmarried women in a bar.

[Rick Ballard]

Mel,

Census QuickFacts gives basic demographics for any state.

NK,

The ARG link shows D29, R35, I36.

[Ranger]

As for blaming State for the security decision at Benghazi -- I think THAT is plausible. (Decisions like embassy security really don't belong at the WH).

A valid point as far as it goes, but two things to consider:

1) The president sets the priorities for his entire administration. The fact that State thought spending money on "greening" the embassy in Vienna was a higher priority for spending money than giving the country team in Libya the security resources they were asking for is a direct reflection on the braod priorities that the president has set.

2) The way they have worded this response points the finger of blame directly at Hillary. It's her Department. Read into that what you will. (Personally, I don't think the Clintons will take that very well, especially after all the hard work Bill did for Barry at the Convetion.)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Ah, thanks.

Was hoping for some special sauce, but that'll do. Urban make up in NH is a bit "different" than one might expect.

[NK]

ARG-- there were several polls in the ARG link (national NH) were there different percentages?

[Captain Hate]

Cankles killed Stevens meme. No doubt about that.

Since the red nosed predator has never been any good at campaigning for anybody but himself and his fatassed drunk wife (50% of the time for the latter) I'm kind of concerned that he might stop stumping for the JEF. I was counting on his always showing up late and general incoherency to change a few minds.

[Ranger]

NK,

I think there are two valid lines of attack on ObamaCo over this. One is the failure to see something like this coming and prepare properly. The other is the lies needed afterwards to cover up the first failure. No reason that both can't be pressed at the same time.

[Rob Crawford]

Giving them at least two 'failed'states. to operate from, is a serious error,

California and...? Illinois? Michigan?

[Frau Narrenschiff]

Will Hillry! go quietly with this being laid at her cankles feet?

We were promised Mr. Gravitas and what we got was Nicholson's Joker.

Why were there no questions last night about Obamacare?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Frau-

Death Panels were discussed. Also a laughing moment.

[Danube of Thought]

NH went 54.1 - 44.5 for Obama in 2008.

[NK]

Ranger-- RR must press both now, absolutely-- I completely agree. My point is I don't think that the Intel people will drop the full dime on JEf regarding the post-Benghazi lies until after the election. JEF blaming HILLARY! for failing to protect Benghazi-- that's playing out right now. It's up to RR to make the point that the whole eff-up is JEF's fault for his infantile and unserious approach to AQ and anti-terrorism generally.

[NK]

"...Giving them at least two 'failed'states. to operate from, is a serious error,...."
NYS? Ct?

[Sue]

There is a reason they don't unleash Sheriff Joe on an unsuspecting public very often. Last night was a great example why they only send him where no one is covering it.

[Janet]

I feel sorry for anyone who has to live in a place where Radical Islam holds sway. We can't save them. The people of those lands, hopefully, will find a way to save themselves.

We absolutely cannot if no new ideas are allowed. One of the saddest things for me was hearing about the burned Bibles. Now it is NOT our military's job to evangelize....but they are the tip of the spear for letting light into those dark, backward countries. Freedom of thought should have followed them. We should have been all about flooding the ME with new ideas, beliefs, & thoughts. Teaching people to read & flooding the place with secular books, Bibles, that crap DVD, The Golden Book of Manners, Origin of Specie,....everything!
The left may not have faith in their own crap ideas...but I know Jesus Christ can change individuals. Open the door to missionaries bringing the Gospel & you will get a changed country.

[NK]

"Open the door to missionaries bringing the Gospel & you will get .." dead martyrs, I'm afraid.

[SWarren]

Heh, Rush Limbaugh is onto the JFK clip I referenced above. Says he will get to it later.

[Ranger]

Newt makes a key point:

Gingrich: Biden’s Benghazi response will “haunt” Obama

The "who do you trust?" question got a lot easier to answer last night.

[GMAX]

Riffing off the the Muslim chant "There is but one douchebag, Zero and Sneering Biden is his messenger".

Just like it was slow dawning on the pundits, both Conservatives and Liberals, that Romney put a dent in Zero in the debate, it again appears that folks dont realize that folks saw a perfectly reasonable articulate and earnest Ryan, and a snarling buffoon geriatic teenager and he may have put the last straw on the back of the Zero campaign last evening.

Fat dumb and snarling is no way to go through life, Joey.

[Appalled]

Ranger:

I get your point about priorities -- and, regardless of who made the decision about Benghazi security, Obama is responsible for it as President. Making that point, of course, is Romney's job. My guess is that he will at the foreign policy debate.

The irony, of course, is while all this was going on, the media was busily ending Romney's campaign over his questioning of State Department wisdom, and ignoring everything else. What a long way we have come in a month...

[Melinda Romanoff]

"Haunt" isn't quite the same as "Forehead Tattoo", but that may just be me.

[Jane - Mock the media]

Re: Obama not knowing about the need for security in Benghazi -

Has anyone checked his IPAD for all those security briefings he was so religious about reading, while ignoring the meetings for 15 days prior to 911?

[C.R.]

The "Obama, Biden were never made aware of the request for more security" defense leads directly back to Obama skipping all his security briefings. Not smart.

[C.R.]

Jane - great minds... :-)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Michigan, Pennsylvania, and New Hampshire reclassified as "toss up" states-Althouse

[GMAX]

Perhaps the fact checkers missed maybe the largest and most pernicious lie of the many that Biden told last night. The Catholic Bishops did not:

Last night, the following statement was made during the Vice Presidential debate regarding the decision of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to force virtually all employers to include sterilization and contraception, including drugs that may cause abortion, in the health insurance coverage they provide their employees:

“With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.”

This is not a fact. The HHS mandate contains a narrow, four-part exemption for certain “religious employers.” That exemption was made final in February and does not extend to “Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital,” or any other religious charity that offers its services to all, regardless of the faith of those served.

HHS has proposed an additional “accommodation” for religious organizations like these, which HHS itself describes as “non-exempt.” That proposal does not even potentially relieve these organizations from the obligation “to pay for contraception” and “to be a vehicle to get contraception.” They will have to serve as a vehicle, because they will still be forced to provide their employees with health coverage, and that coverage will still have to include sterilization, contraception, and abortifacients. They will have to pay for these things, because the premiums that the organizations (and their employees) are required to pay will still be applied, along with other funds, to cover the cost of these drugs and surgeries.

USCCB continues to urge HHS, in the strongest possible terms, actually to eliminate the various infringements on religious freedom imposed by the mandate.

Bold is mine, rest is rather divine inspired. I am frankly a little shocked Biden did not turn into a pillar of salt right before our eyes...

[Jane - Mock the media]

Yup CR!

[lyle]

You couldn't fill a thimble with the class of this buffoon VP. This clueless (or mendacious or both) jackhole is cheered on by an entire party of petulant children. Keep on laughing, Joe. The country is swirling the drain and that's just effing hilarious, huh?

[NK]

USCCB Statement-- Go Cardinal Dolan! SloJoe is a heretic and a liar.

[Porchlight]

NH went 54.1 - 44.5 for Obama in 2008.

CO went for Obama 54-45
WI went for Obama 56-43

Both look to be within Romney's grasp, esp. CO. I don't see why NH shouldn't be the same.

[Porchlight]

This is not a fact. The HHS mandate contains a narrow, four-part exemption for certain “religious employers.” That exemption was made final in February and does not extend to “Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital,” or any other religious charity that offers its services to all, regardless of the faith of those served.

Beyond that, my understanding is that the exemption was an offer made by HHS but is not codified anywhere in the legislation. As the mandate currently stands, the exemption does not exist.

[Melinda Romanoff]

New iBama ad running here.

Very, very odd.

[Some Guy]

This is where the wheels come off the Permanent Campaign bus.

Instead of taking the painful, but short-term hit of saying, ‘in the fog of events we made a mistake, and stated something that wasn’t true’, which would have left a mark, but would also have left it in September.

Now, they’ve attempted to throw the entire intelligence community and the Clinton machine under the bus. Awesometudinous skill that takes.

Now you have dozens if not hundreds of insiders no longer wondering how to jockey for position in a second term, but now knowing that this is the end of the line, and there is no ‘after November’. They’ve all jump started their thinking to 4 and 8 years from now, and they have reputations to protect and defend.

We may get to witness the first October Surprise an administration has ever unleashed on itself.

[Ranger]

Appalled,

I completely agree.

I do think that Obama's efforts to point fingers makes him look small.

Compare it to how Reagan handled the USMC barraks bombing in Lebanon. The morning the investigative report came out that essentially put all the blame on the O6 on the ground for poor judgement, Reagan came out and made a statement that regardless of what the report said, he was responsible as president because he ordered the deployment.

Obama's "the buck stops somewhere else" attitude is a disgrace to the office.

But it is Romney's job to ask the question: If they are willing to lie about something as important as terrorism, what won't they lie about?

[jimmyk]

JFK explaining the need for tax cuts and that the taxes on high income earners is too much and need to be cut.

The Dem response, if they were smart, which they aren't, is that the highest marginal rate was 91% at the time, and JFK cut it to 65%. Of course, I'm sure there were lots of exemptions built in so that hardly anyone paid that rate, and that only reinforces the RR principle of low rates, reduced deductions, but it's not a simple point.

[narciso]

Well I was referring to Egypt andYemen Libya, and Tunisia, in roughly that order.

[JM Hanes]

"It is time for an updated conception of al Qaeda's organization that takes into account its relationships with its subsidiaries."

Good grief! Try well past time by 10 years. The great Al Qaeda diaspora commenced when we hit the ground in Afghanistan, and we've basically been fighting the Taliban there ever since. How many acronyms does it take to convey that message -- and we've hardly even begun to talk about al Qaeda in Latin America.

That's why Obama's vow to refocus our efforts on bin Laden and "disrupting" al Qaeda in Afghanistan made virtually no sense in the first place. ISTM that Afghanistan's importance has always been largely geographic. It occupies a strategic point on the nuclear silk road and had Obama attempted to consolidate our nascent alliance with Iraq, while committing to territorial/social gains for western influence in Afghanistan, we might be close to bookending Iran by now, instead of just watching them build nuclear weapons from a remote location.

[NK]

JMH@1:11 all true-- I summarize that by saying JEF's anti-terrorism actions are infantile and unserious.

[narciso]

Now Kirkpatrick's earlier story about an agency bugout is wrong, or at least incomplete, because to be able to gather and source that intelligence would have taken some time.

[sbwaters]

Obama didn't know JFK. Obama was not a friend of JFK. Obama is no JFK.

[GMAX]

Are you ready for a 20 something slacker preference cascade? Well here is an opinion leader that has come out for a different kind of change! here:

“I think unemployment is very important for now, so as of now I think (my vote) is Mitt Romney,” Lohan told reporters, including FOX411′s Pop Tarts, at the Mr. Pink Ginseng Drink Launch Party Los Angeles on Thursday night.

OMG OMG OMG

[pagar]

Friend of the family.

http://riehlworldview.com/2012/10/raddatz-visited-biden-at-his-residence-in-march.html

[sbwaters]

JMH: the nuclear silk road

Beautiful phrasing.

[GMAX]

The Dem response, if they were smart, which they aren't,

Well they would get very confused cuz its math. And they are already having to remember 99% and 47% and 7.8% so you would asking a hell of a lot of a doofus like Biden and a slacker like Zero.

[jimmyk]

OMG OMG OMG

Lohan saying something at a "Drink Launch Party" is not something I want to contemplate too deeply (no matter how soft the drink).

[GMAX]

NH went 54.1 - 44.5 for Obama in 2008.

CO went for Obama 54-45
WI went for Obama 56-43

If you want a key to the treasure chest, look up the minority populations in all three places. Colorado probably has the most and its not that large. NH probably has a black guy somewhere, lost on a freeway or something.

[narciso]

Consider that the silk road begins in Kahuta, which ran all the way to Pyonggang,
and as far west as Tripoli, Pyongang chipped in on the Syrian plant at Deir er Zur, which is now a major focus of the rebels. Btw, has the Solon from Scranton heard of a dirty bomb, doesn't have to be a nuke.

[Captain Hate]

Lohan saying something at a "Drink Launch Party" is not something I want to contemplate too deeply (no matter how soft the drink).

sylvia's tiny head may have just exploded

[Chubby]

((We may get to witness the first October Surprise an administration has ever unleashed on itself.))

lol!!!!

[Danube of Thought]

I don't see why NH shouldn't be the same.

I don't either. I just mentioned those numbers for comparison with the partisan split in the ARG poll. That split may very well reflect NH party ID today, for all I know.

Romney 49, Obama 47 in the Gallup LV horserace today.

[lyle]

From the Daily Mail, UK, where an American has to go to get all the embargoed news that isn't fit to print. Michael Hayden, ex-CIA chief:

‘During the Vice Presidential debate, we were disappointed to see Vice President Biden blame the intelligence community for the inconsistent and shifting response of the Obama Administration to the terrorist attacks in Benghazi,’ they said in the statement.

‘Given what has emerged publicly about the intelligence available before, during, and after the September 11 attack, it is clear that any failure was not on the part of the intelligence community, but on the part of White House decision-makers who should have listened to, and acted on, available intelligence. Blaming those who put their lives on the line is not the kind of leadership this country needs.

[lyle]

Sorry. Link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216830/Ex-CIA-chief-slams-Biden-throwing-U-S-spies-bus-debate-blaming-lives-line-Benghazi-debacle.html

[Danube of Thought]

We may get to witness the first October Surprise an administration has ever unleashed on itself.

In soccer it's called an "own goal."

[Captain Hate]

Great point by Teh Tam: The donks have no clip, even taken out of context, of Ryan making as ass out of himself.

[Rob Crawford]

Assume neither Obama nor Biden knew the Libyan delegation had been asking for more security before 9/11/12 -- is that because that information was not forwarded to them, or because they hadn't asked?

Either way -- what's the value of the "briefing" the Light Bringer has dropped off at the residence each day?

Admittedly, presidents shouldn't have to be concerned with the security details at each consulate, but given that Obama removed Gaddafi and left Libya in the state it's in, don't you think he'd be a bit more sensitive to what's happening there?

Or do you think he may consider NOTHING his responsibility?

[narciso]

Probably, btw, there's a reason Longoria didn't speak much in 'For Greater Glory'
something about 'removing all doubt'

[Chubby]

I wonder how Bill will feel if they throw Hillary under the bus? Will he still run around helping Obama?

[pagar]

George Bush makes us proud again.

http://weaselzippers.us/2012/10/12/pic-of-the-day-69/

[Sue]

pagar,

That is adorable. He looks embarrassed to be dancing with such a pretty woman.

[JM Hanes]

NK:

Since we've migrated to a new thread, I'm going to respond to your earlier comments on push back from the Intel community here. Others might want to flex their scrolling fingers.

"The ultimate issue isn't the attack, it's clear that's what happened, the issue is when did Intel explicitly tell JEF this was a terror attack-- and nothing else-- and how long after that did JEF continue to lie-- at the UN,in the Paki advert, at Dover in front of flag draped coffins-- that's the bombshell the intels hold over JEF IMO-- that hasn't come out yet."

I think you're conflating the political story with the underlying intelligence story, and that your projected showdown scenario, whenever it might ostensibly occur, doesn't begin to capture the key dynamics of the latter. That this Administration lied for political reasons seems clear enough, the nature of the attack itself does not.

There's no love lost between Obama and the Intel community -- and let's not forget the prosecutorial sword of Damocles which Holder left swinging over their heads until just this year (convenient electoral timing, no?). I suspect they're none too found of Clapper, either. That said, however, I seriously doubt we/re going to be hearing much from them, no matter how far under the bus Obama throws them, because I'm convinced there's far more going on here than anybody is talking about. You have stipulated that there's a lot more to learn, but you've been focusing almost exclusively on the what-did-Obama-know-when issue.

While we know the State Dept. security people were begging for more feet on the ground, there were also three CIA operatives working out of the Consulate in Benghazi who obviously didn't see the assault coming, themselves. We've heard almost nothing more about the purportedly monumental loss of classified intel in the attack, since the initial, very early reports. It's entirely possible that the CIA will take the White House hits lying down, because they're dealing with serious problems of their own, whether it's ass covering or confronting failures, or developing responsive maneuvers that they can't afford reveal. It's also quite possible, IMO, that they have not, in fact, been sharing everything they know with the President & State. Would you? I also suspect that the technical consolidation of intel agencies under a single DNI has not resulted in an entirely free flow of intel between departments whose ends and means differ widely. In any case, one of the reasons we won't be seeing any wag the dog retaliation in Libya from Obama is because I doubt anybody really knows where to start, or will for the foreseeable future.

We also either don't know, or haven't been told, anything about what went on between the time the Ambassador was separated from his ad hoc body guards and when his body showed up at the hospital. Was he simply lost in the smoke? Was he looking to recover or destroy valuable intel. Where do the reports that he was (repeatedly?) raped come from? Was he known to be gay, as has been recently suggested, and thus at exceptional risk? Did the F.B.I. collect samples of the blood smeared on the Consulate column? Were any autopsies undertaken? In retrospect, it seems rather remarkable that in an attack of the ferocity which has been described, only three people died, while everyone else made it to the airport -- in numbers which actually surprised the Libyans. Apparently, Americans (perhaps other agents) were coming out of the woodwork, not just the Consulate.

No matter how incensed the intel community may get at being made the scapegoat by an utterly self-serving President, the underlying story here is surely incredibly complex. Defensive leaking with so much as yet unknown has got to be a very dicey business, and I believe the the internal investigations, while providing convenient political cover, are also very real.

It's important for Congress to run a parallel investigation from outside the Executive Branch, but they are going to have to do a lot of their own work behind closed doors too. I note that Petraeus continues to keep a very low profile. While I'm not sure what the status of his relationship with Obama is at this point in time, I expect he runs at least a tight ship leakwise, and as a former general I also doubt that he's disposed to stepping very far outside the chain of command, even if he is called to testify before Congress.

The White House buck passing "cover-up" is one thing, but I really don't think there's any way we will really understand the true dimensions or the nexus of the multiple failures, or the larger picture of what lead up to and beyond the attack on Benghazi any time soon. That's the "ultimate issue."

[pagar]

Rush tells you why the Obama regime is always down on the US military.

http://dailyrushbo.com/rush-do-you-want-to-know-the-real-reason-why-there-were-no-live-bullets-in-the-weaponry-held-by-our-marines-in-cairo-or-benghazi/

[Jane - Mock the media]

Pagar,

That picture made my day. Thanks!

[Captain Hate]

As somebody who has continually slattered Chris Wallace, I have to commend him for his comments on Biden last night.

[JM Hanes]

The was intended to read that Petraeus runs at least a relatively tight ship.

[Sue]

Good grief. Do NOT scroll on by a JM Hanes post. You do that to one of mine that isn't telling you NOT to scroll on by a JM Hanes post. ::grin::