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November 30, 2012

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Gus

Capn, maybe my description wasn't the best, but I reject the ad hoc PC thought, that we, I, cannot talk about some or any group, that is disadvantaged, unless I am in FULL PANDER mode.
You and Narciso are both very very bright, and I appreciate the discourse.

narciso

'winning the future' is this about'


http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/high_stakes/#commentsmore

Ralph L

Narciso, Ben Stein laughed at your show, but not in a good way. LUN

narciso

Stein, who vouched for and contributed to 'Stu Smalley' yes I noted that off note, as with their
slightly off kilter take on fracking, I figure like most gangs, they have a drug operation, and
the fellow in question, was 'launderin'the cash.


http://www.bizzyblog.com/2012/11/30/a-time-to-remember-those-who-said-the-muslim-brotherhood-in-egypt-wasnt-a-threat-to-democracy/

Gus

Narciso. Anyone who was informed, and was not drinking the KOOL-AID would have understod that EGYPT was going to be over-run by the same VIRUS of ISLAMISM that other N.African and Middle Eastern nations were. It was a fucking no brainer.

RichatUF

too bad no one in dc thought about that

RichatUF

and Mike Murphy knows what ails the GOP. conservatism, especially the social ones...his solution more cowbell*

run liberals like Meg Whitman, John McCain, and Mitt Romney and electoral victory is ours...

Danube of Thought

You did not acknowledge that you learned something from me, but, thankfully, you shut up for two days.

In fact, I acknowledged that I had previously been unaware that the Founders had ever heard of the Swiss Vattel. Learning it was roughly equivalent to learning that an eyewitness had claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald had a Mauser instead of a Mannlicher-Carcano.

And yet Donofrio--and you--seized upon the fact that copies of Vattel's treatise had been mailed to them as showing that they had "almost certainly" adopted his alleged assertion that "natural born" (a term he never used) required two parents. Never mind that his treatise was on the law of "nations," and not the law of England--in which the Founders were steeped, and toward which they were quite reverential. And never mind that the law of England for centuries had held that one was a natural born citizen of the nation on whose soil he was born.

You have steadfastly avoided acknowledging this fact. Instead, your immediate instinct is to mock and ridicule English common lae, not because you know anything at all about it, but because you dimly perceive that it destroys your--and Donofrio's--entire thesis.

You repeatedly reject any effort to point out the errors in your analysis. Confronted with the holding in Ankeny v. Daniels, you contend that it is dicta. This is simply false. You contend instead that the dicta in the Minor case is a controlling precedent, when every first year law student knows that that is false.

Confronted with the fact that the very first Congress in 1790 understood and acted upon the fact that it could define legislatively who would and would not be a natural born citizen, you contend immediately that if Congress repeals an earlier enactment on a subject it has forever forfeited the right to legislate on that subject. This is equivalent to saying that if Congress establishes the top marginal tax rate at 70%, and thereafter repeals that rate, it is forever barred from legislating tax rates. This is not a reasoned argument; it is a reflexive response intended to defend what can't be defended.

When Iggy comments here about the logging industry, I learn something. Ditto Mel R about securities and the markets in which they are traded, of rse on education, or Jimmyk on economics. I defer to their expertise, and benefit from it.

I have spent about forty years studying constitutional law and constitutional history, and practicing in that trade. I don't pretend to be an expert. And I understand that many of my colleagues disagree with me on many a point. I don't know of any lawyer who disagrees with me on the NBC question except Leo Donofrio, Orly Taitz and Philip Berg. And of course TK, who is not a lawyer and who assiduously avoids learning anything from any of them who are not nuts.

I understand and respect the views of those who dread the very prospect of another TK/DOT birther thread. I certainly won't initiate one, and won"t "goad" him. But each and every time he raises this crazy NBC stuff I will be right here to ridicule him.

Jim Ryan

Orly TaitzOrly Taitz

Sorry, but I just can't get past the name. It sounds like a snack food.

RichatUF

another identity teenager, ole' Peggy, is wonderin' why Mr. Wonderful isn't so wonderful after all...

The election is over, a new era begins—and it looks just like the old one. A crisis is declared. Confusion, frustration, and a more embittered process follow. This is . . . the Obama Way. Nothing has changed, even after a yearlong campaign that must, at times, have looked to him like a near-death experience. He still doesn't want to forestall jittery, gloom-laden headlines and make an early deal with the other guy. He wants to beat the other guy.

Come on Peggy, you voted for the guy, probably twice.

Jim Ryan

Every time she thinks of Obama, Peggy gets so wet she slides off her seat. She votes her lady parts. If she wrote some of Reagan's good speeches, then hurray for her, but there are more idiot savants in this world than you can shake a stick at.

RichatUF

lol. Could do without the visual though.

Thanks for the Sonic Youth recommendation. Something new (sort of remember their music) for the collection.

Jim Ryan

You're welcome, Rich. As I recall, their muse left them by the late 80's, So, I'd steer clear of that period and later. Their music was untempered, like Harry Partch's, meaning they removed the frets from the guitars and put them back at slightly different places.

anonamom

Clarice, thank you for the Zimmerman updates. It's how I came to JOM.
Have been wondering--why has TM stopped posting on it?
I missed JOM much of the summer due to boonie internet connection.

Captain Hate

Ben Stein's an idiot if he thinks PoI is as over the top on their plot lines as, say, those imbeciles writing for Law and Order are. I think narc and I both noted the sour note on fracking when it happened and the subsequent one that Stein mentioned didn't even merit a comment.

Extraneus

You know what we need in this country? A Pussy Riot style all-girl band with songs like "Obama Sucks!"

squaredance

Oh the debt will be "paid" alright. It will be paid by deflating the dollar to the level on the peso. The neo-commies do not care if it hurls the nation into third world status. They do not care if people cannot afford gasoline. The Nomenklatura will have gas a plenty.

Alternately, they do not care if America defaults and loses all credibility and power.

They want all of this. It is all part of the plan. Looks like it is going to happen, and sooner than you think most likely.

And when it does, they will blame it on the GOP, and the public will buy it!

That is how low we have fallen.

Traitors all, the Democrats.

Pops

I think the Republican leaderships main problem is they never seriously speak with conviction that the Federal government is not a solution. It is the problem.

Boehner should forcefully and publically state the obvious, the Federal government is not the same as the United States of America and this government is completely out of control, it spends way more then we can afford, it is bankrupting us as a nation, its creates really stupid and ridiculous situations like this fiscal cliff and its all due to poltiticians who put government before country.

While we try to take governing seriously, our opponents think this is fun to put the country through this, I personnaly do not.

The country of the United States will be far better off with a much smaller, less intrusive federal government as we already have 50 state government that duplicate much of what the Democrats want to do.

No one in this town has proposed a single cut or reduction of any program in 25 years. All we are talking about is slowing the future growth, no one is seriously cutting anything.

We are called extreme for wanting the Federal government to remain at 19-20 percent of GDP, what it hs been on average for 65 years while the President wants it to grow to 25% of GDP and more.

We were sent here by our constituents the same as the President, and we will vote based on our voters, not on exit polling or concocted public opinion.

To save this country from going bankrupt, this federal government must shrink significantly, to save our freedom, this governments regulations must be rolled back, to save our childrens future, this ever increasing debt must end.

We are at a stalemate, because we are trying to save the country, while the Democrats are trying to grow the government at the expense of our freedoms. We will no longer cut deals that simply prolong the agony of a country strangled by a federal government that has lost sight of its proper role.

Let me be clear, this fiscal cliff is inevitable, you can't spend trillions of dollars you don't have and can't afford and expect to long survive.

yes, America, Santa doesn't exist, its Moms and Dads that inevitably foot the bill for the reckless do gooders you promise everything on your list, regardless of the wreckage of the Country.

Its time to separate Country from Government and make sure that the Country survives.

henry

Amen Pops. What a wonderful idea to wake up to!

Janet

Wonderful, Pops!

Spending cuts first!--jimmyk

I think the Republican leaderships main problem is they never seriously speak with conviction that the Federal government is not a solution.

Understandable, since the last candidate to say exactly that was Reagan, and look what happened to--oh, wait, never mind.

pagar

Well Said, Pops!

pagar

"Stephen Berry, lead negotiator for the shipping lines and cargo terminals, said the clerical workers have been offered a deal that includes “absolute job security,” a raise that would take average annual pay to $195,000 from $165,000, 11 weeks’ paid vacation and a generous pension increase."

"The disruption is costing an estimated $1 billion a day at the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, on which some 600,000 truckers, dockworkers, trading companies and others depend for their livelihoods.

http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=45683

This is insane!

Clarice

A must read article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323751104578149292503121124.html

TK, I'll add that DoT has been giving you a first rate analysis of constitutional law and the NBC argument, tuition free, and yet you continue to cling to nutters' version of it. Silly.

narciso

Well I was struck examining the source material, from the Brennan Center, how they didn't even bother to address the RNC's argument, in these opinions

narciso

Yes, they are part of the Levick/CCR archipelago;

http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/mohammedou_salahi_v._barack_obama_amicus_brief/

rse

Morning everyone. Pops that was exceptional. I found it very telling to learn in was Robert McNamara who came up with PPBS that makes Growth virtually guaranteed as part of the mere budgeting process.

http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/producing-docile-instruments-and-captive-souls-putty-at-the-hands-of-the-predator-state/ is Part 2 where I lay out that we have Alice Bailey's vision or attaining Buddahood in this life without telling anyone that's what's going on or Dewey's religious humanism to change the world grounded in his atheism.

It sure did put Madalyn Murray O'Hare's and the ACLU's campaigns in a different light. Dewey was a founder of the ACLU so they would have had access to his intent.

Gives new meaning to the War on Christmas too.

All of this really does put the shenanigans at the UN in perspective. Plus this cultivated Mindset would be steamrolled by the vision of what Islam is now seeking that Andrew Bostom lays out in his fine new book Sharia versus Freedom.

What a fascinating time to be a history geek. Much more useful than the common perception.

Janet

The country of the United States will be far better off with a much smaller, less intrusive federal government as we already have 50 state government that duplicate much of what the Democrats want to do.

This is a great point. Like the caller on Rush not understanding money, IMO lots of Americans don't understand the difference between local, state, & fed powers & purpose. Why was Cherokee Warren hammering on hiring teachers, policemen, & firemen? That's not the feds job.
Fed food stamps, state food aid, local govt.food banks - not to mention all the private & church food programs....how many of these programs do we need?

Clarice

Of course they don't, Janet, that's why Clinton ran as if his office was the head of some national PTA..Remember his arguing for uniforms, etc. What b.s.?

narciso

Yes, Slahi, who was so far removed from the 9/11 hijackers, that they worshipped at the same mosque, and was the first to mention the courier,
but Jess Bravin, of the Journal took up his cause,

pagar

".how many of these programs do we need?"

How many of these programs are illegals encouraged by our governments to take advantage
of? How many citizens of other countries are American taxpayers required to provide support
for before we have no funds to support anyone?
How many serve people who cannot or will not produce a photo ID to proof that they are who they say they are and eligible to receive such aid?

narciso

Al ghuardian, was a little more perceptive, although they had their share or released squirrels;


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/12/death-osama-bin-laden-us

Danube of Thought on IPad

''We have now an American political party and a European one. Not all Americans who vote for the European party want to become Europeans. But it doesn't matter because that's what they're voting for. They're voting for dependency, for lack of ambition, and for insolvency.'

"Few have thought as hard, or as much, about how democracies can preserve individual liberty and national virtue as the eminent political scientist Harvey Mansfield. When it comes to assessing the state of the American experiment in self-government today, his diagnosis is grim, and he has never been one to mince words."

It's all in the WSJ.

Jim Eagle

When I read this I thought of daddy and narciso:)

They Cracked This 250-Year-Old Code, and Found a Secret Society Inside

An amazing story, if you like cryptology and code breaking and machine translation algorithms. IOW, not for everyone.

narciso

Mansfield and the late James Q. Wilson, are the exception among the clique of sophists, that rule the roost in Cambridge,

narciso

This is possibly as bad as Andrew Robert's review on the other end of the spectrum;

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/sexism-is-forever-as-bond-takes-a-backward-step-20121123-29ygg.html

narciso

They are experts at minitrue, asking the courts to approve, the opposite of what the law demands


http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/census.pdf

Threadkiller

From DoT

"Never mind that his treatise was on the law of "nations," and not the law of England--in which the Founders were steeped, and toward which they were quite reverential. And never mind that the law of England for centuries had held that one was a natural born citizen of the nation on whose soil he was born."

From the "holding" not the "dicta" in Ankeny:

Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution governs who is a citizen of the United States. It provides that “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States . . . .” U.S. CONST. amend XIV, § 1. Article II has a special requirement to assume the Presidency: that the person be a “natural born Citizen.” U.S. CONST. art. II, § 1, cl. 4. The United States Supreme Court has read these two provisions in tandem and held that “[t]hus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” Minor v.Happersett, 88 (21 Wall.) U.S. 162, 167 (1874). In Minor, written only six years after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified, the Court observed that:
The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

Id. at 167-168. Thus, the Court left open the issue of whether a person who is born within the United States of alien parents is considered a natural born citizen.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/11120903.ebb.pdf

I assume quoting Danube's authority is considered "nutter version" free.

What I gather from this portion of the holding in Indiana are two things:

1.) Minor's definition of "Natural Born" is considered, by the Indiana Court, to be part of the holding in Minor.

2.) Minor's "doubts" regarding birthright citizenship should not have existed if the Founders were steeped and quite reverential towards the ECL definition of "natural born".

I hope that the next bit of first rate analisys sticks to what I posted.

I sense a Jim Ryan upset tummy along with a Donofrio reference instead.

narciso

As I suspected, the Court didn't address the real issues in the subsequent decision;

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/Democracy/RNC-Pet-Rehrng.pdf

Sue

I have a question...if DoT agreed with everything TK has posted how would that advance anything? The courts are siding with DoT. That wont change if DoT suddenly says TK has been right all along.

Threadkiller

Clarice, I too would like to point out something. Head nutter, Donofrio, was responsible for removing Roger Calero from the ballot in New Jersey in 2008.

"Calero was born in Nicaragua in 1969. He and his family fled via Los Angeles, California in 1985. Calero has been a lawful permanent resident of the United States (holding a green card) since 1990. While in Los Angeles, Calero joined a socialist movement and helped mobilize support against Proposition 187 in the early 90s.[2]

Calero, a former meat packer, has been associate editor of Perspectiva Mundial (official Spanish language newspaper of the SWP) and a staff writer for The Militant (official English language newspaper of the SWP).[2]

He now lives in Newark, New Jersey.

Legal problems

Calero was convicted of felony sale of marijuana in 1988. In December 2002, immigration police arrested Calero upon his return to the United States at the George Bush Intercontinental Airport from reporting assignments at a conference held in Havana, Cuba, protesting the Free Trade Area of the Americas. He was threatened with deportation in 2002 as a result of his previous conviction in 1988.[3]

The SWP considered the conviction to have been a political attack and launched a huge campaign in defense of Calero, mobilizing the party’s members and supporters in the U.S. and all over the world. The U.S. government released Calero in 2003 and cancelled the deportation.[4] The same year, Calero went on an international tour, visiting not only the major cities in the US, but also Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, Sweden and Iceland to greet his supporters.

Electoral campaigns

In 2004, Róger Calero was the SWP candidate for President of the United States and received 3,689 votes,[5] with Arrin Hawkins running for Vice President. Because he is not a natural born citizen of the United States, Calero is ineligible to become U.S. president under the United States Constitution, and so James Harris, the Socialist Workers' Party presidential candidate from 2000, stood in on the ticket in nine states where Calero could not be listed, receiving 7,102 additional votes.[6]

In 2006, Róger Calero appeared on the ballot in New York as the Socialist Workers Party candidate for US Senate. He received 5,127 votes.[7]

Róger Calero again ran for President of the United States representing the SWP in the 2008 presidential election, together with Alyson Kennedy for vice-president.[1] Again, James Harris stood in for Calero in several states.[8] In the 2008 presidential election, Calero was on the ballot in five states, where he received 7,209 votes. Coupled with the 2,424 votes received in the five states where Harris was on the ballot."

Was he nuts to think that a "lawful permanent resident" should not be on the ballot for POTUS?

Were the Sec of States, that let Calero on the ballot, more nuts?

centralcal

JiB - loved your link above at 9:43. Fascinating.

narciso

No, I think the fact that Calero, was a convicted felon weighed more in the deal, there
are real arguments, TK, but citing Minor, which comes from the same blinkered legal reasoning that gave us Dred Scott and Plessy, isn't one of them.

Janet

This article is really interesting, Clarice linked on FB - The union assault — covert and overt — on direct democracy

“We need Union members hitting the streets signing Riordan’s petition with fake names/addresses and gathering retraction signatures from LA residents on our own petition. We need people power starting this Saturday.”

bold mine. So they purposefully sign petitions with bogus info so when they are checked for legitimacy a high percentage are bogus & the petition effort fails. Newspaper headlines read that the effort failed because the group signed up fake citizens!

Obama's rise had some sketchy business with disqualifying people that ran against him by disqualifying signatures.
...and here in Arlington there was a pretty popular petition effort that the Dems mobilized to oppose ....& then suddenly the petition effort was de-legitimized by, I believe, 2 batches having a high number of bogus signatures. It was pretty sketchy. The signatures FOR the petition were all okay for awhile ....then suddenly after the City Council comes out against the effort & a big, organized group is formed to oppose the effort...bogus signatures become a problem.

narciso

This Malone character from 2004, had already voted without challenge, hence even Souter, called the case moot, and the Court was relying
on that moot decision, as precedent, this is a 'fracking fustercluck' of the first order'

Threadkiller

"The courts are siding with DoT."

The Supreme Court has never sided with DoT, Sue. 300+ cases have been thrown, at all levels, out on standing and failure to state a claim issues. A georgia court misquoted the already misquoted stuff in Indiana. A single judge in California came up with a definition in a case for McCain. His definition differed from the one in Ankeny.(suddenly we like the work of a solitary judge in California)

In the most recent case, some clown named Sibley in DC has found that he has standing:

http://montgomeryblairsibley.com/library/DCCode11001.pdf

Instead of discussing the merits of his claim or where it may lead, we go ahead and rag on him and Donofrio(who is not mentioned). Some take the moral highground and proclaim that birther sites are beneath them. Though, somehow, birther conversation aren't.

I would like to see this get to SCOTUS.

Threadkiller

Narciso, keep in mind that it is DoT's "holding" that is citing Minor as a holding, not me this time.

Are you saying that Ankeny had flawed reasoning?

Cecil Turner

2.) Minor's "doubts" regarding birthright citizenship should not have existed if the Founders were steeped and quite reverential towards the ECL definition of "natural born".

Bzzzt. Logic fail. Minor noted the existence of doubts--not that the court had them--and that it didn't need to answer the question. Subsequent cases (esp. Ark) did in fact need to answer it . . . and resorted to ECL.

Moreover, the result of this repetitive birther-in-every-thread discussion is to make this site look like a collection of birther nuts. Except for a couple of personal assurances by folks whose judgment I trust, I would have assumed you were a Moby troll trying to make us look bad. Which I don't appreciate.

narciso

No, the issue was much more obvious, Calero was a convicted felon, they shouldn't be able to vote, the Appeals Court, took the decision it had previously declared moot, as a holding, It ignored more applicable precedents like Munsingwear, re applicability of settlements,

Threadkiller

Since you see logic failures so well Cecil, does the quote in Minor, using logical notation, claim the the "doubts" are with the definition of who can be citizens or who can be "natural born" citizens?

narciso

I imagine Scalia would carve up that decision, like a halibut, however Sotomayor would probably
not vote to take it up, fearing that it would get
the Ricci treatment,

Threadkiller

Cecil, I had asked you directly, several months ago, if this topic bothered you. You assured me it did not.

Since that has changed...

narciso

This decision, is a 'travesty of two mockeries of a sham' it is everything they accused Gore v. Bush of being, the RNC made some good arguments,
before a logically impaired panel, and they were
dismissed outright,

narciso

By that I mean, the withering contempt that they showed to Sotomayor's decision, in Ricci, before
she joined the court, her subsequent performance
has only confirmed the judgement,

Janet

Do any groups that oppose machine Dems ever get newspapers to write headlines that say "The Dems are Disenfranchising Voters!"?

No. The other frustrating thing with that Arlington effort is that a big brouha was made about outside people gathering signatures...but our little local rag ran an advertisement disguised as a news story about housing needed for Dem. volunteers coming to town for Obama's reelection effort!

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--they had "almost certainly" adopted his alleged assertion that "natural born" (a term he never used) required two parents--

Finally a statement I can agree with...unless this is expanding the argument to whether test tube babies are natural born. That's a whole new can of planaria.
Can a petri dish have dual allegiances?

narciso

So much for the impartiality of 'Maximum John' Sirica,

http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/US-government-releases-once-secret-Watergate-files-4081320.php

one is reminded that Reggie Walton, had to sign off on the jailing of Judith Miller, in order to extract information that they already knew, that
Armitage had leaked Libby's name,

AC

re TWA 800..

///Fuel vapor is a known danger in half filled and empty tanks. There was little to fix since the most likely culprit was determined to be a short circuit heating wiring in a vapor filled tank. As long as there are wires and fuel on planes there will be no way to eliminate the possibility of a short circuit igniting fuel vapor, no matter how uncommon it is.///


Maybe just a feel-good thing, but the fix was a nitrogen inerter system in the fuel tanks, which was supposed to make the vapors less harmful. The system was introduced only a few years ago. Of course, such a thing could also help minimize the chance of complete hull loss should another seat bomber manage to set off a small shoe bomb while sitting in a wing seat over a half empty center tank. I believe some of the cargo operators were exempt from this fix.

Not an expert by any means and am willing to believe 800 was just as they say--a sparked wire in the tank--but they've never really explained the traces of PETN and RDX found on the seats or the fact the CIA was involved in an explanation featuring a noseless aircraft rising several thousand feet before crashing (to explain the witnesses who saw a flaming vapor trail heading upwards before the crash).

Captain Hate

How is it that Armitage found himself at the center of the Plame controversy when he could've easily extricated everybody from it? When you look at his bio he seems to be a stand up guy with the Plame thing being an outlying point; at least that's how it appears to me. Was it loyalty to Powell or is the bio somewhat misleadingly stated? I'm sure this was discussed here during Libby's trial which was long before I started posting here.

Threadkiller

I just looked up "Moby troll".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moby

Around here a Moby troll is someone who believes the President should be the citizen child of citizen parents and holds no dual allegiances.

That looks like the work of a clever left winger!

The true conservatives, DoT and Clarice, hold the position that if an Iranian hangs her ass just inside our border, shits out a kid, takes the kid back to Iran until the kid is 21, and brings the Iranian-American back to his birthright country for 14 years, that kid meets the eligibility requirements as the Founders intended under ECL.


What a silly troll I am.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everybody!

narciso

Well Captain, I dubbed Armitage, 'Kingley' after that duplicitous power broker, on '24, with Caspian oil interests, Truman was right about 'getting a dog', back when this bunch of jackalopes was after Armitage, Libby defended him;

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,146522,00.html

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--but they've never really explained the traces of PETN and RDX found on the seats--

Not sure they found any on the seats but in any event IIRC they concluded the residue they found would have been gone after sitting in saltwater as long as the wreckage had and therefore it must have come off of the Navy ships salvaging the wreck. That coupled with no physical damage typical of high explosives seemed a pretty good explanation to me.

Rick Ballard

"if DoT agreed with everything TK has posted how would that advance anything?"

It wouldn't, not even by a micron. The issue is not justicable and, given that the Kendonesian commie will never be on a ballot again, the continued flogging of poor dead Old Paint has become a rather pernicious waste of pixels.

Fast and Furious, Benghazi or speculation regarding the aftermath of fiscal cliff diving are all much more interesting. I'd rather dig John Dewey up and hang him a few more times than see any more pixels wasted on Ankeny &c.

Rick Ballard

"if DoT agreed with everything TK has posted how would that advance anything?"

It wouldn't, not even by a micron. The issue is not justicable and, given that the Kendonesian commie will never be on a ballot again, the continued flogging of poor dead Old Paint has become a rather pernicious waste of pixels.

Fast and Furious, Benghazi or speculation regarding the aftermath of fiscal cliff diving are all much more interesting. I'd rather dig John Dewey up and hang him a few more times than see any more pixels wasted on Ankeny &c.

narciso

I regard Armitage, in a lower category but the same general species as James Webb, he lost the policy fight on Iraq, as a consolation prize he got one of the companies he was on the board of CAC, into Iraq, one of those which would turn out to be hip deep in Abu Ghraib, Valerie ticked off, everyone in the top levels of State, so he complained to Woodward, Miller, et al, but didn't
make it explicit, leaving Libby to 'twist in the wind' Ted Wells, his attorney is very good, but even he 'couldn't work around the stupid,' in that jury room,

rse

You know Rick. His mortal body had its final days in 1952 but I do not think there is any academic who has stayed so fully in vogue as Dear Naive John. In fact, when the Dean of Columbia deemed him and Progressivism dead in the late 50s, it was about the time Maxine Greene wrote her dissertation on him.

His views are just too useful for the Statists and once the Identity Clowns realized they had to take down Individualism to take down capitalism, it seems to have had the effect of mummifying him.

Most overrated individual of the 20th continues mayhem into the 21st could have been an alternative title.

He would not like being called an individual though and his preferred philosopher and psychologist just bolsters the silly theories.

narciso

From the wiki, already a distressing flag;

In addition to his ideas regarding what education is and what effect it should have on society, Dewey also had specific notions regarding how education should take place within the classroom. In The Child and the Curriculum (1902), Dewey discusses two major conflicting schools of thought regarding educational pedagogy. The first is centered on the curriculum and focuses almost solely on the subject matter to be taught. Dewey argues that the major flaw in this methodology is the inactivity of the student; within this particular framework, "the child is simply the immature being who is to be matured; he is the superficial being who is to be deepened" (1902, p. 13).[26] He argues that in order for education to be most effective, content must be presented in a way that allows the student to relate the information to prior experiences, thus deepening the connection with this new knowledge.

Sue

You too TK.

Sue

Captain

My person al opinion was Fitzgerald threatened him with prosecution if he talked.

narciso

And there would have been no case, Armitage's disclosure would have proven that Valerie's name
was not top secret, that her supposed status, was germaine to any discussion why she butted into State Department business, as Armitage was complaining, the stickler is that Libby had 'saved his six' as they would say in the Navy, so it wasn't a mere policy dustup, but Libby
probably regarded it as a personal betrayal

AC

///Not sure they found any on the seats but in any event IIRC they concluded the residue they found would have been gone after sitting in saltwater as long as the wreckage had and therefore it must have come off of the Navy ships salvaging the wreck. That coupled with no physical damage typical of high explosives seemed a pretty good explanation to me.///

Never saw that explanation. What I saw was a story about a bomb-sniffing dog exercise at STL a few weeks before, where a trainer had laid packs of explosives on the seats, which was supposed to explain it. How would the Navy activity transfer that residue?

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

This stuff has gone on so long that there are now many rabbit trails leading who knows where but the basic problem is, TK is arguing for the most part what the law should be and what at least some founders believed it should be and DoT is arguing what the state of the law has become and is or would be were it ruled on directly now.

One is largely a philosophical argument the other largely a legal one and consequently is irresolvable since they aren't even speaking the same language.
It's possible for an outsider like me to agree with both but not apparently for the two principals.

Jim Eagle

Watching ESPN and they don't have the ID of the Kansas City Chief player who killed his girlfriend then when to the practice facility and committed suicide.

But Jim Hoft at Gateway Pundit has the name and circumstances.

Bloggers beat MSM again.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Never saw that explanation. What I saw was a story about a bomb-sniffing dog exercise at STL a few weeks before, where a trainer had laid packs of explosives on the seats, which was supposed to explain it. How would the Navy activity transfer that residue?

Posted by: AC | December 01, 2012 at 11:54 AM--

Well you made me resort to wiki (I know, but this article seems pretty well done and sourced and is worth reading in its entirety) to make sure I IIRCed;

Further examination of the airplane structure, seats, and other interior components found no damage typically associated with a high-energy explosion of a bomb or missile warhead ("severe pitting, cratering, petalling, or hot gas washing").[79] This included the pieces on which trace amounts of explosives were found.[79] Of the 5 percent of the fuselage that was not recovered, none of the missing areas were large enough to have covered all the damage that would have been caused by the detonation of a bomb or missile.[79] None of the victims' remains showed any evidence of injuries that could have been caused by high-energy explosives.[79]

The NTSB considered the possibility that the explosive residue was due to contamination from the aircraft's use in 1991 transporting troops during the Gulf War or its use in a dog-training explosive detection exercise about one month before the accident.[80] However, testing conducted by the FAA's Technical Center indicated that residues of the type of explosives found on the wreckage would dissipate completely after 2 days of immersion in sea water (almost all recovered wreckage was immersed longer than 2 days).[81] The NTSB concluded that it was "quite possible" that the explosive residue detected was transferred from military ships or ground vehicles, or the clothing and boots of military personnel, onto the wreckage during or after the recovery operation and was not present when the aircraft crashed into the water.[81]

Although it was unable to determine the exact source of the trace amounts of explosive residue found on the wreckage, the lack of any other corroborating evidence associated with a high-energy explosion led the NTSB to conclude that "the in-flight breakup of TWA flight 800 was not initiated by a bomb or missile strike."[81]

I didn't realize already operational planes were retro-fitted with nitrogen systems, if that is what you're saying.

Danube of Thought

When I read this, I think about our trolls and actually smile:

WASHINGTON (CBS DC) – The median net worth of American households has dropped to a 43-year low as the lower and middle classes appear poorer and less stable than they have been since 1969.

According to a recent study by New York University economics professor Edward N. Wolff, median net worth is at the decades-low figure of $57,000 (in 2010 dollars). And as the numbers in his study reflect, the situation only appears worse when all the statistics are taken as a whole.

It's all here.
|

Captain Hate

Thanks for the Armitage responses.

That KC situation is very sad and disturbing.

narciso

Seriously, Captain, and as the commenter says, who 'puts dissapointing season' in this context.

Danube of Thought

What I gather from this portion of the holding in Indiana are two things:

1.) Minor's definition of "Natural Born" is considered, by the Indiana Court, to be part of the holding in Minor.

Wrong. Everyone who reads the case knows that the holding in Minor was that a woman has no constitutional right to vote. It has long been evident that you are impervious to any guidance as to what is the holding in a case.

2.) Minor's "doubts" regarding birthright citizenship should not have existed if the Founders were steeped and quite reverential towards the ECL definition of "natural born".

As has been pointed out, the Minor Court was not expressing its own doubts (it was, after all, not required to consider the question), but only alluding to the fact that others (unidentified and uncited) had expressed such doubts. As you well know, I said the Founders were steeped in and reverential toward the English Common Law; I did not say that they or anyone else was steeped in or reverential toward a particular definition. I only suggest that it would be natural for them to use the term in its common-law meaning, instead of giving it the meaning ascribed to a Swiss treatise-writer. The English Common Law uses the term "natural born"; Vattel does not.

AC

///I didn't realize already operational planes were retro-fitted with nitrogen systems, if that is what you're saying.///


My turn to use Wiki...


The proposed rule would affect all future fixed-wing aircraft designs (passenger capacity greater than 30), and require a retrofit of more than 3,200 Airbus and Boeing aircraft with center wing fuel tanks, over nine years. The FAA had initially planned to also order installation on cargo aircraft, but this was removed from the order by the Bush administration. Additionally, regional jets and smaller commuter planes would not be subject to the rule, because the FAA does not consider them at high risk for a fuel-tank explosion. The FAA estimated the cost of the program at US$808 million over the next 49 years, including US$313 million to retrofit the existing fleet. It compared this cost to an estimated US$1.2 billion "cost to society" from a large airliner exploding in mid-air. The proposed rule comes at a time when nearly half of the U.S. airlines' capacity is on carriers that are in bankruptcy.[2]

Not sure why cargo jets would be exempted, since they could explode as well. Maybe others can explain.

I'm just saying, 800 was the only crash in memory that involved the CIA. Maybe the Clinton folks felt it was necessary to allay the conspiracists, but most would say such participation would only fuel them.

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

Iggy, my problem is when I challenge the "legal" argument. I am not using a philosophical approach, at least I don't think I am, when I ask for confirmation from the resident legal scholar on a holding that he brought up.

He says Ankeny has a persuasive relevant holding. He says Minor has non-persuasive irrelevant dicta.

Ankeny, in their holding, says the "dicta" in Minor is actually part of the holding.

I am not a lawyer so I don't deserve the free education that allows lawyers to make sense out of that position.

Either Ankeny is full of dicta and Minor is full of dicta, or Ankeny's holding proves that Minor was a citizenship case.

If there is a legal explanation, I am all ears.

Danube of Thought

The true conservatives, DoT and Clarice, hold the position that if an Iranian hangs her ass just inside our border, shits out a kid, takes the kid back to Iran until the kid is 21, and brings the Iranian-American back to his birthright country for 14 years, that kid meets the eligibility requirements as the Congress has elaborated on them.

I might add that at 21 it is unlikely that the "kid" would be brought here by his mother. And of course, although at age 35 he would be just as eligible as John McCain was, with his resume he would probably find it difficult to secure the nomination, let alone get elected.

Clarice

My personal opinion and I could never prove it is that Armitage was not the only leaker, Andrea Mitchell was very very close to Colin Powell and I think he told her. Her notes had something the judge briefly said might force him to compel her to testify and then NBC lawyers talked him out of it; Russert says if "one of us knew all of us knew" and when first approached by the FBI conceded it was entirely possible that it was HE who told Libby. I think all of NBC was thrown into the fight to keep Powell's toga spotless.

Can't prove it though.

What we do know is that Armitage apparently confessed to Powell and the two of them with the Dept of State's counsel told Gonzales they had some info they had given to Fitz and Gonzales quite properly did not ask for specifics. Honorable men would have gone to the president and confessed and he'd have called off the witch hunt.

narciso

No the CIA investigating Pam 103, and there are some issues with whether they narrowed their focus to Kusa's operational group, rather then include the likes of Jibril's PFPC, and Revolutionary Guard elements, also it wasn't a crash, it was an explosion, also the UTA case, probably had some investigations,

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

I will try again.

Danube, are you saying that Ankeny did not refer to Minor's citizenship language as something the court "held"?

Also, when the Minor court said: "at common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar,..." does this not mean they researched what the Founders believed?

Lastly, since we both agree the the exact language "natural born citizen" is not found in Vatell can we also agree that "natural born citizen" is not found in ECL? For that matter is the word "President", as used in the United States, found in ECL?

narciso

As with Lockerbie, there seemed to be pattern of possibly more than one culprit, Senussi, the future head of the Mukharabat was certainly implicated:


On July 18, 2011, former Libyan foreign minister Abdel Rahman Shalgham, who had defected from the Libyan government in March at the beginning of what would become the 2011 Libyan civil war, told al-Hayat that the Libyan government was responsible for the bombing of UTA Flight 772. He stated "The Libyan security services blew up the plane. They believed that opposition leader Mohammed al-Megrief was on board, but after the plane was blown up, it was found that he was not on the plane." He also claimed that “The Lockerbie operation was more complex ... the role of states and organizations has been discussed, and while the Libyan services were implicated, I do not think it was a purely Libyan operation.[17]”

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

You know I should not have continued.

This will do no one any good.

Fin

Danube of Thought

Ankeny, in their holding, says the "dicta" in Minor is actually part of the holding

Wrong. The holding in Ankeny is as follows:


Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents.

narciso

You know, Clarice, that's entirely possible, Powell would have had ultimate authority over INR, which is where Armitage got his information, he had other reasons to sandbag
the administration, notably the concerns relayed to him, by his tennis partner, Prince Bandar, from his Saudi friends,

Danube of Thought

can we also agree that "natural born citizen" is not found in ECL?

Yes. But the term "natural born subject" is.


For that matter is the word "President", as used in the United States, found in ECL?

No. It is found in the US Constitution, which does not purport to be ECL. Its terms, however, have been undestood from 1787 to the present to be interpreted, mutatis mutandis, by resort to ECL.

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

Aughh!! I do want to let this go, but I can't when the resident expert out and out lies.

" as the Congress has elaborated on them."

Them being the eligibility requirements.

Find one congressional elaboration that says citizen and natural born citizenship are synonymous. Find one congressional elaboration that says an anchor baby is eligible.

All there is is a non-binding resolution that refers to McCain having two citizen parents. Nothing else.

I look bad to everybody else because they are afraid to challenge you when you lie to keep yourself propped up.

Janet

Wilson & Plame were known all over DC. The cocktail circuit. The idea that Plame was some secret agent that no one was suppose to know is ludicrous.
Dana Priest from the WaPo is married to William Goodfellow who got Wilson speaking gigs for heaven's sake.

So much of the outrage & headline news stirred up during W's presidency was totally bogus. There was no crime or misbehavior at all. Plame, the appointment of attorneys at DOJ (they were appointment positions!), Abu Ghraib (a crime already exposed & being prosecuted before the pics came out). I coulda understood Abu Ghraib if there had been a coverup or something...but the losers were being prosecuted.
The injustice to the Bush administration makes the adoration of Obama that much more sickening to me.

Captain Hate

I think all of NBC was thrown into the fight to keep Powell's toga spotless.

The hypocrisy of the lefties that I bother even briefly discussing politics with was convincingly revealed in this whole thing. The ones that were convinced that it was Rove or Cheney kept badgering me to admit that the outing of this latter day Mata Hari was a bad thing; to which I responded that nobody seemed concerned with all the yacking going on then about it but if she was somebody important whose security had been compromised then that would be a bad thing. Now Powell, despite having no current official status in the administration, is diligently trotted out to lend an aura of something when the Benghazi coffins were returned and nobody on the left acts like it's anything but appropriate for the situation.

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

Why did a "failure to state a claim" holding need the language of WKA?

Within the "guidance" of WKA, Minor's language regarding citizenship was cited, but you contend Minor, after being cited by both WKA and independently by Ankeny was not about citizenship in addition to voting rights.

I don't follow.

Did WKA conclude that ark was a "citizen" or a "natural born citizen"?

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

" Its terms, however, have been undestood from 1787 to the present to be interpreted, mutatis mutandis, by resort to ECL." except by the Minor court.

narciso

Yet these same people can't get angry when actual
covert operations, like the rendition flights,
or Zubeydah's interrogator, are revealed not only to press, but to the terrorists in question,

Captain Hate

Or want to "get past" Benghazi...

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Thanks for that wiki excerpt, AC.
Presumably the cost to benefit ratio on fitting cargo planes was considered too high considering there's typically only a couple of drivers on board.

Coming soon to a theater near you, JOM's daddy in the remake of "They Were Expendable". :)

boris

alleged assertion that "natural born" (a term he never used) required two parents

Vattel did not write "Law Of Nations" in English so of course nothing he wrote would use those words.

The Minor definition of NBC is an obvious paraphrase (which DoT denies) of the English translation of the Vattel definition from "Law Of Nations". Other courts say other things but this was a SCOTUS judge and within living memory of times when the term NBC was commonly understood.

Terms used for British subjects and USA citizens are not automatically identical just because the founders respected ECL. They also respected Vattel and used "Law Of Nations" as a guide for the advances and improvements over ECL they designed into the US system of government.

Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)

I am all hot and bothered again.

Start your betting pool because I am making a pledge.

I will never discuss NBC with DoT again. I will continue to post links that I find relevant in a style keeping with my agreement with JMH. If anybody wants to have a real dialog about NBC, I will take it to a dead thread.

Place your bets on how long it will last.


Off to hang Christmas lights.

Danube of Thought

Lawrence B. Solum:

The notion of a "natural born citizen" was likely a term of art derived from the idea of a "natural born subject" in English law-a category that most likely did not extend to persons, like Senator McCain, who were born outside sovereign territory. But the Constitution speaks of "citizens" and not "subjects," introducing uncertainties and ambiguities that might (or might not) make McCain eligible for the presidency.

What was the original public meaning of the phrase that establishes the eligibility for the office of President of the United States? There is general agreement on the core of its meaning. Anyone born on American soil whose parents are citizens of the United States is a "natural born citizen." Anyone whose citizenship is acquired after birth as a result of naturalization is not a natural born citizen. John McCain, born to American parents in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936, had citizenship conferred by statute in 1937, but there is dispute as to whether the statute granted retroactive naturalization or whether it merely confirmed preexisting law under which McCain was an American citizen at birth. That leaves John McCain in a twilight zone-neither clearly naturalized nor natural born.

Antonin Scalia:

In interpreting this text, we are guided by the principle that "[t]he Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning." . . . Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding generation.

The first congressional elaboration was in the Act of 1790 establishing that persons born to US parents outside the US were natural-born citizens. That Act was repealed five years later, but it establishes the congressional power to define the term. Subsequent elaborations are found in Title 8 US Code, which defines who shall be a "citizen at birth." Given the Founders' purpose in imposing the natural-born requirement, the two terms are identical.

Find one congressional elaboration that says an anchor baby is eligible.

Title 8 US Code Section 1401(a).

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Wilson/Plame