Dumb And Dumber

David Gregory's point about banning large capacity magazines was that such a law might save a life or two.

But would such a ban actually be effective and enforceable? A question for Mr. Gregory - in terms of black market activity and keeping high capacity magazines away from aspiring criminals, does he think that manufacturing a thirty dollar metal box with springs is too complex for a criminal enterprise to undertake?

How would he rank the complexity of manufacturing a magazine with, hmm, distilling whiskey? Growing and harvesting marijuana? Converting opium to heroin? Converting Sudafed to chrystal meth?

My goodness - the drug cartels can make mini-subs. Will we really be able to stop determined criminals from buying steel boxes with springs?

Well. Banning high capacity magazines is a feel-good exercise that will show the world that we have Done Something, so Obama et all will back it. For the "Dumber" entry to this post, let's check out this logically deficient and politically impossible suggestion from a Big Data expert:

How Big Data Can Solve America's Gun Problem

Big data might have stopped the massacres in Newtown, Aurora, and Oak Creek. But it didn't, because there is no national database of gun owners, and no national record-keeping of firearm and ammunition purchases. Most states don't even require a license to buy or keep a gun.

That's a tragedy, because combining simple math and the power of crowds could give us the tools we need to red flag potential killers even without new restrictions on the guns anyone can buy. Privacy advocates may hate the idea, but an open national database of ammunition and gun purchases may be what America needs if we're ever going to get our mass shooting problem under control.

An open natonal database, so we can all peruse it? Yes, I think privacy advocates will hate it.

The power of this idea is illustrated with a flawed example and a non-example:

Just look at the gun-acquiring backgrounds of some of our more recent mass killers to see what I mean. James Holmes, the Aurora shooting suspect, went to three different locations spread out over 30 miles to legally buy his four weapons. All three were reputable outdoors retail chain stores. He then went online, and bought thousands of rounds of ammunition along with assault gear. UPS delivered around 90 packages to Holmes at his medical campus in that short period. It doesn't take a PhD in statistics to see that a quick, massive buildup of arms like this by a private individual -- especially one, like Holmes, who was known in his community for having growing mental health issues -- should raise a red flag.

And a bonus observation - Holmes was a careful planner who knew his purchases weren't being tracked. Unless we can implement this vast open database without actually telling anyone about it, I think we have to assume that killers like Holmes will adjust their purchasing strategy to account for surveillance. Maybe he would have bought fewer weapons and less ammo, or extended his purchasing time frame (which would have been helpful depending on the progression of his unraveling.) Maybe he would have included Molotov cocktails in his arsenal, thereby prompting a call for the monitoring of gasoline sales.

Abd what is the baseline? We have no data as to how unusual such a purchasing pattern might be, or how many false positives such a screen might generate. That, in itself, might not be a reason not to try, but it is surely a reason for tempered optimism.

On to the non-example:

In Newtown, Adam Lanza carried hundreds of rounds -- enough to kill every student in the Sandy Hook Elementary school if he had not been stopped. But he also attempted to destroy his hard drives to cover his pre-rampage digital tracks. Clearly he feared the data he left behind.

Huh? We don't know what data was concealed, but we have little reason to think he was concealing a purchasing pattern that Big Data could have red-flagged.

Author Marc Parrish explains that the science is simple:

I can say based on experience that this kind of record-keeping would be an inconsequential task to set up, and the data science to analyze it trivial. Massive efforts are going into far smaller things, such as which TV program is most engaging for soap buyers who have DVRs, and which pitcher/batter combinations lead to better baseball.

Groan. I am not trying to conceal from Hollywood my interest in "The Walking Dead" or my disdain for the Kardashians. But anyone who knew his gun and ammuition purchases were being monitored might mask his behavior. Join a gun club and buy an amount of ammo suitable for weekend target practice, for example.

We are offered an unconvincing privacy argument:

The NRA's opposing argument will be that it is an invasion of privacy for gun owners. But in our post-9/11 world, we already have ample precedents to do this. Go into any airport and see what happens when you try and buy a ticket with cash on the next flight out. You will not board the flight without security calling you aside for questions.

As an aside, I very much doubt he is speaking from experience on the cash-ticketing question, and Slate says he might be wrong. No matter - this example has nothing to do with data bases and ongoing surveillance. The suspicious act triggers the immediate response; no data base of a person's past travel behavior is necesary.

Next example:

Go into a pharmacy in dozens of states and buy cold medicine and you will be asked for ID and tracked in the NPLEX database.

Yeah, we need to adopt a regimen as popular and successful as our War on Drugs.

Let me add that I am especially disappointed in this article because the underlying concept is potentially fascinating.

My understanding is that in the last election campaign, Team Obama was very clever in their use of Big Data. They started with their database of declared supporters. They then sifted that database (in conjunction with data purchased from the internet marketing firms) to develop profiles of their voters in terms of books they liked, web sites they visted, items they bought, or whatever else they could track. Then - the key bit - they found other voters who overlapped with the profile in key respects but had not yet gotten behind Obama. These folks were then subjected to targeted marketing of The One, with some success. (Just picture searching for a book at Amazon and learning that people who bought that book also liked three other books, two CDs, a movie, and a Presidential candidate. Why not?)

Would such profiling work on mass murderers? Is sufficient internet history available for those (relatively few) killers, and are there useful overlaps in their profiles? Put another way, could a creative and motivated marketing firm come up with a meaningful way to target mass murderers? That is the article I wanted to read. Oh, well.

Comments

[Melinda Romanoff on Kindle]

Do not bring up iinstitutionalizing the mentally ill.

[Danube of Thought]

And once you red-flag a Holmes or a Lanza, what do you do?

[MarkO]

Freedom is so, so hard to control.

[centralcal]

Dumb = Obama

and Dumber = those who voted for him

[Danube of Thought]

They used to say the Viet Cong were manufacturing AK 47's in bicycle shops. Not sure about that, but it would be child's play for such a shop to manufacture magazines for them.

I believe I read that in the week after Sandy Hook 3.5 years worth of hugh-capacity magazines were sold. How many countless millions of them are already held by the public? If possession is outlawed, how many people will be arrested who, like David Gregory, "obviously didn't intend to commit a crime?"

It defies belief the extent to which the debate has focused entirely on menacing-looking inanimate objects, when the lunatics who are using them for mass murder have so many alternative means at hand.

[narciso]

The commenters on that piece, aren't buying the premise,

[Jimmyk]

No doubt if we gave up our freedom and turned into Singapore we'd have a more orderly society. I don't see that happening, so it's a pointless discussion.

[Craig Pirrong]

Bayes' Theorem implies that none of these intrusive surveillance techniques is likely to prove any real ability to predict who will commit mass murder.

[Rob Crawford]

Do not bring up iinstitutionalizing the mentally ill.

Journalists oppose this because they know they're the first in line for institutionalization.

[narciso]

Well focusing on that, avoids other thornier issues, (h/t; PW)

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/?p=827

[Jane - Mock the Media!]

DOt,

The Steyn article you linked in the last thread is spectacular.

When will David Gregory speak out? I hear he is partying with Hillary as I write this.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

-- I hear he is partying with Hillary as I write this.--

Isn't that punishment enough?
I think I might opt for 10-20 making big rocks into small ones.

[Beasts of England]

Boy, oh boy! If we can just get the brilliant scientists who - rather amazingly - have found a causal relationship between carbon dioxide and (formerly) rising temperatures, imagine the predictive accuracy they'll have with gun / ammo purchases and mass murderers... Problem solved!

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Here's a thought;
Rather than invading the privacy of millions of innocent people engaging in their constitutional rights how about invading the privacy of people diagnosed as psycho/sociopaths, anti social PD's, narcissists, schizophrenics, etc and track their behavior?
Sure most of them are innocent too but there are less of them than gun owners and as far as I know there is no constitutional right to be a nut...yet.

[Cecil Turner]

Just look at the gun-acquiring backgrounds of some of our more recent mass killers to see what I mean.

Seriously? Why resort to sifting gun-buying habits of all Americans, when you could do something useful, like red-flagging the nutjobs? Even the NRA supports that one.

The reason, of course, is that it's an article of faith that gun control is the answer . . . and that it doesn't matter whether it would've stopped any of these incidents (there are obviously more effective approaches), or that some gun control legislation (e.g., "gun-free" zones) is actively counterproductive . . . any incident proves the gun controllers were right, and that more of the same will make us all happier (or something like that).

[narciso]

They seem entitled to office, way to go, Karl, no seriously;

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/headlines/20121227-exclusive-david-dewhurst-campaign-says-aide-stole-at-least-600000.ece

[Threadkiller]

Something he knows how to do:

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Good afternoon everybody.

For the past couple of months, I’ve been working with leaders of both parties to try and forge an agreement...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/president-obamas-remarks-on-the-fiscal-cliff-negotiations-dec-28-2012-transcript/2012/12/28/5fbb3abc-513b-11e2-950a-7863a013264b_story.html

What will he forge next?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

LOL, TK.

[Danube of Thought]

"track their behavior"

Much easier said than done, I fear. I believe there are a hell of a lot of schizos and assorted nutballs who will never commit mass murder. Even forced institutionaliztion of such people would be a very expensive process.

[narciso]

Speaking of irrational behavior, it occurred to me, that Obama reminds me of Dennis Hopper's character in 'Speed,' that rigged the bus to blow, if it went under 55 mph,

[Pops]

"""Team Obama was very clever intheir use of Big Data. They started with their database of declared supporters. They then sifted that database ..."

I suspect we will find they used alot of information on welfare, etc. to target their base voters.

[Pops]

Its easy to get Mr. Gregory to the ultimate answer:

Q: David, would you allow law enforcement to have 30 round clips? And why?

David: Well, yes, I guess you would have to.

Q: Why?

David: In case they came up against a bad guy with a 30 round clip, you wouldn't want them to be outgunned.

Q: Then why do you want the average citizen out gunned by the bad guys?

[Pops]

Boehner has been a fool.

The Republicans, from the begginning should have said we will either revert to the Democrat tax rates or maintain the Republican tax rates.

[narciso]

One tried to spare, but they insisted, specially if you live in a deep blue state, to get kicked in the teeth, repeatedly by voting for Obama, I know sensible people, are also along for the ride,

[Rick Ballard]

"does he think that manufacturing a thirty dollar metal box with springs is too complex for a criminal enterprise to undertake?"

TK,

How long would it take you to jig up, cut the bottom off of one 15 round magazine, the top off a second one and weld the two together?

Why would anyone bother manufacturing?

[richatuf]

Good evening folks, catching up on the threads.

Pops-

boston.com had a nice write up of the Obama's use of Big Data. Had campaign operatives down to a 50 to 1 ratio. A bit scary to think about. brb.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

For daddy;
Duke guy hits a 79 yard punt that stops on the one yard line.
Especially for daddy; Cincinnati then marches 99 yards for TD and evenutally wins game.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--How long would it take you to jig up, cut the bottom off of one 15 round magazine, the top off a second one and weld the two together?--

Many magazines have reduced capacity by the installation of a filler block and shorter spring with the same outside dimensions as before. All you need in that case is a spring.

[narciso]

What's the reason for that, Ignatz;

[JerryRigged]

I wanted to see what the murder rate was if the major cities (>250k) were removed, so I did it (hope there are no errors). Don't live in a large city...seems kinda dangerous...

LUN for the file. (Need MS Excel '07 or '10...)

[JerryRigged]

It is the colored chart...the first chart is some of the numbers I was working with...

[richatuf]

Let me add that I am especially disappointed in this article because the underlying concept is potentially fascinating.

Or we could sit through Minority Report. Same disappointment, same great concept.

Michio Kaku has also looked at this as a futurist in his 2057 series (sort of).

[sbw]

What's the reason for that, Ignatz

To make it appear like you are playing with a full clip.

[centralcal]

Just loving Drudge right now. Barack Hussein Lincoln.

Naturally, I would do this to the Lincoln part, and just leave it at Hussein.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Well, I suppose I could say it keeps the look of a high capacity magazine and reduces tooling costs if they're already set up for that size magazine but mostly it's so you can just pull out the block and stick a long spring in it.

Same thing with pump and auto shotguns. It's generally illegal to hunt with more than a 3 round magazine so they insert a plug in the magazine tube and a shorter spring. For home defense purposes the plug can be removed and it turned into a five, six or even eight shot magazine.
It is not unheard of for hunters to do the same but the fines and penalties can be substantial if caught.

[richatuf]

Did anything come of that fiscal cliff meeting at the White House or was it more pr, more preening?

[narciso]

Except in minority report, it wasn't analytical, it was a certain insight the seers had from childhood exposure to a narcotic,

[Free State Paul]

RELIABLE magazines are a lot harder to manufacture than you might think. Go buy some cheapo mags at a gun show and you'll see what I mean.

[richatuf]

I suspect we will find they used alot of information on welfare, etc. to target their base voters.

I also wanted to add that they had people on their team that had worked at Facebook and Google so the possibility they were working with proprietary data shouldn't be ruled out. If they were, the violations would be quietly forgotten, because nothing was more important than electing the cool guy, y'know.

And law enforcment uses link visualization and social network analysis tools (can't remember which sheriff's office in Florida made it a specality) but when they would break up a meth ring or perscription drug ring they'd bring in 30 or 40 people for all sorts of crimes in addition to the drug charges to break it up.

[richatuf]

narciso-

oops, probably should have stayed awake to watch the whole thing. stepped on my own line.

[narciso]

Well I've seen it more than a few times, the title, in the film, refers to some of the alternate posibilities in certain given situation, I don't know if that was in the original PKD story,

[narciso]

In the story, it seems Anderton serves the function that Max Von Sydow does in the film,

[richatuf]

Thanks tk for the transcript. Still catching up.

[Gus]

Obama the Jug ear Mf'er wants us over the cliff. He doesn't give a crap about anything but his MARXIST dream. All the talk is beyond silly. Obama is a piece of crap. And I'm being nice.

[daddy]

Iggy,

Thanks for the link to that Duke Punter. I liked this line from the story: The good news is he’s a freshman. The bad news is Duke football will probably give him plenty of chances to practice his skill. Ha!

[richatuf]

Looks like an interesting read. Liked this from the wiki write up: "Precogs are deformed and retarded, "the talent absorbs everything"; "the esp-lobe shrivels the balance of the frontal area". They do not understand their predictions. Most of the data produced is useless for preventing murders and is passed to other agencies."

Not to dissimiliar to the black magic involved in sna.

[daddy]

Can you imagine the hollering that would be going on among the Press if it was a Republican President who announced today that he was giving Pay Raises to his VP? We would never hear the end of it until he resigned from office in disgrace.

[narciso]

Well daddy, when you have a prize like Biden who gave such good advice as not moving on Abbotabad, . . .never mind,

[richatuf]

Gus-

Let it all out! Looking over the transcript it doesn't seem "hopeful". And wouldn't both chambers have to be called into special session and have a quorum to pass something before the new year. I guess this is what we voted for, seeing Slim Pickens Obama riding the barrel over the cliff...

[Danube of Thought]

"John Kass, columnist for The Chicago Tribune, appeared on CNN on Friday where he discussed the tragic increase of violence and murder that has struck his city in recent years. He said that lawmakers and members of the press have been guilty of 'papering over' how bad the situation in Chicago was getting, and of 'ghettoizing' the minority children who become the victims of gun violence in the inner city. Kass concluded by challenging President Barack Obama to come to Chicago for the funeral of one of the 'hundreds and hundreds' of African-American and Latino children killed every year in gun crimes."

Fat chance. What's in it for him?

[richatuf]

daddy-

And all of in congress and federal workers. All those folks are working so hard and its a drop in the bucket.

[Gus]

Rich, the curse on me, is that I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND OBAMA. He is a filth.

[richatuf]

A 60 billion dollar package for Hurricane Sandy relief passed the Senate? Good grief.

[Danube of Thought]

Here come "root causes" again:

"Rev. Jesse Jackson appeared on CNN on Friday where he was pressed to defend Chicago’s strict gun control laws following the city’s 500th homicide, 87.5 percent of which are gun-related, this year. Jackson said that Chicago, unlike Newtown, has no gun culture – Newtown, Connecticut, having several gun ranges whereas Chicago has none. He also said that the pressing issues of poverty, unemployment and the lack of a sense of mobility in America’s urban centers are the root causes of gun violence.

"Jackson was asked to defend Chicago’s gun ban, given the staggering rates of gun violence in America’s cities compared to other areas that do not have such strict gun laws and experience less gun violence."

[Gus]

Danube, everyone knows that it's the TEA PARTY'S fault that Chicago is a hell hole.

[daddy]

Good News. Local Talk Radio is reporting that the Anchorage Daily News is going to start charging for access to their online stories because they're losing money.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rich-

Care to guess where they got the data to build a database like that? Here's a hint.

Not withstanding any laws barring its use for political purposes, of course.

[richatuf]

Paul Krugman knows what the problem is and he shares it for his New York Times audience: "OK, first of all, the fiscal cliff is NOT A DEBT PROBLEM. In fact, it’s the opposite: the danger is that with expiring tax cuts, expiring unemployment benefits, and the sequester, we’ll reduce the deficit too fast."

And he knows who to blame: "The reality is that Obama has moved a huge way both in offering to exempt more high-earner income from tax hikes and in offering to cut Social Security benefits; meanwhile, the GOP not only won’t agree to any kind of tax hike at all, it also has yet to make any specific offer of any kind."

and who is wicked in all of this: "I’d put Fix the Debt in the predatory category; it’s quite clear that the organization (which is yet another Pete Peterson front, this time explicitly dominated by corporate interests) has an agenda more focused on cutting social insurance and corporate taxes than on reducing the deficit per se."

[Gus]

it's almost like Obama's peeps are "Community Organizers".

[Gus]

No gun culture in Chicago.

Jesse Jacksoff actually said that.

Clown.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rich-

You don't think there might be some sort of envy over some sort of high paying asset management firm that he got shot down at, would you? Even though the firm, largely, is sympathetic to his other causes.

[richatuf]

Mel-

Pretty sure that the data that they could buy (and not taking into account what they could get in violation of terms of service agreements for free) would be more useful than what they could get from the Census. IIRC the administration had push back when they tried to move the Census to the WH and tried to replace the BLS director with a political crony and not a time server.

It is probable though they did, and even if we had videotaped evidence and teary-eyed confessions to same, nothing would happen. Obama ran a gun smuggling operation into Mexcio and Issa sent some strongly worded letters. Who knows what sort of illegal operation they were running in Benghazi and we still haven't heard a peep from Clinton and for timeservers in the State Department will be back to work in the new year.

[MattB]

"three different locations spread out over 30 miles to legally buy his four weapons"

Sweet jeez, does this guy not know gun owners? I know three friends who have done that in the past month. Hell, one has bought 10 guns at 6 different places in the past 4 months. And these guys aren't mass shooters. Just normal gun owners.

[Gus]

Rich, Clinton was busy stopping the KEY STONE PIPELINE from crossing the CANADIAN BORDER. It's that absurd.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Gus-

No gun culture at all, just a dedicated group of free lance structural aerators. Some soft tissue may be involved, but it's not their fault.

Not going to talk about the "lost" Cook County Sheriff's firearm inventory, every year. Every year. Taxpayers buying and the County "loses" stuff. Can't make this stuff up.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rich-

The census data matches addresses to the data given, nobody else is supposed to get that. That "Privacy" thing. Obviously, not anymore.

[Gus]

But Mel, we can't be trusted with guns, because we are not trained and would have BAD AIM. The criminals seem to get the job done!

[richatuf]

You don't think there might be some sort of envy over some sort of high paying asset management firm that he got shot down at, would you?

What? Krugman would take to the pages of the NYT to attack someone whom he feels slighted him? I'd expect nothing less from a former Enron advisor.

Regarding "Fix the Debt", a corporate tax cut would probably help, but most of their other policy proposals are an IMF structural adjustment program and those programs have a nasty habit of not turning out as expected. I am hoping that 2013 we see the retirment of "unexpectedly" in economics news. I expect to be disappointed.

[narciso]

Well he wasn't merely an Enron advisor, but one taken in by a 'fake' trading desk, yes ESA's are much like the Whizzo Chocolate assortment 'a spring surprise'

[richatuf]

The census data matches addresses to the data given, nobody else is supposed to get that.,/i>

You can also match addresses from mailing lists. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, it's just that when they have a team made up of technology nerds from Twitter, Facebook, et al, it'd be easier to go to the grey areas of the law instead of outright breaking the law.

MIT has another write up.

[richatuf]

damn it.

[richatuf]

fixed...

[Danube of Thought]

What happened to Duke in the final two minutes shouldn't happen to a reptile.

[jimmyk]

Ramirez:

Click for full size.

[Gus]

Who the fug is Krugman? Which corporations has he run to success? He's a bearded loser with libtard running down his leg.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I'll show you bad aim, right after you teach me three Jimmy Page signature riffs, and Robin Trower's opening to "Living In The Day Of The Eagle". I hope you've got a spare mailbox (aka "target").

[Gus]

Mel, Henry has heard me play a little tiny bit. He and I and a pal watched QUEEN on PALADIA, and I was channeling my inner Brian May. I'm up for part of that challenge.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rich-

How many pages were your Census form? Ours was 8.

[Melinda Romanoff]

And you cover the fines for firearm discharge within City limits, Okay?

[Gus]

Mel, Chicago has no gun ranges. No GUN CULTURE there, ergo no crime, no shooting, no fines. Bingo.

[Melinda Romanoff]

So I'm not bringing anything 12 gauge to remove your mailbox. Good to know it doesn't exist.

G'night all!

[Gus]

It exists, and it's legal to shoot in my neighborhood!! Hope to see you soon Mel.

[richatuf]

mel, don't remember, think I carried the form we got in florida and mailed it when I was in va. Do remember getting a follow on phone call when my dad was in the middle of chemo though.

Let this roll around for a bit: "The Obama 2012 campaign used data analytics and the experimental method to assemble a winning coalition vote by vote. In doing so, it overturned the long dominance of TV advertising in U.S. politics and created something new in the world: a national campaign run like a local ward election, where the interests of individual voters were known and addressed."

They ran over 1000 ads on TV Land compared to Romney running zero.

Humm we have a national government that wants to be a bunch of ward heelers. Should work out well.

[Gus]

Rich, They gave us FREE HEALTH CARE and have 50 MILLLLLLLLLION HUNGRY AMERICANS being fed by THE GOVERNMENT.

What kind of a TEA BAGGER are you????

[narciso]

No, that's not it, it felt a lot like 2008, with the endless pounding on all the alphabet networks, and all the cable ones. About 2/3 of it were lies, of one kind or another, with the media reinforcing them, maybe TV Land was a part of it, I don't doubt, Now there wasn't a whole lot of coordination in this campaign, on the other side, it took them them three days to figure out what stance to take on Robert's betrayal. The only truly original bit, was the Eastwood monologue,

Chicago, where the buttonmen of Vegas were trained has no gun culture, it's breathtaking in it's audacity,

[Neo]

We all knew this was coming ...

MERIDEN, Connecticut (Reuters) - A $100 million claim on behalf of a 6-year-old survivor is the first legal action to come out of the Connecticut school shooting that left 26 children and adults dead two weeks ago.

The unidentified client, referred to as Jill Doe, heard "cursing, screaming, and shooting" over the school intercom when the gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, opened fire, according to the claim filed by New Haven-based attorney Irv Pinsky.

... "cursing, screaming, and shooting" ...

Sounds like a normal showing of "Django Unchained"

[Gus]

Narciso. I agree completely. And what is breathtaking, is the AUDCACITY of this LAWLESS administration to break laws, violate the separation of powers, and grab powers not enumerated to either the EXECUTIVE BRANCH nor the FEDERAL GOVT.

With NARY A PEEP from the GOP nor the MFM.

[narciso]

I imagine the cursing came from the shooter, and I still can't gauge a motive for it, that's such
a terrifying tableau to contemplate,

[Gus]

I guess freedom of speech has just been given a price tag of $100 million.

[Gus]

Narciso? The DEAD PERP, was ANGRY. That's a perfectly good reason to CURSE.

[bunkerbuster]

Tom's post argues against a position no one's taking: that gun registry and clip limits will prevent ALL mass murders by firearm.
Again, this is why conservatives have a reputation for being dumb and a bit crazy. Outside politics, they may well be very intelligent and totally sane. But get them going on politics and they simply refuse to engage the facts and instead crawl into their hermetically sealed opinion bubble where they schpeil out one fallacy after another clinging to their ideology as if it's the only thing keeping them alive.
For the umpteenth time: NO ONE claims gun control will eliminate harmful firearms use. The point is to REDUCE mass murder.
Got it?
The point is to REDUCE mass murder.

So if you want to carry on about how restrictions that hold down mass murders all over the world couldn't possibly work in the U.S., go right ahead. But stop beclowning yourselves with the idea that any measures that don't ELIMINATE the possibility for firearms crimes and mass murders is fatally flawed.
Got it?
The point is to REDUCE mass murders, and every single gun control advocate knows and acknowledges that some criminals and some murderers will indeed manage to beat the restrictions.
The point is to REDUCE firearms harm, as everyone knows it is not practically possible to eliminate it and still preserve gun rights.
Moreover, there is nothing whatsoever exclusive about increasing the availability and effectiveness of mental health care and imposing greater restrictions on gun ownership. So all of Tom's arguments suggesting that focus on one diminishes the other are just dumb and a bit nutty.

[Dave (in MA)]

Is a "large capacity magazine" anything like a high magazine clip?

[Gus]

I see ButtBuster has weighed in.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I try to avoid reading the rants of LIBTARDS. And in this case I have.

[cathyf]

Fixed?

[jimmyk]

italiacto!

[Captain Hate]

Communist regimes have murdered 100 million unarmed citizens. Is that enough mass murder, idiot?

[Gus]

Cathy? Are you suggesting the LIBTARDS get FIXED??? Is that in OBAMACARE??

[bunkerbuster]

Capt. Bigot: look up Venn diagram on wikipedia. Learn how to use them. If you'll do, you'll stop making analogies that make you look stupid.

[bunkerbuster]

Thanks Gus! We are in full agreement that you will not find what you're looking for in my comments.

[Gus]

Captain. I try to focus on real problems, like the 7000-8000 black on black hand guns murders each year in our nation. OH THE HUMANITY!!! But LIBTARDS don't EVER mention this PHENOMENON.

Why? Dear Lord Why??