Let's Ban Assault Weapons, Whatever The Heck They Are

The NY Times blows fog over an under-reported aspect of the Newtown massacre - although the Federal assault weapon ban lapsed in 2004, Connecticut maintained a parallel ban which mirrored the Federal law. The weapon used in Newton was bought in compliance with that law, which leaves us wondering - if it wasn't an assault weapon per Connecticut law, why does the press routinely refer to it as an assault weapon?

Maybe the media can report on the after-market modifications that moved this weapon out of compliance and turned it into an assault weapon as defined by the law. Or maybe they can admit that most of the "assault weapon" definition covers cosmetic modifications that make the gun look cooler on a Hollywood set or at the shooting range but have no relevance to its lethality. Grenade launcher fittings? Flash suppressors? Bayonet lugs? Really?

The obvious point to ponder - if this gun wouldn't have been banned by the Federal law, just what is the value of re-passing that law?

I think the real point of contention will be the clip size. Sen. Manchin of West Va is giving ground there. I have already noted that plenty of home defense experts opt for the classic pump shotgun with roughly a six or eight shell capacity. Thirty in the clip probably does make someone somewhere feel safer but I doubt that, taken in isolation, the home defense necessity will stand. Nor, following the massacre of school kids, are people in the mood to hear about how much fun it is to empty a thirty round clip at a target. Apparently in Newton the shooter was swapping out clips to reload, so smaller clips would have simply slowed him slightly. One might suggest that limiting clip size wouldn't have any notable impact and is simply a feel-good exercise, but right now people wouldn't mind feeling good.

Slippery slope arguments will probably find some traction - First, they came for the thirty round clips and I said nothing because I had a pump shotgun... But this is where the distrust on both sides makes any deal difficult (and the parallels to the abortion debate are striking).

The gun rights crowd knows, correctly, that some of the gun control crowd (now re-branding as the 'gun safety' crowd) would view any restriction on gun owners rights as an opportunity to seek further restrictions. The gun enthusiasts then insist that the controllers are just one vote away on the Supreme Court from enacting their entire agenda and that the extreme controllers are driving the other side's agenda.

Meanwhile the controllers insist that, although there are some extremists on their side, most of the controllers are reasonable and will be happy with sensible compromise. Yet somehow, the enthusiasts don't trust people like Mayor Bloomberg.

One hopes that folks like Sen. Manchin actually have some clout, because he probably is a true moderate on this topic. Unlike Bloomberg or, I would guess, Obama, who looks for all the world like a typical urban liberal who never fired a gun in his life and never saw a gun regulation he thought was too restrictive.

Comments

[Danube of Thought]

I'd love to hear some discussion about enforcement: what to do about the millions of "assault weapons" already in the stream of commerce? If they are banned tomorrow, is it really likely that anyone will dispose of them, or turn them in to authorities?

Since there is a manifest desire for them, isn't it readily apparent that if they are banned a black market for them will immediately arise, as with alcohol during prohibition or cocaine today? What sort of violence will attend that market? In what kinds of hands will the weapons end up?

A ban could unleash a new sort of unshirted hell that, after a time, will prompt cries for "legalization?"

[Rob Crawford]

Why does anyone need a book over 100 pages?

[NK]

I know I'm repeating myself, butI think TomM is right to speculate on legislation regarding .223 rifle and 9mm handgun magazine/clip size. It may be a useless 'feel good' exercise, but that's where the politics lie.

Mayor Nanny Bloomie? at least he's consistent, no firearms, for anyon.... except for law enforcement... and Billionaires who can afford to hire licensed security personnel-- that's fair right?

[boris]

"One might suggest that limiting clip size wouldn't have any notable impact and is simply a feel-good exercise, but right now people wouldn't mind feeling good."

At least it will keep the rogue elephants away.

There isn't a rogue elephant withing 3000 miles !

Exactly! See how well it works?

We should do even more now.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rob-

Or over a 100 yrs old?

Anybody catch MMoore's bodyguard violating Nanny Bloomberg's edict in Queens? A little heavy on the ferrous comedy gold scale.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

The only thing that possibly could have prevented this tragedy is not gun control but rather guns in the administration office of the school. Libs always over-react with legislation and government reach rather than understand the problem and take the most decisive action.

Probably worth reposting Tim Carney's excellent piece on "Media Myths on "assault weapons" and "semi-automatic firearms".

[Porchlight]

"One might suggest that limiting clip size wouldn't have any notable impact and is simply a feel-good exercise, but right now people wouldn't mind feeling good."

Because we all know that the point of legislation is to help people feel good.

[NK]

JiB-- in all honesty the only "thing that could have prevented this tragedy" is if Adam Lanza were never born.

[Rob Crawford]

Does anyone else get the impression the left has a vested interest in keeping the insane and dangerous on the streets?

[Melinda Romanoff]

NK-

Some form of institutional care would have gone a long way towards prevention.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rob-

It's a well known voting block here.

[Rob Crawford]

Because we all know that the point of legislation is to help people feel good.

And feel-good laws NEVER have unintended consequences.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

Has it been reported that Lanza used high capacity clips?

[Have Blue]

During Sandy Bloomberg would not authorize National Guard troops to back up civil authorities in the boroughs of New York. He specifically stated that (paraphrasing), The only guns I want in the area are the ones carried by the cops.

Here in Connecticut the Guard was sent to the beach neighbor hoods along Long Island Sound affected. My client supervisor is the father of one of the guardsmen (18 or 19 years old, less than 6 months out of basic) who was dispatched. He said to my immediate supervisor, when he got a text saying they were being deployed, "They won't be carrying guns, will they?"
My boss, former US Army MP said, "You bet your sweet bippy they will." Next day he confirmed that they were indeed armed with service rifles while on vehicle a foot patrol. Very little looting.

[Have Blue]

captha is back?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Also, the SEIU uses the state funds for their home care as a state mandated money maker.

[Have Blue]

and no captcha on comments mentioning (and misspelling) captcha.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Regardless of whether you use one of their members or not. You have to pay a cut to the SEIU. State law in Illinois.

[Rob Crawford]

It's a well known voting block here.

I think it's more than that. I think they see the chaos and pain the should-be-institutionalized create as useful.

We see endless campaigns about "poverty" that focus on the "homeless" -- but the "homeless" are nearly universally drug addicts or the mentally ill who have worn out their families and friends.

Now we're seeing repeated campaigns to disarm the public based on the acts of people who should have been institutionalized.

And notice how the attention the left gives to the mental illness factor is the same they give to spending cuts -- "yes, yes, we'll get to that, eventually, but first you give us [tax increases|gun bans]".

[Rob Crawford]

Has it been reported that Lanza used high capacity clips?

Doesn't matter. It's on the thug wishlist (so they can use numbers to overwhelm someone who can defend themselves), so it's part of the discussion.

Remember, this happened in a state with some of the strictest gun control laws, in a place where federal law says everyone must be disarmed.

[Rick Ballard]

RC,

If you start down that road you're going to wind up accusing the Commies of passing minimum wage laws in order to keep people unemployed. IOW - you're absolutely correct.

[Melinda Romanoff]

What?!? Using incapable political constituents as pawns? The deuce you say!

[Have Blue]

Heard last night a proposal, apparently serious, that since the gun-free zone in the school failed, we should extend the gun-free zone for a one mile perimeter around every school in America. Make violating the perimeter with a gun a federal felony. No person living in or traveling through the zone would be permitted to carry or posses a weapon.

Can't think of a major highway in Connecticut that wouldn't cross several such zones. And I would cross at least 4 or 5 that I can think of on my way to work.

[Rob Crawford]

I think we should make it illegal to perform a live broadcast (audio or video, broadcast or online) from within 10 miles of any crime committed in the last 48 hours.

[matt]

rob crawford, the Dem Left has a vested interest in keeping the insane and dangerous in Congress and the voting booth.

[Jim Ryan]

Take a break and listen to Matt Dennis himself singing Violets for Your Furs. A verse rivaled only by the verses of Stardust and Lush Life.

[NK]

Have Blue@1:36- to the anti-gun rights zealots, that is a feature of such a law....

[matt]

Bloomie is insane. NYPD cops are not allowed to carry off duty.

As to the Guard in many instances they have been sent out with their weapons but without ammunition. An M-16 is a lousy club anyway.

It is the uncertainty that I think works in the favor of order.

[Have Blue]

Connecticut has an "Assault Weapons" ban. However it is also a shall issue state with regard to carry permits. The local authorities have (or had, it's been a long time since I was involved in getting or helping others get permits) a large role in the initial permitting process. Some of the local authorities are very restrictive. (One new hire Security Officer, just out of the Marine Corp, ended up moving to expedite the process because the police chief in New Britain would not accept a personal recommendation from a non resident of the city or from anyone who had known the recomendee for less than two years.)

However once the local permit is obtained a State carry permit is supposed to be issued "within 30 (or 60, can't remember which) days. Senator Blumenthal, when he was Attorney General famously issued a memo stating that "within thirty days" meant "no less than thirty days".

[Rob Crawford]

However once the local permit is obtained a State carry permit is supposed to be issued "within 30 (or 60, can't remember which) days. Senator Blumenthal, when he was Attorney General famously issued a memo stating that "within thirty days" meant "no less than thirty days".

In Ohio, the courts can issue an instant carry permit for situations like threats of domestic violence -- how does CT handle that? Do they still drag their heels?

[Have Blue]

If you report that you may be a victim of domestic violence or try and get a protective order you have to turn in all of your firearms. Law is (or used to be, but see no reason these idiots would change it) that either party to a protective order was required to give up all of their guns.

Traveling to residences and confiscating guns became a big part of the Special Permits divisions job.

[Have Blue]

And if you have a Cary Permit and do not notify the Special Permits division (in writing IIRC) within two business days of a change of residence you are in violation of the law.

[Frau Schiessgewehr]

It's a good thing Mayor Bloomie wasn't around when Eric Holder and other Columbia Afro-American "soldiers" participated in an armed occupation of an ROTC office.
LUN

Right click to behold soldier Holder who has a long history dealing with arms.
I now denounce myself as a racist.

[Captain Hate]

Senator Blumenthal, when he was Attorney General famously issued a memo stating that "within thirty days" meant "no less than thirty days".

When you have a command of the meaning of words on top of a falsified military record, why not send him to the world's greatest deliberating body?

[henry]

either party to a protective order was required to give up all of their guns

Do they issue mops to the first responders? That law seems to guarantee harm to whomever seeks a protective order.

[Rob Crawford]

So a woman whose ex-husband is threatening to beat her to a pulp has to disarm herself?

Wow.

[Danube of Thought on IPad]

"Make violating the perimeter with a gun a federal felony."

Until about fifty years ago, most legislators in the congress and the states clearly understood why most crimes were matters of state law. Federal crimes were largely limited to those with an interstate character, or violations of a few statutes with clear fedral interests (securities fraud, mail and wire fraud). Then there arose the notion that any action that was particularly disfavored must be made a federal crime in order that the congress could be seen to be suitably outraged (violence against women and God knows what all else).

[Frau Schiessgewehr]

henry -

[Captain Hate]

Yeah Rob; I'm wondering how they're gonna square that circle. The Nags may finally wake up and realize how they've all been Kopechned for a bunch of fat white predaturds like Teddy and Slick. Asking a lot, I realize...

[henry]

Frau, which round does that mop chamber? A 12 gauge might be useful.

[chemman]

RC,

Wow exactly. I've dealt with women whose husbands were threatening to kill them and were quite capable of carrying through. Usually had to send them to shelters out of the county.

[narciso]

Besides '1984' they seem to follow the burg of San Angeles from 'Demolition Man' as the model for how citizens should behave 'in a firm tone of voice, tell the maniac to stop'

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

The sanity and critical reasoning of Thomas Sowell on Gun Control Ignorance.

[Captain Hate]

Tammy Bruce just said that the JEF's horrible grief porn speech is now being packaged for fundraising purposes. Fundraising for what? Is there any depths to which these grifters won't descend?

[Manuel Transmission]

Maybe I missed it in the barrage of new postings (does TM have high capacity blog clips?), but has ANYONE seen a believable, factual summary of what actually happened in Newtown wrt to specific gun(s) ACTUALLY used in the massacre?

[narciso]

You were being rhetorical, right Captain, when it's more important to go to Beyonce and JayZee's shindig, then see how your entire North African policy, blew up in your face, well that is the measure of the man,

No, MT, we'll have to wait for the wiki, so far the Glocks were used, the Bushmaster might have been, but no confirmation,

[LouP]

Wouldn't it be just as effective - from a prog point of view - to pass a law outlawing mental disturbance? Who could be against that? It's got the feel good element, too.

Does anyone have a theory as to why NYC seems to be the epicenter of the illogical gun control fear and panic?

[bgates]

HB, a bit of Googling using the words connecticut protective order gun failed to confirm your claim about both parties needing to surrender their weapons. Do you have a cite for that?

[Captain Hate]

I'm with narc, MT. Most non-sbw journalists consider anything more powerful than a starter pistol to be an "assault weapon" so they could have the facts in front of them and their filter would prevent it from being communicated.

[LouP]

Make that ...why NYC seems to be the epicenter of the gun fear and panic... Or said another way, why NYC is the epicenter of the gun control movement?

[narciso]

Punctuation is important, (I know the irony,) start here;

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=265&state_code=CT&open_id=9225#content-9228

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

LouP,

Because it is the epicenter of the Eastern Elitist Establishment, the New York Times and Nannie Bloomberg.

[narciso]

Obama's proposal was more ambitious, actually

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/06/obamas_proposal.php

[Manuel Transmission]

CH Most non-sbw journalists consider anything more powerful than a starter pistol to be an "assault weapon"

In the flying world, any news story involving private aircraft ends up being filtered into either a Piper Cub or a Learjet.

[narciso]

Btw, it looks like they found one of the leaker;

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/12/17/177676/bin-laden-leak-is-referred-to.html

[Captain Hate]

Obama's proposal was more ambitious, actually

Somebody should shove that back at the JEF and ask him what having a gun store within five miles of the Sandy Hook school had anything to do with the shootings. No wonder he voted "Present" so much.

[LouP]

Why hasn't someone thought of this solution... Let's all get behind a new law making it unlawful to shoot a person.

If you want you can narrow it down to precluding weapons with more than, say, 2 rounds, restrict the size, etc.

[Rob Crawford]

Most non-sbw journalists consider anything more powerful than a starter pistol to be an "assault weapon"

I'm still looking for a .9mm pistol. I always wanted a needle gun!

[matt]

did they ever confirm which weapon did the killing in Newtown?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--One hopes that folks like Sen. Manchin actually have some clout...--

After admitting his position would do no good?
Hmmm.

[Captain Hate]

Good luck trusting Manchin; that hasn't worked out so well in the past.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Heard last night a proposal, apparently serious, that since the gun-free zone in the school failed, we should extend the gun-free zone for a one mile perimeter around every school in America. Make violating the perimeter with a gun a federal felony. No person living in or traveling through the zone would be permitted to carry or posses a weapon.--

Lopez already disposed of this at the federal level.
States probably can but it would require a reversal of Lopez to do it federally. Not likely.

[Janet]

Wouldn't it be just as effective - from a prog point of view - to pass a law outlawing mental disturbance? Who could be against that? It's got the feel good element, too.

Excellent, LouP.

and Rob's 1:30 post is interesting. Makes ya wonder...

[ed in texas]

The only reason that shotguns are prefered home defense weapons is that they fire multiple pellets at a single trigger pull.
If we're talking 12 gage standard 2 3/4" shells in '00' buckshot (refered to as "double ought"), there are 9 pellets of 30 caliber in each shell. One of these rounds fired from is the functional equivalent of nine rounds from a US Army WWII 30 carbine. It's why they're prefered. Think about that in relation to magazine limitations.

[Porchlight]

Make violating the perimeter with a gun a federal felony. No person living in or traveling through the zone would be permitted to carry or posses a weapon.

And this is going to deter a person bent on murdering a roomful of children exactly how?

[cathyf]

One detail that I have heard (but not seen confirmed in this case) is that the shooter committed suicide at the first sight of a gun (held by a cop.)

In the mall shooting, again, the shooter killed himself at the first sight of a gun (in this case a bystander with a concealed carry permit who had violated the mall's prohibition against guns.)

Seems to me that the appearance of someone other than a shooter with a gun is what ends the slaughter. So the gun control folks are looking for shooting incidents to be longer and more deadly.

[DebinNC]

I think "a person bent on murdering a roomful of children" is a member of the numerically tiny serial killer tribe, not the larger out-ot-touch-with-reality "crazies" tribe. There was nothing about Lanza's planning and execution that indicates "insanity" imo. He was evil, empty, and soulless, like Bundy and BTK, totally immune to treatment.

[narciso]

Captain mentioned this detail, which Tammy highlighted;

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/18/obama-campaign-raises-money-from-video-of-presidents-newtown-speech/#ixzz2FRYAq6D9

[pagar]

Anyone have any idea why the Obama campaign is raising money?

[boris]

"a member of the numerically tiny serial killer tribe"

My guess is he was inflicting suffering and pain on the community rather than taking pleasure in the killing.

[pagar]

More Holder Fast and Furious missteps:

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/12/18/cbs-news-fast-and-furious-gun-found-at-site-where-mexican-beauty-queen-killed/

[matt]

shotguns are good area weapons in that they cut a wide swathe even in an untrained user's hands.

I hate trying to hit them tiny lil "birds" going 100mph 30 yards out when shooting sporting clays.

[jimmyk]

In the flying world, any news story involving private aircraft ends up being filtered into either a Piper Cub or a Learjet.

Pick almost any topic covered by journalists, and find someone who actually knows a lot about that topic. He or she will be able to show that the journalists get fundamental aspects of the topic absolutely wrong.

[DrJ]

Pick almost any topic covered by journalists, and find someone who actually knows a lot about that topic.

Attend a trial some time, and compare what you see and hear to what is reported. You won't believe that they are the same event.

[Danube of Thought on IPad]

I said it on another thread, and I'll say it here: in 2013 there will be no legislation that significantly reduces the ability of a madman to commit mass murder with firearms.

In fact, I'll go further: there is no legislation that could have that effect. If you disagree, describe the legislation and the means of enforcing it.

[Clarice]

I'm afraid I've forgotten..is AB on the Big Island? I'll be flying thee on Sat for about a week. If you're there ,AB, and have a break in the festivities, we can try to get together I'll be at the Treadwell House Wailea Bay.

[Porchlight]

In fact, I'll go further: there is no legislation that could have that effect.

Agree with DoT. The illegality of certain weapons or actions won't stop those who want to use those weapons or take those actions, by definition. That was my point above. No one who wants to murder children will be deterred by a gun-free zone in and around a school. Obviously.

I believe that certain gun control advocates think that bans would reduce supply, but it's silly and naive to think that supply would be reduced enough to have an effect. I have no idea what effect they think an expanded gun-free zone will have.

[Cecil Turner]

If you disagree, describe the legislation and the means of enforcing it.

How about a law that authorizes anyone with a concealed carry permit to carry in "gun free zones"?