One For The History Buffs - War And Peace And Shampoo

What really defeated Napoleon during his invasion of Russia? Lice borne disease, which is not nearly as glorious as epic cavalry charges or thundering cannons.

Left unanswered - why wasn't this an equally grave problem for the Russians?

ERRATA: Clearly we need the famous Minard graphic, and a bit of commentary:

This was a battle of logistics as well as of tactics; the French Army lost more men to starvation, desertion, typhus, and suicide than to combat. The Army advanced faster than supply trains could manage, and there was no forage available.

Suicide? Seems redundant with all the other opportunities for an early exit.

Comments

[NK]

TomM-- you read the NYT AND Slate? Can also fill us in on what's going on at MSNBC and NPR programming. Jeez, you musty be some kind of media masochist.

[Danube of Thought]

Well, there was also a bit of a cold snap.

[matt]

What a load of crap. Napoleon was defeated by the Russian Winter as any serious history points out. Escaping with perhaps 20,000 men of an army of 500,000, there were only a few major actions such as Borodino. Moscow's burning was almost anticlimactic.

[Sue]

Is anyone else feeling kind of itchy right now?

[Mark Folkestad]

Sue, funny that you should mention that....

[NK]

Sue@1230-- heh

[mojo]

"Cold snap" is putting it mildly. Men and horses flash-frozen in some cases, like statues.

[NK]

Early 19th century European mini-ice age was coolish in winters, that's for sure. The Thames froze routinely, and the Dutch started their canal skating.

[Janet]

I believe Napoleon lost because he didn't have enough ribbon.

"Men fight for glory. Give me enough ribbon & I can conquer the world." ~ Napoleon
posted by Ranger

"- Apparently Napoleon didn't have enough ribbon."
posted by Danube of Thought

[fdcol63]

" ... why wasn't this an equally grave problem for the Russians? ..."

Vodka. Or borscht-induced farts. Kept the lice away. LOL

[NK]

PS: TomM-- I too like your rhetorical question to Slate about Russian immunity from lice...hmm... it's Slate, they're rollin', don't introduce facts or logic to their story.

[I R A Darth Aggie]

They were Russian lice.

[Manuel Transmission]

NK, Early 19th century European mini-ice age was coolish in winters, that's for sure. The Thames froze routinely, and the Dutch started their canal skating.

Given that Kim hasn't dropped by in a while, ya'll should know that we may still be heading for a repeat of that. Cycle 24 is still weak and looking like it still may die with a whimper.

BTW, my gramps skated down the west coast of Norway in the late 19th century.

[jimmyk]

While winter was more likely the culprit in this case, disease has played a bigger role in wars (prior to WW II anyway) than a lot of people realize. McNeill's "Plagues and Peoples" goes into that. A great book for those interested.

Happy Birthday, Ignatz! Even though it's already Dec. 13th where I am.

[Jane: Mock the Media]

Where are you Jimmy? Oz?

[Jim Eagle]

Just think what the world would look like now had there been a North Face outlet store in Moscow?

BTW, the severe winter and its effects only occurred during Napolean's retreat. The 22,000 figure is more legend than fact. I read a history of this campaign in which the figure of 380K French killed was noted.

[jimmyk]

Yep, Sydney. Beautiful here, even if Wednesday is already over. Seeing all the Christmas decorations with the sun straight overhead is a bit disconcerting. On the flight over I tried to keep an eye out for some potential JOM islands, but it was a bit cloudy. Still, we could do worse than just relocating to Oz.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Should be an E) All Of The Above choice on this exam....

[Mark Folkestad]

http://juneau.craigslist.org/reb/3471617921.html This is the property I mentioned in the old thread. Take a look at the photos. Very nice buildings, all twelve years old or newer. And just try to click past the setting sun over the islands and ocean photo. If I didn't have the friends down on the middle of the west coast of Prince of Wales Island, I'd consider this place. It might be a solution for someone. And no property tax!

[NK]

MelR-- here's a link to a BloombergNews talking head guest talking about WTI/Brent pricing (God BloombergNews TV 'interviewers' are as bad as the BBC and MSNBC) http://www.bloomberg.com/video/microsoft-boosting-production-of-surface-tablet-obyGt2_kQx~0_F6~yq8Tqw.html

[Manuel Transmission]

I read a history of this campaign in which the figure of 380K French killed was noted.

Think about the long term implications for the Frogs from that loss. Is their current metrosexual preference a result of the alpha males being wiped out? (Or were those lost just beta cannon fodder?)

[NK]

MT-- if 1812 didn't do it, the 1.5Million Frenchman dying in the trenches in WWI ended the Gaulist fighting gene.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--MT-- if 1812 didn't do it, the 1.5Million Frenchman dying in the trenches in WWI ended the Gaulist fighting gene.

Posted by: NK | December 12, 2012 at 02:29 PM--

Seems to me all those bullets in the back would have ended the Frog retreat gene by now.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Left unanswered - why wasn't this an equally grave problem for the Russians?

professional courtesy.

[NK]

Ig-- I hate to admit it, but facts are facts. The french Infantryman in WWI was courageous and determined fighting on home soil against Le Boche. But the french had dreadful generals who just led their men to useless slaughter. Even in 1940, the French fought a magnificent rear guard action to slow down the Vehrmacht Blitz and allow the Brits (BEF) to escape to the Dunkirk beaches. If the French didn't sacrifice themselves in April-May 1940, there may not have been a British Army in England to confront Operation Sea Lion, and WWII may have ended very differently.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

(Or were those lost just beta cannon fodder?)

Beta than what?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Ig-- I hate to admit it, but facts are facts.--

Yes, but this is the internet where facts seldom are allowed to interfere with or even influence reality.

[cathyf]

Often described by information designers as “the best information graphic ever made”, Charles Minard's map of Napoleon's march to Moscow, created in 1861, set a defining standard for the representation of statistic information, and has been a favourite among usability experts ever since.

[NK]

This is internet unreality? Does that mean here I look like Brad Pitt, have Cary Grant's charm and Buffet's (either Warren's or Jimmy's) bank account?

[Ralph L]

I read somewhere that a large part of Napoleon's army in Russia was non-French. Can't remember if they were conscripts or volunteers.

[Jim Miller]

Ralph L - That half of Napoleon's army mostly came from Napoleon's defeated foes, Austria and Prussia.

[Jim Miller]

Some French units, for example, the Deuxième DB, fought superbly in WW II. And their commander, Leclerc, was a remarkable man in almost every way.

(There's a good sketch of his achievements in Keegan's "Six Armies in Normandy".)

[NK]

Jim Miller- never read that particular Keegan book, thanks for the heads up.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Does that mean here I look like Brad Pitt, have Cary Grant's charm and Buffet's (either Warren's or Jimmy's) bank account?

Posted by: NK | December 12, 2012 at 04:24 PM--

You're asking the internet's sexiest man alive?

[narciso]

Btw, Happy birthday, Ignatz,

[Climate Change, love it or leave it.]

BHB, BF(Iggy). Kutosov & the Buono's Ego.
==============