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December 16, 2012


Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--That means a lot of people feel safe, or at least "safe enough", with a lot less than thirty.--

Thirty 9mm rounds are not equivalent to thirty 12 gauge rounds.
There is a reason the Pentagon stockpiles millions of small arms rounds, rather fewer howitzer shells and fewer still nuclear warheads.


They need to proofread that piece, they confused Vance and the shooter, Lanza,


then again, having a system where someone who poses a danger to himself and others could result in his being placed into a situation where he is not a danger to himself and others works pretty well too.

It's not as much fun as banning ammo, gun accessories, and certain types of firearms .. but it's a hell of a lot more effective.

Buford Gooch

Had this discussion with a Facebook friend earlier. She couldn't understand why we needed "assault weapons" or why they needed large clips. The term "assault weapon" is used to confuse the public. Most think it is equivalent to "automatic fire" weapon, where one pull on the trigger causes many shots to be fired. As to the high capacity clips, look into how many shots miss when fired by police at an armed perp. They are required to qualify regularly with their side arms. Joe Schmoe out here may not fire more than once a year or so. If your home is invaded by armed thugs (hey, it happens; read the newspapers), a 30 shot clip is much more likely to keep you alive than a ten round clip.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--They need to proofread that piece...--

Why start now?


Point taken, the rhetorical question 'who edits the Times' comes to mind.


Now my understanding is this scene is based on an actual event;



Why do the police get to put 30 bulleits in a suspect ,but I can't do the same if protecting my children? if I were defending my children I would want the guy real dead.Otherwise he might comeback after his release from prison and try and hurt us again.


My understanding was that the .223 was found in the trunk of his car, and all the school shootings were with the handguns. Has the story changed (no surprise if so)?


Yes, not surprisingly, this story doesn't make sense, he had extra clips, yet he shot himself when the police appeared.


Here's that clzckamas story;



I think he's hedging his bet;


Recaricature all weapon ownership as defensive.  I can live with that.

Easy peasy, let the meaning of 'Assault Weapon' become 'Defense Against Assault Weapon'. There it is.


And we traipse down memory later.


Dusting off quarter of a millenium old library shelves.

Extraneous has extremely pertinent quotes @ the end of the last thread which deserve exposure again on this thread.


Pleased as I am to see Dusting off and Recaricature, the cuteness of constant changing of the Posted By makes it hard for me to recognize a single commenter with consistency.


Yes, not surprisingly, this story doesn't make sense, he had extra clips, yet he shot himself when the police appeared.

The magazine capacity angle is just a nose in the tent for the gun grabbers.

It's pretty easy to change clips. Anyone with a tiny bit of practice could carry ten 10-shot clips and change them out quickly enough to fire 100 rounds in a minute or two.

What's common to all of these mass shootings is not the magazine capacity. It's the lack of any armed defenders.

If anyone at that school had been armed, kids could have been saved. Not all of them, but probably some.

We hire police to defend us. Schools could hire armed security guards - and if they did, wackos wouldn't feel so safe about attacking innocent children.

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

Thomas Paine


then again, having systems in place such that a person who's likely to be a danger to himself or others is placed - potentially against their will - in a place away from, say, kindergarten classes, shopping malls, large capacity magazines, and assault weapons.

Sure it'd lead to Bedlam.

Actual, physical Bedlam.

But I'm totally okay with that.

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."

Thomas Jefferson

"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Cecil Turner

My understanding was that the .223 was found in the trunk of his car . . .

That was in some of the earlier reporting, but I found it dubious. The body count strongly suggests the rifle was the main weapon, and this version makes much more sense.


Revolvers would be less deadly than their high-capacity magazine counterparts.



Lost my temper a little bit in today's Deathless Dialog with one of the professional firebrands over at NRO's Corner. My rant is here:



I don't know whether every school having an armed security guard is the right answer, but that certainly ought to be up to the individual school or district. I would think a security system that prevents unauthorized entry might be adequate in most cases. So the story that Lanza was able to get in by breaking a window is puzzling. What kind of security system would allow that without setting off alarms and lockdowns immediately? Anything that would have delayed or impeded his access to classrooms could have saved these kids.


I think we're all agreed that gun control is going to be less effective than nut control. My ideas for the latter:

Determine the age by which (95-99)% of (schizophrenia/other mental illnesses that lead to mass shootings) manifest. Relatives, teachers, law enforcement, certain health care workers may petition for the involuntary institutionalization of a person under that age. Decisions on confinement to be made by a judge with the advice of court psychiatrists. To address libertarian fears (now better grounded than ever) of the system getting Sovietized, a confinement order can be vetoed by (1? 3? 5?) of the persons who could have recommended confinement in the first place (relatives, teachers, etc).

To prevent sabotage of the system by inveterate vetoers, anyone who vetoes the confinement of someone who later commits a violent crime (within some timespan) shall be charged as an accessory to that crime.


Remember the debate after 9/11 about whether airline pilots should be armed? Talk about a no-brainer. A pilot could purposely crash the plane, killing all aboard, but leftist gun-grabbers - as if worried that a deranged pilot might use a gun to kill the passengers instead - argued against pilots being able to defend the passengers.


You need to add "Moderate" to your handle again, Appalled. I am unpersuaded. Apparently the immoderate nature of the Democrat agenda troubles you not a whit.

I'll have to be more careful.

Dang, sbw, foiled again.


To prevent sabotage of the system by inveterate vetoers, anyone who vetoes the confinement of someone who later commits a violent crime (within some timespan) shall be charged as an accessory to that crime.

And something similar could be adopted for parole boards: Anyone who supports parole for a criminal who later commits a violent crime (within some timespan) shall be charged as an accessory.


Cop in a classroom:


Time to look into homeschool.


Sorry bgates, the RNC/DNC consent decree would not allow your plan to happen.

How can I endure the agony of twelve steps when I quail at one?

Besides, sbw, I know I have a problem; I'm helpless to correct it.


Shouldn't militia members have large-capacity magazines? Either the right of the people to keep and bear arms means that they have the right to keep and bear arms sufficient to defend themselves and their "free states" from armed invading forces, or the right to bear whatever arms they want, or it doesn't mean much of anything. It is a stretch to interpret the Second Amendment as meaning only the right to bear inefficient, obsolete or antique arms, arms useful only for hunting animals, or for purposes of collecting, to slow down the bad guys until the police get there, or to bear enough arms to feel safe in the home.
If we're going to repeal the Second Amendment, lets have that discussion. Lets not pretend that it doesn't mean what it says.


I was reminded of this piece on the previous thread, another damage assessment like that carried out by R.E. Pound which was not disseminated publically,


Danube of Thought on IPad

Clarice from the previous thread:

"I don't recall a single hotly contested issue where in a matter of a couple of years the SCOTUS reversed itself. Does anyone?"

I don't. I think the Court has only explicitly overruled a previous decision anout 22 times since the founding.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Pleased as I am to see Dusting off and Recaricature, the cuteness of constant changing of the Posted By makes it hard for me to recognize a single commenter with consistency.--

Surely the
is a bit of a giveaway, unless you were just being facetious.


A militia consists of citizens pressed into service. They bring with them a skill with arms acquired from private practice.

Accordingly, I am comfortable that Ezra Klein’s interpretation of a living constitution that would allow the flexibility for individuals to keep and bear arms.

How's that for a liberal interpretation of the Constitution.


Danube of Thought on IPad

"Sorry bgates, the RNC/DNC consent decree would not allow your plan to happen."

Is that meant to be serious?


Well the way the Courts have interprested that decree, proffering moot decisions as precdent, pretty much:


I know you are just as surprised;



An M1 rifle carried in WW II holds 8 rounds of .308 caliber in a clip. Very deadly indeed in the right hands, but a large and somewhat cumbersome weapon.

An AR-15 equivalent, which seems to be what was in the trunk of the shooters car, can hold as many as 30 rounds; 45 for some rare magazines.

Outside of California and perhaps a few other states where the limit on all magazines is 10 rounds, the typical 9mm-.40cal -.45cal pistol magazine holds from 7-14 rounds. A shooter can carry as many magazines as they can, if they want to.

Most police officers carry one in the pistol and two extras.

A standard hunting shotgun is allowed 2-3 rounds to give the birds a fair chance. A home defense shotgun usually can hold 5-7 rounds.

Last night here in California the shooter loosed off approximately 50 rounds, not hitting anyone, in a couple of minutes. A lot of good the 10 round per magazine law did.

A determined shooter can do pretty well what they please. The black gun phenomenon is partially the "gee whiz I can shoot what the pros shoot" and partially that they are very effective firearms. A shooter can carry as many magazines, whether 10 or 30 round, as they can carry. Thus such a regulation is null, really.

Guns are tools for many people. .22's for small game and practice. .223's and all sorts of other small calibers for varmints. Larger calibers such as .260-.280-.308 and a plethora of others for big game. Pistols for personal defense.

In Idaho or Oklahoma or Wyoming or Texas guns are very common. In New York and Massachusetts and CT they are not. In Pennsylvania, deer hunting is the second religion for a lot of people.

The politicians are going to try and do something, but they are barking up the wrong tree. It is the lunatics they let loose that are the problem.


No, DoT, It was a joke. I suck at that too.

I would like to extend an olive branch and back away from my nastiness that I have expressed towards you and others, if I may.

You are a hell of a guy and meeting you in person proved that. I had to clear my head these past couple days.

Sorry for my harshness.

I may still whine though.


The most comprehensive review I've seen;



If this is any indication;


Thomas Collins

It only took SCOTUS nine years to overrule a prior SCOTUS decision that the Commerce Clause didn't authorize the Federales to impose minimum wage and overtime requirements on state and local governments exercising essential governmental functions. See LUN.

Jane - Mock the Media!

To prevent sabotage of the system by inveterate vetoers, anyone who vetoes the confinement of someone who later commits a violent crime (within some timespan) shall be charged as an accessory to that crime.

And something similar could be adopted for parole boards: Anyone who supports parole for a criminal who later commits a violent crime (within some timespan) shall be charged as an accessory.

Both bad ideas IMO.

In the first case you are asking people driven by emotion to make a rational decision. In the second one you are asking someone hired to be rational to be a little less so to save their own hide.


So they were more sensible, nine years before, and were able to get Marshall on board?


Newtown Memorial service begins

Agent J

We have lots of military personal that could fill the "guard" duty requirements at schools.

What a recruiting tool that could be.

I received my new toy that I ordered for me for Christmas, for the last 20 years.

A Taurus 4519 6.5" SS..for the non weapons person..it is a .45/.410 6.5 inch barrel made of Stainless Steel. It uses an shoots .410 shotgun shells..or .45's It is the "Judge".

I may never use it for anything..but I sure enjoy holding it..Someone in the family will get it in the Will.

An interesting side note on my life. While standing in line at the local grocery store yesterday, a young couple with a 6 year old boy, an a 2-2.5 year old girl were checking out..The women looked like she would have the next child within days, an I asked..Next March..(she will never make it, or it will be a pony.) Husband was very nice to wife an kids, well balanced..I scanned the grocery cart, No junk food, all basic commodity's. Why not..as they got close to the end I leaned forward an told the young clerk that I was buying their order..This was something that I always have wanted to do..She gave me three hugs, a friend wanted to know if she was crying, I did not see it if she did. The husband was shocked, said meekly, I can get that..I replayed, so can I, an Merry Christmas..then the little boy came back over an said, Thank you Sir. I ask about his school etc..

You know that I felt so good I am going to do that again, "soon".

Agent J

that should be 4510, not 4519

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Wonderful story, Agent J.
Maybe the 2 year old girl is wishing for a pony. :)

Rick Ballard


Let's start smaller.
Anyone posting or declaring a "gun free zone" shall assume full liability for damages arising from the use of a gun within the designated zone.

Second -

Anyone responding to violence occurring within an "Armed Response Zone" is relieved from liability for damage arising from the use of a firearm to quell said violence.

There would have to be a proviso concerning a definition of "use" referring to reasonable prudence.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Nice post at 7:23, TK.
Life is way too short to get wound up over any of this crap.


Agent J, I like both the story and the toy. I may try out both some day.


Wonderful story, Agent J.


So happy to see kim posting again. I worry so when she doesn't for a time.


For kim I should has done "s/he" 'cause I don't know the gender...

Thomas Collins

See LUN for notes on the pretzel dances SCOTUS undertook from the 1960s through the 1980s on Federalism issues. Note that Justice Roberts used the "Feds can't commandeer the States" principle in the course of his croaking the requirement that States expand Medicaid coverage in the SCOTUS ObamaCare opinion.

My point is that a divided SCOTUS may well go back and forth over a short period of time on contentious issues. I hope Obama doesn't get a chance to replace Roberts, Alito, Kennedy, Thomas or Scalia.

Ruth H

This explains to me how the teacher who was killed protecting her students in closet was killed and they were not. I do not know anything about guns and bullets but I wondered why it did not pass through her and hit others.


Oh Agent J I loved that story.

I had never heard of the Judge but a Fla neighbor told me about it last year. He was darn pleased with having it too. He wanted to tell my eldest about it from all the years he knew him through the beach service.

See. You brought forth multiple good memories all over.


It's a deal, TK. I have a mercifully short memory for stuff like that any how.

Usually to my recollection when the SCOTUS has overruled a prior decision it has taken a long, long time and the decision proved so unworkable that it was honored only in the sense that high gymnastic skills had been employed to pretend it was being followed.

Danube of Thought on IPad

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for, TK. It gets pretty free-wheeling around here.

I haven't taken part in the consent decree discussion--and haven't read the decree--so I couldn't be sure whether you were joking or not.

Jane - Mock the Media!

Agent J,

In a horrible weekend you just brought some life into the room.

Thank you.


A couple of years ago, in the hope of persuading then Senator Specter he was wrong, I wrote two articles for PJM on stare decisis discussing those cases where the present court had not followed prior precedent If anyone's interested you can get them to see what I'm talking about

Captain Hate

O/T I had an extremely strange experience tonight. I went to a Christmas party and was chatting with a lovely couple whom I met for the first time about what my Hatettes and Hater-tot have been up to, including showing them pictures. They in turn, when I talked about how Hatette the younger had been cooking for a bunch of football players from Hiram College, mentioned that their younger son played football for Kirtland High School so they were very aware of the enhanced caloric intake. They then mentioned that earlier this year their older son had "gone to heaven by his own actions". I was stunned by that and said "did I hear you correctly?" to which they unflinchingly replied that I had. They then went on to discuss, at significant length, what a wonderful person he'd been and how they still hear from people indicating how he'd helped them out at one time or another.

Their grace in how they handled this was incredible. At times the husband's voice would catch a bit when he'd say something but their faith has obviously been of great comfort to them throughout something that would tax the essence of the best of us. They both looked me right in the eye in describing what a gift their son had been to both of them. In a situation of great emotional content I always worry about committing an inadvertent faux-pas or saying something awkwardly inappropriate. That must not have been the case because both of them, particularly the wife, were very warm as they took their leave to go to another party; as if talking about it to a previous stranger was somehow good for them. As unusual as the situation was (and as irritating as I find the JEF sounding like an idiot now in the background at a memorial service), I found them to be incredibly inspirational.


I think he was following Scottish law at the time,

Now really is that your final answer;


Dave (in MA)
as irritating as I find the JEF sounding like an idiot now
The idiot who's preempting Sunday night football?
Captain Hate

I need to go and listen to music and get away from Ear Leader.


For somebody who reportedly wasn't going to politicize this, this is amazingly--and inappropriately--political.
Incredibly insensitive to the grieving families.

Jane - Mock the Media!

I've watched nary a minute of news this weekend and certainly will not start with the president's speech.

Captain Hate

Mercifully the local PBS station isn't interrupting their Beg-a-thon for the JEF.

This was shabbas.

That's OK, g; I worry, too.



We are judged as a nation by how we protect our children. Can we honestly say we are doing enough to protect our children?

The answer is no. Since I've been President this is the 4th time we have consoled the families of victims. In between there have been reports of victims across America, who's only fault has been in being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

We cannot tolerate these things anymore. We must change.

We will be told told that no single Law we could enact will solve this problem, but we have to do something.

If there is even 1 step we can take that will save even 1 child's life we must take it.

What else can we do? We must do something regardless of politics.

Start with a simple question. Why are we here? We know our time on this earth is fleeting. We will in some fashion fall short of our hopes. We will make mistakes and even when we are trying to do the right thing we will be groping thru the darkness trying to discern God's heavenly plan. The only thing we can be sure of is the fierce and boundless love we have for our children---thats what matters. We know we are always doing right when we are teaching them. We know we don't go wrong when we are teaching and protecting them. That we know.

"Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them." and the next line about the Kingdom of heaven (Scripture). Reads the names of the dead children. God is home with them.

The rest of us have to carry on. May god bless the rest of us left here. may God Bless this holy community and the Uioted States of America.


Jane - Mock the Media!

DOn't go to twitter as they are repeating nearly ever word. If I wanted to know what he was saying I would watch the campaign speech.


The above is not 100 % verbatim but is quite close. I was playing stenographer as he spoke.

Stand by for Anti-Gun Legislation---not because as the President himself admits it won't work, but because we must do something.


CH, meeting people like that is a blessing. I once knew a couple whose son had been shot by a young robber. They went to the trial, introduced themselves to his parents, realized their pain was also substantial. After that they began praying for the murderer and visiting him in jail. He repented of what he'd done and their generous spirit saved them all from endless bitterness .

Agent J, a blessing on your head.


Charles Krauthammer
"That was a highly political speech."
"He was announcing something will be coming from him, and from
him personally."

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--as if talking about it to a previous stranger was somehow good for them--

It is.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--If there is even 1 step we can take that will save even 1 child's life we must take it.--

I know, I know! We could let Illinois doctors save the life of an aborted child born alive.


I'm in limbo, again

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

God bless you, Agent J. You have personified the Spirit of Christmas and are an inspiration to all of us.


Now, they're going after guns....
Can you imagine my horror, since the media have put forth the Ct. shooter had Asperger's/Autism; without proof of medical diagnosis--what circumstances innocent childen/adults truly on the spectrum will now suffer?

Most public educators isolate and buttonhole these students--whether brain damaged, disturbed or Autistic. You have to fight a handbook mindset to achieve success in all public schools, but now--will the progress made in recognizing students all learn differently-- be constricted because a few ignorant pundits/observers place psychotic disorders onto Autism?

I had to fight the school for months, when a child who was "damaged", was recognized as a danger.
finally, they removed the student after the parents confessed to lying about his severe brain damage and behavior problems because they wanted him to attend regular school.
They loved their child, but were putting all students in danger. And the teacher covered it up. How absurd was that leadership? But, it happens.The teacher is gone, but was she the only one who knew?

I'm sure some horror story about one person-a parent, educator, physician...dropped the ball, and innocents' suffered will be revealed, someday.

I am praying all children are protected from the"blame something or someone else" society that infects our schools, organizations and government and the ambulance chasing media.


BBC "THis was a highly Political speech." The announcer is now replaying the part of Obama's speech which the BBC says is political and is directly calling for Gun Control. The girl reporter at the scene says she is quite surprised as well that the President went head on to take on this topic politically.

Overall point will be that everyone, including Dr K above, will notice this was a political speech. The Crisis will not go to waste. "Gun Control will be a signature issue of his second term." sez the BBC.

As for my own view on Obama's speech? The same as always. Perhaps it is me, but he does not emotionally touch me in the slightest when he speaks. I do not and I have not detected the slightest bit of genuine empathy or sympathy in anything he has ever said. Others obviously do, but to me he comes across as simply a cold, unfeeling manipulator.

Rick Ballard

It's just a shame Agent Terry and Ambassador Stevens aren't available to provide a full endorsement for whatever plans the President has in mind regarding protecting people.

Agent J

I must admit that I had flashbacks of when we had a much larger family then I had a paycheck, an Christmas time was always stressful on me as the only financial provider, an CFO..Many of times I had wished that someone would just step in an surprise me. I hope an pray that the young couple enjoy their good fortunes..

Thanks you all for acknowledging my posting. When I do it again, I will report it..It was an uplifting experience..

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

I am not sure El Jefe has come to grips with the fact that more Americans have been murdered in Chicago and Detroit this year than were killed in Afghanistan. Restrictive gun control measure sure do work, don't they?

Danube of Thought on IPad

Having been forewarned, I switched immediately to CNBC and followed the game without interruption. I still have not heard that man's voice since November 6.

Captain Hate

Kudos Agent J; you exemplify the good to which all should aspire.

Rick Ballard


Bless you, you've given me inspiration to try out a fine idea.


I think the something we must do is back away from making a change in values and adjusting the personality the point of the "all can learn" classroom. That is not news to him. It goes back to what he was pushing at CAC under those Standards for Teaching and Learning.

The govt needs to disarm the citizens because it is using its monopoly over what goes on in the classroom to psychologize children on the basis of an ed degree and threaten jobs if you do not go along.

I cannot believe (well actually I can) that they are pushing this at this time. While Newtown is putting teddy bears on memorial Christmas trees.

He is using these childrens deaths to try to limit anyone's ability to dissent from any of the Transformation.

It's Benghazi all over again. Him. Him. Him. His Agenda.


Al Jazeera just did a very fair story on Obama's comments and intelligently asked a sensible American Gun commenter "What can be done if anything can be done?"

Very sensible comments by the guest concerning the mental problems of all these recent gunmen responsible for the incidents Obama cited in his speech, with a firm statement that personal gun ownership protects the individual in our society when he cannot count on the State to effectively provide that protection.

Then Al Jazeera did a very fair discussion of French Star Gerrard Depardieu, making a bold statement that over his last 40 years he has given something like 145 million Euro's in taxes to the State and now he is leaving for Belgium because the new leader has decided that Depardieu must be punished for his talent and his success with even more taxation. Al Jazeera and the commenters appear to approve of Depardieu's actions and comments, and Depardieu in translation sounds to me exactly like a member of the Boston Tea Party of 1773.

Strange to say this, but excellent job Al Jazeera.


Agent J, thank you, you have made JOM a little brighter tonight.
"If there is even 1 step we can take that will save even 1 child's life we must take it."

From the leader of a group of Americans who have killed 50 million children since 1973.


Agent J, that is so beautiful!

Dave (in MA)

DoT@9:26, if only I'd known about that.

Melinda Romanoff


Truly a gift. You and we know who would have approved of the sudden expense, and with it, whom you honored. I am humbled.


What will happen ,when the govt comes to take away Americans guns??

Ask George Washington.

Melinda Romanoff

And with that, I retreat to the Hallmark channel for some Good News. Don't care what flavor.


So many questions!!

Well maybe if Obama stopped smoking??
Or if Obama stopped flying the PLANET KILLER Air Force One to fund raisers??


Obama is a clown. He stood against the rights of LIVING BABIES to be rendered aid, after their MOTHERS tried unsuccessfully to kill them.

Obama can kiss my ass.

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