Before Cashing Out My Coins

Matt Yglesias is a one-man wrecking crew in an epic battle against reality. His launch point was the Trillion Dollar coin concept, and he delivers not one but two missiles of misinformation today.

His first launch:

The Platinum Coin Was Intended To Generate Seigniorage

No, not really at all. What is "seigniorage"? It is the added value that attaches to a bit of metal (or paper) when the government deems it to be legal tender. For example, a few cents worth of copper and bronze are stamped and boom - we have a quarter worth $0.25.

But platinum is part of the US bullion coin program, along with silver, gold and palladium. Using gold as an example, the Mint takes an ounce of gold worth maybe $1,600, stamps it with a face amount of $50 and boom - sells it for $50, thereby losing $1,550. NO!

They sell it for $1,600 plus a mark-up for production, marketing and administration. But that magic stamp of $50 isn't why they can sell the coin for more than $1,600 - it's the gold!

With the bullion coin program the Mint makes money by banging out their precious metal coins more cheaply than the Canadians can deliver their Maple Leafs, the Australians their Koalas, the Chinese their Pandas, and so on. How does General Motors make money? Seigniorage or great products? Yeah, this is America!

The US does make seigniorage on its circulating coins (the stuff in your pockets). Let's cut to the Mint's annual report:

The United States Mint (Mint) operates two fiscally separate programs: a circulating program and a numismatic program that includes both collectible coin products and precious metal bullion coins. The Mint enjoyed strong performance throughout fiscal year (FY) 2012 in both programs. Though revenue decreased in each program in FY 2012, as a result of our continued focus on costs, we generated positive seigniorage in our circulating program and positive net income in our bullion and collectible coin programs.

There is one bit of crossover - the Mint markets collectible editions of conventional circulating coins (such as proof sets of the new quarters.) Those coins don't circulate but they do produce seigniorage gains. However, that is not part of the bullion program.

So no, the platinum program was never intended to produce siegniorage profits.

And the next comic caper:

Fox News Doesn't Understand How Coins Work

What did those dumb bunnies say? Matt shows us a graphic in which Fox News explained that a Trillion Dollar Platinum coin would weigh 17,773.995 tons, equal to 89 blue whales or one nuclear sub. Har de har! Back to Matt:

Here's Fox News confusing the idea of a coin-shaped pile of platinum worth $1 trillion and a $1 trillion coin that happens to be made out of platinum and can be of any size. We saw earlier this week that the National Republican Campaign Committee also doesn't understand how coins work, so perhaps I can try again to explain.

You know what? Let me try to explain. The law we are looking at says that "(k) The Secretary may mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins..."

And what is a "bullion coin" you might ask, although Matt has not? Let's go to the Mint for a definition (my emphasis):

A bullion coin is a coin that is valued by its weight in a specific precious metal. Unlike commemorative or numismatic coins valued by limited mintage, rarity, condition and age, bullion coins are purchased by investors seeking a simple and tangible means to own and invest in the gold, silver, and platinum markets.

"Valued by its weight"? Like the way a $50 gold coin can be worth $1,600? Gee, that means a One Trillion Dollar Platinum Bullion coin would have to weigh... as much as a nuclear sub. Har de har indeed.

Hmm. Maybe the Foxies are still wrong even though they are right about bullion coins. After all, maybe the Secretary could produce a "proof platinum coin". But what is that?

The long answer is at the bottom of this earlier post. The short answer is that 'proof' coins refer to enhanced production techniques that result in great looking coins. However, as best I can tell from looking at the product offerings at the Mint or by reading the law on coins, "proof" coins always have their conventional counterpart.

[Or let me cite this handy defintion from "The Coin Site":

Proof Coins are specially made examples of regular issue coins historically used as gifts or for presentation.]

More on the history of proof coins issued in the US here. The gist - as best I can tell (but I have only paged through two books at the library and do not claim a numismatist), there are examples of conventional coins being struck without accompanying proof versions for collectors, but there are no examples of proof coins being struck for which there is no conventional circulating, commemorative or bullion counterpart. Which is consistent with the defintion provided above.]

For example, in addition to conventional circulating quarters like the ones jinggling in your pocket the Mint makes proof quarters of conventional metal for collectors (very pretty!) and Silver Proof quarters that will knock your eyes out. The Silver Proof quarters are worth about $8 each based on the silver content, but have a face value of $0.25. No seigniorage there.

Or here is an example of how "proof" is used elsewhere in the law:

(6) Quality of coins.—The bullion coins minted under this Act shall be issued in both proof and uncirculated qualities.

There are many similar examples, and please note the pairing of "proof" with a conventional counterpart (in this example, uncirculated).

The point being, under the one-sentence law governing platinum coins, the normal meaning of "proof platinum coin" would simply be the proof version of a platinum bullion coin or the proof platinum version of some circulating coin (e.g., a platinum proof dollar).

In either case, however, we are talking about a Trillion Dollar coin that can't exist - we don't have 18,000 tons of platinum for a bullion coin, proof version or no, and we don't have a circulating trillion dollar coin we can spruce up in platinum.

In principal, the phrase "proof platinum coin" has a fairly clear meaning distinct from "platinum coin"; it is also pretty clear that Matt has no idea what that meaning might be, and I am not fully pounding the table myself. But Laurence Tribe had this to say in endorsing the Trillion Dollar coin:

Using the statute this way doesn’t entail exploiting a loophole; it entails just reading the plain language that Congress used.

"Plain language"?

...

Of course, Congress probably didn’t have trillion-dollar coins in mind, but there’s no textual or other legal basis for importing this probable intention into the statute. What 535 people might have had in their collective “mind” just can’t control the meaning of a law this clear.

How clear is it? "Proof platinum coin" surely means something different from "platinum coin". "Bullion coin" certainly does. So how do the Coiners propose that we glean the meaning of that phrase? I think history, common practice, and legislative intent would be sensible places to start if we really can't agree that proof sets of coins don't exist except alongside conventional counterparts.

AND SPEAKING OF CLEAR LANGUAGE: Elsewhere in the law there are fairly specific definitions the shape of a coin as to weight, diameter and edging. Yet in the one sentence on platinum coins we are told that the Secretary has full discretion to issue coins

"...with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time."

So can the Secretary exert his discretion to authorize issuance of a six-side cube with graphics of the American landscape? I say no, because even though it is not defined here, a "coin" is not a die, and we all know it. As to what the Coiners would say, I am not so sure.

CHIPS, PLEASE... We are moving on - it is all about IOUs now. But Ann Althouse thumps Matt on the eay out the door.

Comments

[Rick Ballard]

jimmyk,

Do you believe the creation of a trillion dollar Clown Coin (bearing the likeness of BOzo I) would do more lasting damage here in the United States of Lilliput than has Mad Ben's destruction of the signaling function of the markets in which he hamhandedly interferes? I lean towards Mad Ben's Charade being more damaging. A trillion dollar BOzo has the benefit of being obviously counterfeit while the destruction by the Fed has more of the nature of mildly uncomfortable inexorably metastasizing growth.

[narciso]

It's a Venn diagram, and the circles overlap, FSP.

[MarkO]

Bloomberg is a Puritan on meth. He's the reincarnation of Increase Mather.

[cathyf]

Well you do know that when antimatter and matter collide, they turn into photons, right? So that means that light is half antimatter, so we can mint the coins out of light.

...and here we are, quite literally talking about spending the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow...

[GMax]

Let me off a hardy farewell to Jay Rockefeller who like his brother Winthrop is headed for the scrap heap. AMF.

[matt]

very good editorial piece by David Rivkin Jr. and Lee Casey on the myths of government default in the WSJ today.

They note that Congress' refusal to increase the debt limit will not cause a default as Obama claims, as the 14th Amendment specifically guarantees that our debts shall be paid.

The debts incurred by entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicaid are not part of the public debt, as they are political measures that are fully subject to the general rule that one Congress cannot, by simple legislation, prevent a future Congress from making cuts.

Last, the assertion by the Left that the President can rely on Section 4 of the 14th Amendment as a pretext for raising the debt is manifestly incorrect and is constitutionally dangerous. This Section grants no power to the president, but rather grants Congress the power.

It would seem that Obama is arguing once again that the law is what he says it is.

[GMax]

Increase Mather

Is that the younger and less creative brother of the rapper known to all as M & M ( Martin Mather )?

LOL

[Melinda Romanoff]

GMax-

I join you in your heartfelt toast to Sen. Rockefeller. (And I'm steeling that non-Mercedes Benz Branding Tag. Well coined, sir.)

[cathyf]

It seems to me that the 14th amendment merely assures that the government is only allowed to default on its debt via inflation.

[Gus]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/11/scarborough-nra-using-tragedy-to-gin-up-fears-video/

Is Scarborough an ACT or is he really this stupid?

[AliceH]

Puritans were certainly imperfect, but they simply don't deserve the degree of slander hurled their way.

via Wikipedia: Increase Mather in 1692

...published Cases of Conscience Concerning Evil Spirits Personating Men, Witchcrafts, infallible Proofs of Guilt in such as are accused with that Crime, which defended the judges and [Salem Witch] trials, but strongly denounced the spectral evidence used by them. It said, "It were better that Ten Suspected Witches should escape, than that one Innocent Person should be Condemned."

I wish Bloomberg were as fair-minded and just as Increase Mather.

[narciso]

Yes, Gus, next question.

[narciso]

Cotton was the hot headed one in the group,

[(A) nuther Bub]

You can bet that not only does the sawed off little shit have a half dozen guys with guns guarding his worthless hide at any one time but that when his number comes up he'll be sure and indulge as many painkillers and life extending technologies as money can buy.

I'm in complete agreement with your characterization of Nanny Bloomberg, Ig, but if I understand his drug message correctly, he's finally doing something I think warrants our approval. A huge, huge problem for hospital emergency departments is the number of prescription drug abusers who show up at the ER daily, trying to get a new/additional Rx for their own use or to sell it. They know all the symptoms to report, all the excuses to give, all the threats to make, to get their way. Hospital management often looks the other way because turning down these demands can bring legal and accreditation problems more harmful than giving in.

I hope I'm not naive in thinking that true sufferers won't be denied, but only those who've made a career out of drug seeking.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Whose idea was it for us to be talking about this ridiculous topic this week?

[matt]

What stuns me in all of the conversation about the reaction to the Newtown shooting to date is that there has not been one mention of the root cause, mental illness and or evil, by our leadership. This in itself is evil.

Biden is going to hand down the same claptrap the anti-gun lobby has been doing for years and the media will receive like the tablets of Moses and propagate the holy word of Lord Barack.

The best part is that Barack never actually leaves his own fingerprints on any of this. That may be his political genius summed up in a nutshell. He is regularly down in the gutter shivving his opponents, but always has henchmen to do his bidding so that he can be seen to be "above" all that. It is that dishonesty that offends me so deeply.

We have the loon in Colorado staring at the cameras rejoicing in his evil, just as the one in Tucson did. and yet no one seems to want to deal with the elephant in the living room.

[Neo]

A "bullion coin" made of plutonium would only weight 8500 tons, but by no means dare you make it a "proof coin," unless you are looking for a blinding white flash.

[rse]

Yes Janet--all very much linked as yesterday's post in the LUN makes clear. Think of ed as the means and Big Green as the excuse and Big Govt as the nomenklatura living at our expense and dispensing favors to business cronies as they all go back and forth with additional compensation with each shift.

I am going back through old posts from months ago and drawing connections to subsequent posts so I can integrate book and blog where needed.

It is very clear now to me that the performance assessment is the means for accomplishing what Paul Ehrlich sought as new minds to match new desired environment. That double loop process fits with how these formative assessments actually work.

And again it is quite easy to see the psychological impact of such deliberate manipulation via the classroom.

No wonder the Neuroscience community anticipated becoming a target of outrage after Aurora but no one in the media bothered.

2nd Amendment much more convenient as it makes it harder to prevent the coercion of imposing utopian visions like it or not.

[Soylent Red]

Gmax:

Marshall Mather. Both are equally irritating white dudes of marginal talent.

Matt:
It would seem that Obama is arguing once again that the law is what he says it is.

This has been the case on a variety of issues for basically his entire Preznit-cy. The real question is: who is going to stop him?

cathyf:
So that means that light is half antimatter, so we can mint the coins out of light.

All of this reminds me so much of the Monty Python witch trial "science" that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's conjuring money from nothing. Taste the rainbow.

The winning argument on this is to point out that the coin has less than the value we are imparting on it by fiat, thus

a. it can be worth anything we say it's worth
b. we can use it to pay off all of the nation's debts in one fell swoop
c. it can be made of a material that doesn't have the intrinsic value of the coin's denomination.

H/T whoever suggested it before, but this coin should be an enormous wooden nickel with Obama's face on it. Place it under glass and armed guard in the National Mall, for all to see. Value it at $540 trillion to pay off all debt, unfunded liability, interest, etc. looming on the horizon, because - why not? We're just making this shit up as we go anyway...

Then when the currency collapses over night, Zero will have erected an enduring monument to why it happened and who to blame. It will provide an inspiring backdrop as politicians are strung up by piano wire and beaten with shoes.

Stick that chin out a little further Il Douche...

[narciso]

You I don't really care, he told the U Colorado psychology department what he was going to do, that's premeditation, just try, and fry him and get on with it, Same with Loughner, he might have believed Giffords was from Zeta Reticuli or one of the Observers from Fringe, but there was premeditation there as well.

[narciso]

They knew full well, rse, that as long as one sounded the air raid sirens for the Eloi, too many would venture into the Bunker, it doesn't matter that the bunker won't protext us from the nuke, or the crashing moon, in that agonizing remake by one of West's distaff descendants.

[Jim Ryan]

Last summer Rush did a back-of-envelope calculation on the air, showing that hitting the debt limit doesn't entail default. The revenue is there.

I'm currently reading Bremer's biography of John Winthrop. Very well written.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--but if I understand his drug message correctly, he's finally doing something I think warrants our approval--

I think doctors and hospitals should decide how medication is dispensed, not mayors.
I think if the mayor believes people are criminally accessing drugs through Emergency Rooms he should enforce the law against those who are doing so.

This strikes me as somewhat akin to waiting periods for firearms purchases wherein those who need a gun to protect themselves from a nut have to wait while the nut goes out and steals one and shoots the law abiding citizen waiting for theirs.

[Melinda Romanoff]

It seems to me that actively serving NY mayors should have their left hand slammed in a car door every week.

I can make edicts too!

[AliceH]

Jim Ryan --I'm currently reading Bremer's biography of John Winthrop. Very well written--

By coincidence, I've been wanting to read up on the old Massachusetts Bay Colony (I have some antecedents among them), so I just bought the eBook via Amazon. Thanks for mentioning it!

[Bruce]

So that means that light is half antimatter, so we can mint the coins out of light.

I think that there is a logic problem here. Even if the energy that is created when matter and anti-matter come together is in the form of photons, that doesn't mean that photons can be used to create half anti-matter. Almost all of our universe is matter, and theory right now seems to be that most anti-matter was destroyed very quickly after the Big Bang when it interacted with regular matter. And, now, I think that almost all photons are a result of direct interaction with regular matter, and when turned back into matter, in our positive matter universe, turn into regular matter.

Now, it might be quite nice to be able to turn a much higher percentage of photons into anti-matter. Anti-matter has been a stable of science fiction for decades. But I don't see that happening any time soon. Need to ask my kid this, as they are applying right now to physics graduate programs.

[harrjf]

Simple way to create some seigniorage. Create the platinum coin, Obama on the front and a copy of his original long form BC on the back. People would pay.

[harrjf]

Henry,

Don't be so short sighted on the Milwaukee trolley. I would use it. The one time a year I go to downtown Milwaukee. If I could get on it in front of my hotel. And if it took me to the bar. And if I didn't need exact change.

We could call it MCSTM. Moving Cheeseheads Slowly Through Milwaukee. You know, similar to MARTA in Atlanta.

[Gus]

Yes, I realize that I am unique, but I'll try this one on for size any way.

What fuxing medical school did Bloomberg attend?

[Jim Ryan]

Alice, the preface, p. 1, taught me that "Model of Christian Charity" (which Time called the sermon of the millennium, fwiw) is the source of the "city on a hill" rhetoric.

[Porchlight]

I wish Bloomberg were as fair-minded and just as Increase Mather.

Ditto AliceH. I don't even mind Cotton all that much and he called my 8x grandmother (Martha Carrier) a "rampant hag." Which by all accounts she pretty much was, although I doubt she was a witch. She was convicted and executed anyway, though.

A lesser known action of Cotton Mather was his promotion of smallpox inoculation at a time when it was considered by many to be against the will of God. Its strongest opponents made secular arguments against it as well, stressing the risk that inoculated people would catch the disease. Most of Mather's fellow Puritan pastors took his side in the crusade and he eventually prevailed. Without his strong backing it might never have become legal accepted practice in Massachusetts.

Undoubtedly, through his influence, more lives were saved than were ended at the hands of the government as a result of his influence on the witch trials.

[Bruce]

Hmm. Maybe the Foxies are still wrong even though they are right about bullion coins. After all, maybe the Secretary could produce a "proof platinum coin". But what is that?

I think that the idea is to create a platinum coin, hold it as an asset, and essentially borrow against it. But, as you point out, you need an underlying circulating coin to make a proof from. So, I guess that you could maybe make a trillion dollar coin (but probably not), and then strike a proof of that coin. But, you still get down to the problem of the worth of the coin. If no one would be willing to trade a trillion dollars of something else for that trillion dollar coin, then it really isn't a circulating coin. And, what you would have then maybe is a trillion dollar coin made of something else, like steel, and one made of platinum, held somewhere secure, because they can't circulate. The problem is that they wouldn't have an actual value of a trillion dollars since no one would pay a trillion dollars for one, esp. if there is no statutory authorization for trillion dollar coins. All you would really have is a bookkeeping entry purporting to represent a trillion (or two) of assets held by the United States. But, because the coins are uncirculatable, the bookkeeping entry would be fictitious enough that if an individual attempted to do the same sort of thing, they would likely end up in prison.

[henry]

Harrjf, you'd have you pick of seats. ;)

[GMax]

Marshall it is. And Eight Mile Road is a bigger barrier today than it was when M&M put it in his tune/rap...

[Danube of Thought iPad]

I will read nothing further on the subject of the trillion-dollar coin.

[Bruce]

Let me clarify a bit. You can always legally use mint or proof coins for the value of the underlying coin. Say, you buy a proof quarter for $1. You can always use it as a quarter, but most often won't, because it is worth more as a proof ($1) than as a circulating coin ($.25). Since it can be sold on the open market for $1, it can probably be carried on the books for $1 and not for $.25.

But, here, the proposal seems to be to strike a platinum coin with a face value of a trillion dollars. How would you value that (even if it were legal)? It cannot be circulated, so would seemingly have no value as a circulated coin, and therefore, I would think that you would be left with the value that a willing buyer and willing seller would agree on. But holding it indefinitely inherently requires that there never be a willing buyer. (And, if it were sold, it would likely now be illegal). So, I think that you are back to the bullion valuation - the cost of the precious metal plus a moderate coinage addition.

[Gus]

C'mon Bruce, get with the new Obama math!!
Anything is possible, Hope and Change!!!

[NK]

Bruce you're a thorough man-- I admire that. But honestly, you're giving the topic too much credit--this whole ONE TRILLION DOLLAR COIN TO RULE THEM ALL narrative was foisted on us by TeamDem and the media teammates to -- in their view-- prep the battlefield for the debt fight. For what ever reason, they believed that putting on the clown suit would rally their base to fight the evil Repub Skinflints who won't increase the debt to infinity. Unless-- Jack Lew really plans to build a Coin the size/weight of an Arleigh Class Destroyer.

[NK]

-- Arleigh Burke Class destroyer--
Sorry DoT, I didn't want to leave that typo out there in case Arleigh Burke was your Godfather, or a close family friend....

[cathyf]

What about if we take an actual asset, how much trouble can we get into that way? For example, what if the Dept of the Interior sold Yellowstone to the Federal Reserve for $1billion, and the Fed printed up $1billion in money to buy it?

The federal government owns a HUGE amount of land in this country (something like 99% of Alaska, and more-or-less 50% of a lot of western states.) If we are talking about raising funds to fund government because we have run up against the debt limit, why can't the government start selling off some land?

[maryrose]

How much longer is Bloomie's current term.? I loved how it was absolutely shocking that Guiliani would consider a third term and Bloomberg gets it no problem. The vote was close and I personally can't wait to see the back of him.
I had a thought today about how many gun owners voted for Obama. I bet they want to snatch that vote back pronto.
Krauthammer's post today is spot on. It shows how Bammy's prediction of more flexibility to his Russian counterpart has come true. Regettably for us.
The analogy of smokers and gun owners and how to shame them is fascinating to me.Shame doesn't work today. When Obama said "cling to their guns and religion" he was signaling his distaste for both. Consequently I am puzzled by how someone knowing that would vote for him.

[cathyf]

Sorry, my posting was fairly misleading... First paragraph was asking about whether the feds could raise money by having the Fed make sham purchases of government assets with newly-printed money.

The second paragraph was a serious question as to why we shouldn't have the government sell assets -- for real -- to raise funds.

[maryrose]

cathyf:
I love the idea of selling off federal land. Of course environmentalists shudder at the thought of developing those lands. Why not allow private citizens like daddy or Sarah Palin to buy some of Alaska. Then maybe drilling could happen along with fracking and we could become oil independent.

[Clarice]

Strassel on the purported gun control consensus (WSJ):

"On the other side is the reality that any of these proposals must, in the normal course of things, pass Congress. A few quick facts about that body. 1) More than half of its members have an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association. 2) The few members today calling for gun control are the same few who have always called for gun control. 3) The House is run by Republicans.

Enlarge Image

Associated Press
Vice President Joe Biden, with Attorney General Eric Holder beside him.
Despite the press's exuberant efforts to cast congressional gun supporters as having changed their minds, there has been no actual movement. Senate Democrat Joe Manchin caused a media sensation when he declared, immediately after Sandy Hook, that nobody needed "30 rounds in a clip." Less reported was that it took the Democrat about the time necessary for your average West Virginian to drive to a ballot box to clarify that statement and to add that he's "so proud of the NRA." Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, even with the press's best efforts to parse his remarks, has committed himself to nothing more than a "thoughtful debate."

Montana's Jon Tester and Max Baucus, Alaska's Mark Begich, Arkansas's Mark Pryor, South Dakota's Tim Johnson, Louisiana's Mary Landrieu—all are quiet on that red-state Democratic front. North Dakota's brand new senator, Heidi Heitkamp, declared proposals mulled by the Biden task force as "way in the extreme" and "not gonna pass." Unlike Mr. Obama, all of these members still face elections.

Over in the House, when asked recently what was more likely—passage of gun control or Speaker John Boehner becoming a pagan—a senior GOP leadership aide told Buzzfeed: "Probably the latter."

[Gus]

There will be no TRILLION DOLLAR COIN
There will be no Gun control legislation.

Now can we get back to bankrupting the country and possibly have some more class warfare already??

[Jim Eagle]

As long as Kennedy, Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts don't do something foolish like step in front of Biden's SUV or retire this gun thingy-whoop-tee-do is a nothing in the end. I had to restrain myself from yelling at Jerry Rivers today when he asked "why do you have to have a 30 shot clip to go deer hunting"?

Because you fascist it is my right under the constitution. And don't even think about infringing it. But Frederick was standing there getting ready for school and I didn't want to scream at the TV with him around.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--I love the idea of selling off federal land.--

A large old growth tree is known as a pumpkin and I can assure you there are several pumpkin patches I'd love to get my mitts on.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--I had to restrain myself from yelling at Jerry Rivers today when he asked "why do you have to have a 30 shot clip to go deer hunting"?--

The fact is no one does. But they would come in mighty handy to go quisling, pseudo-journalist hunting should it ever come to that.

[Extraneus]

There will be no TRILLION DOLLAR COIN
There will be no Gun control legislation.

Ok, so if these things are smokescreens, what's going on behind the curtain?

[NK]

Ex-- the goal is a ONE PARTY government in DC-- make DC a TeamDem monopoly -- sort of like ChiTown on the Potomac. The goal is to have 3 Branches of fed Gov't, PLUS the Bureaucrats PLUS the Media under a monopoly of TeamDem-- it's all all about raw power-- to do WHATEVER THEY LIKE.

[Jane - Mock the Media!]

I just wish we could decide that lawmaking has some consequence. If they pass a gun law by executive fiat, and there is another mass shooting, Obama's kids, Biden's wife and Diane Feinstein give up all armed protection for a year.

If Obama spends stimulus money on a business that fails, his paycheck is taken away for a year - for every single failure.

If Harry Reid refuses to obey the law and pass a budget then all of his bank accounts are seized until he gets it done.

Hell I can go on all day.

[Mark Folkestad]

CathyF, the federal government "owns" sixty percent of Alaska, on the nose. Just under one percent of the state is under ordinary private ownership. Thirty-nine percent is owned by the state and Native Corporations.

I am tired of elaborating on the point, but federal land is in trust for all Americans. Over my dead body will our national patrimony be sold. Any such revenues would just be spent to allow "poor" families to have a second, third or fourth HDTV anyway.

[Mark Folkestad]

Get the damned eco-freaks' fingers out of the pie of control of federal lands and mineral rights and we'd have far more revenue coming in, and a more enjoyable, bountiful life, which includes the traditional outdoor pursuits.

[boatbuilder]

"Rampant hag" is a keeper, Porch.

[Clarice]

Jane --don't let your blood pressure rise--but I just read yesterday that Congress exempted their children and the children of staffers from having to pay off their student loans.

[Gus]

Jack just tell old Jerry Rivers to "make love to himself" and the angst will melt away.
Or maybe you can tell him you'll give up your gun rights, when he gives up his 1st amendment rights first.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--I am tired of elaborating on the point, but federal land is in trust for all Americans. Over my dead body will our national patrimony be sold. Any such revenues would just be spent to allow "poor" families to have a second, third or fourth HDTV anyway.--

The last sentence I agree with completely.
The second one is a matter of your personal convictions.
The premise of the first one however I question. In practical terms I agree that millions of acres of Federal lands are a nice luxury. However I have a problem recognizing the Federal government's constitutional right to own vast swaths of land beyond what it needs for defense and other Constitutional duties.
I also question its authority to compel taxation of its citizens, or in the case of the southwest corner, conscripting its citizens, for the purpose of acquiring lands owned by foreign nations and then retaining ownership of those lands beyond its Constitutional duties.

[Captain Hate]

Another firefox update; another clustereff.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Remember the yearly $81 billion Barry care was going to save through electronic medical records?
Turns out to be a net cost not a savings.
Anyone surprised?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Another firefox update; another clustereff.

Posted by: Captain Hate | January 11, 2013 at 02:45 PM--

Yeah, my daughter was using Google chrome on her computer and when I went to Firefox instead it was about ten times slower.
Plus Adobe Flash seems to be a constant problem.

[DrJ]

Plus Adobe Flash seems to be a constant problem.

I've switched to Chrome as well, and like it, largely to avoid the constant Flash issues. FWIW, I've been a Firefox user since it was called Firebird, and I'm loathe to make this sort of software change.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I avoid giving GOOG one single click, if I can help it.

[Mark Folkestad]

Okay, Iggy. We'll give back California to the Mexicans. Have fun with the new administration. I'll try to have guest quarters available if it doesn't work out for you.

[DrJ]

I avoid giving GOOG one single click

Usually I do too, but Chrome is a good product. Firefox these days really sucks, IE and Epiphany won't work across the range of computers I use, and I never liked Opera much (sorry MT!).

[Gus]

Extraneous the Wizard Of Kenya is the man behind the curtain (and Soros), and they are spending us into oblivion. You're a smart dude, you knew that. Obama is trying to crash the economy.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Okay, Iggy. We'll give back California to the Mexicans.--

My point was after asking our ancestors to die acquiring it the government should not have retained half of it for itself, especially absent any compelling constitutional duties to do so.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--I avoid giving GOOG one single click, if I can help it.--

Me too, which is why I use Bing, but Firefox is killing me lately.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Same, but I'm still hiding in XP.

[Neo]

Based on my review of an extensive record of evidence, neither the Paul Krugman nor the NY Times are credible sources about much of anything (with the possible exception of sports scores and standings).

But ultimately, they fail to ask the real question ...
Why not a quadrillion, quintillion or (Bill Clinton's favorite) sextillion dollar coin ?

Why so short-sighted ?

[Danube of Thought iPad]

They must be wingnuts:

"The Montpelier Exempted Village Schools Board of Education, in Ohio, has unanimously voted to let school custodians carry handguns, the Toledo Blade reports.

"This will be the first school district in Ohio to have armed personnel, according to the Blade. Four custodians will be trained to carry handguns around the county's K-12 campus."

[cathyf]

Speaking of firefox... I usually have a firefox session with 50-75 tabs open, including 10-15 JOM threads (I keep them until they are 2 days old.) And every couple of days my session will slow to a crawl, and when I quit Firefox it takes 10-30 minutes to quit, with multiple complaints about javascripts not responding.

Reloading all of my JOM tabs at once is sometimes (but certainly not always) associated with the non-responding script errors, leaving me with the hypothesis that some ad with buggy script rotates through JOM and kills my browser.

Does anyone else have this stuff going on, and any better ideas of what do do about it?

Oh, and I've got chrome and safari running, and they slow down and need to be quit, too. My chrome experience is that it's much slower than firefox, and I am constantly getting "web page not responding" and "flash has crashed" errors from it. Firefox has this feature (fairly new) that it only fully loads the active tab on each page when it starts up, and doesn't load a tab until you click on it. So on a day where I have to restart ff more than once, I won't actually load 80% of the tabs I have open, which makes it feel faster than chrome.

[Jane - Mock the Media!]

but I just read yesterday that Congress exempted their children and the children of staffers from having to pay off their student loans.

Every last one of them should be forced to pay double. These are the very last people who need that benefit.

I completely agree that the main issue in the gun debate should be mental illness, but it just occurred to me it is a double edged sword.

The CO judge decided that the shooter is sane enough to face trial, but the prosecutor still has to prove that, beyond a reasonable doubt, to a jury.

Mental illness is not always the same as insanity, but if we ever get to that topic, we have to be careful not to allow every future shooter to avoid trial in exchange for a temporary padded room.

[Peter]

so members of the royal aristocracy get to go to college free, while the plebes have to work in low end jobs and live in their parents' basements for years to pay off their student loans. That is so outrageous;

[NK]

Clarice- Congress student loans: I assume that's chain e-mail urban legend stuff. A link would be helpful.

[fdcol63]

cathyf,

Others may give you different advice, but I think you're just inviting problems with so many open browser tabs / sessions / windows open at the same time.

I think I'm a pretty heavy internet user, but I rarely have more than 4 IE sessions, with maybe 2-4 tabs open in each.

I would think your available OS resources (memory and processor) are being maxed out, which is probably slowing things down to a crawl. And who knows what's happening with your internet connection / bandwidth, considering all the stuff being passed in tracking cookies, etc.

[xbradtc]

If you try to run Chrome and FF simultaneously, you're almost certain to have Flash problems. Run one or the other.

And if you're not happy with FF, try running Palemoon instead. It's a leaner version that, for me at least, has proven very satisfactory.

[pagar]

http://www.redstate.com/jasonahart/2013/01/11/over-1000-educators-apply-for-armed-teacher-training/

Good news!

[maryrose]

Ohio has very open carry laws. I am happy about the Montpelier School District decision. Now the custodians can be the first line of defense. The rest of the school goes into lockdown mode. The lockdown mode should be practoced ahead of time so everyone knows what to do. Kind of like a fire drill.Prevention and pre-planning will help any rising situation.

[Gus]

Not to worry Jane. Obama will decree by Fiat that carbon dioxide is a danger to the environment, then he'll rule that anyone privately owning a gun is mentally ill.

It's all good.

[maryrose]

Congress members make enough money to send their kids to college. If not let them attend a state school.They shouldn't have any loans. Perhaps well-to do grandparents can help foot the bill.

[maryrose]

pagar:
I attended a course that said teachers should not come between 2 students fighting. They should go for help or get police involved. Running toward an armed shooter without a weapon is madness. You need teachers locked and loaded.

[sbw]

Whomever sent me that email is retracting it. So I will, too. So much for chicken.

[rse]

Jane-too much planning over an extended period of time to be insane.

A focus on mental illness would get in the way of the pursuit globally of positive behaviors (to a statist in a communitarian sense) under the guise of anti-bullying and optimal mental health for all.

This Admin is pretending these provisions are not part of Common Core to avoid public outcry. There was a link in the Council for Exceptional Children newsletter yesterday citing a HuffPo column of January 5 claiming it would be nice if Common Core now added a Whole Child social and emotional emphasis to help avoid these tragedies.

I wanted to hit something at the duplicity. Let's drum up support in the name of Newtown the troubling aspects that were already in place.

[jimmyk]

A trillion dollar BOzo has the benefit of being obviously counterfeit while the destruction by the Fed has more of the nature of mildly uncomfortable inexorably metastasizing growth.

Agreed, the BOzo has the virtue of simplicity and transparency, plus we have centuries of experience with countries directly debasing their currencies. Ben's wizardry is a bit mysterious and depends on reading tea leaves. Ben is at least well-intentioned, unlike The One, but we all know about which road that paves.

[NK]

JimmyK@417-- i agree with that take.

[matt]

Legally, the feds would probably have to give California back to the Californians, not Mexico. California was a Republic for a brief period (26 days), and the former Mexican governor, Vallejo,

We had our national capital in Sonoma.

The Mexicans in California at the time were arguing whether to join the British Empire or the United States, and the Mexican American War pretty well sorted that out.

[DrJ]

Your experience is the opposite of mine, cathyf, but you are on an Apple I and I am (mainly) on Windows. One FreeBSD or Linux Firefox seems to work fine, so there is a platform dependence.

On Windows whenever Firefox slows down, killing Flash solves the problem. Flash and Java both have been real problems recently on Windows.

[cathyf]

I'm pretty uncomfortable with this notion that planning and premeditation are proof that a person is not insane. Look, insanity is mental illness, not mental retardation. Suppose someone goes and shoots up a school because the good pink lizard people from alpha centari convinced him that he was saving the kids from the far more horrific fate of being flayed and eaten alive by the evil green snake people from beta antares who think human children are a delicacy. And that he hides from the police because the pink lizard people also told him that the snakes were using mind control rays on the cops.

So now believing the pink lizard people is proof that a person is NOT insane?

That's, well, nuts!

[Janet]

Insane fashion for men(?) that is worse than the pics we posted awhile ago with foam coming out of the model's pants.

It's sad to see men degrade themselves wearing this crap. Seriously...the poor models with the wood scrap heads at least have the best outfits.

[Janet]

Here's Yoko Ono's fashion line -

Can't design. Can't sing. what next?

[Stephanie]

Can't design. Can't sing. what next

SENATOR ONO?

[hit and run]

Janet:
Insane fashion for men(?) that is worse than the pics we posted awhile ago with foam coming out of the model's pants.

But the foam outfit captures his essence so well.

[Jim Eagle]

You know all this talk about schools and protecting the kids with armed guards, etc. tells me that they are probably not a target anymore. The next big bang is going to be somewhere else. But where?

We have had college campuses, movie theaters, grade schools, high schools, post offices, army bases, shopping malls, IHOPS, nursing homes, factories, et. al. In other words where lots of people mass and congregate. You should be able to run a risk program based on all the vitals of those shootings and come pretty close to finding the next place.

BTW, watching Cavuto and all I want to say is that I hope I never commit a major crime and have to be represented by a screaming blonde.

[fdcol63]

I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "insane" people should be spared the full penalty for heinous crimes.

Personally, I think one HAS to be crazy to do what they do.

The dead are still dead, and the families still suffer, because of their actions.

There's a difference between benignly "crazy" and "murderously insane".

[Janet]

Hah!..thanks, hit. I was looking for that picture!

[Clarice]

NK, The original source was Dick Morris and Fact Check takes some issue with the claim:

"although some full-time congressional staffers participate in a student loan repayment program that helps pay back a portion of student loans. No more than $60,000 in the House and $40,000 in the Senate can be forgiven and only if the employee stays on the job for several years.

The confusion appears to stem from remarks Fox News political contributor Dick Morris made Aug. 23, 2010, (a Monday) on "The Sean Hannity Show." Morris misrepresented the student loan repayment program, and then his comment was further distorted by the viral e-mail and those who passed it along as fact.

Morris: Do you know — my wife Eileen just told me yesterday that staff in the House of Representatives and in the Senate do not pay student loans back? The government pays it for them?

Hannity: I didn’t know that.

Morris: The House of Representatives last year spent $25 million paying the salary, student loans of their staffers.

It is wrong to say congressional staffers "do not pay student loans back." There are student loan repayment programs that may be offered to eligible House and Senate staffers, but those programs have annual and lifetime caps. It’s possible that some congressional staffers will not have to repay their student loans, but that depends on how much they owe and how long they remain on staff. It is also worth pointing out that a similar program exists for executive branch employees, so congressional staffers aren’t the only ones receiving this benefit. All of the programs were created to help recruit and retain qualified employees.

We don’t take any position on the merits of the programs. But it’s simply not true that they exempt anyone from repaying their student loans."

[NK]

Yoko effin' Ono? John's son Julian is a good guy-- a lefty of course, but a pretty successful rocker and businessman-- done with his name, but otherwise, all on his own. Ono's spawn Sean is a useless slacker.

[narciso]

Yes, well Cathy, I'm just sick of these bastards getting off on some excuse or another, Loughner was eventually tried, but only after he served his purpose, Holmes, will too, after an indecent
interval, As to Krugman, Don Luskin, chronicled
the scurrying down the rabbit hole, that the former did in the early part of the decade, Much
like charles austin, did for a time with Richard Cohen, and then he gave it up, because it's binders worth of material.

[rse]

cathy--legally that level of planning makes the presumption of insanity from a legal perspective as in McNaughton's Rule which we all learned in law school problemmatic.

Mentally ill will not get you to legally insane even if there's no question of severe mental illness. And the states tightened up insane after Hinckley who did seem to actually meet that high threshold.

I simply do not know if CO is one of those states with a hybrid guilty but mentally ill statute where treatment is available before incarceration.

[NK]

Clarice-- Thanks. I'm sure the taxpayer is abused in the Congressional Loan repayment program-- Natch-- but it's a far cry from 'exempting' family. The DoD and lots of big corps have student loan repayment deals as part of incentive comp.