Duty To Report

The NY Times tells us about the new gun control deal in New York State. I want to highlight the mental health angle:

ALBANY — Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and lawmakers agreed on Monday to a broad package of changes to gun laws that would expand the state’s ban on assault weapons and would include new measures to keep guns away from the mentally ill.

...

In an acknowledgment that many people have suggested that part of the solution to gun violence is a better government response to mental illness, the legislation includes not only new restrictions on gun ownership, but also efforts to limit access to guns by the mentally ill.

The most significant new proposal would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others. Law enforcement would then be authorized to confiscate any firearm owned by a dangerous patient; therapists would not be sanctioned for a failure to report such patients if they acted “in good faith.”

“People who have mental health issues should not have guns,” Mr. Cuomo told reporters. “They could hurt themselves, they could hurt other people.”

But such a requirement “represents a major change in the presumption of confidentiality that has been inherent in mental health treatment,” said Dr. Paul S. Appelbaum, the director of the Division of Law, Ethics, and Psychiatry at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, who said the Legislature should hold hearings on possible consequences of the proposal.

“The prospect of being reported to the local authorities, even if they do not have weapons, may be enough to discourage patients with suicidal or homicidal thoughts from seeking treatment or from being honest about their impulses,” he said.

The legislation would extend and expand Kendra’s Law, which empowers judges to order mentally ill patients to receive outpatient treatment.

And it would require gun owners to keep weapons inaccessible in homes where a resident has been involuntarily committed, convicted of a crime or is the subject of an order of protection.

Patients with suicidal or homicidal thoughts? Have they looked at the warning label for Prozac, or similar widely prescribed anti-depressants? From WebMD:

Antidepressant medications are used to treat a variety of conditions, including depression and other mental/mood disorders. These medications can help prevent suicidal thoughts/attempts and provide other important benefits. However, studies have shown that a small number of people (especially people younger than 25) who take antidepressants for any condition may experience worsening depression, other mental/mood symptoms, or suicidal thoughts/attempts.

Based on that, there will plenty of patients that ought to be reported here in Prozac Nation.

Here is a frightening 2004 journal article on the topic of SSRIs and suicidal/homicidal behavior. The author, Dr. Peter Breggin, has an impressive resume and seems to be a crusader against modern drug based psychotherapy. More here.

Comments

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--The most significant new proposal would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others. Law enforcement would then be authorized to confiscate any firearm owned by a dangerous patient;--

That law should work wonders on the nuts who are so nutty that they were never going to harm anyone anyway.
For those planning mass murders it would seem to reduce even more the already remote likelihood they will seek help.

--therapists would not be sanctioned for a failure to report such patients if they acted “in good faith--

How about a law sanctioning politicians who get people killed by denying them the weapons they need for self defense and which people end up dead or maimed as a consequence?

[NK]

Ig-- you wanted a crackdown on the dangerous mentally ill. well here it is-- Big Brother. Next step-- the NYS Health Commissioner will issue guidelines directing mental health professionals to diagnose the voluntary desire to own a firearm as a presumption that the person is likely to harm themselves or others, and mandates they report the person to State Police.

[fdcol63]

I'm pretty sure that under ObamaCare, with its fully integrated Electronic Medical Record system, that ALL "dissidents" - like all of us "racists" who "cling to their guns and religion" - will be classified as "mentally ill" and reported to Federal authorities for the public good, of course.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Ig-- you wanted a crackdown on the dangerous mentally ill.--

Did I? I must have been crazy.

[NK]

that's what Joe Stalin did with disagreeable types in the old USSR. Before that-- Lenin rounded up all of the gun owners (retired military, well off) and shot them-- many with their own guns.

[NK]

[email protected]:40-- heh...

[Janet]

The latest from Project Veritas - My Home is a Gun Free Zone!

[Jim Eagle]

Just one more step in the process of creating and maintaining a police state.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Federal law remains that one must have been confined to a mental hospital or been adjudicated insane to be prevented buying a gun. That means these guys, at present, could go and buy another gun or of course if the law was changed they could go obtain one illegally.
The only result of this change is liable to be the shrink's office will be the first stop the nutter makes on his "big day".
Expect the "good faith" option to be exercised quite freely.

[Rob Crawford]

Journolist 4.0? LUN

[squaredance]

It just go to show how irrational the whole song and dance is. Obviously, what this is about is chipping away at citizen rights political grandstanding and putting one's enemies in there place. It really has nothing to do with "protecting children".

What is sad is that the NY State GOP is going along with this farce.

Evidently they feel that by putting this in there they have somehow mitigated the attack on the second amendment. They should have nothing to do with this bill at all, and call these statists out for the tyrant they are. They may not have that much immediate impact because of it, but at least they will have stood up for the citizenry.

The truth of the matter is that short of locking up everyone the state see as "unstable" the only real resort is an armed citizenry.

In actuality, the State of NY has made a mockery out of the Second Amendment for quite some time. If we actually lived in a Constitutional Republic the SCOTUS would have stopped this sort of thing quite some time ago.

[squaredance]

^goES to show...

[anonamom]

Hit, Jane--I've been looking for you, but haven't seen any posts since yesterday afternoon--
I have a (rare!) prior commitment Saturday afternoon.

[Cecil Turner]

Expect the "good faith" option to be exercised quite freely.

Concur. A cynic might say the mental health part of this was window dressing to make the rest of the useless lefty wish list legislation more palatable to the gullible. Hell, I might say that.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

How's about prosecuting those who willfully submit false information when trying to buy a gun that is revealed to be false by the background check?

[AliceH]

Re: [email protected]:33 false info on background checks.

I've seen quite a few articles refer to 70K applications for approved background checks later found to have false information and some tiny number (35? 65? something like that) actually being prosecuted. The source for the numbers is referenced as a DOJ report in 2009, but I can't seem to locate the actual "study" or report.

I'd sure like to know more about that.

[squaredance]

Why should gun owner submit to background checks? Just more right infringement.

Do you submit to a background check to buy a car or a freezer.

Some people still do not get it. The government has not more business regulating gun pruchases than they do toasters.

Convicted felons? Well let us assume that that is a valid limitation, though it is dubious to be sure. Well that is up to their parole officers and LEOs. Search their properties.

Of course, they will not do that for that would require actually doing some police work and going potentially in harms way.

In the end it is not about "protecting" anyone but the political elites.

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--I've seen quite a few articles refer to 70K applications for approved background checks later found to have false information and some tiny number (35? 65? something like that) actually being prosecuted.--

Alice,
I suspect of that 70-80,000 the vast majority are either inadvertent false statements or unprovable as a criminal attempt to buy a gun.

[Dublindave]

Why are we pussyfooting around the 2nd amendment like it's the word of God, we need to make it unconstitutional to own any kind of firearm-period!

We're in charge, we can set up 'rape camps' for Republicans who refuse to relinquish their weapons? We can bus them in in groups of 40 and film the assaults on HD video. Then we make watching it mandatory for the victim and his entire family, every single day?

Destroy the spirit and the rest will follow.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Why should gun owner submit to background checks? Just more right infringement.--

The only rights infringed are those of criminals and nuts who have no right to buy a gun. If you are not a prohibited person your sale goes through. Even the NRA supports the NICS system.

--Do you submit to a background check to buy a car or a freezer.--

I do to buy alcohol if I look young enough or to get a job selling cars or freezers. Admittedly none of those involve a Constitutional right but they're your examples.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Squaredance + WeeDavey = matter/antimatter.

Good thing my comment separated theirs or there might have been an annihilation event.

[fdcol63]

Why are we pussyfooting around the 1st amendment like it's the word of God, we need to make it unconstitutional for idiots like Dublindave and other lliberals in the MSM and academia to express their opinions on blogs like this and in newspapers and on TV/radio!

We're in charge, we can set up 'rape camps' for liberals who refuse to relinquish their media? We can bus them in in groups of 40 and film the assaults on HD video. Then we make watching it mandatory for the victim and his entire family, every single day?

Destroy the spirit and the rest will follow.

[NK]

[email protected]:31- and you would be correct;

[email protected]:02-- this is a much better troll. (a) quite funny, and (b) much more importantly, unlike JOR he doesn't believe any of the shite his side (or the other side) says. I bet DD is quite anxious about the mental health regulations NYS is imposing -- next step -- drunkedness is a mental health disorder that must be reported to the State Police. Mind that knock at the door DD-- they may be coming to take you away. remember, after the revolutions in Russia/China/Cuba the 'social undesirables' were the ones hauled off to the labor camps.

[Manuel Transmission]

Think about the whole ritual of being pulled over by a cop. I can remember when it was a common courtesy to get out and walk back to the squad car and inquire about the stop. Then it went to stay in the car. Then it went to hands on the wheel. Of course, if you're carrying, you have that whole ritual.

So in the course of 20 years or so, our presumed right to do pretty much anything on a public road has deteriorated to "papers, please."

Citizens or subjects?

[marlene]

Mandatory gun instruction for all the arrogant/ignorant reporters and politicians.

[Threadkiller]

"Most people know that drinking too much alcohol can have a negative impact on their mental health but many still find themselves drinking more than they planned, recent research has found.

The research, released by the Salvation Army on Monday, found more than 80 per cent of Australians believe drinking alcohol can worsen a person's mental health.

However, 10 per cent of them said they sometimes drink alcohol as a way of dealing with feeling down or anxious and 21 per cent said they sometimes ended up drinking more than they planned.

The research, which was carried out by market researcher Roy Morgan, involved a random national sample of 638 Australians aged 14 and over.

Advertisement

The Salvation Army's Glenn Whittaker said the findings showed people were becoming more educated about the impact alcohol can have on a person's mental health but that more still needed to be done..."

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/link-between-alcohol-mental-health-issues-20111107-1n2d8.html

They came for the mentally-ill, martini-swilling, gun owners and I said nothing because I drink cheap beer...

[NK]

TK... exactly.

[AliceH]

Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki | January 15, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Well, that is what I suspect as well, but I'd sure like to have the report itself to see how they came up with the number and whether they broke it down into types of "falsehoods", etc.

As for buying a car... aren't there the equivalent of background checks for that? I had to show my valid drivers license and even though I wasn't getting financing, had to show some evidence my check (or credit card - I forget) was good. Years ago, a foreign-student with one of those international driver's licenses was not able to buy a car and he ended up getting a trusted middle-man to buy it for him. It struck me as probably illegal but seemed to work out for everyone.

[Dublindave]

I would love to be part of a squad that goes after Southern Right-wing guns.

And maybe enjoys the spoils that go with that activity.

[NK]

... much better trolling. but don't abuse it....

[rse]

I see the NYT s selling this as a comprehensive plan to solve gun violence. By and large everything in all areas bo wants to do is to reverse the historic presumption in this country that citizens are the primary holder of rights vs government.

In its place we are getting the message that what we may do is at the sufferance and with the permission of govt officials. We are developing a belief system that we are the ones with obligations to the government.

Private legitimate gun ownership is inconsistent with the new theory of the Constitution bo and at least 4 members of scotus have. It is certainly inconsistent with the theory of education they are using. Luckily I tracked Ehrlich's troubling concept of foresight intelligence to some rather graphic but helpful discussions coming out of the Baltics. Quite revelatory on what is really going on.

[narciso]

Of course, mental illness would not be a bar to employment at Air America TV

http://twitchy.com/2013/01/15/boo-hoo-toure-whines-that-okeefe-disrespected-him-by-including-him-in-expose-of-anti-gun-hypocrites/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

[Rob Crawford]

I suspect of that 70-80,000 the vast majority are either inadvertent false statements or unprovable as a criminal attempt to buy a gun.

I'm also curious about that number -- it seems ludicrously high, given the ease criminals have in getting their guns without dealing with NICS.

I could believe it if it's a count of NICS first-checks that are declined or put in "hold" status or whatever they call it. From what I've been told, if you have a military record or possibly even law enforcement background -- or the same name as someone who does and declined to include your SSN -- it may "kick over" into a another system to check you.

And if it *is* the number of false NICS applications, I have to wonder how many were at the behest of the BATFE and how many sales they ordered to go through anyway. The people who brought us "Fast and Furious" and its associated programs have no place talking about enforcing gun laws.

[Rob Crawford]

Of course, mental illness would not be a bar to employment at Air America TV

Oh, god, a guy named Tourettes has been "dissed"! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

[pagar]

IOM, any leftist activity qualifies as mental illness. Who, in their right mind, would think that it was OK to abort inconvenient children.

[Clarice]

I'm starting to feel sorry for NY's shrinks the vas majority of whom I'm sure were for tightening the state's gun laws. They are--under this legislation--in a vise. Add to that the Obamacare disaster and they might consider retraining as plumbers.

[NK]

Liberalism as mental illness is objectively proven fact IMO. That said-- the overwhelming majority of NYT employees use the types of psychotropic drugs listed in this thread post. Shall we have their mental health physicians report them all to the NYS State Police as potential threats to themelves and others? -- maybe we can shut down the NYT as a threat to public health and order. hey-- I kind of like this new NYS law!

[narciso]

Right, because they have to disclose this information, of course the New York State Senate is only 'this side of sane' in the first place.

In other news, how did the Cairo bureau chief,
Kilpatrick miss that Morsy was an antiSemitic loon before now,

[squaredance]

Iggy, your response is not really a valid one. You missed the whole point, and, I must say, your alcohol metaphor is particular specious bit of sophistry--I am surprised that you make it as I had given you more credit that that. In fact all of your arguments are specious. (And comically, you thought you needed to "explain background checks" to me. Typical JOMer---proudly didactic about the obvious and grossly obtuse about the actual point of discussion...too funny. I had expected better of you in particular.)

More to the point: as a mere practical matter, if you think that submitting to "background checks" automatically results in you getting a gun, you have never applied for a gun permit in NYC (or long Island, or other NY counties). In these cases it is just one more bit red tape to string out the process and run out the clock so that eventually the permit can be denied. There is also a large intimidation factor, and woe betide you if you should actually bring in a lawyer to defend those "rights" that you insist are not being infringed here.

The notion of "the guilty have nothing to hide" is rather beside the point, NRA approval of the practice not withstanding (and let me point out that while we should be thankful that the NRA at times stands up for our rights they are by no means final arbiters on what constitutes "infringement".) One does not require (yet) a background check or the "approval" of an advocacy group to exercise free speech or the right of free assembly. These two arguments are specious as well, the one about NRA approval being particularly bizarre.

The whole business a fed background check is in fact a recent development, and one brought to us by the Brady crowd. (and do not be confused, the various states background checks just use the Fed's DB.) It is hard to make sense of the sort of argument of precedence you seem to be implying here, but this too is specious, or if not then just fallacious in the face of historical fact.

Of course it is a rights infringement to have these sort of background checks, and the intent is to intimidate and incrementally curb gun usage and ownership. This is why the Left pushes them as they do. It brings the government into the loop of your purchase and usage, and gives government a scrutiny in the matter that they have no right to have. It is none of their business; they should not be in the loop. Period. It is a right to own a gun. Period. Any government qualification is an infringement. Period.

If, and it is a big and highly dubious if, the state can use prior convictions to limit gun ownership, then this limit should be enforced through monitoring of criminals--home inspections, etc. and not through "background checks". It is an absurd proposition both in concept and in practice. A convicted felon will not use legal channels to purchase a gun he intends to commit crime with.

Limiting the so-called "unstable" from ownership is fraught with peril to liberty. If people are deemed legally sane then they have a right to own a gun. If they are not sane then they should be institutionalized. What you are advocating here is a sort of second class citizen who does not have full rights, and that determination is to be made by the state. This is, as mentioned above, just what they did in the USSR. Famously, rejection of socialism was considered a clinical sign of schizophrenia. No, either you are a citizen or not; either you are sane or not. Definitions of sanity need to be rigorous and based on real world competencies and not loosely based on pseudo-science such as modern Psychology or politicized notions or "normalcy". Again, a specious argument, and, in this case, an especially dangerous and pernicious one.

Beyond all of this, the background check merely opens the way to broadening the classification of what constitutes an "invalid background".

There should not be one at all. It is none of the governments business nor is the intent one of protecting the citizen or his rights.
It is an attempt to impose the state between the citizen and the exercise of his constitutional right and as such is a clear infringement of those rights.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.wbal.com/article/96927/2/template-story/Two-Boys-Suspended-For-Playing-Cops-And-Robbers-In-Recess

I guess a background check for finger possession is coming next...

[squaredance]

^ "that THOSE NOT guilty have nothing to hide"

[Jim Eagle]

Dave (in MA),

Further evidence that we have become a Wussie Nation not a Prozac Nation.

[Janet]

Blast from the past - Britain begging US gun owners to send guns during WWII

[narciso]

One would have to be crazy, to expect a different result;

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/chuck-schumer-cheap-date_696034.html

And yet there was no viable candidate running against him.

[Jim Eagle]

Janet,

Reminds me. Have you ever watched "Dad's Army" a British sit-com from the 1970's about the WW2 Home Guard?

I think it is by far funnier than Are You Being Served or Fawlty Towers.

BTW, lets ban undies:) Man arrested for giving wedgies to strangers

[maryrose]

squaredance:
I didn't read your entire post but I do agree that this is an example of the state and government getting in between the rights of citizens and a legitimate purchase of an item they deem necessary for their overall well-being.
The new Obamacare is similar. It forces you to buya product you don't want thereby taking away your freedom of choice.
as with the coin kerfuffle- Occam's razor applies. The simplest truth is muddied up into creating a false choice.Any legislation limits our choice on what guns to purchase. No one has the right to do that. Just like 30 states objecting to the health exchanges. You can't force people to do what you want them to in a democracy. Anyone who tries to does it at their own peril.

[maryrose]

I will never own or operate a gun so I don't have a dog in this fight.

[narciso]

Ah, what did they call it, civility;

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/01/new-leftist-video-game-bullet-in-the-head-of-the-nra/

[Jim Eagle]

Wednesday it is. 19 EO's of irrelevance in stopping school kid murders by psychos. But we'll all feel better.

What a waste of common sense.

[maryrose]

JIB:
This is a useful extraction today because Bammy's presser went over like a lead balloon and he's scared to death that the Repubs are going to call his bluff and hold fast on the debt ceiling. He's flexing his gun muscles to appear to have some power to throw around. Mark me unimpressed. He's still a wimp. His gun stance proves it.He delegates all the crappy stuff to Slo-Joe ex: stimulus-disaster-Cliff negotiations-worse for dems than repubs and now gun control. And He claims to be trying to help Biden for 2016.

[maryrose]

should be distraction but I would like Obama to be extracted from the presidency.

[Melinda Romanoff]

JiB-

Any bets that these have been sitting in a desk drawer for the last 4 years?

[Jim Eagle]

maryrose,

Did you see my response in re: Ljbujlana on the other thread?

[Rick Ballard]

Mel,

Fast & Furious was planned as an effort to generate an increase in the number of murders committed with long guns. The totalitarian progs recognize the symbolic value of the rifle in the iconic statue of the Minuteman and wish to destroy that value. I don't doubt BOzo has a stack of edicts ready to be signed any more than I doubt the reason long gun sales have sky rocketed is due to recognition of his aims.

[Jim Eagle]

Mel,

More likely since 1992.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Man, nobody wants to bet me.

[sbw]

Ig: How's about prosecuting those who willfully submit false information when trying to buy a gun that is revealed to be false by the background check

How about prosecuting politicians who willfully submit false information?

[peter]

Minus 6 in the Ras. The son of an anthropologist peaked just for the election and is now going back to his former depths of unpopularity. Instead of excitement for a new Romney administration, we are yawning our way through the Marxist malaise.

[Frau Wetten]

Didn't someone here share this quote:

"Don't eat in place called Mom's

Don't date a gal with more problems than you have

Don't bet with a man called Melinda"

[Frau Wetten]

Put me in DoT's camp

The daily news is so depressing, I'm considering checking into a motel and going full "Norm Cousins" by watching old comedies all day. Lubitsch and Sturges, here I come.

[boatbuilder]

I was at the gym and they play non-stop CNN on the TV in the locker room. The NYT runs an ad for their online subscription service. It says: "Find out what separates the New York Times from the news."

I said "Ideology." Got some chuckles and some glares.

[daddy]

Adam Corolla is wrong.

It won't take 50 years. We're there now:

Two Maryland School Boys Suspended For Playing Cops And Robbers At Recess

[jimmyk]

19 EO's of irrelevance in stopping school kid murders by psychos. But we'll all feel better.

If only they were just irrelevant. It's more likely they will make it harder to prevent these murders.

[Old Lurker]

Maryrose "I will never own or operate a gun so I don't have a dog in this fight."

Well as long as enough of your neighbors can repel tyranny for you, you can skate I suppose. But I would say you darn well have a stake in protecting the rights of your neighbors to protect you.

Otherwise only the bad guys and the state will be armed, and you will be converted from citizen to subject as the man said.

[narciso]

I was reading the Frederick Karl on George Eliot,
in order to understand Middlemarch and Romola, better, he doesn't totally agree with the notion that Lewes, was the model for Casaubon, but her relationships with Champman and Spencer did shape her worldview.

[Buckeye]

"I will never own or operate a gun so I don't have a dog in this fight."

Maryrose, if you or someone you care about is protected by a civilian with a firearm, you are likely to see a great big dog jump right into it.

[old lurker (not The Old Lurker)]

Back to TM's post: Earlier today, Forbes posted "Psychiatric Drugs, Not A Lack Of Gun Control, Are The Common Denominator In Murderous Violence." Why did Forbes just delete this article? LUN

[Jane on Ipad]

Anonamom ,

It's been busy. 8 hour depo mon and 2 more today. Worked until 9 last night after the depo and up today at 5:30 to do more. I was so tired yesterday I couldnt see straight. Today was just fun.

Anyway, don't worry about the airport. I may be back again.

[Clarice]

I'm thinking of joining the NRA just for the sticker on my front door.

Jane, I am so glad I did all my deposition work when you could still smoke everywhere...being able to smoke kept me from biting others.

[Clarice]

Frau, I'm really sure it's don't play poker with a guy named Doc.

[sbw]

Maryrose, I learned to fish, to grow vegetables, and to hunt -- not because I was a survivalist or believed the end was nigh.

I did so because I came to understand how tissue-thin civilization really is.

I need to understand it well enough to appreciate what is important and why. From that comes the strength and resolve to protect and grow it, for myself, my children, and others I love and respect.

[Dave (in MA)]

Deval Patrick: Monday he proposed a new estimated $13B in new taxes for transportation projects for the next decade. Today he came up with a new plan to add $1B per year in taxes to extend the K-12 system to toddlers and college students. "We gotta stop being afraid of that converstation" [sic]. Now he's jetting off for Teh Lightbringer's second coronation. I can only imagine what new "investments" he's going to dream up for my paychedk while he's down there pow-wowing with Jughead & pals. Thanks a lot, moonbats.

[Frau Wette]

Clarice-always the stickler. heh

Next she'll say this is not legit.

[Jane on Ipad]

Clarice,

I've always loved taking depos. I get so involved I can never follow my script.

What kind of tax Dave?

[Threadkiller]

"I will never own or operate a gun so I don't have a dog in this fight."

Most people will never run for President and I assume that is why they are so lackadaisical with 33% of the eligibility requirements.

From: The Office of General Jedi Pauly

To: My fellow American Patriots

Since 10 days after the inauguration of Obama in 2009, I had realized that Obama was not a natural born Citizen since he was born to a foreign father who was never a U.S. citizen. Those who qualify for the Office of President must be born to a U.S. State citizen father, because both the place of birth of the offspring and the political condition of the mother are irrelevant in determining natural born Citizen status.

I made a promise 4 years ago to Reverend Doctor Manning that I would not stand by
and let Obama get away with enslaving the natural born Citizens of the United States. I now have made good on that promise. As of January 14, 2013, 10:45am Eastern Time, I have filed a civil suit against the United States and Obama and various defendants, naming them in a criminal conspiracy to overthrow the United States government and enslave Her People.

It is now an established fact in official government court records that Mr. Obama does not qualify for his Office because he is not a natural born Citizen. I invite you to read the proof of the claim above...

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/01/indiana-man-files-obama-eligibility.html

Friggin John Birther Society....

Where do they keep coming from?

[Dave (in MA)]

What I heard yesterday was that the transportation boondoggle will supposedly be funded by some combo of higher gas taxes, higher sales taxes and a NEW payroll tax. Today, the Herald mentioned fare hikes, RMV fees and toll hikes as well.

They haven't said where the money for the totalitarian education system will come from.

The only good news is that, according to the Herald, even some of the top Dems in the Legislature are pushing back on the transportation thing - hopefully it's just a Deval pipe dream to give his something to talk about in the SotS speech. The Globe didn't mention that. I guess they were too turned on by the prospect of higher taxes to notice.

[Porchlight]

The most significant new proposal would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others.

What are "local mental health officials"? And what do they do with said info?

[Porchlight]

I will never own or operate a gun so I don't have a dog in this fight.

maryrose, every American has a dog in this fight. A disarmed citizenry is at increased risk from its government as well as other governments. The point of the 2nd is that an armed citizenry has a deterrent effect on future tyrants.

[Porchlight]

I need to understand it well enough to appreciate what is important and why. From that comes the strength and resolve to protect and grow it, for myself, my children, and others I love and respect.

Really excellent points, sbw.

[matt]

Mental illness itself is misunderstood by many in the legislative world.

People with illnesses can cope with the right meds and therapy in most cases. It is staying on those meds that is the issue, and whether they even get therapy.

Americans like plug-in solutions, that is the one thing mental illness is not. Illnesses evolve, ebb and flow.

Back in the 60's and 70's Dr. Thomas Szasz swept open the doors of the asylums with his opposition to the social control aspects of mental health.

Unfortunately, we have no facilities for the chronically mentally ill today. These are often the denizens of skid row and flop houses and places like the Catholic Worker homes.They are at the bottom, and are often incapable of making rational decisions.

The criminally insane are another issue entirely. How might one predict a mass murder. Like that Tom Cruise movie?

How do we as a society identify the ticking time bombs? Cuomo is taking a half assed measure and surrounding it with violations of the 2nd Amendment. Bloomberg is urging Obama to go Hitler and use edicts.

It's not just about a background check. It's about whether the system is regularly updated and the integrity of the process as well.

Hell, you could go right back to Moynihan's monograph on the African American family. We know the issues. The Left just chooses to deal with them by restricting liberties.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Here are a few useful stats on background check rejections, although not the breakdown Alice was looking for.
It does indicate a goodly number of people with criminal records do nevertheless try to buy guns through dealers.

[henry]

Per Drudge, Obama to ignore Congress and issue his EO's on gun control tomorrow. Law by edict. The dictatorship is here.

[maryrose]

You misunderstand my comment. I believe anyone who wants a gun and is mentally capable and not a threat to society should be able to purchase one. I don't think I need to be armed in my own home. I also won't get into a trunk of a car if someone has me at gunpoint. I will make a run for it. Do you have to own a gun to get an NRA sticker? I would financially support the NRA.

[Jim Eagle]

henry,

Posted that earlier and what I want to know is, how does this arrogant SOB even think he will get away with this?

Kids. That's how. Backdrop, baby. Its all about the kids.

[Jane on Ipad]

Congress needs to defund every executive order.

[maryrose]

JIB:
I saw your response and answered it but I think I was at the end of that thread. Thank you again for the description and information.
According to Carney Obama has reined back his "in your face" comments of yesterday wrt going around Congress.
Bully boy tactics never work. They just make everybody hate you more.
Reid: No chance of weapons ban. Many dems- last seen running away from Bammy and his lunacy. Even Angus King thinks he's nuts!

[boatbuilder]

Maryrose--my late Dad never owned a gun but was an NRA member. He liked their attitude. I don't remember if he got the sticker but I presume he did.

[maryrose]

henry:
So Carney says one thing and Obama does another. Okay, Now I remember how it works. Watch what he does. He can issue anything he wants. We don't have to obey it. Watch repub governors for the next couple of weeks. The House of Representatives is not funding this . Whose in charge of the moey for the Inaugural? Let's cut that budget in half.
Those kids he is using as props should be in school. It's a school day. Where are the parents?

[henry]

JiB, didn't mean to step on your toes. You ask a better question anyway, its Jonah Goldberg's fascism with a smiley face.

[Old Lurker]

Just pulling your chain, maryrose. You made it too easy.

:-)

[Jim Eagle]

henry,

I wear steel toed boots. No worries.

marryrose, do you know there is a Slovnia Club in San Francisco/ You pass it on the way in from the airport. Never went there but always wondered why San Fran?

But anyway, did you know that you have a Slovenian Club nearby? Its in Fairport Harbor.

Link

[maryrose]

OL;
Thank you. I really value your opinion so I had to think again. I am not comfortable with weapons. I guess an old frying pan-my sister has a heavy metal one by her bed or a baseball bat will have to do. However I don't like the crack noise of a baseball bat on someone's skull. I guess I'll have to practice my hits to the throat or when all else fails a well-placed kick to the family jewels.

[Old Lurker]

Jane, "Congress needs to defund every executive order."

Jane, Jane, Jane how very quaint of you to say that. Why that would assume the House proposes a spending plan, it passes the Senate, and the President signs it. Like the law requires.

That has not happened in four years.

Congress just weighs in each year on the omnibus CR and backs it up with approving each increase in the Debt Limit. The Dems have no interest in limiting either and now the President wants to be relieved of even having to get the Debt Limit raised. Even Uncle Ben at the Fed is OK with that so you just know the Monetary Gurus are wide awake and watching our backs.

Life is so so much easier when there are no rules, no budgets, limitless money, and no oversight.

And that's just fine with about 52% of us.

what could go wrong?

[maryrose]

JIB:
Yes I know of the Fairport Harbor Slovenian Club. Many years ago we had a family reunion out there. My mother won the prize for the most grandchildren{15} We met our Milwaukee cousins out there and it was the last time my mom saw all her relatives Anna, Frankie and Antony are family names along with Mary or {mitchka} as my mom was known. My nickname is Little Mitzi. My mom was Big Mitz.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--And comically, you thought you needed to "explain background checks" to me.--

How am I supposed to know what you know? I only said if your record is clear the sale occurs. Sorry if the sentence offended you. And why do you "comically" then explain them to me when I have made it known that I have been an FFL for over thirty years?

--More to the point: as a mere practical matter, if you think that submitting to "background checks" automatically results in you getting a gun, you have never applied for a gun permit in NYC (or long Island, or other NY counties).--

Those local laws do infringe your rights. A gun "permit" is per se an unconstitutional law and has nothing to do with NICS. What have you done to change them besides spout purple prose here?

--One does not require (yet) a background check or the "approval" of an advocacy group to exercise free speech or the right of free assembly.--

A convicted felon and/or mental case does not lose his right to free speech. He does lose his right to own a gun.

--These two arguments are specious as well, the one about NRA approval being particularly bizarre.--

I believe the CCRKBA also approves of NICS. I believe GOA does not.
Not sure what is bizzare about pointing out the largest and most effective gun rights organization in the country endorses NICS. It may not be dispositive, but bizzare? OK, whatever.

--If, and it is a big and highly dubious if, the state can use prior convictions to limit gun ownership...--

What is dubious about denying a convicted murderer or armed robber the right to legally own a gun? Do you favor them regaining their voting rights also?
Should convicted sex offenders have their slates wiped clean as well?

-- then this limit should be enforced through monitoring of criminals--home inspections, etc. and not through "background checks".--

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of police forces needed to monitor the many millions of ex cons and nutters (and their non convict/non nutter families) effectively would certainly pose no danger of a police state.

--It is an absurd proposition both in concept and in practice. A convicted felon will not use legal channels to purchase a gun he intends to commit crime with.--

See the above link which indicates 76% of NICS failures are due to people with criminal records attempting to buy guns, attempts which would have succeeded without NICS.

--No, either you are a citizen or not; either you are sane or not.--

So the mentally ill should be stripped of their citizenship? Not even the USSR went that far.

--Limiting the so-called "unstable" from ownership is fraught with peril to liberty.--

The unstable?
A person has to have been confined to a mental institution against their will or adjudicated as insane in a court hearing, neither one of which occurs very often and only in the most severe cases. I'm sure it's hardly a perfect system but those who are wrongly adjudged do have a method by which they can have their rights restored.

--The whole business a fed background check is in fact a recent development, and one brought to us by the Brady crowd.--

Yes, NICS is a product of the Brady Bill, but background checks occurred for many years prior to NICS in several states based on the 1968 Gun Control Act. Background checks have also occurred on every fully automatic weapons transfer since the National Firearms Act of 1934.

If you want to get rid of background checks then have the law which prohibits felons and the insane from owning them repealed and good luck with that.

[narciso]

What is the state mascot in West Virginia, he does resemble a skunk, like that other Clinton flack

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/01/15/manchin-on-gun-control-everythings-on-the-table/

[Rob Crawford]

Mental illness itself is misunderstood by many in the legislative world.

Naw. They experience it first-hand.

[Rob Crawford]

Do you have to own a gun to get an NRA sticker? I would financially support the NRA.

Nope.

[narciso]

I made that point about the NY Leg, our own local
brand isn't much better,

[Old Lurker]

I hear you Maryrose. My wife gets physically ill around guns and always has so that is an issue in our house too. When YL married her Marine, his friends presented the newlyweds with matching Sigs (and lessons for her), but the gift was not allowed on the Cathedral grounds where they were married in full uniforms, swords and all, nor were they allowed at our house the next day.

Then when they left DC to drive back to Camp Pendleton, SIL went nuts finding a route cross country that was legal with the two guns, since his clearances at work would have been impacted with a gun charge in some flyover state.

And my wife is STILL shaking.