As part of their ongoing effort to participate in a national debate about appropriate gun laws the NY Times editors chime in yet again with a Dubious Fact du Jour:
The States Confront Gun Violence
...
State gun laws matter. Of the 10 states with the most restrictive laws, seven also have the lowest gun death rates, according to a study by the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. Similarly, lax gun laws correlate to a high level of gun deaths.
Hmm, yet I happen to know (based on my kids' ski habits) that Vermont has roughly no gun laws and no crime. So without even peeking I am betting that "lax" gun laws correlate well with widespread gun ownership and a high suicide rate using guns.
No, I didn't cheat - here is the study to which the editors refer, and I will extract the cool map:
Let the barrel-fishing begin! Montana and Wyoming will have very low crime rates (FBI UCR, 2010), yet up there in Big Sky country guns are killing people like flies. Let's compare homicide rates and overall "gun violence" rates including suicides for Montana, Wyoming, and California. The data source is here.
Overall violence related firearm fatality, including suicide:
CA - 7.78 per 100,000
MT - 16.07
WY - 15.6
So far so good for the Times editors. But how about homicides?
CA - 3.60 per 100,000
MT - 1.72
WY - 00 -
Ooops. FWIW, I say Wyoming should be 0.9 based on the UCR showing 5 homicides in a state of 560,000, but either way, it is far below California.
Well - I think preventing suicides is a laudable objective and I am sure that some impulsive suicides carried out by gun might not happen at all if the alternatives were pills, ropes, or tall buildings.
On the other hand, Obama was inspired on gun control by the Newtown school shooting, which was not a mass suicide. Nor was the Aurora movie theatre shooting, the Tucson shooting, and so on. And I can't imagine how limiting ammunition magazines to ten rounds or banning assault weapons would reduce suicides, but I try to learn something new everyday.
If the President and the NY Times want to point to a school shooting and talk about preventing gun violence, maybe they should focus on preventing homicides. Unless they are trying to dupe their readers, of course.
SINCE YOU ASK: The overall suicide rate in Montana and Wyoming is about 23 per 100,000. In California, it is about 10.5. Why the disparity? I am out of ammunition on this topic.
ISTR the analysis has been done and there's no statistically significant connection between that grade and gun violence.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | January 18, 2013 at 01:14 PM
O/T
Wash. Free Beacon @FreeBeacon
RT @AP: BREAKING: Federal grand jury indicts former New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin on corruption charges.
Posted by: centralcal | January 18, 2013 at 01:16 PM
Lack of psy docs dispensing anti-depressants.
Posted by: sammy small | January 18, 2013 at 01:17 PM
LUN, for the analysis of the scoring system of another of the groups. It really doesn't matter that the particular front group was a different one -- all the gun control groups swap staff, have the same funding sources, and use the same rhetoric.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | January 18, 2013 at 01:17 PM
I guess the grand jury wasn't chocolate enough.
Posted by: Danube of Thought iPad | January 18, 2013 at 01:36 PM
--Why the disparity?--
Haven't you seen the farmer dating site ads?
After a lonely stroll in the cornfield with the talking cows who wouldn't want to blow their brains out?
Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki | January 18, 2013 at 01:51 PM
--And I can't imagine how limiting ammunition magazines to ten rounds or banning assault weapons would reduce suicides, but I try to learn something new everyday.--
A really bad shot might give up after ten rounds whereas he might keep blazing away with 30 until he hits pay dirt.
Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki | January 18, 2013 at 01:53 PM
Body count: In the last six months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago (221 killed in Iraq ) and Chicago has one of the strictest gun laws in the entire U.S.!
Chicago: 446 school age children shot for 2012 with strongest gun laws in country - media silent!
Clash Daily " href="http://clashdaily.com/author/clashdaily/%3e" target="_blank"<http://clashdaily.com/author/clashdaily/>
The cesspool known as Chicago probably has the toughest gun laws in the country, yet despite all the shootings, murders, and bloodshed, you never hear a peep about this from the corrupt state run media. In Chicago , there have been 446 school age children shot in leftist utopia run by Rahm Emanuel and that produced Obama, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. 62 school aged children have actually been killed by crazed nuts in Chicago in 2012. So why isn't this news worthy? Is it because it would embarrass those anti second amendment nuts who brag about Chicago 's tough gun laws? Is it because most of kids who were shot and killed were minorities? Or is it because the corrupt media doesn't want to show Chicago in a bad light?
<http://crimeinchicago.blogspot.com/2012/12/connecticut-doesnt-have-shit-on-chicago.html>
THE LIST OF MURDERED SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN 2012
18 YEARS OLD- 15
17 YEARS OLD- 16
16 YEARS OLD- 16
15 YEARS OLD- 6
14 YEARS OLD- 4
13 YEARS OLD- 2
12 YEARS OLD- 1
7 YEARS OLD- 1
6 YEARS OLD- 1
446 School Age Children Shot in Chicago so Far This Year
THE LIST OF SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN SHOT IN 2012
18 year old- 110
17 year old- 99
16 year old- 89
15 year old- 62
14 year old- 39
13 year old- 21
12 year old- 10
11 year old- 2
10 year old- 3
9 year old- 1
7 year old- 3
6 year old- 2
5 year old- 1
4 year old- 1
3 year old- 1
1 year old- 2
So why isn't this news worthy?
The leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
President: Barack Hussein Obama
Senator: Dick Durbin
House Representative: Jesse Jackson Jr. (resigned)
Governor: Pat Quinn
House leader: Mike Madigan
Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike)
Mayor: Rahm Emanuel
Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the country.
State pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country.
Cook County ( Chicago ) sales tax 10.25% - highest in country.
A culture of corruption that would make a Louisiana politician blush with envy.
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
Posted by: John Mayer | January 18, 2013 at 02:26 PM
Well, if IL is rated B-, then almost all of the killings must be in Chicago. Hmmm....
Posted by: matt | January 18, 2013 at 02:34 PM
Read a Lawyer’s Amazingly Detailed Analysis of Bilbo’s Contract in The Hobbit
(via Instapundit)
Posted by: Extraneus | January 18, 2013 at 02:35 PM
In Detroit a few years back, a union official was found in the alley behind the union hall with two bullet holes through his head, and a .357 beside him. The coroner ruled it suicide. Statistics, liars, etc. ...
Posted by: Adenoid Hynkel | January 18, 2013 at 02:50 PM
Adenoid Hynkel, that sounds so much like the case of my great-aunt. She was found face down in the alley behind the bar that her husband owned and ran, with an entry wound in her back and an exit wound in her front. The revolver was just to the side of the bar's back door step. The bar was the favorite watering hole for the precinct's cops. It was written up as a suicide.
Posted by: Mark Folkestad | January 18, 2013 at 03:28 PM
Posted by: Cecil Turner | January 18, 2013 at 04:00 PM
Ex,
Thanks for that 2:35 link. I will read this to Frederick as he holds and reads the contract. We have a copy of the "coffee table" book on the making of the film and it has a facsimile copy of the real contract used in the movie. BTW, it is amazing the creativity and originality of the character development, makeup and costuming. Great movie, better book.
Posted by: Jack is Back (Again)! | January 18, 2013 at 04:03 PM
The overall suicide rate in Wyoming I believe is due to the weather and the winds. Big cabin fever syndrome.
Posted by: daddy | January 18, 2013 at 05:13 PM
We had a bank robbery up here on Wednesday with a Hammer, but common sense and a good samaritan allowed to cops to nab the guy pretty quickly. FBI: Man robbed Anchorage bank with a hammer
Guy sounds like a psycho and has previous theft arrests.
Posted by: daddy | January 18, 2013 at 05:26 PM
Spent a few weeks in Evanston and Green River, Wyoming.
Pretty sucky. Suicide sucky?
Throw in the wind, a cheating girlfriend and a dead dog; maybe.
Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkywatzky | January 18, 2013 at 05:47 PM
Heh. Iggy..At least you didn't put the dog first.
Posted by: clarice feldman | January 18, 2013 at 06:06 PM
Ignatz, that sounds like the makings of a great Country music song!! Seriously. Add a little pick up truck and some drankin'. Butt, one thing is missing. That girlfriend, that cheatin' girlfriend. What does she look like???
Heh! I'd love to help write the song.......
Posted by: Gus | January 18, 2013 at 06:16 PM
I don't see how we could top David Allan Coe/Steve Goodman, Gus;
Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkywatzky | January 18, 2013 at 06:34 PM
I know, you are shocked as much as I;
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2013/01/18/nytimes-buries-own-poll-findings-showing-support-armed-guards-school-bl
Posted by: narciso | January 18, 2013 at 07:02 PM
That's hard to top.
Posted by: Extraneus | January 18, 2013 at 07:18 PM
The wind was howlin'
Saw Jo-Lynne and Dad in bed
Called Ol' Buck to fetch me a Hoegaarden
But Ol' Buck just laid there dead
What's a country boy to do?
Oh what's a country boy to do?
Done tried and failed to keep a positive outlook
But what's a country boy to do?
Posted by: Extraneus | January 18, 2013 at 07:30 PM
[various plaintive yodeling refrains]
Oh what's a country boy to do?
Posted by: Extraneus | January 18, 2013 at 08:06 PM
Again, you make the mistake of thinking that this is a rational argument.
This, like any other argument with the left, is not about reason. It is about power--all else is just about preparing the political battle field. This all is either propaganda or agit-prop.It is like trying to have a rational argument about the economic effects of Aryan ideology with a NAZI.
This is particularly pernicious in this case:
1) As a fundamental matter of principle, it does not matter really what the stats are. This is about a right; it is not about some utilitarian argument, outcome or goal. It well could be that a republic that has freedom to bears arms does have more gun deaths, at least from non-government violence. In fact, this does seem likely. Where there is freedom of choice and personal responsibility then it well could be that more people make the wrong choices and act irresponsibly, and other will have to more frequently defend themselves against such people. The problem with these debates about data is that we letting the Left control the terms of the argument. The amount of gun deaths are fundamentally irrelevant to the true issue at hand. If it were, then we would be talking about the ghastly death toll of collectivist tyrannies of the last century.
2) Trying to debate against propagandists legitimizes the propaganda. The immorality of the approach itself needs to be called out.
3) A substantial minority, perhaps a plurality (majority?) of Americans lack the ability, evidently, to parse these sort of arguments and debates. They are swayed by emotion and sentimentality, and have profound difficulties with suppressing primitive scapegoating impulses. They are not rational adults and they will never grasp these issues. That is why we have arrived to this shocking turn of events in the first place. by merely engaging in these sort of "debates" we are not really accomplishing much but talking to ourselves.
The Left, of course, understands all of this. That is why they tell such whoppers in public. No matter how it might appear, they are not engaging is some sort of "public discourse". Not at all. As they almost always do, conservatives mistake the true nature of their enemies and their capacity fro nihilism, ruthlessness and pure evil.
It is way past time to start calling the Democrats by their true names.
Posted by: squaredance | January 18, 2013 at 11:22 PM
A partnership formal was discovered in the street behind the partnership area with two topic gaps through his go, and a .357 beside him.
Posted by: International Schools Mumbai | January 19, 2013 at 12:35 AM
"Well - I think preventing suicides is a laudable objective and I am sure that some impulsive suicides carried out by gun might not happen at all if the alternatives were pills, ropes, or tall buildings."
Ok, stop right there Maguire. Preventing suicides may be laudable, but a government trying to ban, control or limit the possesion of items because a small number of people use them to kill themselves is not. Where does this type of thing occur? When people are booked into jail or a psychiatric facility. Is that the way you think government should treat the citizenry?
As people who should have any object that can be used to kill themeselves with taken away from them. Please....
Posted by: Landru | January 19, 2013 at 02:46 PM
People who disagree with government that drives people crazy enough to commit suicide are obviously crazy and shouldn't have firearms.
Posted by: sbwaters | January 19, 2013 at 04:17 PM
What interest does the state have in suicide?
Posted by: BT | January 19, 2013 at 09:26 PM
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Posted by: FishingCharter | January 20, 2013 at 07:32 AM
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Posted by: sbwaters | January 20, 2013 at 03:59 PM
There are huge ethnic differences in suicide rates. As I recall, the white rate is much higher than the black rate, and the northern European rate is much higher than the southern European rate, though I think Hungarians (not all that far north) are at or near the top, with most or all of the Scandinavian countries also in the top ten. (Maybe there is something in the old 'ice people' / 'sun people' concept: ice people are certainly more prone to suicide.) I don't know about Asians (Eastern or Southern), Middle Easterners, or American Indians.
Do I have to finish the argument, or is everyone here already way ahead of me? Obviously different states have different mixes of various ethnicities, and this will naturally affect the overall suicide rates, quite apart from any effects of differing availability of guns.
I suspect there are also ethnic differences in the preferred method of suicide. There are certainly gender differences, and not only in the ancient world. A Classicist got a whole book ("Tragic Ways of Killing a Woman") out of the fact that in Greek tragedy, suicidal men almost always stab themselves, while suicidal women almost always hang themselves. In the modern world, I believe men are more likely to use guns and succeed, and women are more likely to use pills and fail - or at least fail in killing themselves, while possibly succeeding in what they were really trying to accomplish.
I'm too lazy to do the research, but I suspect someone less lazy could utterly destroy the referenced study.
Posted by: Dr. Weevil | January 20, 2013 at 11:21 PM
The Times lies... Go figure...
Posted by: jorod | January 21, 2013 at 12:53 AM