Reality Overtakes The Times

Only a few days ago acting CIA chief Mike Morell broke a bit of news on enhanced interrogation, taking a different view than the party line espoused by Sen. Diane Feinstein.

In their reporting back then, the Times pretended the boat was not rocking. Now, however, the Senators are squawking and trying to get the CIA back on board. From the AP:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Lawmakers accused the CIA of misleading the makers of the Osama bin Laden raid film "Zero Dark Thirty" by allegedly telling them that harsh interrogation methods helped track down the terrorist mastermind.

...

A Senate Intelligence Committee investigation into the CIA's detainee program found that such methods produced no useful intelligence.

The CIA's acting director, Michael Morell, recently contradicted that finding. In a statement last month to employees, he said that while the film was wrong to depict harsh techniques as key to finding bin Laden, those interrogations did produce some useful intelligence.

"Some came from detainees subjected to enhanced techniques, but there were many other sources as well," Morell said.

In a letter to the CIA this week, Sens. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., John McCain, R-Ariz., and others asked Morell to back up his claim and to share documents showing what the filmmakers were told.

It will be interesting to see this cleared up. Or hushed up. I think the CIA has an institutional bias towards justifying its past behavior. On the other side, Ms. Feinstein et al knew their answers about the efficacy of enhanced interrogation before they began their investigation. As to the truth, who will know?

 

Comments

[narciso]

I must be part psychic;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-cia-veteran-on-what-zero-dark-thirty-gets-wrong-about-the-bin-laden-manhunt/2013/01/03/4a76f1b8-52cc-11e2-a613-ec8d394535c6_story_1.html

[narciso]

Wow, what haven't they told us yet;

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/03/exclusive-al-awlaki-booked-pre-11-air-travel-for-hijackers-fbi-documents-show/

[Clarice]

I knew you'd love that awlaki story, narciso. You've been watching him like a hawk.

[narciso]

You know Clarice, it does make me respect Bob Graham, who was one of the only who really pushed on those leads, both in California and Florida, for all the subsequent craziness he showed,

[narciso]

respect a little more, Pannetta was hired because he was willing to deny the fruits of these interrogations when he was out of office, he had to be a little more nuanced when presented with the evidence, In the film, he's played by 'Tony Soprano', James Gandolfini,

[narciso]

If you examine the 302's in the link, it looks like he covered expenses for at least 6 hijackers, including those that didn't train in Arizona,

[narciso]

I think I read the receipts right;

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/01/03/fbi-documentation-al-awlaki-credit-purchases/

[Danube of Thought iPad]

Had an all-too-brief but delightful dinner with jimmyk at the Coronado Marriott tonight. We gossipped considerably about our views on all of the usual JOM suspects, and I can report that (a) we were in very substantial agreement about all of you, and (b) not an unpleasant thought was expressed.

And he was fresh from seeing NK and JiB a day or so ago. Surely we can get a quorum together somewhere?

[bunkerbuster]

We know torture didn't ``work'' in the bin Laden case because he remained at large for nearly a decade after key al Qaeda figures were waterboarded.
The argument for torture is that it works reliably and that it quickly delivers information not available through other means. If it's not quick, not reliable and not uniquely effective, why do it?
Any benefits of torture must outweigh the costs. Otherwise, it doesn't "work" in any meaningful sense of the word.
Torture "works" in the same sense kerosene "works" in a Porsche. It may, under certain conditions, power the vehicle for a time, but it will not provide much power and will eventually destroy the engine.
Torture might deliver some sort of information under some circumstances, but it also yields incorrect information and weakens a corner-post in the framework of democracy and rule of law.
The bin Laden case shows that even if some information was obtained by torture, it then took a decade to develop and use. By any reasonable definition, that means it was borderline useless in preventing terrorism. Given the abysmal failure to capture bin Laden quickly, it seems likely that much of the information obtained was false and actually detracted from the mission, though we may never know for certain.
And whatever meager data gain was obtained is surely overwhelmed by the reality that we will never be able to deliver American justice, ie a fair trial, for KSM and all others who were tortured, given any evidence from the suspects themselves is tainted.
Moreover the use of torture forced intelligence officials to inflict cruelty in ways that damage the morals of those who tend toward conscientiousness and foment the amoral carelessness of those who tend toward the sociopathic.

[Melinda Romanoff on Kindle]

I have a headache and feel slightly disoriented from watching an amateur contortionist.

[Cecil Turner]

The bin Laden case shows that even if some information was obtained by torture, it then took a decade to develop and use.

Nice illustration of another article-of-liberal-faith: that the only point of the War on Terror was to capture/kill Osama bin Laden. Hence Obama is a FP success, the attack in Benghazi was a spontaneous demonstration against a viral video, and any intelligence developed against Al Qaeda in general during the Bush administration was useless.

It's almost internally consistent . . . which is better than they manage on the fiscal stuff.

[bunkerbuster]

Cecil: Pay attention. I start my post by referring specifically to the role of torture in the bin Laden case. Nothing at all in there to suggest that the war on terror was only to capture bin Laden. You made that up, presumably out of a lack of anything better to say...

[Captain Hate]

weakens a corner-post in the framework of democracy

Lots of torture going on in that brief but extremely ignorant metaphor.

[centralcal]

Oh, where is Jane this morning? I am sure she will be thrilled with this breaking news:

Richard Grenell ‏@RichardGrenell

Andrea's excited > @mitchellreports: Senator Barney! Frank tells @MorningJoe he wants to be appointed temp Mass senator til special election

[Jane: Mock the Media]

I'm here.

Shouldn't Barney be on his honeymoon?

[rse]

Oh Boy. On that note I may be leaving. I can just hear how Bawney will be pronouncing Senate.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Take out the seasonality of the unemployment data and this is awful.

[Janet]

Good ol' Barney. Boyfriend #1 runs a male prostitution ring out of Barney's house. Boyfriend #2 gets a job at Fannie Mae. Boyfriend/wife #3 gets busted for pot while Barney's at the house.
It's all no big deal cause Barney is a Dem.

[Extraneus]

Shouldn't Barney be on his honeymoon?

Wearing a dog collar and leash.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Well, I was going to have breakfast....

Guess I'll reload the coffee.

[Clarice]

Charles Krauthammer with whom I rarely disagree, has an editorial in the WaPo claiming Obama played the Reps to a Tee and now has clear sailing to a huge welfare state. I have a different opinion. as I said yesterday I think there wasn't much the Rs could do, that the tax deal was not bad and under al the circumstances it was great to separate the tax and spending issues.

The next phase is where conservatives have to apply the screws,

[narciso]

The point of this thing, was never to try Bin Laden, it was to disable his operation, cut off the appendages .apprehending KSM was a much more significant goal, because he could never replace such an able coordinator, Faraj al Libi, couldm't measure up, El Shukrijumah a home town boy, in a manner of speaking, has certain advantages as did Awlaki, but not nearly at the same level.

the flurry of lawfare from persons now in the administration, like Dyskal at last count did block this objective, she was the one who didn't believe the pleas we had already secured from KSM, Attash, et al.

now Soufan had washed his hands of the whole deal, and much likeScary Larry, had hung out a shingle, ironically after having served as Liason to the Al Thani'Black Prince' who had shelted Hamad in the interim period.

[Captain Hate]

as I said yesterday I think there wasn't much the Rs could do, that the tax deal was not bad and under al the circumstances it was great to separate the tax and spending issues.

The next phase is where conservatives have to apply the screws,

After initially blasting the deal, I'm leaning more to your way of thinking on this. I still think Boehner was a dunce for not having removed the recalcitrant Repubs from the committees at least a month earlier *and* not having done the arm-twisting and having passage assured before coming up with that Plan B nonsense; but he's what we're stuck with moving forward.

[Janet]

Good Lord, Extraneus. Did Barney ever have to explain THAT? What the hell was that about?...penance for some misbehavior? Good Lord.....

[centralcal]

I am (mostly) in Clarice's camp. I still think there is much room for improvement on our side and I hope Boehner means it about not negotiating alone, secretly, in the future.

[narciso]

Of course, the Times is challenging 'the narrative' that Scott Shane, who probably wrote this byline, Dana Priest at the Post, Jane Mayer at the New Yorker, and my own home town gal, Carol Rosemberg at the Herald, have been spinning for the better part of a decade. mostly by listening to Soufan, Coleman, McCarthy and probably Glen Carle, the real life Emmett Firtzhume,

[centralcal]

Well what do you know?

DRUDGE REPORT ‏@DRUDGE_REPORT

IL Dems Pull Measure To Ban Weapons; Not Enough Votes... http://drudge.tw/1000RDE

[narciso]

I guess they will chalk this up to being hungover;

http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/how-about-them-apples-those-making-30k-to-take-larger-otax-hit-that-those-making-500k/

[Melinda Romanoff]

c-cal-

I meant to post that yesterday afternoon when they tabled them for the February session. Then I got on the phone with another poster here for an hour and a half of chatting about everything and nothing.

[narciso]

Judge Posner, is likely to slam them hard with his gavel, because they didn't show their work,

[Cecil Turner]

You made that up, presumably out of a lack of anything better to say...

I realize that actually took a little thought, and reaching a conclusion, and that you weren't provided the answer by a DNC press release, but still . . . This ain't rocket science . . . do try to keep up.

The fault in your "bin Laden case" logic is that it assumes one is trying first to capture/kill bin Laden. If the goal were something different--as in the Bush administration's oft-repeated goal of defeating further attacks--then the time line you so blithely assume to be long (based on the time interval between the events of someone first talking to a terrorist and the killing of bin Laden) might be something quite a bit different: like simply a lower priority on following certain leads.

The other logic fault in there is that the most commonly cited intelligence obtained from detainees is information on other contacts. One still has to follow those contacts in order to obtain useful information . . . but one would never have known where to start without the initial steer. That doesn't mean the intelligence took a decade to use (even if March 2003-May 2011 were in fact a decade).

[matt]

Obama is just as good at snookering the American people as he is the Republicans. Maybe we should call him the Great Snook.

As to OBL there was the small issue of the ISI aiding and abetting him for 10 years just as it aids and abets the Taliban.

[matt]

You have to shake your head at the usual morons getting in high dudgeon about waterboarding.

We have relived this episode more times than Ground Hog Day, but it gives the WH and the teflon togas the chance to establish their moral superiority one more time.

[Clarice]

JPod also agrees with me--it's not conservative to embrace chaos and that's what would have happened without this deal.http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/conservatives_gone_wild_46ZK0a4lqURkP5uWs6tQRM

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

The RNC/DNC Consent Decree keeps me from leaning into the pro republican camp.

They will blow all future deals as well.

[Cecil Turner]

I still think there is much room for improvement on our side and I hope Boehner means it about not negotiating alone, secretly, in the future.

Me too. Fiscal conservatism sells very well (even amongst the deluded who think you can raise taxes a few points on the wealthy and balance the budget), and all spending bills have to pass the House. Even the lapdog media can't continue to cover for the Democrats' spendthrift ways, and the upcoming debt ceiling debate is a good opportunity to let in some sunlight.

[Melinda Romanoff]

TK-

Can I have that link again? Thanks.

[narciso]

Yes, they were his moving company, and tech support, from Peshawar to Sharmshir to Abbotabad,
'the Last Man' probably came closest to describing their relationship, 'Bloodmoney' by contrast was too circumspect.

[narciso]

Honestly, do I have to review the history of said deals, since 1982, with the TEFRA deal,

[Melinda Romanoff]

This H3N2 flu strain looks nasty. Putting some in ICU, in MN.

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

Cecil, I know we have had a rough road in the past, but I would like to thank you for the olive branch you just extended:

Even the lapdog media can't continue to cover for the Democrats' spendthrift ways

You were trying to give me a good laugh, weren't you?

:-)

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/dnc_v_rnc_consent_decree/

[Melinda Romanoff]

Cool! Thanks!

[Cecil Turner]

You were trying to give me a good laugh, weren't you?

It's either that or cry (even though I find the underlying situation deeply unfunny).

On the other side, Ms. Feinstein et al knew their answers about the efficacy of enhanced interrogation before they began their investigation.

More to the point, every Republican on the committee except Olympia Snowe refused to approve the report :

The ranking Republican, Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, said it contained "significant errors, omissions, assumptions and ambiguities -- as well as a lot of cherry-picking."

It's impossible to evaluate the specifics of an unreleased report, but if I'm forced to pick between Feinstein's gushing and Chambliss's skepticism . . . well, that's not a hard call.

[Jane: Mock the Media]

I'm not mad at Boehner, and never really was - so I tried to keep my mouth shut during the rage. At the same time I'm not the least bit sure I am thinking about all of this the right way.

While I do wish the republicans had said "we are not passing a bill before we read it" and then point out the kajillion dollars in payoffs to Goldman Sachs, I understand the down side.

If they capitulate on the debt ceiling I'm pretty much done. I want a balanced budget amendment. I want everyone in the liberal media to die a slow and painful death; I want Obama to be seen as the corrupt laughing stock he is, but I will settle for the debt ceiling increase tied to a balance budget.

Oh and I want Drudge to keep pointing out that Hillary's medical history completely disqualifies her for future office.

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

No problem, Mel. That link has the majority of the cases. If you add Daily Kos or Balloon Juice to your search you find plenty of info on how the libs use the Decree to the detriment of the GOP.

[Melinda Romanoff]

A Balanced Budget Amendment will be a non-starter for me. It has implications far beyond normal governmental expenditures, and is why the Founders left it out.

Sound money practices would be enough for me and a full defunding of the re-establishment of The Great Society, which is what has been done, IMO. These people never matured past 1967.

[Melinda Romanoff]

When I see a tool, I usually can figure out how it's used.

[Captain Hate]

I'm with Mel on the Balanced Budget; the fact that we've had such a bunch of free spenders blinds us to the downside of an overly restrictive requirement.

[Danube of Thought iPad]

"We know torture didn't `'work'' in the bin Laden case because he remained at large for nearly a decade after key al Qaeda figures were waterboarded."

The Identity Teenager has his opinion; the CIA director has a different one. Take your pick.

[Janet]

You have to shake your head at the usual morons getting in high dudgeon about waterboarding.

They should have just called it "droning". Nobody seems to care about blowing jihadists to smithereens from drones.

[Rob Crawford]

Bubu hasn't choked to death on his own idiocy yet?

Damn.

[Danube of Thought iPad]

"Nothing at all in there to suggest that the war on terror was only to capture bin Laden."

And yet the only "proof" offered to show waterboarding didn't work is that it didn't result in the immediate killing of bin Laden.

This kid ties himself in knots in a hurry.

[Cecil Turner]

Interesting take on the "compromise" here (‘Cliff’ win backs prez into corner):

Well, the wealthy have met the tax-ecutioner. So, who wants to explain to the masses that the $60 billion they’re now paying is being spent on more government programs, and will do nothing to fix the deficit or create jobs?

(H/T: Insty)

[Rob Crawford]

Charles Krauthammer with whom I rarely disagree, has an editorial in the WaPo claiming Obama played the Reps to a Tee and now has clear sailing to a huge welfare state.

We already have a huge welfare state.

[Rob Crawford]

Well what do you know?

DRUDGE REPORT ‏@DRUDGE_REPORT

IL Dems Pull Measure To Ban Weapons; Not Enough Votes... http://drudge.tw/1000RDE

From what I read it has not been pulled, just delayed until the appropriate bribes politicking can be done.

[Rob Crawford]

You have to shake your head at the usual morons getting in high dudgeon about waterboarding.

And yet they never demanded the prosecution of the people who committed waterboarding in the streets.

[narciso]

Well we see from the Herridge report, that the FBI's rather patient chats with Awlaki, did little to decipher his network, we only found out about princely collaboration from Zubeydah,
which matches the information recovered from the Prestancia compound,including the phone logs which included that enterprising lad El Shukrijumah.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rob-

Tabled til the February Session.

[narciso]

No, they did worse, thanks to Kirikaou, they released the names through the terrorist lawyers,
to 'flush out' the interrogators, endangering him and his family.

[rse]

Well, Melinda I just wrote the post you and others always wanted me to write. I cannot wait any longer from what I am hearing from classrooms. All in a hurry.

http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/what-happens-when-repeated-and-intentional-threats-to-student-beliefs-becomes-mandated/ is the post where I reverentially but affirmatively point out you cannot insist you are trying to break the student's sense of self and incoming belief system and then wonder what is happening.

It is not about Newtown but uses the published advocacy of an ed prof who himself hurried to use the tragedy. I still do not want to talk about CT specifically or what was going on in that particular school district. If I did though it would support what I am saying. And that's all I will say for now on that.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Thanks, rse! Been waiting for this one.

[narciso]

You identify the Signal, rse, which is more importnnt then any particular event, recurring patterns, leading to the same behavior,

What I was referring to earlier;

http://moneyjihad.wordpress.com/tag/adnan-el-shukrijumah/

[NK]

[email protected] raises an important point about the mental illness that is modern 'liberalism'. Don't use cruel means to interogate AQ NO MATTER HOW EXIGENT the circumstances, don't harshly interogate AQ even if the purpose is to save innocent lives-- BUUUUTTTTT, if you have 'actionable intelligence' no matter how dubious, no matter if the source may have a score to settle with the target, by all means, drop the Hellfire Missles on them-- and their collaterally damaged families-- that's absolutely fine. That's all neat and tidy on digital feed from 15,000ft up. That value system is sick and corrupt. By all means- the Constitution's penumbrals means any woman can walk in a kill a fetus child-- no questions asked-- BUUUTTTT-- the black and white 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights, means a single mom living more than a few minutes from police response can't own a firearm to protect her children from a violent intruder to their home or car. This is a sick and corrupt value system. This is mental illness.

[narciso]

It is the return to Serfdom, the Sovereign determines your life from birth to death, from morning to dawn, you owe him allegiance for your lot in life, and all your meager possessions,

[Janet]

Do we even capture any jihadists anymore? I bet our serious guys capture them...get the info they need with a lot harsher methods than waterboarding (fire)....& then shoot them. I don't KNOW this, but....

[Janet]

Looking at those pics of Obama on vacation up at Drudge...how in the world anyone could vote for him is beyond me. Is there any Cindy Sheehan-like protester camping in a ditch on Oahu?

[narciso]

Very rarely, and only the small fry, Janet;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/01/02/Obama-Rendition-Press-Mum?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BreitbartFeed+%28Breitbart+Feed%29

[derwill]

Re the "fiscal cliff" deal . . . It seems to me that since they only control the house, the GOP only had two options. Let the Bush tax cuts expire by doing nothing--thereby raising taxes on everyone, or reach some kind of deal with the Dems, which was going to have to include some kind of tax raise on "the rich" since they control both the Senate and the White House and thus any other kind of deal that raised taxes on no one was always a non-starter--especially since all the Dems had to do was nothing and the Bush tax cuts on "the rich" as well as everyone else would automatically expire.

I think they did as well as possible given the position they were in. For one thing the tax rates on everyone are now permanent, so raising taxes on "the rich" or anyone else can no longer happen automatically by simply letting an expiration date kick in, but rather it will take an act of congress and a signature by the president--much harder for the Dems to accomplish in the future.

Also, the Dems had successfully convinced the clueless muddle that all we have to to solve our fiscal problems was raise taxes on the rich. And since they are the clueless muddle what they're now hearing is that the Dems "won" because taxes on the "rich" will go up, so problem solved right?

Oops.

---

I hope everyone here at JOM had a Merry Christmas, and will have a wonderful 2013.

[narciso]

No, please, we appreciate your appearance, but don't you have a golf game to get to;

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/01/figures-eleven-months-after-obama-praises-us-furniture-company-at-white-house-the-company-goes-bust/

[rse]

narciso-the ed prof in his book actually mentions serfs in a fiefdom. He equates a subject matter orientation with treating students like serfs. It is a world of returning to the primitive trying to create his own sense of what is going on.

Elsewhere in my Orwellian world propaganda is literally described in Fecho's book as classroom activities that are not based on a student's actual experiences.

[Melinda Romanoff]

WH launches new hashtag war #FiscalCliff411 trying to explain what they've done.

The countertweets are not going their way.

[Janet]

Thanks, narciso. Great link.

[narciso]

And yer, when it comes to discipline, they treat the students as autonomous individuals, the goal is the same, to sow chaos in the system, to later take advantage of said conditions,

[Porchlight]

Surely we can get a quorum together somewhere?

DoT, I think a JOM meetup is very doable if a date/place is chosen well in advance. Ideally somewhere either centrally located or a place where it's fairly easy to book inexpensive plane flights.

I would be willing to host at either of my folks' places in Minneapolis or Boca Raton, depending on the season, and assuming I could get my parents' permission (but as my dad is a JOM fan I don't think it's a problem).

[Melinda Romanoff]

Not so.

I believe it's to create an emotive crowd willing to follow. Strip creativity from society, except at the elite level. Look at what happened in Russia after the collapse. Over 90%% of the population was ill-equipped to cope with personal freedom. Those of the elite grabbed and became the oligarchy. Creating the modern Aristocracy, surrounding the Court of Vlad I, of the GRU.

[pagar]

" And since they are the clueless muddle what they're now hearing is that the Dems "won" because taxes on the "rich" will go up, so problem solved right?"

Not that easy! More, More, More must be taken.

http://weaselzippers.us/2013/01/03/maxine-waters-we-need-to-keep-raising-taxes-on-the-rich/

[NK]

[email protected] I agree with that assessment of the political tactics of the "Cliff". I also agree that BarryI/Nancy/Harry now have a giant shite sandwich, becauae they have their tax increase on the RICH, and no more income taxes coming in -- the NY,Calif, Ill, Mass, Ct, Md, NJ, Va Dems (15) are NOT going to support highet taxes on $250-450K -- at some point BenB and the Bond Vultures will turn the screws on T-Bonds -- hopefully before February-- and BarryI won't be able to float $1TRILLION in annual debt to pay for the welfare state, and pray God, the Repubs boycott any debt ceiling increase-- UNLESS the spending is cut dramatically and entitlements reformed. I believe BarryI has grabbed a shite sandwich with both hands-- what will he do? In the past he's petulantly thrown the sandwich away and let someone make a deal. Will he do that again? Who's around?-- Geithner will be gone, Daley's gone, Rahm's gone-- I guess it will be SloJoe again. Yessss!

[NK]

Pagar-- not so easy to get MORE MORE MORE taxes, see my 12:10 comment about high income state Senators.

[matt]

The idiots are now proposing a trillion dollar coin to get around the debt ceiling now. Never was there a better example of the Democrats weaseling their way around both the intent and letter of the law.

They really don't give a shit about the law. Deemed and passed, litigate to legislate, and now this.

[Melinda Romanoff]

If you make the coin out of Polonium, and hand it to iBama. I'm in.

[NK]

[email protected] heh

[Jane: Mock the Media]

What precisely is the problem with a balanced budget Mel and Capn?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Too rigid in terms of constraint, which is a good thing right up until an existential crisis or war.

[pagar]

NK, I'm simply saying that matter how much taxes are raised there will always be leftists saying more, more, more.

[Obvious, except to Progressives.]

Safe, legal, and rare. Who's harmed? Who has benefitted?
============

[hit and run]

Porch:
I think a JOM meetup is very doable if a date/place is chosen well in advance. Ideally somewhere either centrally located or a place where it's fairly easy to book inexpensive plane flights.

Just thinking out loud here...

1) We secretly plan a get together via email, and then just show up unannounced in DC for "Occupy Clarice's".

2) Probably wouldn't work because everyone is too busy during the holidays, but we could hold a special JOM Crashes a 20th Anniversary Celebration in Coronado next New Year's.

3) This is planning way out into the future, but August 2014 we could head to Disney World and celebrate someone's 40th birthday.

4) The geographic center of the contiguous US is near Lebanon, KS. Not an easy place to get in and out of on flights.

5) I'd be happy to invite everyone out to our family's place in Idaho. We'd need to await the release of tour dates to determine if/when The Gourds are playing the Knotty Pine (or will it be the Mangy Moose this year?). Alas, it sure isn't inexpensive to get flights in and out of Jackson Hole, although Idaho Falls is sometimes a viable option.

And finally, my favorite...

5) The Third Annual Hit Hits NorCal event will take place in/near San Francisco at some point this fall. This is an event that went from three people in its first year to seven last year. The best part is, DrJ could community organize everything. Field trips out to see Iggy cut down 200 foot, old-growth redwoods, watching centralcal dodging her boss and customers when Iggy posts fibonacci series during work hours, and a trip up to DrJ's where after a partaking of a glass of Zin from grapes he grew himself, we are treated to a tour of his secret laboratory (in this context, it must be pronounced laBORatory) where he's planning on destroying the world.

What's not to love?

[Jim Miller]

Charles is right in his description of Obama; Clarice is right in her relatively optimistic take on the current situation, and Charles is wrong about that.

House Republicans can win -- long term -- if they "keep calm and carry on". They need to go back to the regular order of business as much as possible, passing appropriations bills and tax bills and then sending them to the Senate.

They should also make their spending arguments more public by regularly passing small bills that kill pork-laden programs. And they should try to find pork backed by Reid and the rest of the Democratic leadership in the Senate for those examples.

(Incidentally, I don't think that Boehner was wrong to try as hard as he did for a "grand bargain", even though I expected his efforts to fail.)

[Captain Hate]

What Mel said, Jane; there are unusual short periods of time (accent on the SHORT) where a country has to throw budgetary constraint to the side. Unfortunately that's become the norm which is why we're having this conversation.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Nader wants iBama to push for a Carbon Tax.

[Melinda Romanoff]

And he's going to stick with Hagel.

[Jane: Mock the Media]

It seems to me you could build in (tough) ways around that.

[AliceH]

Oh, right! And with that balanced-budget Constitutional amendment, we could also impose a requirement that Congress produce an annual budget. That'll fix them.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Self-discipline was supposed to be a feature of Members of Congress, which would obviate that need.

Two steps to do the same thing? Nah.

[Captain Hate]

Porch and I (and probably others) were skeptical about this clown tying himself to the Tea Party: http://www.menrec.com/2013/01/on-dick-armeys-petulant-attacks-on.html?m=1

[derwill]

The Dems will always want to raise taxes, and they will always keep lowering the threshold on what constitutes the "rich", but now that the Bush tax cuts for those below $400-450,000 have been made made permanent and the new slightly higher rate for those above that threshold have also been made permanent, they have no hope of raising them again until they control both bodies of congress and the White House, and by a large enough margin that they can afford defections from those in their party in danger of losing the next election over a "yes" vote on a tax increase.

It was so much easier for them when the tax rates came with an expiration date.

-----

What will minting a trillion dollar coin accomplish, except to underscore that which no one wants to talk about out loud--that it's all pretty much funny money now anyway.

[Manuel Transmission]

Re the BB Amendment, I vaguely recall there was one drafted maybe back in the '90s that specifically allowed for war exceptions.

ISTM that something could be worded that kept the slugs from running up the tab and required 2/3 majority for any exceptions. We have a variation of the in our state constitution for new taxes.

[maryrose]

H&R;
I like your options. Sometimes flights to Sacramento or Reno are cheap. Porch's idea of Minneapolis is close and good for me. Washington is also a good option because of clarice and Janet. Flying to Baltimore is usually reasonable. I would love to help plan this event. Keep me posted.

[Dave (in MA)]

So, to accompany a linked story about Pelosi's office photoshopping a photo representing the gender diversity of Congress, Drudge chose a photo of that lovely flower of femininity from 3rd Connecticut. Heh

[Jane: Mock the Media]

I think you should all come to Sturbridge!