"Gun Violence" And Still More Violence To The Truth At The Times

The NY Times is now fretting that focusing on the link between mental health and gun violence may not be "fair". What is striking is that when the Times opines on "gun violence" and the need for policies including an assault weapons ban and a limit on magazine capacity, they cite 30,000 gun deaths a year; that figure is based on roughly 19,000 firearm suicides and 11,000 firearm homicides.

Yet now, where the topic is mental illness and access to guns, the emphasis is exclusively on homicides; in fact, the word "suicide" does not appear in their article.

Yes, it is a puzzling use of statistics - the link between magazine capacity and suicide is tenuous at best, but one might imagine that the links between mental illness, suicide and access to guns are much stronger.

But its TimesWorld, so there may be a subtle agenda at play, and maybe "gun violence" is not their real concern.

Here we go:

Focus on Mental Health Laws to Curb Violence Is Unfair, Some Say

By ERICA GOODE and JACK HEALY

In their fervor to take action against gun violence after the shooting in Newtown, Conn., a growing number of state and national politicians are promoting a focus on mental illness as a way to help prevent further killings.

Legislation to revise existing mental health laws is under consideration in at least a half-dozen states, including Colorado, Oregon and Ohio. A New York bill requiring mental health practitioners to warn the authorities about potentially dangerous patients was signed into law on Jan. 15. In Washington, President Obama has ordered “a national dialogue” on mental health, and a variety of bills addressing mental health issues are percolating on Capitol Hill.

But critics say that this focus unfairly singles out people with serious mental illness, who studies indicate are involved in only about 4 percent of violent crimes and are 11 or more times as likely than the general population to be the victims of violent crime.

Well, the link between violence and mental illness is not all in your head, as we learn much later in the story:

Most mental health experts agree that the link between mental illness and violence is not imaginary. Studies suggest that people with an untreated severe mental illness are more likely to be violent, especially when drug or alcohol abuse is involved. And many rampage killers have some type of serious mental disorder: James E. Holmes, accused of opening fire in a movie theater in Colorado in July, was seeing a psychiatrist who became alarmed about his behavior; Jared L. Loughner, who killed 6 people and injured 13 others in Arizona, including former Representative Gabrielle Giffords, was severely mentally ill.

But such killings account for only a tiny fraction of gun homicides in the United States, mental health experts point out. Besides the research indicating that little violent crime can be linked to perpetrators who are mentally ill, studies show that those crimes are far more likely to involve battery — punching another person, for example — than weapons, which account for only 2 percent of violent crimes committed by the mentally ill.

Hmm - "such killings account for only a tiny fraction of gun homicides in the United States".  That could be a comment about killings by rifle versus killings by handgun (6,220 by handgun, 323 by rifle, and another 1,587 by "type not stated" in 2011 per the FBI UCR), so why the urgency on banning assault rifles?

Comments

[MarkO]

What is this "New York Times" about which our host seemingly obsesses?

Maybe it is an homage to Groundhog Day?

[MarkO]

Oh, and still first.

I'm going to retire the trophy.

[Cecil Turner]

The NY Times is now fretting that focusing on the link between mental health and gun violence may not be "fair".

There's a shocker. The only possible link between lefty legislation and stopping a future Sandy Hook was the prospect of an improved background check system that restricted gun access by mentally ill people. And now, unsurprisingly, the lefties are pulling support for that part of the legislation.

That leaves us with the parts that abridge lawful gun owners' rights with no plausible link to crime. By all means, "do something now!" Or, better yet, not.

[Captain Hate]

A New York bill requiring mental health practitioners to warn the authorities about potentially dangerous patients was signed into law on Jan. 15.

Am I the only person who's alarmed at the push to increasingly make health care providers agents of the state, particularly on something as ill defined as "potentially dangerous"?

[Clarice]

My arms are too short to blow my head off with a rifle. There oughta be a law.

[Rob Crawford]

CH -- no, you're not.

[narciso]

'peligrosidad' or whatever the Russian word is, what could possibly go wrong;

[NK]

Mental Illness and the NYT-- as a paragon of Liberalism/Leftism, the NYT is a tower of mental illness b/c liberalism IS itself a form mental illness. So this is a very sore subject for NYT writers/editors,as they have to gingerly try to avoid the subject of mental illness and shove it off to the side.

[Cecil Turner]

Am I the only person who's alarmed at the push to increasingly make health care providers agents of the state, particularly on something as ill defined as "potentially dangerous"?

This is clearly not the way to go about it. It seems to me there ought to be a way to track those (on, say, antipsychotic drugs) who obviously should not be purchasing firearms. I can see there are some privacy ramifications, and maybe those aren't worth the tradeoff. But at least it has some chance of heading off a future event we're so anxious to avoid. Limiting magazine capacity (and designating more "gun free" zones) certainly won't.

[Rob Crawford]

The way it works now, there has to be some major action -- involuntary commitment -- to remove your rights. ISTR that involves a court.

I don't have a problem with that, and I don't think the cases we've seen recently invalidate that standard.

The problem is with people DOING SOMETHING. In the Giffords shooting, lots of people knew the guy was insane, but didn't do anything for whatever reason. In the theater shooting the guy was recognized as a danger by his psych, but the report fell into a pile of paperwork.

But, then, in Newtown the best information we have says he snapped when faced with commitment.

Oh, for something like Niven's autodoc that automatically dispenses antipsychotics and can report if you're not taking them...

[James D.]

Cecil, you're right.

But your thought is a fairly straightforward approach that directly relates to the problem it's intended to solve.

Where's the opportunity for graft, or the hiring of countless new Federal bureaucrats, or an increase in the discretionary and unaccountable power of prosecutors and police to be used against citizens who are not "approved of" by the administration in power, in that?

I mean, really, what are you thinking?

[anonamom]

Insty launch!

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice mentioned this Pew Study, with the subhead Majority Now Views Government as Threat to Personal Rights. Pew is very careful to note the majority distrusts the pols rather than the system, as if there is any actual distinction.

Perhaps Pravda on the Hudson took note of the study and determined that an attempt at another abrogation of rights might not be the best move at the moment? If a decent plurality determine a Third Party is feasible then a stumbling block is placed on the path to the Third Way of complete fascism so wholeheartedly embraced by the Sulzbergers.

[Clarice]

Cecil, I posted your comment on FB and lots of people seem to love it as much as I do.

[Rob Crawford]

It is interesting that what they object to in this approach to "gun violence" is the one that focuses "violence" rather than "gun".

[Captain Hate]

I think I've narrated the story of how a friend of mine was detained and put through hell where the burden of proof was on her to prove that she didn't injure her son when horseplay between him and his sister resulted in something major happening by dumb bad luck. All this while dealing with doctors who told her that her son would never walk again, which has already been disproved.

So yeah, I have real problems with this approach.

[Don Surber]

I agree that teh link between mental illness and overall homicides is very weak. However, if we are trying to PREVENT another Virginia Tech, Columbine, Giffords or Newtown we must look at the only two common threads they share: Mental illness and a gun-free zone.

I say we do nothing. The cost of prevention outweighs its benefits

[Captain Hate]

Some crew of dimwits is planning a million muslim march on 9/11. The religion of punks.

[narciso]

What's the old line, 'you don't have to be crazy, but it helps, explains much of the media;

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-01/how-todays-strong-jobs-report-led-115000-job-losses

[Clarice]

Hi, Don! I'm with you/ Maybe we need to start a do nothing party.

[narciso]

Hey, Don, how have you been, miss the site, but not the trolls.

[hit and run]

Howdy, Don.

[Janet]

Remember these -

Dr. Thomas Sowell offers 3 questions that destroy most liberal arguments:
1. Compared to what?
2. At what cost?
3. What hard evidence do you have?

[hit and run]

TM:
"Gun Violence" And Still More Violence To The Truth At The Times

Surber:
However, if we are trying to PREVENT another Virginia Tech

Hmmm. The link between "violence to truth" and Va Tech got me to rememberin'.

"There's also another kind of violence though that we're gonna have to think about. It's not necessarily physical violence but that the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways. Last week, the big news, obviously, had to do with Imus and the verbal violence that was directed at young women"
--stuff Obama said in his speech on the Virginia Tech shootings

Give him credit -- not a single public figure has used the phrase "nappy-headed hos" to perpetrate verbal violence on girls that look like his daughters since Obama gave that speech.

The man gets results.

[ronnor]

"...we must look at the only two common threads they share: Mental illness and a gun-free zone". There is another thread reveled in the FBI statistics that is overlooked on purpose because of the racial implications. 13.1% of the population cause 65% of the murders and 70% of all the crime and if you add in the illegal Mexicans the percentage is higher, whites with highest percentage of population is a low 10%. Most if not all of the 10 city's with the highest murder rate are Democrat controlled and going broke because of criminal activity in Government. Just an observation that doesn't get much consideration because of all the 'very serious' talk about 30 shot magazines. Seems we have a mental health problem with "liberalism".

[Jim Eagle]

cross post:

Chu going Choo-Choo.

Taking the last train out of DC.

Another one bites the dust

/cliche city

[narciso]

His statements are all of that nature;

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/339003/president-obama-commemorates-senseless-holocaust-eliana-johnson#comments

except when it comes to calling Tea Partiers one particular derogatory term, and pressing his surrender demands upon one faction,

[narciso]

This is from the other thread, try to make heads or tails of this, from a challenger to the Wisconsin Supreme Court;

http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/09/18/sticking-it-to-the-constitution/

[sbwaters]

A few days ago someone posted an emailed document that compared Republicans being and Democrats imposing. Can someone help me find the comment thread and link for it. Thnx.

[Ralph Gizzip]

Perhaps we should be looking at legislation addressing mental health and access to word processors?

[NK]

narc@1142-- what a phony law prof. He gives up the game in the penultimate graph.

[narciso]

Yep, Roe vs. Wade, not a reach, Heller, and the Second Amendment, that's just crazy talk.

[Captain Hate]

O/T From watching the trailers of "Bullet to the Head" the title seems to describe how Stallone prepped for the role.

[Peter]

Ed Koch has died. I am sure he regretted endorsing Obama in 2008.

In my humble opinion, he laid the groundwork for Rudy Giuliani to clean up New York by being outspoken to some of the inanities of liberalism. But he never could completely give it up.

[Dave (in MA)]

Today is the first day since 1985 that I didn't have Lurch for a Senator.
I still don't know a damned thing about Mini Me's buddy Mo, but I think Buckley's phone book rule certainly applies here.

[Dave (in MA)]

Oh, and I should have linked Howie Carr's compilation of "Liveshot"'s greatest hits.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/columnists/howie_carr/2013/01/dear_john_it_was_something_you_said

[narciso]

No, Stallone sounds relatively coherent, now you may have a point with Scarborough;

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2013/02/01/hagel-hearing-scarborough-so-contemptuous-ted-cruz-wont-mention-hi#ixzz2JfBM0MMH

[AD-RtR/OS!]

Suicides...with an "assault weapon".
The only way that's practical is if it's a SBC, which can be done with just about anything a cop can confuse for a gun.
Anyway, the suicide rates in America, where guns are plentiful, and in Japan, where guns aren't, are virtually identical - so using suicide as a metric for gun-control is not just unscientific, but non-sensical.
So, we're expending all of this energy arguing about what can we do to cut down (for we can never prevent) 11,000 homicides/year?
Madness!

[Rick Ballard]

Ronnor,

The facts must be written from the victim side, according to the prog template.

The typical victim of gun violence is a young (17-25) black male living in suboptimal circumstances due to racial oppression.

See, that's much nicer than pointing out the fact the typical perpetrator of firearm violence is a black thug taking advantage of restrictions on gun ownership within the confines of his apartheid plantation to secure his tribal territory for the purpose of selling drugs under the eyes of police on the pad.

The saddest point is the young black victim was still much safer prior to being shot than he would have been as a black baby in the womb.

[Jim Eagle]

Isn't the problem the existing HIPPA law? Doesn't that sort of scare the beejeebers out of most medico's to report potential or existing derangemnet? At least that is what retired MD's and Psychiatrists in my little community are saying.

[Captain Hate]

Scarblowhard is just upset that Cruz is yet another male to make Meeka say "Oh God".

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--The way it works now, there has to be some major action -- involuntary commitment -- to remove your rights. ISTR that involves a court.--

The actual question from the 4473;

Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own
affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

A few others'

1.Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
substance?
2.Are you an alien illegally in the United States?
3.Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?

Number 1 reveals why lefties are against gun ownership; about 90% of them are already legally barred from owning one.

Number 2 makes one wonder why lefties think 11 million new potential crazed gun owners will be a good thing for America.

Number 3 was tossed in there solely for TK's benefit. :)

[Captain Hate]

This is what happens when you give an interview after Happy Hour: http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/queen-hillary-raps-benghazi-critics-says-they-dont-live-in-evidence-based-world/

[matt]

The NYT's refusal to acknowledge the role of mental health in mass murder is criminal.

Tucson, Aurora, Columbine, Va Tech, Newtown....all crazies. But no, let's not try to find the root causes and prevent these people from arming themselves.

As to the issue of gun violence, well no one wants to look at the truth.

There was a video going round yesterday of an AA woman who was tasered by a security guard at a mall in Atlanta. If you want to find some root causes, look at the crazy ethos in ghetto culture.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

Interesting poll results on Social Security.
Apparently people are concerned it may go broke because income does not equal outgo for the program.
The poll found that people are willing to pay more in taxes in order to save SS and in return they want more generous benefits when they retire.
Ingenious solution.
Seems to me rse, our math skills have already been rendered null and void in this country.

[submandave]

Q: What does the NYT consider a valid argument against additional legal restrictions on the rights of the mentally ill?

A: "such killings account for only a tiny fraction of gun homicides in the United States"

Q: What does the NYT consider an invalid argument against additional legal restrictions on the rights of all Americans?

A: "such killings account for only a tiny fraction of gun homicides in the United States"

Best example of Double-Speak I've seen so far this year.

[NK]

CH@12:38-- I don't think that was a cocktail hour interview, I think that was one of those sober calculated lies Safire wrote about 17 years ago. They and their Media teamates have flushed down the tubes the fact that she and Barry LIED --LIED quite knowingly and intentionally-- about the video BS-- and have ignored their failure to respond to this Jihadi attack for 5 months.

[Thomas Collins]

Perhaps they think, Ignatz, that the extra SS taxes will generate funds that can be invested at a high yield in that top notch investment vehicle, the Social Security Trust Fund!

[narciso]

Like this example, which was inspired by events in your neck of the woods, matt;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/29/3207239/rick-ross-raps-about-ducking.html

[Chubby]

link on Drudge :

Newtown Calls for Armed School Officers...

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--"Gun Violence" And Still More Violence To The Truth At The Times--

How about a simple ban on "mental illness violence"? Just pass a law saying we won't allow it anymore in this great nation of ours.
They could effectively end mass shootings and suicides simultaneously.
If it saves even one life it's worth it.

[Captain Hate]

The poll found that people are willing to pay more in taxes in order to save SS and in return they want more generous benefits when they retire.
Ingenious solution.
Seems to me rse, our math skills have already been rendered null and void in this country.

Not necessarily if the unstated argument is that they want social security disability payments to stop.

[Rob Crawford]

How about a simple ban on "mental illness violence"? Just pass a law saying we won't allow it anymore in this great nation of ours.

Why allow the suffering that mental illness causes? Pass a law banning it.

[Rick Ballard]

I want a lightning strike rider as well. Over 24K people worldwide are killed by lightning every year - all preventable by the passage of a simple bill.

[AliceH]

Posted by: submandave | February 01, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Perfect.

[Janet]

Here's the video Matt referred to.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--Not necessarily if the unstated argument is that they want social security disability payments to stop.--

I would have to call that assuming a fact not on this planet, CH.

[bgates]

But critics say that this focus unfairly singles out people with serious mental illness, who studies indicate are involved in only about 4 percent of violent crimes and are 11 or more times as likely than the general population to be the victims of violent crime.

You can tell those numbers are legit, even though they're attributed to "studies", because the Times went through some trouble to obfuscate them. Suppose one in a thousand people were seriously mentally ill; it would then be perfectly consistent with the Times' statistics to say that they were the victims in only about 1.1% of violent crimes and are 40 times as likely as the broader population to be, as the Times so delicately puts it, "involved" in some other capacity than victim.

[Dublindave]

30,000 gun deaths a year......Jesus christ.....we need to ban all guns!!!!!!

[Captain Hate]

I would have to call that assuming a fact not on this planet, CH.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm not doubting your comment on the probable math skills and inability to reach a logical conclusion; but I still think some people could've used what I said as a rational conclusion.

[sbwaters]

rse, my wife taught me today that standards and curricula are different. Okay.

So I looked up suggested curricular at EngageNY and found Odell Education's ELA units.

They are selling a Trojan Horse school districts will not see and cannot avoid.

Districts could write their own curricula and buy different texts but that is impractical. So they will buy materials to meet, for instance, teaching "Evidence-based standards" and the text material will be out of context for time and place and push memes that are not in the lessons. They say they are teaching English Language skills but underneath, in the belly of the Trojan Horse, are the unsubstantiated values they favor, couched in rhetoric out of context, and without teaching materials to arm students to defend themselves:

Grade 6: Steve Jobs’ 2005 address
Grade 7: Cesar Chavez’s 1984 address
Grade 8: Ain’t I a Woman?, Sojourner Truth; Equal Rights for Women, Shirley Chisholm; and Wimbledon Has Sent Me a Message: I’m Only a Second-Class Champion, Venus Williams
Grade 9: Plato’s Apology
Grade 10: Nobel speeches of ML King and Obama
Grade 11: W.E.B. Du Bois’ The Souls of Black Folk
Grade 12: Reagan’s First Inaugural and Hillary Clinton’s 2011 APEC Address

Even the second grade lessons on Ancient Greece push platitudes, not understanding that leads to independence.

My wife is correct, that much of the Common Core efforts to improve reading and writing, for instance, are important . . . but I have yet to adequately inoculate the district to see the cost of doing good by doing bad.

[narciso]

Oh, that's a terrible muddle, sbw, mixing apples, bananas and pomegranates.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--I'm not sure what you mean by this.--

What I meant was the majority of respondents who want to "save" social security by raising taxes AND benefits are likely to be precisely those people who would also like to enjoy generous SSDI benefits should they develop a chronically ingrown toenail.

That eliminating the number of illegitimate SSDI cases would not begin to touch the actuarial problems SS faces would probably only be known to the people who understand SS issues well enough to be in the minority of that poll.

[Janet]

Manuel Transmission links this on the last thread. It is wonderful. His Queeg Moment

[Captain Hate]

Ok thanks for the explanation, Iggy.

Btw some of my fellow morons have said that Scottie Centerfold isn't running for Lurch's vacated Senate seat.

[narciso]

So it is said, so what was the point of laying down on the Lurch vote.

OT, I was reading a novel based on Justinian's wife, Theodora, which is more based on Procopius's earlier work mostly,

[Bruce]

I think that it is valid to acknowledge that most gun violence is caused by a small percentage of the population, that they are also the victims of it, and that there is a large racial component to the correlation. BUT, I would step back another step and look at what probably has an even higher correlation, and that is fatherless families. We are now in maybe the 3rd generation of fatherless families, the breakup of which was at least partially caused by the welfare state, and, esp. LBJ's War on Poverty that essentially financially rewarded women for raising children out of wedlock. Throw in the destigmatization of bastardry, and you have a potent mix, where males are raised without fathers to set limits for them and wives and children to force responsibility on them. The result is that they run in juvenile packs, terrorizing (and killing a lot of) their community.

I don't think that the fact that the Black community is the worst in all these respects has anything to do with genetics, and probably most everything to do with the Blacks in this country having at one time been slaves, and then for the next century being under the thumb of Jim Crow, the KKK, (and to take a well earned swipe - the Democratic Party). The slavery, combined with not being immigrants meant that when they were able to compete for jobs, they may have been less aggressive about it than much more recent immigrants. So, I think they went into the 1960s with a higher poverty rate and weaker marriage culture, and that set them up to be the most victimized by LBJ's well intentioned, but inevitably counterproductive, War on Poverty.

Sometime in college (I think freshman year) we read The Negro Family: The Case For National Action (the "Moynihan Report") by JFK/LBJ Assistant Secretary of Labor (and later Senator) Daniel Patrick Moynihan. I go back every decade or so and reread it. And, I marveled in later years how he could defend his votes as a Senator that made the situation worse. Still, if he were back in his role as a sociologist and maybe Labor Dept. honcho, I think that even he would be amazed at how bad the situation that he chronicled almost 50 years ago has become for much of the Black community.

[Dave (in MA)]

RedMassGroup is claiming that Scott Brown is not planning on running for the Kerry seat.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.redmassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=16464

[indianink]

"How about a simple ban on "mental illness violence"? Just pass a law saying we won't allow it anymore in this great nation of ours"

I know let's just make all schools a Mental Illness free Zone....... I mean it works so well with guns.

[pagar]

"Number 1 reveals why lefties are against gun ownership; about 90% of them are already legally barred from owning one."

Should be 100%. Look how many lives could be saved in Chicago alone.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-woman-shot-on-lake-shore-drive-ramp-20130201,0,1471406.story

Want to bet this shooter did not vote right?

[Rob Crawford]

pagar -- funny thing about the Lake Shore Drive shooting story: it's not being counted as a Chicago homicide. Apparently it took place on the highway, so it's outside the city's jurisdiction...

(from Second City Cop)

[rse]

sbw- the official definition of the Common Core standards is "standards are measurable and attainable learning events."

It is not content. Those content standards are just for show and I have the literacy learning progression. It was on a server in New Zealand. The names Fountas & Pinnell and Marie Clay will mean something to her.

That's the model. Of more concern is Courtney Cazden's role in all this as laid out in her book Classroom Discourse as well as James Paul Gee. I wrote about him already. Basically they do not want the kids to know that many words and the complex text in high school will turn reading into a transactional group event of meanings agreed to by consensus.

She and you will definitely want to read my next post which should be up tomorrow. I am just swimming in proof at this point on what is going on.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323701904578274131077220930.html is yesterday's superb Henninger column that talks about Herbert Marcuse. And in the swamps I have been in recently he is still much admired.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--BUT, I would step back another step and look at what probably has an even higher correlation, and that is fatherless families......I don't think that the fact that the Black community is the worst in all these respects has anything to do with genetics, and probably most everything to do with the Blacks in this country having at one time been slaves, and then for the next century being under the thumb of Jim Crow, the KKK, (and to take a well earned swipe - the Democratic Party).--

I wish that were true Bruce, but taking a stroll through UN data on worldwide homicide rates reveals a distressing correlation between black populations and high homicide rates worldwide, whether from different areas of Africa or the Caribbean.
No doubt those other factors you cite contribute, but there is a very disturbing correlation that needs to be recognized.

[SDN]

"It seems to me there ought to be a way to track those (on, say, antipsychotic drugs) who obviously should not be purchasing firearms."

Cecil, have you ever been prescribed Chantix to quit smoking? or Xanax to help you lose weight? Congratulations, you're now in the database to track those on anti-psychotic drugs. Aren't you happy now?

[Bruce]

I find it interesting that for awhile, we were allowed to discuss the fact that so many of the recent mass shootings were done by the mentally imbalanced, who shouldn't have guns, and shouldn't be able to buy them already. Can't, of course, discuss why they are on the streets in the first place, because that would not be sensitive to them and their civil rights. Now, apparently, that window is closing.

Still, this did get the "national debate" about gun grabbing moving in the desired direction, but I can't help thinking that locking up the insane might be more effective, and, really more in keeping with the original meaning of the Constitution, than DiFi's legislation aimed at disarming the sane and law abiding.

Still, the big elephant in the tent, that so grossly distorts the gun death statistics is that most of the guns that cause most of the gun deaths are illegally in the hands of the shooters. Either, they are stolen and/or were bought or transferred illegally. Of course, that means that any gun control legislation is only going to really affect the law abiding, which people are not if they shoot someone else except in self-defense or the like. The theory behind this, to the extent that there is one, is that disarming the law abiding will ultimately (over the next century?) dry up the supply of firearms available to the criminals. This, of course ignores the 300+ million guns already in this country, and the ease of smuggling firearms, and, esp. handguns.

Nevertheless, we the real reason that this is not discussed is the racial angle. A black male is many times more likely to illegally shoot a handgun at someone else, and their victims are most likely to be other blacks. If these shootings are removed from the national statistics, and maybe those by Hispanics, then our non-suicide gun deaths don't look all that bad in comparison to less well armed European and English speaking countries. But, of course, we can't look at the racial and socioeconomic correlations behind our gun violence, because that would be racist (and judgmental against the fatherless), which would be the height of political incorrectness.

[matt]

Bruce;

Moynihan was crucified for that report, and the fatherless family issue has now become one of the primary causes of our dysfunctional society today. The evidence that a strong nuclear family results in a better outcome for the children is overwhelming, but no, we can't judge that.

When 20%+ of the country's prison population has been diagnosed mentally ill, I would tell the Times to go F themselves with their phony statistics. There is a portion of the population with mental illness that should not only never be allowed near firearms, but also sharp objects as well. They are a danger to both themselves and others.

Let's throw in the homeless issue as well while we're at it. A majority of the chronically homeless also fall into the category of the mentally ill.

The magical realism of the Left in this country is astounding.

[sbwaters]

Ooh! I like that!

"Magical realism of the left."

[Cecil Turner]

I mean, really, what are you thinking?

Good point. Here I was trying to apply common sense to a government program . . . clearly faulty.

I say we do nothing. The cost of prevention outweighs its benefits

Concur, Don. But if the current groundswell of political fervor (never let a crisis go to waste) insists on action (now!), then at least we ought to be able to insist that it relate to preventing a recurrence of the event in question. And I think that's a defensible position, even amongst the palace puzzleteers.

Cecil, have you ever been prescribed Chantix to quit smoking? or Xanax to help you lose weight?

Nope. But I might be receptive to the argument that people quitting smoking ought not be buying a firearm (I know a couple people who . . . let's not go there). In any event, it's a reasonably objective and accessible metric that makes some sense. (And you could always make exceptions or remove folks from the DB after some time period.)

I'm not wedded to the idea, but at least it seems to me such an approach might be workable. Having health care professionals report (which some would almost certainly have moral qualms about) a judgment would [almost?] certainly not work.

[Bruce]

Matt - no disagreements from me, and a lot of agreement with your first paragraph. My theory is that the reason that we especially cannot talk about it is that the biggest problem with fatherless families is in the lower economic black community, and, yes, that is where the worst violence is, and the most victims of that violence. It is the intersection of the two that makes this discussion so far out of bounds.

[carol]

Funny how crazy the world has gotten since they started pushing psychotropic drugs for everything under the sun.

No, actually it's not funny.

[pagar]

Rob, I want to thank you.

http://www.secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

is an interesting blog. I had had never seen before.

[Porchlight]

If I were a mental health care provider, I would be concerned that:

1) a dangerously mentally ill patient would stop treatment altogether if he/she became afraid of being reported by me, and/or

2) My office would be their first stop if I reported them.

That's aside from confidentiality concerns.

This is beyond stupid.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--In any event, it's a reasonably objective and accessible metric that makes some sense.--

At first blush it does, but it suffers from the "if it only saves one life" logic which usually ends up costing lives and liberty.

There are literally millions and millions of people who have or are currently being treated with anti psychotics and are otherwise free to buy and own guns and constitute no more and often less danger than the many millions who aren't on anti-psychotics.
Would banning those millions from protecting themselves and their loved ones in the hopes of preventing crimes by the tiny handful on those drugs who use guns in crimes really produce a net positive?
I doubt it, quite a lot.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

I would add that most of these mass killers suffer not from psychoses but from personality disorders and psychopathy which are not traditionally treated with anti psychotics because they are not an effective treatment for those mental illnesses.

[mojo]

Well, yannow, people rarely use more than 7 rounds when committing suicide with a pistol.

[Porchlight]

I don't get the logic of any of this. Banning guns doesn't work - criminals get them anyway. The same logic applies to those who are deemed mentally unfit (for whatever reason) to own guns. Should they decide they want to shoot up a classroom full of kids, that ban is not going to stop them any more than will the "Gun Free Zone" sign on the school fence. Sandy Hook is proof of this, is it not?

[cathyf]

The poll found that people are willing to pay more in taxes in order to save SS and in return they want more generous benefits when they retire. Ingenious solution.

Seems to me rse, our math skills have already been rendered null and void in this country.

Well it all depends on what "more generous" is relative to. If it means "more generous than current programs" that is totally different from "more generous than plain-old zero" which is what young people who've thought about it generally assume that they are going to get from social security.

The article is fairly badly constructed, and you can't really tell how badly constructed the poll was from the article. When discussing the polls that birthers like to use to claim broad support for their position, DoT points out that it is possible to think that Obama is hiding something without necessarily thinking it has anything to do with his birth. I'll likewise claim that if you DO understand math, it is obvious that in order to pay for the debt that we've taken on funding the high-living retirements of people in DoT's generation AND ALSO to have even the smallest safety net welfare program for a few of the most desperately poor elderly of our generation, we are going to have to pay a lot more than DoT's generation paid.

[AliceH]

I wish I could write comments with the clarity and perspicacity of cathyf... It's one gem after another.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--Well it all depends on what "more generous" is relative to.--

After your post cathy, I took the plunge and skimmed through the actual survey and am inclined to retract my previous statement.
At no point that I saw in the survey were any solutions proposed other than raising taxes and increasing benefits. I doubt the poll contains a single useful datum.

The questions were mind numbingly biased;

I don’t mind paying Social Security taxes because it provides security
and stability to millions of retired Americans, disabled individuals, and
the children and widowed spouses of deceased workers.

Or;

I don’t mind paying Social Security taxes because I know
I would have to help support my parents, grandparents, or
other family members if they did not receive Social Security.

GIGO

[Neo]

“Nothing we’re going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to a thousand a year from what we’re at now,” Biden said, according to a Politico report.

[Jim Eagle]

Barney the First Dog has died. RIP you little mutt.

[matt]

he committed suicide using an automatic assault weapon with a high capacity clip magazine, I heard.

Living with the Obama's was too much for the poor beast.

[matt]

wrong dog. rip Barney.

[Jim Eagle]

Bo is stil alive thanks to a special dispensation by the death panel.

[Forrest]

It's the New York Times" for crying out loud! Does anyone really expect a shred of journalism from these lefty democrat whores?

[glasater]

The medical profession has been involved with "squealing" on their patients for quite awhile.

For example, doctors have turned in names of people they treat for incorrigible alcoholism to state's DOT to have their driver's license taken away so they cannot kill someone while behind the wheel of a car.

[Patriot4Freedom]

Posted by: sbw | February 01, 2013 at 11:43 AM -
A few days ago someone posted an emailed document that compared Republicans being and Democrats imposing. Can someone help me find the comment thread and link for it. Thnx.

sbw - Pretty sure this post is what you were referring to. I loved it too:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saw this on facebook, sorry if it has been posted before...

Which side of the fence?

If you ever wondered which side of the fence you sit on, this is a great test!

If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.
If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a Republican is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a Democrat is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

If a Republican is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a Democrat is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a Republican is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
A Democrat wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Republican doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Democrats demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a Republican is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A Democrat non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Republican decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A Democrat demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a Republican reads this, he'll forward it so his friends can have a good laugh.
A Democrat will delete it because he's "offended".

Jeff Foxworthy

Posted by: JerryRigged | January 29, 2013 at 10:46 PM

JOM page at LUN

[Patriot4Freedom]

This isn't about saving innocent lives . . . It's all about GUN CONTROL !
If Obama really cared about saving "just one life", how come he hasn't done anything to reduce these causes of death in the U.S. ? From the CDC website -

All injury deaths • Number of deaths: 180,811
All poisoning deaths • Number of deaths: 42,917
Motor vehicle deaths • Number of deaths: 33,687
Unintentional fall deaths • Number of deaths: 26,009

YES, you read that right, 26,000 people died in the U.S. from accidental falls in 2011 per the CDC's statistics.

Since the Sandy Hook shooting, some 3,300 people have accidentally died from unintentional falls.

I'm telling you, there is a critical need to BAN WALKING without the use of a cane or walker, immediately !

CDC stats at LUN

[Cecil Turner]

There are literally millions and millions of people who have or are currently being treated with anti psychotics and are otherwise free to buy and own guns and constitute no more and often less danger than the many millions who aren't on anti-psychotics.

Not sure I agree with that, nor the logic behind it. There are millions of former felons in this country, many thousands of people either convicted of domestic violence or with a TRO, and we generally don't worry about their right to bear arms. (Nor do I believe we should.) I also doubt the "no more danger" assertion.

The vast majority of people in this country don't fall into any of the above categories, and aren't taking antipsychotics. Again, I'm not wedded to the metric, but neither am I convinced that it's necessarily an unreasonable infringement on gun rights.

I think you're probably right on the "net positive," at least as far as such a broad-brush approach would work. But I suspect a database could be constructed that would produce a net positive, and that such could be implemented, if we were so inclined. (It'd make a lot more sense than banning barrel shrouds, though that's admittedly a low bar.)