Unpersuasive And Unnecessary Hyperbole

John Rosenberg of PJ Media makes some reasonable points about the problems with a limitation on high capacity magazines but overreaches with distracting hyperbole:

Plausible, or Propaganda? The ‘High-Capacity Magazine’ Argument

What appears to be the gun-control crowd's most winnable argument is as irrational as the rest.

As irrational as the rest? Really? As irrational as the idea that bayonet lugs and a grenade launcher mount are dangerous features meriting regulation on an "assault rifle"? I don't think so, and as a matter of rhetoric it is not persuasive to lead with a comparison that promptly breaks upon reflection.

Mr. Rosenberg makes some unassailable points about the practical difficulties in legislating and enforcing a Constitutionally acceptable a ban on high capacity magazines, but "ineffective" is not synonomous with "irrational". A ban on bayonet lugs, effective or not, won't make anyone safer. A ban on high capacity magzaines may not be Constitutional and may not be enforceable, but even Mr. Rosenberg concedes that a higher capacity magazine makes a gun more effective for home defenders or the police. That leaves him with the unconvincing position that a high capaicty magazine increases the defensive value of the gun but doesn't increase its offensive value.

He makes a stab at squaring this circle:

These restrictions would have marginal effect on a determined would-be mass shooter, since he could prepare in advance by carrying multiple smaller magazines on his belt, in sports vest pockets, etc. and train himself to exchange them quickly. The civilian defender against an attack, on the other hand, is not going to be so attired and likely will have only what ammo is with his defensive firearm when he grabs it. Magazine size restrictions, therefore, would disproportionately hinder defense relative to attack, shifting the balance of power towards the criminal.

In a home defense context the defender has ample opportunity to prepare. In a street setting, there is not a lot of concealed carrying of rifles; carrying a spare handgun clip or two will just have to be part of the drill for people worried that they will turn the corner and find themselves at the OK Corrall. I have seen lists of defensive handgun use by civilians but I am not familiar with a story where ten in the magazine would have been insufficient.

The gun people have better arguments than the Bloomberg/Feinstein/Biden side of the national discussion, but we don't help ourselves by pretending that high capacity magazines only make a gun more dangerous when it is wielded by a good guy.

The Gabby Gifford case is constantly cited as the example of a "stop to reload" opportunity for the good guys to rally, and Mr. Rosenberg presents the possibility that something else was happening. Well, then, let's flash back to 1993 and the Colin Ferguson killings on the Long Island Rail Road. From the NY Times:

The three could not have known it, but the police said later that a canvas bag Mr. Ferguson had brought along with him carried 100 more rounds of ammunition that he would likely have continued pumping into the crowd had it not been for the quick reaction of the three men who restrained him.

The men had watched fellow passengers fall forward with head and neck wounds, and sprinted for the end of the train the first time the gunman had reloaded his 9-millimeter Ruger. The second time he stopped to reload, they decided to charge him. Mark McEntee, another Garden City commuter, sprang forward with them.

Mr. O'Connor said the three pushed the gunman down across a seat. "Kevin got on top of him. I grabbed his right arm, and the other gentleman grabbed his left arm," he said.

I don't know how gentle they were, but they were men.

If I were political advisor to the NRA (and survived the shock) I would say that this magazine issue is fraught. The "common sense" of folks like Obama who know nothing about guns tells them all sorts of things that make no sense, but when it tells them that a gun with rapid access to more bullets is more dangerous, their common sense is on to something. My Official Editorial position for some time has been that a limit on magazines is not enforceable, may not be Constitutional, and is mostly a feel-good measure in terms of actual impact on our safety, but there is nothing crazy about wanting to feel good, and it has a tiny chance of doing some good.

And to be fair, shooters like Holmes at Aurora or Lanza in Connecticut were not going to go to a black market dealer or some local gun thug to score a few high capacity magazines; they were crazy, but not that crazy. Their planning seems to have been to quietly amass their weapons without attracting attention.

Drug gangs and the like will get the weapons they want, ban or no. But that is not the target audience for a magazine ban.

Comments

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

OT: Cross post from other thread.

Anyone know if PUK had any thoughts on Thatcher and her time as PM?

[Rob Crawford]

As irrational as the rest? Really?

Yes. They're all irrational.

What makes a "bayonet lug" so dangerous? And a "grenade launcher mount" is useless without a grenade launcher and the grenades for it -- items that fall under the 1930's era NFA and require massive fees, permission of local law enforcement, and opening yourself to periodic (no warrant needed) searches by the BATFEIEIO.

And that's just to get permission to BUY them. Then you have to find them...

there is nothing crazy about wanting to feel good, and it has a tiny chance of doing some good.

Utter crap. It has NO chance of doing any good. Do you think a lunatic who spends YEARS planning his gotterdamerung, as happened with Newtown, won't get what the weapons he wants the same way drug gangs get theirs?

Liberalized concealed carry -- or open carry -- has more chance of doing some good, and infringes on no one's rights.

[henry]

But that is not the target audience for a magazine ban.

Law abiding citizens are the target here.

In a home defense context the defender has ample opportunity to prepare.

Right, home invaders always call for an appointment first.

What is very unhelpful is searching for rationality where there is only an emotional appeal to increase government power.

[James D.]

"There's nothing crazy about wanting to feel good." I agree with that.

But there is a LOT crazy about passing complex, restrictive, unconstitutional, unenforceable laws guaranteed to have unintended consequences, to feel good.

[Rob Crawford]

BTW -- there's no Constitutional right to "feel good".

[Rick Ballard]

Henry,

Mrs. Richard C. Blum saw the immediate aftermath of the termination with prejudice of George Moscone and Harvey Milk. As a committed member of the oligarchy, her fear is arguably justifiable. It would be surprising if the lawlessness exhibited by the upper trash was not emulated by the population as a whole and even more surprising if violent reprisal against connected thieves such as Don Corzione do not become more commonplace.

Will the assassinations of prosecutors by 211 Crew be emulated by the Mexican Mafia? What type of contracts will our modern condottieri accept?

Mrs. Blum's gut spasms in the United States Senate are completely understandable if the possibility of a just reward increases.

[matt]

Okay, so Hollywood has a large percentage of the dope smokers and muddle mainlining on zombie movies and vampires and werewolves and aliens and evil super villains (well, we do have Kim Jong Un - "f*#k you, Hans Brix!).

Does one really think a .223 will take down a zombie or an alien wearing super duper armor?

I am worried that we need to defend ourselves against those threats. They're going to take some real hardware to kill.

Maybe this is the way we have to phrase the argument.

[Captain Hate]

These points are all moot until we hear what emerges from the damaged brain of Saint Gabby and the oxygen starved grey matter of her former astronaut husband.

[daddy]

I suppose it's already been mentioned somewhere in the threads this morning, but no harm done by congratulating Clarice on this mornings Instalance.

Well deserved, Clarice! You got a "Yep."

[bgates]

"ineffective" is not synonomous with "irrational"

You're saying that it's not necessarily irrational to pass legislation that can't possibly attain its stated objective?

[lyle]

Is Toomey about to cave on "reasonable, common sense" gun control? I thought he was a Tea Party fave.

[jimmyk]

Anyone know if PUK had any thoughts on Thatcher and her time as PM?

No doubt, but in any case, I suspect the two of them are having a beer with Reagan now, so to speak.

[jimmyk]

Here's one from PUK:

"It's as if Thatcher had never existed." [DoT]

For British feminists,she didn't.Mention Margaret Thatcher and there is an instant replay of the bedroom scene from "The Exorcist". I think most of them would like a female Prime Minister, as long as it isn't another woman.

Not sure if this works:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2008/02/she-comes-to-bu.html?cid=101807954#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e200e5504e71cc8834

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--A ban on high capacity magzaines may not be Constitutional and may not be enforceable, but even Mr. Rosenberg concedes that a higher capacity magazine makes a gun more effective for home defenders or the police. That leaves him with the unconvincing position that a high capaicty magazine increases the defensive value of the gun but doesn't increase its offensive value.-

Perhaps his argument is that law abiding people will be the ones who will tend to lose their high capacity defensive magazines while lawbreakers will continue to obtain and use offensive high capacity mags.
Seen in that light, which is the light of the real world, his argument is convincing and rational.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--A ban on high capacity magzaines may not be Constitutional and may not be enforceable, but even Mr. Rosenberg concedes that a higher capacity magazine makes a gun more effective for home defenders or the police. That leaves him with the unconvincing position that a high capaicty magazine increases the defensive value of the gun but doesn't increase its offensive value.-

Perhaps his argument is that law abiding people will be the ones who will tend to lose their high capacity defensive magazines while lawbreakers will continue to obtain and use offensive high capacity mags.
Seen in that light, which is the light of the real world, his argument is convincing and rational.

[Captain Hate]

I thought he was a Tea Party fave.

That doesn't guarantee anything; see Centerfold, Scotty and Scott, Rick.

[Captain Hate]

I thought he was a Tea Party fave.

That doesn't guarantee anything; see Centerfold, Scotty and Scott, Rick.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--A ban on high capacity magzaines may not be Constitutional and may not be enforceable, but even Mr. Rosenberg concedes that a higher capacity magazine makes a gun more effective for home defenders or the police. That leaves him with the unconvincing position that a high capaicty magazine increases the defensive value of the gun but doesn't increase its offensive value.-

Perhaps his argument is that law abiding people will be the ones who will tend to lose their high capacity defensive magazines while lawbreakers will continue to obtain and use offensive high capacity mags.
Seen in that light, which is the light of the real world, his argument is convincing and rational.

[Captain Hate]

I thought he was a Tea Party fave.

That doesn't guarantee anything; see Centerfold, Scotty and Scott, Rick.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[Captain Hate]

Sorry for the double post but I got a strange message indicating nothing had happened.

[matt]

mel, rick B, NK;

the LUN should be especially interesting to you. Local Chinese government debt may be double what the government reports.

[Captain Hate]

Hmmmm, this software seems to have achieved new levels of dysfunctionality

[henry]

Intersting, high capacity commenting on automatic.

[Danube of Thought]

My favorite Thatcher clip (it may already have been posted).

[Danube of Thought]

My favorite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8clip (may already have been posted).

[Danube of Thought]

there is nothing crazy about wanting to feel good

Bring back cocaine.

[Captain Hate]

I didn't realize that McRINO was on SeeBS yesterday with Schooooomer; the competition for camera time between those two egomaniacs must have been brutal.

[Danube of Thought]

there is nothing crazy about wanting to feel good

Bring back cocaine.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

DoT,

I posted that back a few threads this morning. Prescient wasn't she. The other PUK link to the JOM thread on Hillary was a hoot. No PUK though but lots of old hands like anduril, maybee and appalled moderate now just appalled.

henry, LOL at your 2:34

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

DoT,

I posted that back a few threads this morning. Prescient wasn't she. The other PUK link to the JOM thread on Hillary was a hoot. No PUK though but lots of old hands like anduril, maybee and appalled moderate now just appalled.

henry, LOL at your 2:34

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

problem commenting on wordpress

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

Heh, you get the error message but it still posts.

Is this a feature or benefit?

[Thomas Collins]

Testing.

[Thomas Collins]

Testing.

[cathyf]

Test?

[Gus]

henry, this is the LIBRARD amazon, conveyor belt. War on women was so YESTERDAY, Teh Gay Marriage is Last night. Guns and wild eyed crazed TEA BAGGERS are TODAY!!!!!!!!

This is the Obama 24/7/365 campaign against the GOP. Brought to you by NBC, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, the AP etc etc etc.

Meanwhile Coca-cola has a polar bear on their cans and bottles.

[Gus]

henry, this is the LIBRARD amazon, conveyor belt. War on women was so YESTERDAY, Teh Gay Marriage is Last night. Guns and wild eyed crazed TEA BAGGERS are TODAY!!!!!!!!

This is the Obama 24/7/365 campaign against the GOP. Brought to you by NBC, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, the AP etc etc etc.

Meanwhile Coca-cola has a polar bear on their cans and bottles.

[Rob Crawford]

Echo!

[NK]

I said in an earlier comment that my only interest (principled or practical) is that the result be that it enhances of keeping the House and Senate out of Dem hands 2015. Given that objective, IMO the best play at this point for conservatives is to agree to expand background checks to most of the 10-20% not covered, (but still exempt family transfers and loans), in exchange the law is clarified to relieve legal gun owners from unnecessary hassles/delays they now suffer-- then pass that in the House and Senate. Let the Dems have their Senate vote (after a Cruz/Paul filibuster info mercial about liberty) on assault weapons and magazines AND LOSE in the Senate. I think this is the best play because it keeps the faith with law abiding gun owners who go through background checks now-- and it drives a wedge between the Dems and a major support group of their's-- the gun grabbers. Indeed, Obummer may veto something like this b/c of the damage it would do with the gungrabbers.

[NK]

I said in an earlier comment that my only interest (principled or practical) is that the result be that it enhances of keeping the House and Senate out of Dem hands 2015. Given that objective, IMO the best play at this point for conservatives is to agree to expand background checks to most of the 10-20% not covered, (but still exempt family transfers and loans), in exchange the law is clarified to relieve legal gun owners from unnecessary hassles/delays they now suffer-- then pass that in the House and Senate. Let the Dems have their Senate vote (after a Cruz/Paul filibuster info mercial about liberty) on assault weapons and magazines AND LOSE in the Senate. I think this is the best play because it keeps the faith with law abiding gun owners who go through background checks now-- and it drives a wedge between the Dems and a major support group of their's-- the gun grabbers. Indeed, Obummer may veto something like this b/c of the damage it would do with the gungrabbers.

[NK]

I said in an earlier comment that my only interest (principled or practical) is that the result be that it enhances of keeping the House and Senate out of Dem hands 2015. Given that objective, IMO the best play at this point for conservatives is to agree to expand background checks to most of the 10-20% not covered, (but still exempt family transfers and loans), in exchange the law is clarified to relieve legal gun owners from unnecessary hassles/delays they now suffer-- then pass that in the House and Senate. Let the Dems have their Senate vote (after a Cruz/Paul filibuster info mercial about liberty) on assault weapons and magazines AND LOSE in the Senate. I think this is the best play because it keeps the faith with law abiding gun owners who go through background checks now-- and it drives a wedge between the Dems and a major support group of their's-- the gun grabbers. Indeed, Obummer may veto something like this b/c of the damage it would do with the gungrabbers.

[NK]

Test.....

[NK]

test...

[NK]

epic software fail...

[Frau Examen verpasst?]

From out on the sinister coast:
Did I miss the test?

[Frau Examen verpasst?]

From out on the sinister coast:
Did I miss the test?

[Frau Examen verpasst?]

From the sinister coast:

Did I miss the test?

[Frau Examen verpasst?]

From out on the sinister coast:
Did I miss the test?

[narciso]

Well they aren't taking any chances;

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/04/05/firearms-company-relocating-to-north-texas/

[Gus]

Nk the irony. "Say something once, why say it again?"

Guess the song!!

[narciso]

Well they aren't taking any chances;

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/04/05/firearms-company-relocating-to-north-texas/

[narciso]

Well they aren't taking any chances;

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/04/05/firearms-company-relocating-to-north-texas/

[narciso]

Well they aren't taking any chances;

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/04/05/firearms-company-relocating-to-north-texas/

[daddy]

BTW,

We had 12 inches new snow over the weekend and are standing by to get an extra 18 inches today. This winter is lasting forever:(

[Frau Durchgefallen]

From out on the sinister coast:
Did I fail the test?

[maryrose]

It's the stuttering thread.

[maryrose]

It's the stuttering thread.

[maryrose]

It's the stuttering thread.It won't let me post this.

[maryrose]

It's the stuttering thread.It won't let me post this.

[matt]

sorry all. I got the weirdest error message when I was trying to post that comment.

[matt]

sorry all. I got the weirdest error message when I was trying to post that comment.

can't locate user object_log_something

[NK]

Song? no idea

[hit and run]

SixApart announced today a 231% rise in blog commenting activity. "We are pleased with the tremendous growth we are seeing, indicative of our strong technology and brand resonating with the online community", said HAL, senior vice president of programming at Typepad, the blog platform arm of SixApart.

[Jack is Back (Again)!]

All its a word press glitch. You can still post just hit okay on the popup. No need for dupes.

[Thomas Collins]

I was testing whether I can post. A message error notice I've never seen before comes up when I try to post, but the post goes through. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not one of those corrupt teachers calling a meeting to figure out how to help students cheat on the standardized tests! :-))

[Thomas Collins]

I was testing whether I can post. A message error notice I've never seen before comes up when I try to post, but the post goes through. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not one of those corrupt teachers calling a meeting to figure out how to help students cheat on the standardized tests! :-))

[Thomas Collins]

I was testing whether I can post. A message error notice I've never seen before comes up when I try to post, but the post goes through. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not one of those corrupt teachers calling a meeting to figure out how to help students cheat on the standardized tests! :-))

[Agent J]

HIT if you post everything 4 or 5 times..Yes your commenting activity will grow..:-)

[Richard Campbell]

Gus, it's Psychokiller, by Talking Heads, ca. 1977. I wonder how many times this will post?

[Richard Campbell]

Gus, it's Psychokiller, by Talking Heads, ca. 1977. I wonder how many times this will post?

[NK]

Hit and AgentJ comments-- Heh!

[Thomas Collins]

Sorry, all. After I hit post, my pre-post is still in the pre-post box, so I think the post hasn't happened.

[Richard Campbell]

Gus, it's "Psychokiller," by Talking Heads, ca. 1977. Had to think for a minute, though.

[Richard Campbell]

Gus, it's "Psychokiller," by Talking Heads, ca. 1977. Had to think for a minute, though.

[henry]

Hit, when seeing double (or more), does TCFAB apply? Or does TCFAB need to be doubled (or so) to match?

[daddy]

Re: The imminent bankruptcy of the publicly funded Electric Car company Fisker.

I know 2 Chinese outfits are trying to buy the company at penny's on the dollar, but the idea that makes me chuckle is some American entrepreneur wanting to buy the collapsing company so that he can stick in fuel burning Corvette Engines into the Fisker auto-body.

It would be comical if our $192 Million in Taxpayer funding of that idiotic Green Project actually wound up producing gas-guzzlin' sports cars.

And Lou Dobbs had an interesting comment on Megyn's Show today.

He said he keeps hearing about the Government picking Winners and Losers. Well he says he has asked the Treasury and Energy Departments to please advise him on the "Winners", because his research has been unable to find a single "Winner" picked by the DOE. He says losers are all over the place, but not a single winner he can find.

[cathyf]

Test?

[Dave (in MA)]

No multi post here.

[cathyf]

Well one way to look on the bright side... You know how you type in the most brilliant blog comment EVAH!!!11! and hit preview, and then post. You don't notice the captcha appearing at the bottom and think that it posted. Later you reload the page, and the (pending) comment is gone forever.

A couple of days ago I posted the most brilliant health-care reform plan and lost the comment just that way. Too bad for the human race and everything...

[Dave (in MA)]

What makes a "bayonet lug" so dangerous?

Did F&F weapons have 'em?

[cathyf]

Well one way to look on the bright side... You know how you type in the most brilliant blog comment EVAH!!!11! and hit preview, and then post. You don't notice the captcha appearing at the bottom and think that it posted. Later you reload the page, and the (pending) comment is gone forever.

A couple of days ago I posted the most brilliant health-care reform plan and lost the comment just that way. Too bad for the human race and everything...

[cathyf]

Well one way to look on the bright side... You know how you type in the most brilliant blog comment EVAH!!!11! and hit preview, and then post. You don't notice the captcha appearing at the bottom and think that it posted. Later you reload the page, and the (pending) comment is gone forever.

A couple of days ago I posted the most brilliant health-care reform plan and lost the comment just that way. Too bad for the human race and everything...

[daddy]

Thanks DoT for that marvelous clip of Maggie Thatcher at 02:39.

Can't wait to se the clip at 02:40!

[cathyf]

There does seem to be a fairly hefty wait between when a post gets made and when it appears. So waiting for a few more copies to appear...

[sailor]

I love reading the multiple entries!! Fun, fun.

[sailor]

I love reading the multiple entries!! Fun, fun.

[sailor]

I love reading the multiple entries!! Fun, fun.

[sailor]

I love reading the multiple entries!! Fun, fun.

[NK]

Another US Diplo murdered over the weekend--what is John Effin' Kerry and Obummer doing about it? 2 Diplos murdered in 6 months -- 2 were murdered during Bush's 8 years, before that was Buckley in lebanon in 1984, before that 2 during Carter's term. What are we doing about the murder of our Diplos by Jihadists during the past 6 months?

[daddy]

So you're 02:40 was the same clip as at your 02:39.

No big deal. It was worth watching twice, and worth commenting on 3 or 4 or, with what the hell's going on with Typepad today, maybe even 5 times.

[NK]

daddy -- Megan Mccardle tried to do a VC analyisis of 'Green' investments last week in Atlantic. She tried to put a good face on things, but the Green Dollars were crony payoffs- not investments.

[James D.]

Hit, did Vice President HAL's statement also mention their exciting plans for the Alpha Echo Three Five unit, or that they continue to have the greatest possible enthusiasm for their mission?

[daddy]

This headline in todays ADN startled me:

PETA apologizes to Iditarod musher over dog death accusation

Wow!. That'd be a first.

But then when you go to the story, down in Paragraph 4 you get "the rest of the story."

Drobny's attorney threatened to sue if PETA didn't retract its original accusation, and the organization did so Friday.

Please bgates, please become our ADN editor.

[Gus]

With a bar of Arab Spring in your hand it's thowing a grenade in Arab land.

Nk, we are doing NOTHING. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!!!?!!!?? Remember???

The reason libs aren't upset at Obama-Rodham-Kerry's incompetence, is that LIBTARDS don't know what competence looks like.

[Typer]

This is hi cap.

They're also autonomous and talk to each other.

http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/04/08/heres_lockheeds_brand_new_stealth_drone_design