Fox News in Cinncinnati delves into the IRS chain of command.
Comments
From the link:
What this means for you... consider this chain of command since the story broke.
Former Acting IRS Commissioner Steven Miller… retires
Joseph Grant, Commissioner of Tax Exempt and Government Entities... retires.
Lois Lerner, Head of Exempt Organization…says she will invoke her 5th amendment right to not incriminate herself when called before Congress on Wednesday.
Holly Paz, Director of Exempt Organizations, subpoenaed to Washington to be interviewed by members of Congress.
All of this IRS leadership, in Washington D.C.
Then one level down is Cindy Thomas, the highest ranking employee in Cincinnati in this Tax Exempt and Government Entities Department that no one in Congress is talking to... yet.
I don't think the Cincinnati group should have to take the fall for Ms Lerner, or Mr. Miller or WH people who knew and said nothing. Also who authorized the no speak order after the initial investigation was completed in May 2012?'
Oh um First!
I am seeing on Twitter that Issa will call Lerner before the committee again. Seems Trey Gowdy was right, when she gave opening statement she waived her 5th Amendment rights.
I posted this in the previous thread, but it seems like a bigger deal than Cindy Thomas. (From the NR)
"Officials in the Technical Unit of the IRS’s Rulings and Agreements office [in D.C.] played an integral role in determining how the targeted applications were treated, provided general guidelines to Cincinnati case workers, briefed other agency employees on the status of the special cases, and reviewed all those intrusive requests demanding “more information” from tea-party groups."
With no records or notes from all these WH meetings and visits, too bad we can't put Barry (or who from the WH was at the meetings) and the visitors in separate rooms and ask each: "What exactly was discussed in these meetings?" and see if they can get their stories straight.
Europe has never recovered from what began in 1914. i have spent a lot of time mulling over all this and what created the mindset.
i am not being melodramatic that grounding what Rick now calls Commie Core in implementing Hegel's vision for change is adopting theories yet again that have taken many lives. The compass is gone and so is the knowledge of the past that aids in seeing what are likely consequences.
I think I told the story of the politico at my table when I went to hear Bruce Katz from Brookings speak. He laughed at my concern since he said most people are clueless whatever the economy is and there's always a market for people who can piece together what they were never told.
I just see what we are losing and it really is what generates prosperity and we are cultivating weeds in its place.
So the day before the targeting began the president meets with the head of the IRS union. And during the IG investigation the union rep is at 36 of 41 meetings. So now we can figure out where the push back came from.
The other thing we have learned with the Paz mess... the IG doesn't know how to conduct and audit or an investigation.
Even Cummings was amazed that Paz was negotiated to be allowed in the room during all of the questioning to refresh errr... coach the people being questioned.
Schulman just iterated that the IRS is a part of the executive and not a quasi independent division of the government as the executive head asserts, too.
Dumber than dirt all of them - as far as being able to keep their covers in place.
BTW did you catch the idiot congresswoman from California concerned about clawback of tax deductable donations for donors to these non-tax deductible soliciting organizations... should they be proven to not deserve c4 status.
Issa tried to school her but she was clueless.
The dem thrust in these meetings seems to be that the tax law is too complex and the poor IRS needs to have them simplified so we need to get rid of these statuses so that people can't come together to petition the government for redress and must act individually as groups are not persons even if the idiot Supreme Court said they were.
The "Cincinnati group" are suitable grist for the mill unless "just following orders" is acceptable as a defense. We're trotting towards the point where a determination of allegiance to the Republic and resolution of obeying lawful orders which conflict with an oath many of us have taken to defend the Constitution are going to have to be examined very carefully.
I find the Tea Party to be loyal to the Republic and its members to be defenders of the Constitution. I'm perfectly content to be declared an enemy of a deeply corrupt state and I have absolutely no concern whatsoever for any minion of the state who is completely crushed for abusing my rights as a citizen.
Steph, that is DEFINITELY one of the lib "talking points" on this topic--
I have heard numerous leftie "journalists" (NPR, MSNBC, NYT)
try to spin it that way since Sunday, when Pfieffer was shopping that out.
Isaac and Howdy just nailed her ass to the wall to wit you can't provide some defense to the subject matter via assertions and then hide behind the fifth. Isaac therefore recessed the hearing instead of adjusting it.
The other thing we learned from today's hearings...
Lerner is a lawyer and probably representative of the stupendous intelligence of lawyers in government most everywhere. So good in fact, she gets a subpoena compelling her testimony.
She may intend to go the "martyr to the GOP" route and schedule a meeting with Holder to compare contempt citations. He prepped her way with his remarks to Issa last week.
Lawless scum can be difficult to deal with when the DoJ is completely corrupt and completely political.
It was very important, Jane. They will catch up soon.
The problem for Lerner is that not only did she offer the opening statement, she also partially testified on the topic of the hearing.
She answered questions before invoking. Toast.
Seems the juice box strategy in collusion with ValJar et. al. concocted yesterday at lunch of calling for her head on a platter (since she can't be fired as a union hack) and forcing her into a resignation because she dared to invoke the 5th is dust in the wind.
Stephanie:
great post. I think Ms Lerner wanted it on the record that she felt she did nothing wrong. I remember when Beth somebody took the Fifth at the Marc Rich pardon hearing. Holder was part of that scam also going around the rules of the usual route to obtain a pardon. Clinton gave it. All Beth did was reply "I take the Fifth amendment" when asked a question at the hearing. I don't believe a statement was given.
The union connection is the lynchpin to the WH. It is why the IRS will not give up the records between the WH and the IRS. They were due in Congress for the committee yesterday. Funny how if we are late filing taxes, penalties must be paid. IRS is late with subpoened materials. What punishment is in store for them?
who's going to charge her with contempt?Holder who ignored the contempt of Congress charge against him? Issa may have pulled a fast one in that he asked her if she wanted to state anything before the questioning began. she said no and then gave her prepared statement. He says he gave her the opportunity to take the Fifth--and she passed on it when she turned down the offer..
Wonder how high the bidding is going to go with her minions... first one to testify and implicate Lerner gets full immunity. Or do they pressure Lerner to turn on Paz? or vice versa?
I was never government grade employee material. I still have every email from jobs I held in the 1990s. Hopefully someone somewhere is as diligent as I.
Asscovering 101. Parse every request in writing so that you have a paper trail when idiots try to claim they weren't given exactly what they requested. Prodigious note taking (and keeping) also helps.
Got a rep for it too and the BS 'that isn't what I asked for' quickly stopped. Funny how that works.
So Lerner (screwing up what her lawyer told her to do) is exhibit A for the caliber of employee at the IRS and George (allowed an audit questioning session of employees to include direct reports) is exhibit B for the caliber of employee in the IGs office.
I feel so much better that Obamacare has sufficient safeguards and oversight provisions, don't you?
Stephanie:
E-mails can be deadly. I used to delete my regularly so no paper trail was visible. I used to be shocked by what people would write in an e-mail. Talk about putting yourself and your job at risk. I used to calmly try to tell fellow teachers. "You can't put that sort of comment in an e-mail that so many people can see." Parents would have a fit if they saw that.
I have a feeling when this is all over no one will be farther away from the Obamacare fiasco than the IRS. There is no way anyone is going to fund an additional group of clueless people to enforce who buys insurance.
Obamacare-the trainwreck.
lol, Stephanie! Years ago, I worked in a very stressful environment, a lot of backstabbing and jealousy among the professionals who would try to use me in their little power plays. I started keeping an "evidence drawer" (comprised of exactly the type of items you described) and announced periodically that I was maintaining it regularly.
Amazing how I was suddenly no longer drawn into any of the beefs and squabbles.
Uh-- unless you are the administrator of your own server, there is no such thing as 'deleting' emails.
Obamacare-- as of FY 2013 -- it is fully funded and staffed. All those dweebs at IRS and HHS are in place destroying the job and health insurance markets.
"To guard against distorted testimony, courts have held that you can’t selectively invoke the privilege by picking and choosing the details that you disclose.
But it’s never been clearly articulated exactly what constitutes a waiver of privileges in this situation, Andrew D. Leipold, a professor of criminal procedure at the University of Illinois College of Law, told Law Blog.
The same issue came up in 2002, when Bernard Ebbers, the former chief executive of WorldCom, rankled members of the House Financial Services Committee when he asserted his Fifth Amendment rights after declaring himself innocent of criminal conduct and defending his role at the company in brief prepared remarks. He was never charged with contempt of Congress."
Earlier today Rush was grousing about Issa not knowing how to handle Lerner taking the fifth, but backed off a little bit when he discovered that Issa had conferred with counsel about whether or not Lerner waived her privilege with her opening monologue. I thought at the time Rush was probably giving Issa too little credit. If that Twitter report centralcal mentioned is true, I thought correctly.
Assuming Lerner sat and delivered against the advice of counsel, I'll repeat something I wrote in an earlier thread: After hubris, Nemesis.
NK:
I didn't realize that the Republican House who holds the purse strings had signed off on those additional 15000 IRS agents.Did I miss something? I thought defunding it was one of our stategies?
This just keeps getting more outrageous! I just got a text from a constituent, and apparently the government welfare phones are sending texts to kill my amendment! This is what they say: "Save Lifeline! Call Sen Landrieu at 202-224-3121. Due to Sen Vitter program is in jeopard
I don't want her to get immunity - because she will simply take the rap and retire spend the rest of her life on the boards of "charities" and Fannie Mae.
Obamacare is fully funded by the last federal budget (FY'10) adopted by the Dem Congress-- since then, the "CRs" adopted continued all previously approved spending 'cept for the $80+B sequester-- NO Obamacare was Sequestered. Obamacare is fully funded and in place, UNTIL a new budget defunding it is adopted by the Congress and signed by the POTUS. Holding the House and winning the Senate in 2014 (even with RINOs) is vital to defunding Obamacare. It's fully funded until that happens.
"Show Hearings" were the Dem Party specialities from Kefauver up until SloJo Biden's TV lynching of Clarence Thomas. Iran Contra being the show trials that blew up in the Dem's faces most spectacularly like a trick cigar, (that's why Walsh went after the Weinbergers and others so despicably.) The Repub Whitewater show hearings were far more substantive-- especially regarding the FBI files where Dem Congressman Lantos suggested that a Hillary! lackey kill himself for unlawfully copying files. The Ken Starr Report hearings were of course the most amusing, laying out all of Clinton's lies for the world to see, but we had Nasdaq $7000 so who cared!!
I believe a proffer of immunity in exchange for testimony generally (aside from Oliver North) involves rather detailed admissions by the culpable party.
I also believe we should be looking at this as theater and consider the 5th ploy to be a response to Boehner's "Who's going to jail?". I note the current headline in the memeorandum box is "Issa - Lerner gave up her rights", which will become "Issa Destroys Lerner's Constitutional Rights" with just a light massage by propagandists.
What does Lerner have to fear from a corrupt DoJ lead by a POSAG with his very own contempt of Congress citation?
The Senate Dems screwed up prosecutions by Independent Counsel Walsh by granting 'partial immunity' to IranContra witnesses. walsh's indictments were dismissed because of the immunity priviliges the Dems granted. In Whitewater-- Starr persuaded the Congress not to grant immunity, so his prosecutions stuck and LOTs of Clintonites went to jail, and of course Big Bill was Impeached and made a plea deal wih Starr's successor admitting to lying to the Court-- on top of paying off the plaintiff. Same thing with Fitzgerald and Libby. So If the Special Counsel and Congress are smart-- show hearings and the Executive Power of a Special Counsel puts people in jail. "No go" my ass.
Oh, Boy, pangs of nostalgia in the swamp of Old DC. Today I saw a well coiffed and dress lady bureaucrat who would never be kicked out of a Georgetown cocktail party take the 5th. She is a typical Washington DINK and probably flys high in the right neighborhoods especially if her hubby is a K street lawyer hosting fund raisers.
Bad move because she won't get the kind of sympathetic consideration some low level guy or gal following orders would have got.
The only thing I am nervous about is the way the Dems on Issa's committee are backing him up and being as outraged as the Republicans. This seems a quantum leap in bipartinship. Does this mean the WH has a nefarious plan to spring a surprise on Issa while he is blindsided by his opposites? I don't trust the Dems and this makes me very skeptical as to were this is going.
Ex-- very fair point-- he made her appear, he's put her at risk of a House Contempt resolution, the Special Prosecutor will be on her old Dem Ass to give up WH bigshots, and she'l have no immunity defense. Very well done by Issa/Gowdy.
JiB-- the House Dems want a special Prosecutor asap, so they don't have to talk about this in 2014. So they talk outrage to put pressure for a SP. That will only happen after Holder resigns.
"target Rich" heh-- a troll with a sense of humor. The Legacy Media were just as much in the tank for Slick Willie as they are for JEf (less religious devotion than they have to JEF, but just as much in the tank). As the Whitewater/Monica stuff came out, the LM filled the airwaves and print with "VAST RIGHTWING CONSPIRACY", "shadowy publishing forces at AmSpec and WSJ" making up stories, "right wing paranoia" same shite as now different decade. Starr had to fight through dozens of Clinton invocations of Exec Priv, and Starr won EVERY case-- it was a target rich environment because Slick Willy was a liar and associated with criminals, he was rightly impeached and had to cut a plea deal in the end. My only dissapointment-- Starr never indicted Hillary! over the billing records and FBI files. He had probable cause to indict her, but he didn't think he could win conviction in DC Dist Ct, so he refrained from indicting under DOJ guidelines. Pity-- that old cow should have been indicted.
David French at The Corner writes abouted being audited after he & his wife adopted a child:
IRS Morality: Defend Planned Parenthood, Deluge Adoptive Families with Audits
...As we get word that the IRS has harassed a number of pro-life groups...In 2012, the IRS requested additional information from 90 percent of returns claiming the adoption tax credit and went on to actually audit 69 percent.
LUN
Prosecutor Going After FOX News is Big Obama Donor
Just in case you wanted to know what Lanny davis thinks.
Hannity had a good radio segment with Jay Sekelow and Lanny Davis.
Hannity played excellent clips of Testimony and Carney and taking The Fifth etc.
Lanny Davis was very critical of "the handling" of all these scandals by everyone in the Administration. "Yes" it was outrageous on it's face; "Yes" it appeared unexplainable, etc, but he always had a "but", and the "but" throughout his comments was that "Eric Holder is a very honest man" and and he (Lanny Davis) has "complete confidence" in Eric Holder being able to do an honest investigation of all these scandals to get to the truth without us having to go the extreme route of calling for a Special prosecutor.
So according to Lanny it all just looks bad because it is being handled so poorly as a publicity issue by the White House, "but" overall there is no there there.
Even when I was in DC, Doug McElway was a journo you could trust. He was the congressional correspondent on WTOP 1550 which isn't there anymore. Also the great classical music station, can't remember its name, and the guy Dennis? who did the morning show. It was the number one radio show in DC.
James Rosen is going nowhere, he is reporting on Bret Baier. Good for him. The way you win in the DC world is fight, fight, fight. Look to Ollie North, James and be determined that your rights are more damn important than their responsibilities.
From the link:
Hope Issa is on it.
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 02:57 PM
I don't think the Cincinnati group should have to take the fall for Ms Lerner, or Mr. Miller or WH people who knew and said nothing. Also who authorized the no speak order after the initial investigation was completed in May 2012?'
Oh um First!
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 02:59 PM
I am seeing on Twitter that Issa will call Lerner before the committee again. Seems Trey Gowdy was right, when she gave opening statement she waived her 5th Amendment rights.
Posted by: centralcal | May 22, 2013 at 03:00 PM
So, they were leaving some things out with the squirrel!
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/05/22/house-oversight-e-mails-irs-ig-report-was-originally-supposed-to-be-released-last-september/
Posted by: narciso | May 22, 2013 at 03:00 PM
Jane:
So we just found out a union person was in 36 of 44 meetings with the IG because of "collective bargaining".
Is anyone else listening. Did I get it right?
Me:
You got it right. Paz was the chick. She's also one of the ones in and out of the WH visitor logs.
Interesting innit?
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:01 PM
Sorry,not first.
Three cheers for Trey Gowdy. He seems to be the only one who knows the law. Love it!
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 03:01 PM
I posted this in the previous thread, but it seems like a bigger deal than Cindy Thomas. (From the NR)
"Officials in the Technical Unit of the IRS’s Rulings and Agreements office [in D.C.] played an integral role in determining how the targeted applications were treated, provided general guidelines to Cincinnati case workers, briefed other agency employees on the status of the special cases, and reviewed all those intrusive requests demanding “more information” from tea-party groups."
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/348983/oversight-washington-all-along-eliana-johnson
Posted by: jimmyk | May 22, 2013 at 03:01 PM
I thought Lerner's lawyer was supposed to be top flight? This is odd.
Can't wait to see what Ms. Paz has to say. Per Jane and Stephanie in the previous thread, she was in and out of the WH quite a bit.
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 03:02 PM
With no records or notes from all these WH meetings and visits, too bad we can't put Barry (or who from the WH was at the meetings) and the visitors in separate rooms and ask each: "What exactly was discussed in these meetings?" and see if they can get their stories straight.
Posted by: jimmyk | May 22, 2013 at 03:04 PM
Porch-
Europe has never recovered from what began in 1914. i have spent a lot of time mulling over all this and what created the mindset.
i am not being melodramatic that grounding what Rick now calls Commie Core in implementing Hegel's vision for change is adopting theories yet again that have taken many lives. The compass is gone and so is the knowledge of the past that aids in seeing what are likely consequences.
I think I told the story of the politico at my table when I went to hear Bruce Katz from Brookings speak. He laughed at my concern since he said most people are clueless whatever the economy is and there's always a market for people who can piece together what they were never told.
I just see what we are losing and it really is what generates prosperity and we are cultivating weeds in its place.
Replacing boxwoods with kudzu.
Posted by: rse | May 22, 2013 at 03:04 PM
Sounds like the IRS has one of those lone wolf problems.
Posted by: bgates | May 22, 2013 at 03:05 PM
So the day before the targeting began the president meets with the head of the IRS union. And during the IG investigation the union rep is at 36 of 41 meetings. So now we can figure out where the push back came from.
Posted by: Jane | May 22, 2013 at 03:06 PM
Schulman just testified that he does not know what "Tea" in Tea Party means.
Paz was deposed and said she sat in on all of the interviews, but I left after the end of the interviews so they could ask questions.
Paz can't remember if she or Lois Lerner requested that she be at all the interviews.
Posted by: Jane | May 22, 2013 at 03:08 PM
A brilliant lawyer is worthless if the client is too smug to follow the advice.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 03:09 PM
The other thing we have learned with the Paz mess... the IG doesn't know how to conduct and audit or an investigation.
Even Cummings was amazed that Paz was negotiated to be allowed in the room during all of the questioning to refresh errr... coach the people being questioned.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:12 PM
I wonder if by now Schulman is wishing he lawyered up?
NK, is Schulman your friend or was it Miller?
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 03:13 PM
Schulman just iterated that the IRS is a part of the executive and not a quasi independent division of the government as the executive head asserts, too.
Dumber than dirt all of them - as far as being able to keep their covers in place.
BTW did you catch the idiot congresswoman from California concerned about clawback of tax deductable donations for donors to these non-tax deductible soliciting organizations... should they be proven to not deserve c4 status.
Issa tried to school her but she was clueless.
The dem thrust in these meetings seems to be that the tax law is too complex and the poor IRS needs to have them simplified so we need to get rid of these statuses so that people can't come together to petition the government for redress and must act individually as groups are not persons even if the idiot Supreme Court said they were.
TAR. FEATHERS.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:19 PM
Holly Paz:
Cute as a wink:)
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 03:22 PM
Maryrose,
The "Cincinnati group" are suitable grist for the mill unless "just following orders" is acceptable as a defense. We're trotting towards the point where a determination of allegiance to the Republic and resolution of obeying lawful orders which conflict with an oath many of us have taken to defend the Constitution are going to have to be examined very carefully.
I find the Tea Party to be loyal to the Republic and its members to be defenders of the Constitution. I'm perfectly content to be declared an enemy of a deeply corrupt state and I have absolutely no concern whatsoever for any minion of the state who is completely crushed for abusing my rights as a citizen.
Posted by: Account Deleted | May 22, 2013 at 03:22 PM
It sounded like it never occurred to George that the union wasn't his friend. No wonder he dated Michelle. He's dumb as a post.
My internet feed has gone down. Is the hearing still on?
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 03:24 PM
By which the Democrats mean complete state ownership of everything not in their off-shore bank accounts.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 03:25 PM
Steph, that is DEFINITELY one of the lib "talking points" on this topic--
I have heard numerous leftie "journalists" (NPR, MSNBC, NYT)
try to spin it that way since Sunday, when Pfieffer was shopping that out.
The real problem---too complex a regulation.
No, you idiots---it's government tyranny!
Posted by: anonamom | May 22, 2013 at 03:26 PM
Here it comes. Lerner is toast.
Isaac and Howdy just nailed her ass to the wall to wit you can't provide some defense to the subject matter via assertions and then hide behind the fifth. Isaac therefore recessed the hearing instead of adjusting it.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:31 PM
A brilliant lawyer is worthless if the client is too smug to follow the advice.
But surely she didn't make that statement against the advice of her lawyer? I don't know what to think.
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 03:31 PM
Issa "recessed" the hearing instead of "adjourning" it.
He did this to make the possible reappearance of Lerner part of the same hearing.
Posted by: Threadkiller | May 22, 2013 at 03:32 PM
Issac? stupid auto correct. ISSA.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:32 PM
The other thing we learned from today's hearings...
Lerner is a lawyer and probably representative of the stupendous intelligence of lawyers in government most everywhere. So good in fact, she gets a subpoena compelling her testimony.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:35 PM
If the "opening statement" invalidates her invocation of the 5th, either her lawyer wasn't that sharp or she ignored his advice.
I guess there's the possibility that the lawyer isn't working in her best interests, but that seems a bit too tinfoilish for me.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 03:38 PM
No one on Twitter is talking about the Union connection. Did I misunderstand? I thought that was the most important thing to come out today.
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 03:43 PM
She may intend to go the "martyr to the GOP" route and schedule a meeting with Holder to compare contempt citations. He prepped her way with his remarks to Issa last week.
Lawless scum can be difficult to deal with when the DoJ is completely corrupt and completely political.
Posted by: Account Deleted | May 22, 2013 at 03:46 PM
It was very important, Jane. They will catch up soon.
The problem for Lerner is that not only did she offer the opening statement, she also partially testified on the topic of the hearing.
She answered questions before invoking. Toast.
Seems the juice box strategy in collusion with ValJar et. al. concocted yesterday at lunch of calling for her head on a platter (since she can't be fired as a union hack) and forcing her into a resignation because she dared to invoke the 5th is dust in the wind.
I'd suggest she stop for a 5th on the way home...
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 03:49 PM
Stephanie:
great post. I think Ms Lerner wanted it on the record that she felt she did nothing wrong. I remember when Beth somebody took the Fifth at the Marc Rich pardon hearing. Holder was part of that scam also going around the rules of the usual route to obtain a pardon. Clinton gave it. All Beth did was reply "I take the Fifth amendment" when asked a question at the hearing. I don't believe a statement was given.
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 03:51 PM
Lerner has a history of targeting religious organizations.
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 03:53 PM
The union connection is the lynchpin to the WH. It is why the IRS will not give up the records between the WH and the IRS. They were due in Congress for the committee yesterday. Funny how if we are late filing taxes, penalties must be paid. IRS is late with subpoened materials. What punishment is in store for them?
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 03:56 PM
who's going to charge her with contempt?Holder who ignored the contempt of Congress charge against him? Issa may have pulled a fast one in that he asked her if she wanted to state anything before the questioning began. she said no and then gave her prepared statement. He says he gave her the opportunity to take the Fifth--and she passed on it when she turned down the offer..
Posted by: Clarice | May 22, 2013 at 03:56 PM
When asked Schulman said he "went to law school" which means ignorance is a good excuse considering what that school produced.
In the end, Jim Jordan nailed George's ass to the wall. He had a free ride until then and was mumbling afterwards. Great theater.
This is going all the way up the conspiracy elevator to you know where.
Why would cute little Holly Paz have to visit the WH?
Posted by: Jack of the Loony Fringe! | May 22, 2013 at 03:59 PM
I thought that too Clarice at the time and then Issa backed off.
When do the hearings resume?
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 04:00 PM
Wonder how high the bidding is going to go with her minions... first one to testify and implicate Lerner gets full immunity. Or do they pressure Lerner to turn on Paz? or vice versa?
I was never government grade employee material. I still have every email from jobs I held in the 1990s. Hopefully someone somewhere is as diligent as I.
Asscovering 101. Parse every request in writing so that you have a paper trail when idiots try to claim they weren't given exactly what they requested. Prodigious note taking (and keeping) also helps.
Got a rep for it too and the BS 'that isn't what I asked for' quickly stopped. Funny how that works.
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 04:07 PM
So Lerner (screwing up what her lawyer told her to do) is exhibit A for the caliber of employee at the IRS and George (allowed an audit questioning session of employees to include direct reports) is exhibit B for the caliber of employee in the IGs office.
I feel so much better that Obamacare has sufficient safeguards and oversight provisions, don't you?
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 04:16 PM
Stephanie:
E-mails can be deadly. I used to delete my regularly so no paper trail was visible. I used to be shocked by what people would write in an e-mail. Talk about putting yourself and your job at risk. I used to calmly try to tell fellow teachers. "You can't put that sort of comment in an e-mail that so many people can see." Parents would have a fit if they saw that.
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 04:17 PM
I have a feeling when this is all over no one will be farther away from the Obamacare fiasco than the IRS. There is no way anyone is going to fund an additional group of clueless people to enforce who buys insurance.
Obamacare-the trainwreck.
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 04:20 PM
From the story Jane linked about Lerner's anti-religious bigotry:
WTF? How could this ever be considered a valid question?!
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 04:20 PM
lol, Stephanie! Years ago, I worked in a very stressful environment, a lot of backstabbing and jealousy among the professionals who would try to use me in their little power plays. I started keeping an "evidence drawer" (comprised of exactly the type of items you described) and announced periodically that I was maintaining it regularly.
Amazing how I was suddenly no longer drawn into any of the beefs and squabbles.
Posted by: centralcal | May 22, 2013 at 04:20 PM
a
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 04:21 PM
I am so greatful for the young guns. Without Gowdy, Chavetz, Cruz and Paul this would all be over.
We need more please.
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 04:22 PM
Uh-- unless you are the administrator of your own server, there is no such thing as 'deleting' emails.
Obamacare-- as of FY 2013 -- it is fully funded and staffed. All those dweebs at IRS and HHS are in place destroying the job and health insurance markets.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 04:23 PM
"To guard against distorted testimony, courts have held that you can’t selectively invoke the privilege by picking and choosing the details that you disclose.
But it’s never been clearly articulated exactly what constitutes a waiver of privileges in this situation, Andrew D. Leipold, a professor of criminal procedure at the University of Illinois College of Law, told Law Blog.
The same issue came up in 2002, when Bernard Ebbers, the former chief executive of WorldCom, rankled members of the House Financial Services Committee when he asserted his Fifth Amendment rights after declaring himself innocent of criminal conduct and defending his role at the company in brief prepared remarks. He was never charged with contempt of Congress."
LUN
Posted by: C.R. | May 22, 2013 at 04:23 PM
See LUN for an article in which it is argued that Lerner did not waive the Fifth by her opening statement.
Posted by: Thomas Collins | May 22, 2013 at 04:24 PM
True, NK. Deleting emails does nothing. They are still hanging out on the server waiting to be retrieved when someone wants them.
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 04:26 PM
Not buying it.
In fact, I think Lerner should be subject to the same rules the IRS pursues people under. Namely, she's guilty until she proves her innocence.
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 04:27 PM
TC:
Mukasey said on Megan that a "proffer" deal could be offered to Lerner. Also that outright immunity could be given and then she would testify.
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 04:28 PM
I do hope this doesn't turn into a giant argument in the media about Lerner's waiving the 5th (or failure to).
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 04:28 PM
Earlier today Rush was grousing about Issa not knowing how to handle Lerner taking the fifth, but backed off a little bit when he discovered that Issa had conferred with counsel about whether or not Lerner waived her privilege with her opening monologue. I thought at the time Rush was probably giving Issa too little credit. If that Twitter report centralcal mentioned is true, I thought correctly.
Assuming Lerner sat and delivered against the advice of counsel, I'll repeat something I wrote in an earlier thread: After hubris, Nemesis.
Posted by: Trevor Saccucci | May 22, 2013 at 04:29 PM
NK:
I didn't realize that the Republican House who holds the purse strings had signed off on those additional 15000 IRS agents.Did I miss something? I thought defunding it was one of our stategies?
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 04:31 PM
Sorry, in the LUN, something else that wasn't flagged till September
Posted by: narciso | May 22, 2013 at 04:32 PM
Porch:
I think Lerner better start talking fast before some underling gets the immunity deal and she is left out in the cold.
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 04:33 PM
I think so too maryrose. Don't you think they are telling her just that? Maybe Ms. Holly Paz is getting the offer as we speak.
Still want to know what Lerner's lawyer told her to do.
Posted by: Porchlight | May 22, 2013 at 04:38 PM
They are so predictable;
Posted by: narciso | May 22, 2013 at 04:38 PM
I don't want her to get immunity - because she will simply take the rap and retire.
I'm frustrated that nothing ever comes of Congressional hearings.
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 04:41 PM
via FB:
Vitter:
This just keeps getting more outrageous! I just got a text from a constituent, and apparently the government welfare phones are sending texts to kill my amendment! This is what they say: "Save Lifeline! Call Sen Landrieu at 202-224-3121. Due to Sen Vitter program is in jeopard
Posted by: Stephanie | May 22, 2013 at 04:42 PM
FTFY
Posted by: Rob Crawford | May 22, 2013 at 04:45 PM
Well how else to organize the flash mobs;
Posted by: narciso | May 22, 2013 at 04:49 PM
I'm frustrated that nothing ever comes of Congressional hearings.
Same.
Posted by: Janet | May 22, 2013 at 04:52 PM
Obamacare is fully funded by the last federal budget (FY'10) adopted by the Dem Congress-- since then, the "CRs" adopted continued all previously approved spending 'cept for the $80+B sequester-- NO Obamacare was Sequestered. Obamacare is fully funded and in place, UNTIL a new budget defunding it is adopted by the Congress and signed by the POTUS. Holding the House and winning the Senate in 2014 (even with RINOs) is vital to defunding Obamacare. It's fully funded until that happens.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 04:56 PM
I don't want her to get immunity - because she will simply take the rap and retire.
Can immunity be contingent on her implicating others? ISTR that sort of thing on Law & Order-type shows, but I don't remember how it was structured.
Posted by: jimmyk | May 22, 2013 at 04:56 PM
Reporter who questioned Obama on his extravagant vacations and was later audited by IRS (as he revealed on his Facebook page) has now been fired!
Posted by: centralcal | May 22, 2013 at 04:57 PM
"I'm frustrated that nothing ever comes of Congressional hearings."
'Show Hearings' are intended as entertainment, and thereby forms the core benefit.
Posted by: Corn-fed conservative (southern strategy version) | May 22, 2013 at 04:59 PM
So the harrassment continues.
Posted by: Jane - | May 22, 2013 at 04:59 PM
"Show Hearings" were the Dem Party specialities from Kefauver up until SloJo Biden's TV lynching of Clarence Thomas. Iran Contra being the show trials that blew up in the Dem's faces most spectacularly like a trick cigar, (that's why Walsh went after the Weinbergers and others so despicably.) The Repub Whitewater show hearings were far more substantive-- especially regarding the FBI files where Dem Congressman Lantos suggested that a Hillary! lackey kill himself for unlawfully copying files. The Ken Starr Report hearings were of course the most amusing, laying out all of Clinton's lies for the world to see, but we had Nasdaq $7000 so who cared!!
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:07 PM
See? All show, no go.
Posted by: Corn-fed conservative (southern strategy version) | May 22, 2013 at 05:09 PM
NK;
Thank you for the update.So in 2014 with both the Senate and the House in repub hands{pray God} can we begin to defund this monstosity?
Posted by: maryrose | May 22, 2013 at 05:13 PM
jimmyk,
I believe a proffer of immunity in exchange for testimony generally (aside from Oliver North) involves rather detailed admissions by the culpable party.
I also believe we should be looking at this as theater and consider the 5th ploy to be a response to Boehner's "Who's going to jail?". I note the current headline in the memeorandum box is "Issa - Lerner gave up her rights", which will become "Issa Destroys Lerner's Constitutional Rights" with just a light massage by propagandists.
What does Lerner have to fear from a corrupt DoJ lead by a POSAG with his very own contempt of Congress citation?
Posted by: Account Deleted | May 22, 2013 at 05:14 PM
Accidental? Inadvertent? Staff at fault!
@BretBaier
Judge in leak case issues an unusual apology today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/judge-apologizes-for-lack-of-transparency-in-leak-case/2013/05/22/ad769370-c308-11e2-8c3b-0b5e9247e8ca_story.html …
Posted by: centralcal | May 22, 2013 at 05:16 PM
"no go" = Bullshit.
The Senate Dems screwed up prosecutions by Independent Counsel Walsh by granting 'partial immunity' to IranContra witnesses. walsh's indictments were dismissed because of the immunity priviliges the Dems granted. In Whitewater-- Starr persuaded the Congress not to grant immunity, so his prosecutions stuck and LOTs of Clintonites went to jail, and of course Big Bill was Impeached and made a plea deal wih Starr's successor admitting to lying to the Court-- on top of paying off the plaintiff. Same thing with Fitzgerald and Libby. So If the Special Counsel and Congress are smart-- show hearings and the Executive Power of a Special Counsel puts people in jail. "No go" my ass.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:17 PM
Oh, Boy, pangs of nostalgia in the swamp of Old DC. Today I saw a well coiffed and dress lady bureaucrat who would never be kicked out of a Georgetown cocktail party take the 5th. She is a typical Washington DINK and probably flys high in the right neighborhoods especially if her hubby is a K street lawyer hosting fund raisers.
Bad move because she won't get the kind of sympathetic consideration some low level guy or gal following orders would have got.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 05:20 PM
Let's give Issa credit for making her show up to take the 5th in person.
Posted by: Extraneus | May 22, 2013 at 05:26 PM
The only thing I am nervous about is the way the Dems on Issa's committee are backing him up and being as outraged as the Republicans. This seems a quantum leap in bipartinship. Does this mean the WH has a nefarious plan to spring a surprise on Issa while he is blindsided by his opposites? I don't trust the Dems and this makes me very skeptical as to were this is going.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 05:33 PM
Ex-- very fair point-- he made her appear, he's put her at risk of a House Contempt resolution, the Special Prosecutor will be on her old Dem Ass to give up WH bigshots, and she'l have no immunity defense. Very well done by Issa/Gowdy.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:34 PM
Well, that was a target-rich environment, so hitting the broad-side of the barn with a 12-gauge counts as a miss.
Posted by: Corn-fed conservative (southern strategy version) | May 22, 2013 at 05:34 PM
JiB-- the House Dems want a special Prosecutor asap, so they don't have to talk about this in 2014. So they talk outrage to put pressure for a SP. That will only happen after Holder resigns.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:36 PM
Okay this short video is funny!
James Rosen's Office Today
-------
Greta posted on Twitter that FNC staff are all communicating via notes and in the process of learning sign language.
Posted by: centralcal | May 22, 2013 at 05:40 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/05/22/WH-Those-Who-Bring-Up-Admin-Scandals-Might-As-Well-Be-Birthers
If you can read this,
thank a birther.
Posted by: Threadkiller | May 22, 2013 at 05:44 PM
Welcome to Marylandistan
No knives longer than 18 inches allowed.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 05:44 PM
"target Rich" heh-- a troll with a sense of humor. The Legacy Media were just as much in the tank for Slick Willie as they are for JEf (less religious devotion than they have to JEF, but just as much in the tank). As the Whitewater/Monica stuff came out, the LM filled the airwaves and print with "VAST RIGHTWING CONSPIRACY", "shadowy publishing forces at AmSpec and WSJ" making up stories, "right wing paranoia" same shite as now different decade. Starr had to fight through dozens of Clinton invocations of Exec Priv, and Starr won EVERY case-- it was a target rich environment because Slick Willy was a liar and associated with criminals, he was rightly impeached and had to cut a plea deal in the end. My only dissapointment-- Starr never indicted Hillary! over the billing records and FBI files. He had probable cause to indict her, but he didn't think he could win conviction in DC Dist Ct, so he refrained from indicting under DOJ guidelines. Pity-- that old cow should have been indicted.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:47 PM
When does Wilfrid Brimley show up?
Isn't that what we need here?
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 05:48 PM
But remember Chic a Fil, was one step too far;
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3841.htm
Posted by: narciso | May 22, 2013 at 05:50 PM
Fox19 reporter Ben Swann has raised his stock price significantly with his Reality Check Exclusive video that schooled us on the IRS org chart.
I wonder how many other reporters are taking Ayn Rand's advice to look out for number one.
Posted by: Extraneus | May 22, 2013 at 05:50 PM
--Sounds like the IRS has one of those lone wolf problems.--
Sounds like they have a whole pack of them.
Posted by: Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki | May 22, 2013 at 05:52 PM
Or maybe-- the IRS is THE WOLF, and we are the sheep.
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 05:59 PM
David French at The Corner writes abouted being audited after he & his wife adopted a child:
IRS Morality: Defend Planned Parenthood, Deluge Adoptive Families with Audits
...As we get word that the IRS has harassed a number of pro-life groups...In 2012, the IRS requested additional information from 90 percent of returns claiming the adoption tax credit and went on to actually audit 69 percent.
LUN
Posted by: C.R. | May 22, 2013 at 05:59 PM
Jay Carney is 48? Boy, great genes. I guess BS in your DNA is a good thing.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 05:59 PM
Prosecutor Going After FOX News is Big Obama Donor
Just in case you wanted to know what Lanny davis thinks.
Hannity had a good radio segment with Jay Sekelow and Lanny Davis.
Hannity played excellent clips of Testimony and Carney and taking The Fifth etc.
Lanny Davis was very critical of "the handling" of all these scandals by everyone in the Administration. "Yes" it was outrageous on it's face; "Yes" it appeared unexplainable, etc, but he always had a "but", and the "but" throughout his comments was that "Eric Holder is a very honest man" and and he (Lanny Davis) has "complete confidence" in Eric Holder being able to do an honest investigation of all these scandals to get to the truth without us having to go the extreme route of calling for a Special prosecutor.
So according to Lanny it all just looks bad because it is being handled so poorly as a publicity issue by the White House, "but" overall there is no there there.
Posted by: daddy | May 22, 2013 at 06:00 PM
Carney is 48? UNpossible...
Posted by: NK | May 22, 2013 at 06:00 PM
Dem Congressman Jerrold Nadler of New York:
An Executive Branch, and again I don't care who the President is, or when, or which Party, the Executive branch cannot be it's own Judge."
Obviously Jerrold hasn't listened to Lanny davis.
Posted by: daddy | May 22, 2013 at 06:11 PM
Benghazi
AP Wiretapping
IRS
EPA Bias on Fines
NLRB on Boeing
James Rosen
Fast and Furious
Gun Control
Am I missing something?
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 06:12 PM
cc's Greta video at 5:40 featured Doug McKelway. HE was fired from our local station for being hard on Obama!
I had forgotten about that. Here is the piece that got him in trouble. Suspended in July 2010...then fired in Sept..
The Dems weren't taking any guff in 2010.
Posted by: Janet | May 22, 2013 at 06:13 PM
Janet,
Even when I was in DC, Doug McElway was a journo you could trust. He was the congressional correspondent on WTOP 1550 which isn't there anymore. Also the great classical music station, can't remember its name, and the guy Dennis? who did the morning show. It was the number one radio show in DC.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 06:17 PM
Hey,
James Rosen is going nowhere, he is reporting on Bret Baier. Good for him. The way you win in the DC world is fight, fight, fight. Look to Ollie North, James and be determined that your rights are more damn important than their responsibilities.
Posted by: Jack is Back! (Grand Inquisitor) | May 22, 2013 at 06:21 PM
Didn't seem like such a blasphemous report, Janet. Maybe he can make a comeback this year. Lots of opportunity out there for brave reporters.
Posted by: Extraneus | May 22, 2013 at 06:21 PM
OT: Jets draft pick QB Geno Smith picks Jay-Z to represent him. (He had fired his previous agent after falling into the 2nd round.)
Sheesh.
Posted by: Extraneus | May 22, 2013 at 06:26 PM