Zimmerman Trial, Timeswatch: In A Different Courtroom

Ms. Alvarez of the NY Times recounts a dramatic moment from the Zimmerman trial:

Later that afternoon, defense lawyers opened the door for the jury to learn that Mr. Zimmerman had a history of confrontation. Prosecutors told jurors that his former girlfriend was granted a domestic violence restraining order against him and that Mr. Zimmerman had been charged with battery of a law enforcement officer.

But Mr. O’Mara quickly countered that Mr. Zimmerman also was granted a restraining order against his former girlfriend and that those charges were later dismissed. He clarified that the battery charge was reduced and eventually dismissed.

Geez, that was widely unreported. Not to mention wrong. And as my coffee cooled this morning, the Times provided a correction and ruined my 'gotcha':

An earlier version of this article misstated the location of the jury when prosecutors brought up two earlier instances of confrontation involving Mr. Zimmerman. The jury was not in the jury room, not the courtroom.

Well, someone is still reading this stuff. The judge will rule on whether Zimmerman's past behavior was made relevant by the defense questions. Andrew Branca, a defense attorney blogging at Legal Insurrection, has analysis.

 

 

Comments

[Threadkiller]

Threadstarter

[narciso]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, they released the only Benghazi suspect, Al Shibli, just because.

[Captain Hate]

narc, I agree that Charlie's article should be required reading for anybody pontificating on the NSA situation.

[narciso]

I was clarifying another misunderstanding at the Horde.

[narciso]

Well Greenwald's take is always more about obscuring rather then clarifying the facts,

[Captain Hate]

Yes I saw your latest nom de cyberplume @ the ewok's place.

[henry]

No question, ChaCo nailed it. The policy questions left open at the end are what need to be debated.

[Threadkiller]

From ChaCo:

".. ..-. -.– — ..- -.-. .- -. .-. . .- -.. – …. .. … -.– — ..- .- .-. . — .-.. -.."

[Threadkiller]

The witness objects to the defense. "Specultion!"

A slow prosecutor agrees and the judge sustains.

[jwest]

OK, I'm on the right thread now.

[Danube on iPad]

Where is Charlie's article?

[Threadkiller]

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2013/06/27/the-science-of-what-is-and-isnt-happening-with-the-nsas-phone-surveillance/?singlepage=true

[peter]

Carlos Slims' dancing scimuniti can't even make a correction without making another mistake: "not in the jury room, not the courtroom."

[Threadkiller]

The 911 tape that included the unidentified screaming was just played to establish a timeline. The court camera panned to Travon's parents during the playback of the scream portions.

The dad showed no emotion and the mom (I assume it is the mom sitting next to the dad) looked like she was playing with her phone.

If I was forced to listen to my child's death cries 20 feet from the person who took his life, Angry Birds would have to be paused while I strangled the son of a bitch.

They know who owned those screams...

[Danube on iPad]

Another prosecution witness explodes in the face of the prosecution. Amazing.

[AliceH]

I don't understand why Zimmerman's parents aren't permitted to attend. The explanation given is they will be called as witnesses, however in a press conference yesterday, the Martin's attorney said Martin's parents wouldn't answer press questions because THEY will be witnesses.

Both can't be true.

[Rob Crawford]

AliceH -- as I understand it, the immediate relatives of the "victim" are allowed into the court even if they're going to be called as witnesses. Since the state's theory is that St. Skittles was the "victim", his parents get to twiddle with their smartphones in full view of the jury.

(If I were a juror, I'd consider their inattention damning. But that's likely why I'll never be on a jury.)

[Jane]

"If I was forced to listen to my child's death cries 20 feet from the person who took his life, Angry Birds would have to be paused while I strangled the son of a bitch."

Priceless - altho I suspect it was Candy Crush.

[bgates]

Mr. Zimmerman had been charged with battery of a law enforcement officer.

What race was the law enforcement officer? How are we supposed to know which side to take if we don't know whether that person was as white and prone to acting stupidly as a white Cambridge cop, or as black as Obama's son or brother?

[Rob Crawford]

bgates -- apparently it was an ATF "officer". Explains the result, too.

[caro]

LOL, Jane, I was going to say the same thing. It was Candy Crush.

[Extraneus]

Candy Crush

Is that the new thing? Don't tell my wife.

[Fiddler on the hoof]

Other than a nice metaphor using shredded bearer-bonds, not much new there. But thanks anyway.

[Ranger]

Looks like quite a few LIVs will be in for a shock next year:

In U.S., 43% of Uninsured Unaware They Must Get Coverage

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163280/uninsured-unaware-coverage.aspx

Of course, for most of them, the real shock will come around April of 2015, when they lose a chunk of their tax refund thanks to Obamacare (and then a bigger chunk in April 2016).

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next couple of cycles.

[Account Deleted]

It's awfully sporting of BDLR to call a witness to describe Martin's savage beating of Zimmerman in decent (for the lighting) detail. He must really have some sort of bombshell hidden away to overcome the reasonable doubt all his eye and ear witnesses are establishing.

[maryrose]

Prosecution is dying in their false attempt to make this a second degree murder case. So instead they try to get Zimmerman on dropped charges and stuff from the past. This is pathetic even by Florida standards.
DrK is excellent on why Bammy can't be bothered with Snowden.

[boris]

Perhaps BDLR is going to claim Z should have taken his well deserved beating like a man and lost any right to self defence when Z started the altercation by getting out of his truck.

[Porchlight]

Ranger, good to see you.

I have a feeling the tax penalty will end up being waived for people under a certain income level, which probably includes a great deal of the uninsured.

The admin never cared about enforcing the penalty anyway, and only the 43% and the insurance companies are hurt anyway, so why not buy some more votes?

[Ranger]

And how do you feel about the Federal Government "randomly" choosing you to trawl through your financial records for the last 10 years?

Judicial Watch: FOIA release shows CFPB conducting “warrantless surveillance” on consumers

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/28/judicial-watch-foia-release-shows-cfpb-conducting-warrantless-surveillance-on-consumers/

The panel shall include 5 million consumers, and joint borrowers, co-signers, and authorized users. The initial panel shall contain 10 years of historical data on a quarterly basis. The initial sample shall be drawn from current records and historical data appended for that sample as well as additional samples during the intervening years to make the combines sample representative at each point in time.

Once again, it looks like we had to pass the bill to find out what was in it:

“The Bureau’s existing data-gathering activities are authorized by the Dodd-Frank Act,” a CFPB spokesperson told U.S. News.

Welcome to Obama's America, where everything you do can be turned over to the government without you even knowing about it.

[Porchlight]

Sorry, make that 53%.

[Porchlight]

Sorry, should be 53%, not 43%. Typepad may eat this comment again..

[Porchlight]

ugh

[Ignatz]

What's interesting to watch is the left, with the exception of a few like Dana and Greenwald, close ranks around a guy who very clearly has done and is doing far worse than anything they accused Bush of.
It's reminiscent of the pathetic Bolsheviks pledging allegiance to Stalin even as he's coercing confessions out of them and exiling them to the Gulag in his 30s show trials .

Being a True Believer means the object of your affections never has to say he's sorry.

[Threadkiller]

Would Aaron Hernandez be considered a "White-Hispanic"?

[maryrose]

Jane :
I agree with you. It is payback time for Obama against all the imagined abuse he took growing up. Moochelle as well. The first time she was proud of Anerica was when her erstwhile husband won the nomination. These two are deplorable, people, From the Pigford reparations to the non-prosecution of the Black Panthers to spying on regular Americans and having the power to drone them this administration has gone beyond a surreal state.

[maryrose]

Will be gone for the weekend,Have a great one!

[Danube on iPad]

I think it was someone here who recently alluded to the apparatchicks being led to their executions in the Lubyanka and saying, "if only Stalin knew about this it would never happen."

[Jane]

Caro,

I just sent you an email in which I forgot to tell you: 238

[Fiddler on the hoof]

Charlie was right about not having enough facts to make a judgement about harm vs benefit. Yeah, he broke the LAW, and sometimes laws need to be broken.

More so than left/right side choosing, it's about those who see the law as some immutable edifice, versus those who see it as it is; a temporary construct of the status quo.

[Ignatz]

--this administration has gone beyond a surreal state--

Make no mistake, the New Deal and the Great Society and even Clinton's Viagra Society represented large federal government power grabs meant to entrench national government power, but were still done within the framework of a small d democratic and small r republican form of government.

Barry represents the first real effort to use that power to "fundamentally transform" America away from that form of government.
It's a glacial coup.

[Rob Crawford]

It is payback time for Obama against all the imagined abuse he took growing up.

The horrible abuse of growing up in a rich home in a tropical paradise, forced to attend a luxurious private school, sliding into college on a claim of foreign birth and then scamming and scheming your way into a political career.

I mean, he had to actually go so far as to get a man's sealed divorce case unsealed. How fair is that? That seat was HIS; there should never have been a challenge.

[peter]

And let's not forget all the suffering Michelle went through. Free ride to Princeton on the basis of her older brother's basketball skills and the color of her skin, do nothing jobs at every stage of her career. It's hard.

[Threadkiller]

There is no proof that Obama ever claimed a "foreign birth".

[Rob Crawford]

peter -- as bad as anyone in Senegal has it.

[Threadkiller]

Were you thinking of the time he said he this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pXa2pK6sg

[Gus]

His book agents bio says he was born in Kenya. Where did the agent get the bio.

[cathy_f]

If I was forced to listen to my child's death cries 20 feet from the person who took his life...

Look, if I were forced to listen to my child almost-killing someone I wouldn't be able to stay in the room.

There is clearly something seriously wrong with these people, and it's a pretty safe call to say that they are some part of the REASON that their son tried to murder a stranger pretty much just for the heck of it.

[Danube on iPad]

So Issa's committee ruled that Lerner waived the Fifth. What happens next?

[Gus]

Cathy, Skittles and Dee Dee are quite normal, for their culture.
the Richness of diversity.

[Gus]

What happens next is nothing. How are Fast and Furious and Benghazi investigations going??

The GOP is worthless.

[Ignatz]

I don't think Barry's abuse was imagined.

It doesn't matter how middle class, rich or privileged your upbringing if your worthless father, who may or may not be your real father, abandons you and then your unstable mother subsequently marries some goof who carts you off to a foreign land and shoves you in a muslim school and then they both abandon you to be raised by your grandparents.
Some people like Clarence Thomas overcome that type of abandonment while some spend the rest of their lives entangled in it and trying to prove to the world they aren't hopelessly effed up (thereby confirming they are).
Were he not president I'd just feel sorry for the poor, hopeless jerk, but as it is we have to, as a nation, be his long suffering pscyhoanalyst while he exorcises his demons onto us.

[Threadkiller]

That was a typographical error, Gus.

[cathy_f]

So Issa's committee ruled that Lerner waived the Fifth. What happens next?

Does Holder have complete discretion as to whether she can be compelled to appear and testify?

Or can they send out the House sargent at arms to arrest her?

[Rob Crawford]

No doubt he felt abandoned, Ignatz. But to lash out at everyone who just happens to share his mothers' skin color? That's lunacy. And evil.

[cathy_f]

His book agents bio says he was born in Kenya. Where did the agent get the bio.

The agent got the book-flap-bio by reading the book. And the contents of the bio tells us just how much reading comprehension was going on...

Probably some just-out-of-college English major who had never been exposed to anything but queer theory.

[Porchlight]

Ignatz,

Even Clarence Thomas went through large portions of his life depressed and drinking heavily and unhappy in both his career and marriage. Luckily for young Clarence he was rescued by his grandfather in a way that Stanley Dunham never rescued young Barry (quite the opposite of rescue in Barry's case), so he had a deeper, purer well of strength to draw on, as well as different goals of course.

Which is not to take anything away from Thomas or say that Obama isn't responsible for his own actions. But Thomas does credit his grandfather (and Jesus of course) for good reason.

[Porchlight]

The agent got the book-flap-bio by reading the book. And the contents of the bio tells us just how much reading comprehension was going on...

cathyf, do you really believe that? An agent's sole job is to represent the client. The client writes or at least vets the bio. That is absolutely standard in the publishing industry. There is no way that bio could have made it to print without Barry signing off on it.

[Danube on iPad]

he broke the LAW, and sometimes laws need to be broken

If we stipulate, for the sake of argument, that the law against disclosing PRISM needed to be broken, that still leaves unaddressed other breaches of the law whose justification escapes me. Although there is no way I can be certain, a number of informed sources suggest that Snowden also gave raw intelligence data to the Chinese. It is hard to see such an action as standing up for Americans' right to privacy, or as furthering American interests in any way. Quite the contrary.

[Gus]

If someone here said Gus lives in Kenya. I would correct them.

[Danube on iPad]

His book agents bio says he was born in Kenya.

And Dr. Chiyone Fukino and Alvin Onaka say that his birth certificate establishes that he was born in Hawaii. Who you gonna believe?

[Captain Hate]

Clarence Thomas is a much smarter and more stable person than the JEF.

[Gus]

I tend to believe that he was born in Hawaii, but I also tend to believe that Obama is so dishonest that I don't believe anything he says.
Obama is a piece of shit.

[Patrick]

When is the prosecution going to start with the witnesses that will, you know, prove it's case? Or at least help?

[Old Lurker]

Porch re applying the (any) penalty selectively.

As Wesley Mouch said to Hank Reardon in Atlas Shrugged, WTTE the whole point is to have so many laws and regulations and penalties that they apply to everybody at all times. Then we get to decide who to exempt based on how we feel about that person each day.

[Gus]

Danube, I don't look at Obama from a lawyers perspective. I judge him based on the content of his character. Rather the lack of character.

[Captain Hate]

Hmmm, one comment eaten. Clarence Thomas is a smarter and more stable person than the JEF, who should be on a shrink's couch instead of in the White House.

[Porchlight]

His book agents bio says he was born in Kenya.

DoT, Gus made that statement in response to TK's statement:

There is no proof that Obama ever claimed a "foreign birth".

Obama did claim a foreign birth if he signed off on that bio. We do not have proof he signed off on the bio, but typical publishing practice suggests that he did.

The argument is about the existence of a claim to foreign birth, not about the reality of the birth.

I believe Obama was born in a Hawaii, but I also believe he deliberately lied and claimed to have been born in Kenya at a time in his life when he believed that to be to his advantage and when he didn't have designs on the White House.

[Captain Hate]

Not eaten, just temporarily lost.

[matt]

LI is saying that the neighbor just gutted the state's case. He watched as Trayvon straddled Zimmerman and punched him using MMA style punches.

[Captain Hate]

Again, there is something uniquely perverse about a President who is as deeply untransparent about his past as this one. An educated electorate wouldn't permit it.

[Porchlight]

OL at 12:36, precisely.

[Danube on iPad]

I believe Obama was born in a Hawaii, but I also believe he deliberately lied and claimed to have been born in Kenya at a time in his life when he believed that to be to his advantage and when he didn't have designs on the White House.

So do I. There is far less evidence of his making the Kenya claim than there is of his Hawaiian birth, but it only takes a little evidence to persuade me that he is lying on any given topic.

[Porchlight]

Cap'n,

So much has gone on that an educated electorate wouldn't have permitted even ten years ago. And not even policy outcomes, but Presidential behavior. It used to be unheard of for a President to use the bully pulpit to call out private citizens. Obama does it routinely. As you know that is just one of hundreds of examples.

Carter is a horrible human being and Clinton is a slimy lying dog but neither are even close to Obama in POS territory.

[cathy_f]

The client writes or at least vets the bio. That is absolutely standard in the publishing industry. There is no way that bio could have made it to print without Barry signing off on it.

That implies that Obama actually read the bio before signing off on it. He generally doesn't work that hard... Especially if he didn't read the book, he might have simply assumed that Bill Ayers had written that he was born in Kenya, and he was too lazy to fix it.

[Annoying Old Guy]

I've become convinced that the end goal for the tranzis is Neo-Feudalism with them as the aristocracy. As in those times, the serfs work as directed by the elite, tithing out to support their rulers. The effective law is whatever an aristocrat decides at that moment. The big difference is the Neo-Feudalistic cargo cult style nod to democracy and market economics. It's like a bad fantasy novel. Statements made the rulers don't have any real meaning, they are magical incantations that force the serfs to do as they are ordered.

[Danube on iPad]

My guess is that they call her back and she shows up and refuses to answer. There is no quick or easy resolution that I am aware of after that. They could ultimately hold her in contempt, but even that is a fairly toothless remedy, as we have seen. Excellent theater, though.

[Enlightened]

Silly us - Why would we be interested in reading or buying a bio of a man born in Hawaii to an interracial couple? Such a humble beginning for such an esteemed Black Man (albeit half Black)

It's much more dramatic (and subsequrntly more profitable) to declare the man was born in Kenya and overcame that to become the once and future One.

He lied (or his ghostwriter lied) about being born in Kenya to rope in the LIV's into the Messiah Is Coming phenomenon of Barry Obama.

[Captain Hate]

I don't know, Porch, I think you're giving Slick too much credit. He had his wife come up with a "vast right wing conspiracy" which set off so many red flags for me while the idiot libs just went "mmm-hmmm". Plus he sent out Serpent Head and Teh Forehead to attack private citizens.

You can't get to the JEF without the fat boy in the big boy jeans.

[Porchlight]

There is far less evidence of his making the Kenya claim than there is of his Hawaiian birth, but it only takes a little evidence to persuade me that he is lying on any given topic.

Yes. IMO his propensity to lie and obfuscate at every opportunity is the true genesis of the conspiracy theories.

Not to mention that some of the conspiracy theories, like the one about Bill Ayers having written Dreams From My Father, have a great deal of evidence supporting them and have even been more or less confirmed by independent sources (the Christopher Andersen biography of the Obamas).

[Account Deleted]

The State's "case" is directed at obtaining a manslaughter conviction by overcoming evidence of the elements required for justifiable homicide in self defense. I believe there's another eyewitness with an even better description of Martin beating Zimmerman but after all is said and shown, the judge's instructions on self defense are going to be critical.

The jury could go for manslaughter 'just cuz', feeling the lesser charge to be splitting the difference regardless of the evidence. Scott, Biondi and Corey need to be hounded from office for this, regardless of the outcome.

[cathy_f]

Is there a "House Gaol"? The usual punishment for contempt is jailing the witness until they agree to testify, right? If she shows up and refuses to testify, can the House Sargent-at-Arms immediately seize her and lock her up somewhere in the physical bounds of the House of Representatives and imprison her until she testifies?

[Porchlight]

Especially if he didn't read the book, he might have simply assumed that Bill Ayers had written that he was born in Kenya, and he was too lazy to fix it.

If so, that is equivalent to a claim to foreign birth so the point stands.

At some point, at minimum, the agent would have had to have shown Obama the draft and said "here is what we have for your bio, is this okay" and Obama said yes.

Unless the agent was working through Ayers and I am not prepared to believe that at all. Obama is not the kind of guy to let another guy take credit for the Greatest Memoir Ever Written, even if the other guy really did write it.

[matt]

DoT;

I have always thought that Obama may have dual citizenship. Technically, he does regardless as his father was Kenyan. He may also have been eligible for Indonesian citizenship through Lolo or Bozo or whatever his name was.

I think he gamed the system using foreign citizenship and has gamed the system throughout his career. It is what politicians do best after all.

[Porchlight]

You can't get to the JEF without the fat boy in the big boy jeans.

Good point, Cap'n.

[Porchlight]

Plus he sent out Serpent Head and Teh Forehead to attack private citizens.

But to follow up, at least Clinton recognized the need for a President to keep his own hands clean and sent those guys out rather than do it himself. He didn't just up and do it from the podium like Obama did. From now on it will be considered normal to do that, at least if you're a Dem. Clinton does probably resent that Obama has gotten away with it, though.

[Neo]

Witness Good: “It was a black man with a black hoodie on top ..”

This couldn’t be Trayvon. It must be his “evil twin” from episode 31

[Threadkiller]

Only Indonesian citizens could attend Indonesian schools, matt.

[Patrick]

Scott, Biondi and Corey need to be hounded from office for this, regardless of the outcome.

Cannot be said enough.

[Danube on iPad]

"I have always thought that Obama may have dual citizenship."

I'm uncertain of the law regarding dual citizenship, but t's my understanding that he could have had it if he had sought it.

[Neo]

Looks like Trayvon suffered from a terminal case of stupidity.

[Enlightened]

WTF? Why did the STATE put on Good? His testimony just destroyed their case. They must have know that would happen?

Are they going to try and change the "beat down" to Trayvon was beatin the ass-cracka pervert before he could rape him?

[Threadkiller]

Obama was born with dual citizenship according to his "Fight the Smears" website. They cite the British Nationality act of 1948 as authority.

They go on to explain that the citizenship expired at a later date.

[Gus]

It seems to me that we debate details of Obama's life of lies. It is obvious to anyone with an iq of 100 or a moral code, that Obama is lying piece of shit. His entire life is a lie.

[Captain Hate]

But to follow up, at least Clinton recognized the need for a President to keep his own hands clean and sent those guys out rather than do it himself. He didn't just up and do it from the podium like Obama did. From now on it will be considered normal to do that, at least if you're a Dem. Clinton does probably resent that Obama has gotten away with it, though.

Hmmm, you're doing your best to make me say nice things about Clenis. Ok, how's this: Slick respected the office because he admired JFK, a fellow sexual predator, and knew the office could be used to snag cooter. For all of the JEF's abundant flaws, he's never been credibly accused of rape by a person who has never been refuted.

[Threadkiller]

I would like to point out that today's conversation has been very cordial.

[Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet]

I fear you are right, Rick. ISTM the state is trying the case as if it were shooting for a compromise verdict. With this all female jury, that is sadly a good possibility. I am not sure that such a verdict should withstand appeal because of the evidence at the scene of GZ's injuries coupled with Good's testimony which evidence is totally unrebutted.

[Jane]

"It doesn't matter how middle class, rich or privileged your upbringing if your worthless father, who may or may not be your real father, abandons you"

With all due respect Iggy, that's bullshit. You either grow up believing your future is up to you, and you can do anything you want with it as long as you work hard enough, or you grow up feeling entitled. It makes no difference if you are rich or poor or white or black or have 1 bad parent or 2 good ones.

[Clarice]

From Branca at Legal Insurrection (case over)
O’Mara: Just to clarify what was actually talked about with Chris Serino, Investigator Serino, during this, we’re going to call it for the moment the Ground-and-Pound conversation. We have a rule called completeness, so what I want to do is put it in context for you, ask you if this is what you said to Chris Serino. OK?

“Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Is that the context in which that happened?

Good: Yes.

O’Mara: And then Investigator Serino said, a word that I have, and the transcripts may differ, ground, couldn’t figure it, maybe he said Ground-and-Pound, and then you said:

“Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so at this point I told him I’m calling 911.”

BDLR: Objection. Improper bolstering.

O’Mara: I’m at the end of it. Is that–

Judge: There’s an objection and the objection is . . .

BDLR: Hearsay and improper bolstering

O’Mara: I would suggest that rule 108, which is the rule of completeness, suggests that because they brought in part of it . . . and iI’m speaking, I apologize.

Judge: The objection as to hearsay is overruled. Bolstering is not the right objection either, so that’s OK.

BDLR: Beyond the scope of cross-examination to that point

Judge: I overrule on that objection, also, so go ahead.

O’Mara: That’s what you said.

Good: The whole thing, yes

O’Mara: And that was the context in which the words Ground-and-Pound came out.

Good: Yes, for more clarification.

O’Mara: OK. And do you stand by that today, that what you saw is was a Ground-and-Pound event?

Good: It looked like that position was a Ground-and-Pound type of position, but I couldn’t tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces.

O’Mara: But you did see [reading] “the guy in the top in the black hoodie pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Good: Meaning arm motions going down on the person on the bottom. Correct.

O’Mara: You’re’ not going to tell the jury here today that you saw fists hit flesh or face if you didn’t actually see it, right?

Good: I wouldn’t tell them that anyway, because i didn’t actually see it.

O’Mara: Great, thanks very much , no further questions.

[Gus]

Ignatz and Jane. I don't care how Obama became a fucked up sociopath. He is a dishonest person.

[Captain Hate]

To Iggy and Jane: As with everything in social science, it's impossible to make definitive statements on what will result from something happening. What Iggy said is generally true but Jane is correct that some individuals will overcome the situation.