Imagining If The Races Were Reversed In The Zimmerman Case

I am shocked that the shooting of Chris Cervini by Roderick Scott was overlooked for so long by so many (but not all!) during the Zimmerman hoop-la. Geez, imagine if a black man intent on stopping crime shot a white kid. Or rather than imagine, check this case from upstate New York that unfolded during 2009:

Late Friday evening, a Monroe County jury reached a unanimous verdict in the trial of Roderick Scott: not guilty of manslaughter in the first degree. Scott had gunned down a teenage hoodlum who had been breaking into cars in his neighborhood. The prosecution portrayed it as an act of vigilante behavior run amok; Scott and his defense team presented the incident as the unfortunate result of reasonable behavior by a concerned citizen paired with the foolishness of a teenager under the influence of alcohol, drugs and bad peers.

The kids were caught in the act of breaking into cars and had the drug/alcohol thing, so Scott had that going for him. On the other hand, Scott "had the build of a football player", was never actually struck by any of the teens, and managed to shoot the dead boy twice, once in the back. Ooops.

Unlike Zimmerman, Scott was promptly arrested. Like Zimmerman, he was eventually acquited by a jury that apparently felt his self-defense argument created reasonable doubt.

Here is some eerily prescient speculation from 2009:

Had this same series of events occurred with a different cast of characters, could we expect the public and, more important, the jury, to treat the actors the same way? In this case, Scott was an African American man, his victim a white teenaged male. Had the race of these two been reversed -- a white man shooting an African American youth -- would the trial have received more attention? Would motives have been scrutinized more closely? Would conservative commentators rallied to the shooter's defense (because you know how criminally-inclined those youth are...)? Would activists have championed the cause of the victim as yet another casualty of stereotypes and bigotry? Difficult to say, but all fair questions to ask. Perhaps this community was lucky, in a way, that the characters were cast as they were.

I guess we have some answers there.

Meanwhile, after all their hyperventilating about the hideous Stand Your Ground law in Florida, let's take a nano-second to review the entirety of the NY Times coverage of this upstate New York case:

That was easy. Hello, Charles Blow? Helloooooo?

PILING ON: The DoJ has time on its hands and is trolling for tips on a private citizen without any of those vexing warrants or indictments or the sorts of things that we normally associate with the FBI's Most Wanted list. Well, if they want to investigate acquited citizens, maybe we can tip them off to the Roderick Scott case.

Comments

[boris]

"If we apply simple logic ..."

WRT your "logic" there is no "we" bubu.

[narciso]

There's a reason I despise the weasel trump, well several actually.

[NK]

Jane-- that's just afactual, and explicitly contradicted by the police dispatcher tapes and GZ own statements. When he lost sight of the hooded figure, GZ got out of his truck and followed the figure vigorously enouth and far enough to be audibly winded on the tape, and when the dispatcher asked GZ if he was following where the figure had gone, GZ confirmed that he was and the dispatcher famously said 'we don't need you to do that'. Now JimmyK notes that GZ was a pudgy guy and may have winded quickly, but he was 24, so at minimum, GZ vigorously and actively followed the figure, before stopping and apparently deciding to go back to his truck and wait for the cops.

[boris]

It's not that bubu doesn't believe Trayvon took the long way "home" and was snooping ... bubu doesn't care.

It's not that bubu doesn't believe Trayvon circled back to confront GZ ... bubu doesn't care.

It's not that bubu doesn't believe Trayvon sucker punched GZ ... bubu doesn't care.

It's not that bubu doesn't believe Trayvon knocked GZ to the ground and proceeded to pound his head on the sidewalk ... bubu doesn't care.

It's not that bubu doesn't believe Trayvon went for the gun ... bubu doesn't care.

Trayvon was a teenage black child and GZ shot him. That's all bubu really cares about.

Why? Dunno but suspect it has something to do with the civil right's crusade being part of the glorious past and this was an opportunity for bubu to pretend bubu could stand in its radiance.

[Porchlight]

Anonamom,

A friend of my husband's died the way you describe in your 8:01. A friend came up to give him a bear hug and he lost his balance and fell backwards, hitting his head. Dead within a couple of hours.

[boris]

"figure vigorously enouth and far enough to be audibly winded on the tape"

I dispute that. He sounded like a guy on high alert, not winded. My brother, who is a police chief, sounds like that when we're hunting and he sees something.

After he said "okay" the breathy quality was gone. Apparently instead of returning to the safety of his truck he walked about in the vicinity of his truck waiting for the police to arrive and describe the suspect ...

who had already run off.

Bad judgment? Nope, just not psychic.

[Rob Crawford]

... and to think that on every college campus there are student counselors, aka, psychologists, who rationalize exactly like "bunkerbuster" does.

Back in my college days we had a "director of student life" or some such that tried to get "misleading or false statements" banned from the college's corner of the Internet.

I almost felt sorry for the little miss busy-body; she ended up being buzz-sawed by every portion of the political spectrum.

[narciso]

The good newa Wiener is lower in the polls, the bad news, Christine Quinn, is in the lead.

[JIB]

narciso,

No, I haven't yet. Too much going on here. Last night the concert in Agwam Park but maybe tonight. I also see that I have the two new Brad Thor books on my kindle app.

Lots to read I guess.

[Marlene]

How about a "your tax dollars at work story?" The Army Corps of Engineers wants to build a fence around the perimeter of Fort Knox,which was built in 1844 to protect the Penobscot River valley from further British invasion,despite the Webster-Ashburton Treaty.The fort is a state park and managed by a private group.The Friends of Fort Knox and local residents want a public forum,because they don't want the fort to look like a prison.The Army Corps has $500,000 to spend.Safety is the stated reason,because for the past 30 years about 30 people have been injured falling from 25 foot drops onto the granite. A spokesman for the Corps said,a fort is a dangerous place. Really?

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

from narciso's 9:04 link -
"But the Justice Department has declined to prosecute any of the offenders. Treasury officials have refused to give Mr. Grassley any specifics on the cases or to describe the disposition of Ms. O'Donnell’s case, claiming even people who improperly access tax records have an assumption of privacy under federal tax laws."

and this - "On March 9, 2010, the day she revealed her plan to run for the Senate in a press release, a tax lien was placed on a house purported to be hers and publicized. The problem was she no longer owned the house. The IRS eventually blamed the lien on a computer glitch and withdrew it."

March 2010 was a busy time for the Democrat thugs & criminals.
*IRS targeted conservative 501 groups
*IRS targets Tea Party candidates
*At least 4 members of the CBC along with McClatchy manufacture a phony story about racist Tea Partiers

What else? JournoList was still operating then....did any of those old emails touch on targeting conservatives & their organizations?

[Account Deleted]

... and to think that on every college campus there are student counselors, aka, psychologists, who rationalize exactly like "bunkerbuster" does.

They're just reinforcers for the mind arsonist Pitzer Putzs using very shallow sophistry to "mold" the emotions of the intellectual mediocrities (to be extraordinarily kind) who become Dudas, Bubus and Kakas. The very moldy results have a limited ability to communicate the emotions arising from their indoctrination but reason and logic play little part in what they communicate. A 'math is hard' Barbie is intellectually equipped to the same degree as the victims of a Pitzer Putz.

The goal of the indoctrination described by RSE is to put a Pitzer Putz in every classroom to produce a reliable majority of Dudas, Bubus and Kakas, capable only of a Skinner pigeon response when presented with the shiny emo button.

I appreciate Dr. Weevil's attempt to engage with our mental dwarfs but conservative sites are just test beds for Pitzer Putzs working on disruptive tactics. A response to a Pitzer Putz acolyte is simply a mark of success.

[narciso]

It's remarkable yet not surprising, how the Ewok and other likeminds went along with it,
and didn't apologize when nothing came of it.

[Anonymous]

But that's not the question. The question is, among people who did shoot unarmed teenagers dead, how many who also had assault arrests and restraining orders on their record were then shown to be murderers?

Posted by: bunkerbuster | July 18, 2013 at 09:06 AM

You'll need an Al Sharpton Decoder Ring to translate that.

[narciso]

That Gruber quote, about FBI procedures, comes to mind with this news;

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/17/third-court-overturns-obama-recess-appointments/

[Jane]

'If so, won't the defense be able to bring up Trayvon's prior sins like burglary, fighting, guns, etc.?'

What makes you think the federal system won't be rigged by Holder?

Pager, I'm very close to giving up and calling it a day. Why we are not in the streets is beyond me.

[jimmyk]

I'm already following you Jimmy, I just checked.

Zimmerman was NOT following skittles.

Ha, good one Jane. In any case, I promise I won't sucker-punch you in the nose.

[NK]

GZ was on 'high alert' or emotionally stressed (rather than cardio exertion) by following a suspicious and potentially dangerous unknown person such that it affected his speaking voice. Whatever characterization one gives it, GZ didn't merely take a few steps to check a street sign. THAT is the misrepresentation of evidentiary facts I was correcting. The simple truth is GZ deliberately followed the suspicious figure, the physical or psychological stress of his doing so is audible on the Sanford PD tapes-- AND GZ admitted all that in his statements to Sanford PD investigators. Does being on 'Team GZ'give license to misrepresent these facts? Course not, and more importantly the 'following' is irrelevant to his acquittal. Following the figure may have been poor judgment (the SPD dispatcher and Wisconsin NRA CC instructors deem it so), but it didn't make GZ a physical aggressor in any way. Instead TM was the sole agressor and GZ was entirely the victim of a violent assault, which allowed GZ to use deadly force to defend himself. Those are the facts and the law. Sticking to those is the best way to legally and morally defend GZ.

[Rob Crawford]

For an illustration of the desperation of the left to demonize Zimmerman, see LUN. The supposed intellectual gets basic facts wrong, ignores inconvenient evidence, and generally behaves the way you'd expect a bigot to behave.

[Rob Crawford]

Why we are not in the streets is beyond me.

We have jobs.

[Threadkiller]

The reason you and so many others are not on the streets is because of appearances, Jane. If you head out there you will be labeled, just like the groups that are already off their couches.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/new-movement-spreads-impeach-obama-message/

This is still a time of massive capitulation hoping the problem will go away, and as long as the enemies of the enemies of this country can't be your in public friends you will never have a political force large enough to end the madness.

I am in no way saying that you have not done far more than most. Indeed you have taken on a tremendous amount.

[jimmyk]

The good newa Wiener is lower in the polls, the bad news, Christine Quinn, is in the lead.

I made this mistake in '08 with Obama vs. Hillary, but I'm kind of hoping Weiner wins the Dem nomination, as it might give a Republican (hopefully Joe Lhota, who seems like a good candidate) a shot.

Remember, as shocking as it may seem, NYC has not elected an officially Dem mayor since 1989. And as annoying as Bloomberg has been, he's been far better than any of the Dem candidates he defeated would have been. For example, he's vigorously opposed the "living wage" nonsense.

[narciso]

I always thought the ganging up on her, to defend one of the Clean Togas was unseemly;

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/07/18/christine-odonnell-a-victim-of-irs-abuse/

[Anonymous]

In fact, I'm on my way now to a meeting of mastermind online shapeshifters who foil the great identity conservative revolution by shooting down its clay pigeons nightly...

Posted by: bunkerbuster | July 18, 2013 at 09:50 AM

... and, and, (sputter!) and you know what else? Bugs, Daffy, Porky, Elmer and Jessica Rabbit will be there? So there! Nyah, nyah, na, na, nyah .....pftttt!!!

[pagar]

Here's one of the nominees that the Republican Senators surrendered on, and got NOTHING in return. While we sit here and put up with the leftist garbage we have seen on display here this morning.

http://blog.heritage.org/2013/07/18/morning-bell-serious-new-questions-on-obama-labor-nominee/

Like Jane says "We should be in the streets" over the nomination of this anti America leftist to any position.

[jimmyk]

The simple truth is GZ deliberately followed the suspicious figure

NK, you are distorting or omitting key facts as well. Whatever evidence there is that GZ "followed" TM is more than matched by evidence that he immediately ceased "following" him at the point the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that."

We've been through this about five times, so at this point I'm giving up.

[narciso]

Shocking I know;

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/07/18/fact-check-stand-your-ground-laws-dont-increase-murder-manslaughter-rate/

[Threadkiller]

“All this points to the inescapable conclusion that the framers intended something specific by the term ‘the Recess,’ and that it was something different than a generic break in proceedings,” Judge Clyde H. Hamilton wrote in his majority opinion."

False.

We all know The Framers would never "intend something specific" with any of the terms they agonized over while drafting The Constitution.

[narciso]

Of course, Russia pioneered the notion of turning political dissidents into criminals,
as the Navalny example and Magnitsky one before, proves.

[Pretentious Bunkerbuster]

... and, and, (sputter!) and you know what else? Bugs, Daffy, Porky, Elmer and Jessica Rabbit will be there? So there! Nyah, nyah, na, na, nyah .....pftttt!!!

Posted by: Bunkerbuster | July 18, 2013 at 10:01 AM

[Jane]

Bubu,

Assuming you are white, you must be soooooooooooooo ashamed.

[Danube on iPad]

It would be interesting to know if a creature fitting bubu's definition of an "identity conservative" exists anywhere on the planet outside his own febrile imagination. I suspect none does, which would explain why no one else ever uses the term.

I am gratified that Florida's SYG law has been invoked successfully so often by black defendants. Each instance represents a man who might otherwise be spending his life in prison - or facing execution - but instead is a free man because a judge or jury found that he was entitled under the law ro use deadly force. Eric Holder says he wants that law repealed. Al Sharpton rails against it.

Tell us about the extent of Roderick Scott's injuries, bubu.

[Ignatz]

I think bubu has finally helped me to understand one of his pet terms; "intellectually dishonest."

When he gets caught out telling an outright lie, gets caught displaying his astounding ignorance or a profoundly illogical and unsupported conclusion of his is pointed out to him, he is constitutionally incapable of admitting it.

It's impossible to engage in any kind of useful discussion with a person who, when he is shown beyond dispute to be wrong on a matter of fact or logic, either ignores the error and proceeds as though nothing has occurred or changes his position just enough to argue minutiae in an attempt to claim the error never occurred.

IMO is the essence of intellectual dishonesty although it still looks like plain old dishonesty to me (and plain old projection).

[jimmyk]

he clearly has issues of exactly the kind that, when accompanying the act of a shooting an unarmed teenager dead, point straight toward murder...

A jury of six people who heard all the arguments and evidence and deliberated for more than a day says you're full of sh*t.

[Rob Crawford]

You have to admit -- the Zimmerman lynch mob sure is tenacious.

[Threadkiller]

If is brandished upside his head in a manner equivalent to the beating GZ took.

Your scenario implies GZ shot TM for brandishing his fists.

Rick Ballard is correct about you. Too bad.

[boris]

"The simple truth is GZ deliberately followed the suspicious figure, the physical or psychological stress of his doing so is audible ...
... Does being on 'Team GZ'give license to misrepresent these facts?"

GZ got out and went to see where Trayvon was going but quickly lost sight. Nobody is misrepresenting that, just clarifying it was not following as in "pursuit".

The attack happened minutes later and was not related to the "following" in any way. Other than GZ was still outside his vehicle and more vulnerable.

You frame the description of GZ actions to imply what happened was consequence of exiting and following. It misrepresents nothing to dispute that.

[narciso]

Of course, David French, still doesn't have a clue.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

If you head out there you will be labeled, just like the groups that are already off their couches.

It works for the left....their ties to the MFM are SO valuable.
I went to a rally on March 16 2010 (I think that's the date...met Jim Ryan)& got super disheartened. The WaPo had pictures of Larouche nutcases & of a guy with stickers on his face.
So I think...well, I don't want to embarrass my family. The crowd was pretty small...what is the point.

Then on the 20th...I decided to give it a last go & the crowds were big. I guess Glenn Beck had put out the call. And that's the day the 'Tea Partiers are racist' meme REALLY took off with the CBC lies.

The Dems were in overdrive to ruin the Tea Party movement. Scare away donors with the IRS, make people afraid to start a group, show tea party rallies as kooks so nobody wants to go.

[boris]

There is a show on cable's "Animal Planet" called "River Monsters". He's a fishing enthusiast who goes after scary, unusual, sometimes "man eating" fish.

When he thinks he's going to get one of them he sounds a lot like GZ before the operator says "don't need you to" and he says "okay".

It's pretty much indicative of exactly nothing.

[boris]

Marting circled back and attacked a stranger who was walking about his own neighborhood. Thug.

[Danube on iPad]

Ed Morrissey:

"Florida experienced a spike in murders and manslaughters after passing the law, but the curve has almost returned to the status quo ante.  The same is true in New Mexico, Louisiana (slightly) and in Delaware, the rate has continued its slight increase.  In Texas, the rate has declined after SYG passage, and the other states have either shown slight declines or no change at all. While one could possibly argue that these rates would have declined more without SYG in place, it’s impossible to argue that SYG has created an environment of escalating homicides."

[narciso]

Yelling squirrel at the top of their lungs;

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353733/ig-under-attack-eliana-johnson

[Anonymous]

Little Bunkie agrees with you. He's busting your balls. Ooops, did I just spoil his day?

[Bruce Hayden]

The one thing that might have been different if the races were reversed is that Martin might have a criminal record for burgllary or at least receiving stolen goods. See How a Miami School Crime Cover-Up Policy Led to Trayvon Martin's Death, and the jury more likely would have seen that information than the contents of Martin's phone. Apparently, the MDSPD (Miama-Dade School Police Department) had implemented a policy of reporting crimes as disciplinary matters to show a decrease in crime in the schools. And, it worked, with the chief of the MDSPD getting recognized for significantly reducing (reported) crime in the school system. One of those benefitting from this policy was apparently TM who had been caught on video doing grafitti, and stolen jewelry was discovered in his bag as a result. The jewelry appears to have been stolen earlier than month, acccording to a police report. TM refused to implicate the person who supposedly gave him the jewelry. (And, the meme that it was costume jewelry is likely disproven by the fact that a police report was filed on the theft). In any case, the reason that TM didn't have an arrest on his record for either receiving stolen goods or burgary appears to because the MDSPD was intentionally not reporting crimes as crimes in order to make its (reported) crime rate look better. While this likely would have also benefitted a (mostly white) Hispanic attending the same school system, if the kid had been attending a school district without the chronic inner city crime problem that Miami-Dade has, the jewelry would have been reported as a crime, and not a disciplinary matter.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

at CSPAN
IRS Officials Testify on Targeting Conservative Groups

The House Oversight Cmte. hears from IRS officials about the targeting of tea party & other conservative organizations. Lawmakers take a closer look at IRS headquarters in Washington and the Cincinnati office that dealt with tax-exempt applications.
Live at 11am (ET)

[James D.]

Why is anyone responding to bubu at all?

[narciso]

Well she's been generally clueless, so this isn't a surprise;

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353718/columnist-calls-release-zimmerman-jurors-names-lindsey-grudnicki

[Jane]

"Martin's guilty because he's a thug.'

When was his trial?

Martin is dead because he was a thug. There I fixed it for you. Send flowers to the family if that bothers you.

[Rob Crawford]

Why is anyone responding to bubu at all?

Boredom?

Cruelty?

[bgates]

What are the odds that someone who shot a teenager dead did so in self-defense

The odds that George Zimmerman did so appear pretty good.

[Ignatz]

And as sure as the sun rises in the east he confirms my 10:10 by sticking to his discredited pop-guns at 10:24.
Hopelessly dishonest.

[Danube on iPad]

Zimmerman confronts Martin, who's afraid, but who's dancing between fight or flight. He chose fight and lunges for the gun. Zimmerman is too late to fully draw the gun and takes one on the nose and Martin follows the punch with a tackle, landing atop Zimmerman.

Posted by: bunkerbuster | June 30, 2013 at 08:39 AM

Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!

[Bruce Hayden]

BB - you are forgetting TM's social media accounts, where he portrayed himself as a thug and gangsta wannabe, showing illegal guns, drugs, bragging about fighting, etc. I think that most of us here looked at a lot of the tweats, etc. of the self-titled "No Limit Nigga" (@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA). One of the great things about the Internet is that it doesn''t forget anything. Rather, there are plenty of places still where you can still find those tweats.

[NK]

10:13-- Factual 'causation' versus legal 'responsibility'. 2 very different things, that some seem to misunderstand and conflate. GZ leaving his truck was a direct factual causation of TM/GZ being on the sidewalk many yards from where the truck was parked. If GZ had stayed with his truck, the confrontation on the sidewalk would not have happened. Those are the trial facts, and establish the factual causation of GZ following. But factual causation gets remote, so the real question is what causation creates legal responsibility for the ultimate event. The physical struggle that caused the shooting resulted from TM attacking GZ; THAT factual causation was was the proximate/legal causation of the shooting both under criminal and civil standards-- that's why GZ was not guilty of any crime. If this were a civil case of TM suing GZ, the jury should find that TM was the proximate or legal cause (civil standard) of the physical confrontation-- the last clear chance to avoid injury was TM NOT attacking GZ. Arguably, a jury could find GZ 'contributed' some percentage of fault by following, but even in a civil case the legal responsibility was TM's. There is no debate of the 'following' facts and factual causation of 'following'. there is no debate that as a criminal matter GZ had no criminal liability as the victim of TM's attack-- in a possible future civil damages case, GZ's legal responsibility by following may become an issue-- that would be decided by Fla case law, of which I'm not familiar.

[narciso]

This is the piece I was referring to;

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353695/defend-our-law-and-culture-not-george-zimmerman-david-french

[Danube on iPad]

Cruelty and pure fun, Rob.

[narciso]

Same lie, different day, from the other thread;

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353751/more-new-york-premiums-under-obamacare-obamas-health-care-address-today-avik-roy

[Army of Davids]

Community Organizing 101

racial division = agitprop to distract the low information voter (LIV demographic) from more important issues facing a country due to failed leadership/statism/corruption

[Bruce Hayden]

Danube - the left (including DD) have to invent scenarios to justify why GZ shouldn't have been able to shoot his attacker. Never mind that there is little, if any, evidentiary support for such, and that the prosecution's star witness essentially corroborated that TM was the initial aggressor, and no evidence was ever introduced that GZ had drawn his firearm before TM was on top of him pummeling him MMA style (or, indeed, that TM ever saw GZ's concealed weapon before then). I love how they state as established truth what was rank speculation by the prosecutors, quickly rejected by most of the jury as lacking any evidentiary support. Or, some of the theories far fetched enough that the prosecution couldn't even mention them.

The funny thing for me is that BB was around here a year or so ago when much of the information directly contradicting his recent statements was first discussed. I have to think that he knows better. Maybe. Or, maybe just so inured by listening to far left echo chambers that he can't remember.

[narciso]

That Timothy Just piece was cringeworthy, I'm divided as if he wrote it out of ignorance, or deliberately.

[Anonymous]

Ignatz @ 10:36 - It could be that, or it could be that he ignored you @ 10:24.

[narciso]

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch;

"According to trusted sources that have contacted my office, many if not all of the survivors of the Benghazi attacks along with others at the Department of Defense, the CIA have been asked or directed to sign additional non-disclosure agreements about their involvement in the Benghazi attacks. Some of these new NDAs, as they call them, I have been told were signed as recently as this summer."

[narciso]

Some more details, re the IRS here;

http://washingtonexaminer.com/new-testimony-claims-lois-lerner-and-obama-appointee-were-behind-tea-party-targeting/article/2533170

[Danube on iPad]

The defense called a computer expert, Richard Connor, who authenticated the texts and images. His testimony was sufficient under Florida law to establish authenticity.

But maybe somebody borrowed Trayvon's phone and sent those messages. Yeah, that's it!

[Bruce Hayden]

BB - you fell into the same trap that the judge fell into with the contents of TM's cell phone. Of course, you can't guarantee 100% that the tweats were those of TM. Twitter may have been hacked sufficiently to introduce past tweats, complete with time stamps, or maybe someone was pretending to be TM during the fall of 2011 and early winter of 2012 (but why would anyone bother, since he was months from being famous?) But, the tweats were self-identified as those of TM, and the photos look like him. So, maybe we are down to 99% likelihood of the twitter account having been TM's. Or, maybe even 99.9%, but not the 100% that you seem to demand.

Still, the question that you implicitly raised here is whether we should believe that the tweats, etc. were TM's, and not whether they should have been admissible. And, for us here, 99%, or even 75%, is more than sufficient. TM appears to have self-identify as a thug and gansta wannabe in those tweats, etc., and there is an extremely high likelihood that they were his. Not guaranteed, just very high probability.

[Jane]

"How do you now he is a thug?"

See Bruce Hayden above. This information has been out there. Why don't you know about it.

So are you a thug too? Or do you just like thuggish behavior?

[boris]

bubu: ... evidence to label Martin a thug who enjoyed attacking strangers ...

He attacked Zimmerman

[bgates]

narrowing it to a single case means there can be no odds

So, like, ya can't bet on a single baseball game, ya gotta bet on the whole season?

[jimmyk]

DoT and I already schooled bubu in the fact that social media stuff is admissible under FL law. It wasn't admissible in this particular trial because TM wasn't on trial, but they are presumed to be authentic under FL law. Bubu is an idiot who doesn't know what 'evidence' is. He should be ignored, which I have been trying to do since yesterday but other people unfortunately keep responding to him.

[Thomas Collins]

Bunkerbuster, I see you've joined the Zimmerman fray. I'm sure you've commented on the issues set forth below, because I know scrupulous fairness is an essential element of your role as an identity post-modernist. However, since I have missed some of your comments (I must have been at my right wing cult meeting plotting to rip off the poor and homeless even more than they have been ripped off by The Man), I wonder whether you might indulge me by summarizing your views on these issues.

(i) Why has MSM given scant mention to Zimmerman's efforts on behalf of Sherman Ware?

(ii) Do you believe the NBC folks who claim that the editing of the tape and transcript of Zimmerman's call to the police was not done with a view to attempting to portray Zimmerman as a racist?

(iii) If Zimmerman was intent on harassing Martin, why did Zimmerman call the police? So that the police could observe Zimmerman's assaultive behavior?

(iv) Is it your assessment that a neighborhood watch person shouldn't question a person he doesn't recognize? Or that a neighborhood watch person's getting out of his car after calling the police should negate a self-defense claim after the neighborhood watch person is attacked?

(v) Do you agree with the stereotype of Zimmerman as a homosexual rapist, as portrayed in the Martin/Jeantel call?

(vi) Do you believe a person should have suffered great bodily harm or be dead before such person has a viable claim that he or she is in reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death?

(vii) Do you agree with Jeantel that Martin started the violence?

(viii) Do you think Mr. Good made up his testimony?

(ix) Why do left leaners such as Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz so thoroughly criticize the prosecution for showing sensitivity to Martin's plight? I thought only identity conservatives would do that.

I could go on, but I need to go scheme and dream up more ways to bolster my identity conservative mentality.

[Thomas Collins]

Bunkerbuster, I see you've joined the Zimmerman fray. I'm sure you've commented on the issues set forth below, because I know scrupulous fairness is an essential element of your role as an identity post-modernist. However, since I have missed some of your comments (I must have been at my right wing cult meeting plotting to rip off the poor and homeless even more than they have been ripped off by The Man), I wonder whether you might indulge me by summarizing your views on these issues.

(i) Why has MSM given scant mention to Zimmerman's efforts on behalf of Sherman Ware?

(ii) Do you believe the NBC folks who claim that the editing of the tape and transcript of Zimmerman's call to the police was not done with a view to attempting to portray Zimmerman as a racist?

(iii) If Zimmerman was intent on harassing Martin, why did Zimmerman call the police? So that the police could observe Zimmerman's assaultive behavior?

(iv) Is it your assessment that a neighborhood watch person shouldn't question a person he doesn't recognize? Or that a neighborhood watch person's getting out of his car after calling the police should negate a self-defense claim after the neighborhood watch person is attacked?

(v) Do you agree with the stereotype of Zimmerman as a homosexual rapist, as portrayed in the Martin/Jeantel call?

(vi) Do you believe a person should have suffered great bodily harm or be dead before such person has a viable claim that he or she is in reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death?

(vii) Do you agree with Jeantel that Martin started the violence?

(viii) Do you think Mr. Good made up his testimony?

(ix) Why do left leaners such as Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz so thoroughly criticize the prosecution for showing sensitivity to Martin's plight? I thought only identity conservatives would do that.

I could go on, but I need to go scheme and dream up more ways to bolster my identity conservative mentality.

[boyle]

'Demonizing Zimmerman'

nyuk. He's still breathing. But I know of another young man who is not, yet the trashing continues. Maybe you could lighten up on the dead skittler.

[NK]

David French-- he gets to the correct macro conclusion, about our our Ethos and Laws. the bedrock principle should be that if you are the aggressor and physically attack someone, you assume all the risk that they will defend themselves, and if you attack violently enough that they are reasonably in fear of death or severe injury, they can use deadly force against you. Our Ethos and Laws should protect the weak and the peaceable people in their homes or the public street. French engages in nonsense about poor Trayvon being basically stalked by GZ. Nonsense, TM was an athletic 17yo, he had all the time in the world to get to his dad's apartment, or even stay put and call his dad or 911. Instead he attacked GZ. French is misrepresenting proven facts to make rhetorical points-- shame on him.

[Danube on iPad]

Authentication or identification of evidence is required as a condition precedent to its admissibility. The requirements of this section are satisfied by evidence sufficient to support a finding that the matter in question is what its proponent claims. - Florida Statute 90.901

"Sufficient to support a finding." In the absence of any evidence of inauthenticity, that is a very low threshold. The requirement was satisfied under Florida case law. So far as I am aware, the state made no claim of inauthenticity; it's argument was that the tweets and texts were prejudicial. Nelson never stated the basis for excluding them.

[Danube on iPad]

its

[Threadkiller]

I had no idea you were such a racist, TC.

:-)

My prediction is that BB poorly answers only one of your questions.

[boyle]

" Why do left leaners such as Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz so thoroughly criticize the prosecution for showing sensitivity to Martin's plight? I thought only identity conservatives would do that."

Evidence that they are left-leaning?

I think your CI has affected your judgement.

[Rob Crawford]

Maybe you could lighten up on the dead skittler.

Why? He was committing a criminal act.

Frankly, I trash the thug because I'm sick of his beatification. He was a thief, a habitual drug user, violent, and HE made the critical choices that led to his death.

Trayvon Martin ruined the life of an innocent man by deciding to attack that man. That Martin ended up dead as a result doesn't change that fact one bit.

[Thomas Collins]

TK, I think my ability to rattle off those types of questions should qualify me as JOM's Numero Uno Identity Conservative! :-))

[Rob Crawford]

Evidence that they are left-leaning?

Ask them. They'll tell you they're left-leaning.

[NK]

JimmyK-- you reach a different conclusion about good/bad judgment about GZ following. I have no issue with that-- I simply disagree with that. What I don't accept is other people misrepresenting facts as a way to make rhetorical points. My comment about David French above is an example-- French definitely misrepresents GZ following TM 'with his truck', GZ stopped his truck to watch TM from a stationary position. French then mischaracterizes events as GZ pursiuing or even stalking TM, so that GZ put TM 'in a tough spot'-- that's BS and it should be exposed as such. As I understand your comments you don't deny GZ followed TM to continue to report to the SFD dispatcher, you conclude that doing so was right and proper and good judgment. I draw a different conclusion.But other commenters deny the fact GZ 'followed' TM or otherwise mischaracterize what GZ did; that should be rebutted with the facts IMO.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

I can't get the hearings on CSPAN. ??? Maybe they are delayed?

[Ignatz]

-- This information has been out there. Why don't you know about it.--

Jane he does know about it.
He's more than just clueless, he's profoundly dishonest and makes believe it doesn't exist.

One can only conclude from his behavior that he makes reality subservient to his ideology and that his ideology is so wrapped up in his personality that it almost forms his identity.
Somebody should come up with a sophomoric term for it.

[Rob Crawford]

Insty (LUN) links to an interesting story that I find hilarious, in a way.

Why are people so worked up over St. Skittles? Because of government propaganda.

[Rob Crawford]

Somebody should come up with a sophomoric term for it.

A BuBu Cluster?

[Ignatz]

--Evidence that they are left-leaning?--

You need a new plumb line.

[Thomas Collins]

Good response, boyle. Divert attention from your not wanting to answer those questions.

[centralcal]

Janet - I have it streaming right now. There is a link on the C-Span start page.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

here's a link - http://oversight.house.gov/hearing/the-irs-systematic-delay-and-scrutiny-of-tea-party-applications/

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

Thanks, centralcal.

[Marlene]

Wow,TC,Jane,Dave...what is going on with the Rakes guy they found dead in Lincoln,MA? Whitey's gang used his liquor store as an HQ in Southie.Isn't Lincoln out by you Jane?

[Thomas Collins]

Anyway, I have a question for all JOMers: What do you think the odds are that boyle or bunkerbuster have in their lives ever made the type of effort on behalf of an African American that Zimmerman did on behalf of Sherman Ware?

[NK]

Today's IRS hearings. This is now a really BFD in my opinion. Issa has testimony from long-time IRS supervisor for nonprofit orgs, Carter Hull, that Lerner and the IRS General Counsel hijacked TP applications from his review and sent them to the GC's office. The GC is one of exactly TWO-- that's TWO political appointees in the IRS. So Obummer's appointee GC works with Lerner to ID and stall TP applications? and the other appointee (a Dem appointed by Bush) takes dozens of meetings at the WH at the same time period. This effin' stinks to high heaven.

[Thomas Collins]

I didn't realize Rakes showed up dead, marlene. I'll be interested to see whether Howie Carr thinks that is a message to the jury or just a coincidence.

[boyle]

No evidence. They're both jacked-in to the efficacy of the system. Totally invested, just like 80-90% of you.

Now if's relativity you are suggesting, they're to YOUR left, but most everyone else is as well.

[Dave (in MA)]

Marlene, I heard about that this AM on the Boston sports station WEEI. Lincoln is actually a lot closer to Boston than it is to Sturbridge, and is the home of Whitey's pal, the plagiarist Mike Barnicle. Depending on which source you read, Rakes is either a "key witness" or just someone on the Ortiz witness list who wasn't expected to testify.

[Ignatz]

TC,
Some of their best friends are African American.
They see Denzel and Will Smith and that big fat guy that played Idi Amin all the time.

[Jane]

Closer to Rocco I think Marlene. I haven't been to Lincoln in years. It's a high brow wealthy community, next to Concord.

So who had him killed? Whitey is toast, so is it revenge?

[Ignatz]

--This effin' stinks to high heaven.--

Yes, but Barry is not a crook.