Not Guilty

Common sense prevails in the jury room, but will it prevail on the mean streets of Miami?

Comments

[Jane -walk like an Egyptian]

I actually think the jury instructions were standard JWest. Ridiculous, but standard.

[pagar]

WOW, woke up to great news from the Zimmerman jury and the GREAT Pieces Clarice wrote.
Beautiful Day!

[Account Deleted]

Clarice,

Thank you for another great Pieces. I doubt the House will formally impeach the POSAG but I don't doubt that he will continue to be impeached by reality on a daily basis. Six women in Florida impeached him as well as Obama yesterday and the process is going to continue until both of them are just unhappy memories.

[peter]

Relieved by the outcome, but the long march Demmedia commie rats will never cease to fan the flames of racial tension when it is in their interest. I am hoping GZ gets a really good attorney to start a RICO action against ABC, CNN, CBS and NBC.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

Thanks for the Robert Zimmerman link, daddy...& your posts. Very good. Wow.

DrJ - I grew up with the old 100th too - we called it the Doxology. It was at the end of every Sunday service.

[Clarice]

Thank you all. Some, like Roger LSimon say this verdict was a loss toObama. I don't see it that way. Hw and Holder stirred this up to bring to the 2012 election an unprecedented black turnout. He got what he wanted and can now return again to his above it all ain't racial polarizing bad mode.

The nation's not ready for impeaching him, I think, but Holder is worth a shotl

[Jack is Back!]

Thanks to Clarice for another masterPieces.

The anger from the black community, especially the spoiled sports stars, tells me that they believe its their job to kill toung black children, not whitey's.

[jwest]

After listening and reading the reactions to the verdict, it's apparent that blacks think there should be exceptions to the law in cases like this.

These statements should be used to eliminate blacks from future juries for cause.

[pagar]

"tells me that they believe its their job to kill toung black children,"

http://www.soopermexican.com/2013/07/14/in-513-days-between-trayvon-dying-and-the-zimmerman-trial-verdict-11106-blacks-have-been-murdered-by-other-blacks/

[Extraneus]

So who should Zimmerman sue first?

[centralcal]

Don't know who he should sue first, but definitely he should include several media outlets!

[DebinNC]

John Nolte has an excellent timeline today showing numerous pivotal media misrepresentations of the case. Al Sharpton and his MSNBC show feature prominently, and there's no telling what incendiary garbage he spewed on his syndicated radio show. Al's only 58 with decades of rabble-rousing left in him.

[OldTimer]

I hate to promote anything CNN has to offer, but I'm going to send daddy's 5:09 AM post interview to as many potential viewers as the next 24 hours allows. The contrast with a polite, intelligent and articulate Zimmerman family member and a smug, racial-grievance-media spokesman is well noted. Piers Morgan is a nasty piece of work and deserves every ounce of opprobrium he's earned...

[Account Deleted]

"So who should Zimmerman sue first?"

I believe he will go for an immunization hearing first, regarding his own status and justifiable homicide. The next step step will be the sanctions hearings against Creepy Ass Corey and her henchmen and the outcome of those hearings may open up the path to success for a wrongful prosecution suit. The defamation suits against media could be concurrent but he might want to wait until the sanctions are levied prior to filing.

[Danube on iPad]

"But the Zimmerman's lawyers nevertheless found it necessary to bring evidence supporting their client's claim to have acted in self defense."

As we have known all along, you are horribly confused about the meaning and operation of the burden of proof. And I'm content to let you stew in it.

[Beester]

From a long time lurker...thanks once more to this "brilliance" of JOMers. You've created a 21st century salon that I return to again and again for inspiration, information and assurance that there is hope for decency and good will in our republic.

All blessings to the Zimmerman family. Stephanie, I'm stealing your quip.

[Ignatz]

I don't find the expression of the idea or the idea itself that Trayvon Martin got what he deserved disgraceful or even objectionable at all.
That he got precisely what he deserved is the very essence of the idea of self defense.

If you cause great bodily harm or give someone reason to believe you will the law and basic morality say you deserve whatever you get.

[Danube on iPad]

All the usual suspects are doing the usual whining this morning. Ben Jealous of the NAACP is calling on Holder to bring federal criminal charges (hate crime) against Zimmerman. Mark Eric Dyson is particularly hysterical and incoherent.

Let' em whine.

[Captain Hate]

FNS continues to show the picture of Saint Traytable from years ago. Anybody thinking Ailes is on "our side" is sadly mistaken.

Fat Boy Rove is about to get his clock cleaned on comprehensive immigration reform by Kristol

[Captain Hate]

Kristol is slattering Jane Harmon who pulled the "in the shadows; I'm the child of immigrants" garbage.

[narciso]

Yes, Captain, Rupert is in Top Men category, here.

[riki tikki tavi]

"I don't find the expression of the idea or the idea itself that Trayvon Martin got what he deserved disgraceful or even objectionable at all."

Then you are fucked up beyond all recognition. But I don't believe it.

What's fucked up is that you'd say it just to be accepted. Sad.

[Ignatz]

--What's fucked up is that you'd say it just to be accepted. Sad.--

Since the only views voiced were that the expression of the idea was either disgraceful or objectionable, your assertion it was made for the purpose of acceptance is illogical and kinda retarded.
If I'd wanted acceptance I would have said it was deplorable but legal. Idiot.

Your editing of my comment, which ignores the rationale I gave for the comment, namely, that the very essence of the doctrine of self defense means, inescapably, that when someone employs self defense against an attacker the attacker gets what he deserves also demonstrates you're dishonest.

A stupid liar, now that's effed up.

[bgates]

Iggy, Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin, but that doesn't imply that Martin deserved to die. He deserved to be arrested and convicted of assault. Unfortunately (at least in this circumstance), people don't always get what they deserve.

I wish Martin was still alive - and in prison.

[riki tikki tavi]

Bullshit. Sound and fury...bullshit. I wish i could say your comment was just retarded. You'd have an excuse of sorts.

[boris]

"people don't always get what they deserve ..."

Well in my case let's hope not.

[boris]

"I wish i could say ..."

Something sensible?

[boris]

"that doesn't imply that Martin deserved to die"

Martin was willfully putting GZ's life at risk. If Martin went for the gun and said what GZ claimed then Martin turned it into 1 lives 1 dies situation.

Hard to argue with what he deserved at that point since it was his choice.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

Hah!, boris.
Reminds me of this quote from Pride & Prejudice - "Mary wished to say something very sensible, but knew not how."

[narciso]

I know this breaks my Denton embargo, but it is worthy of the previous thread;

[Enlightened]

So we have the usual suspects screaming for the DOJ to file federal civil suit against GZ. When the case started it was simple case of White kills unarmed innocent black child. Nothing racial about that. And then the half white/half black CIC emotes that the victim could have been his son, albeit how half white/half black produces an all black child is a moot point. And then oops- seems that the White Murderer turns out to be only Half White (similar to the CIC) and voila'- we have a new category of ethnicity the White Hispanic. No matter- the behind the scenes cast of promiment black leaders and their cabal of race baiters expend copious amounts of time, money and influence to prosecute the White Hispanic Murderer. The State is in collusion, and seemingly throw the case, even declaring This Is Not A Race Issue and after making sure an almost all White jury is selected so that when the obvious Not Guilty verdict is determined, the
cabal can again rile against the Racist Jury, The Racist Murderer, The Injustice Served to Another Black Person and now we must file a Federal Civil Lawsuit against The White Hispanic, allthough the victims own attorney said this not about race.

And through all of this, Black people have put a bounty on GZ's head, have repeatedly threatened to kill him, have given out his address, his SS# and other personal information in the name of Justice.

Really? This is a war on Blacks? This is Thug Life- and even top Black Celebrities have no problem fanning the flames and calling for a man's murder.

That is some fabulous Hope and Change this monster has ushered into America.

[Ignatz]

--Bullshit.--

I stand refuted.

--Iggy, Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin, but that doesn't imply that Martin deserved to die. He deserved to be arrested and convicted of assault.--

Respectfully disagree bgates. Despite what people often say about legislating morality the law is and always had been essentially a moral code.
The law supplies alternate resolutions for a brutal attack by one citizen upon on another.

If the attacker is fortunate, the person he is attacking will be stronger and merely beat the crap out of him before he's arrested. He deserves the beating and the arrest.

If the perp is unfortunate he'll pick on a small, defenseless person who may be armed. When that person is unable to subdue and restrain the attacker and the police do not show up in time the victim is given the legal and moral right to, if necessary kill the attacker to preserve himself. If the attacker does not desist he deserves whatever force the victim can apply.
If he's having a good day the victim will miss or shoot him int the arm and he'll be arrested.
If he's having a bad day he will be killed.

In either case he deserved the results of whatever force was needed to prevent his attack from continuing. You make a choice and both criminal law and moral law say that if the consequences are deemed not excessive you received what you deserved.

[Ignatz]

I suppose I should point out that a result can be regrettable and even tragic and still be deserved.

The old Greek playwrights made quite a living out of combining exactly such tragedy and just desserts from regrettable decisions.

[riki tikki tavi]

" I stand refuted"

Should have read; 'I slouch, refuted' Your standing therefore, has been refuted.

[boris]

"a result can be regrettable and even tragic and still be deserved ..."

On a question of legal sentence, suppose Martin angry at having been "profiled" pursued GZ to beat him up, attacked, saw the firearm, took it from GZ and shot him with it.

His defense "I saw the gun and knew I had to kill him or he'd kill me".

1st, 2nd or manslaughter?

[Stephanie]

1st with aggravating circumstances too for starting the altercation. Warrants the death penalty in Fla too

[bgates]

Hard to argue with what he deserved at that point

No it isn't.

Despite what people often say about legislating morality the law is and always had been essentially a moral code.

The law of self defense concerns the morality of the actions of the person defending himself, not the actions of his attacker. There are also laws concerning assault and attempted murder, and our agreed-upon moral code for those offenses does not carry a death penalty.

When that person is unable to subdue and restrain the attacker and the police do not show up in time the victim is given the legal and moral right to, if necessary kill the attacker to preserve himself

The victim, like anyone else, always had the right to preserve his own life. He can shoot someone to prevent his own death; he can flee alone from a burning building to prevent his own death. That principle does not touch the question of whether other people deserve to get shot or burned.

The law attempts to give criminals what they deserve by imposing penalties on them. The law does not consider getting beaten up or shot while committing a crime to be a penalty, so there is no provision in the law to modify the penalty for a crime based on whether a victim shot or beat up his assailant.

[Kathy Kattenburg]

I linked to you, Tom. You'll find it at the very end of my post:

http://notthesingularity.com/5826/my-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-verdict/

[Account Deleted]

Quick, TM, ask her how much she wants for taking down the link and file an extortion charge.

[Account Deleted]

Quick, TM, ask her how much she wants for taking down the link and file an extortion charge.

[narciso]

It's nice to know she has learned nothing from the exercise,

[Ignatz]

--He can shoot someone to prevent his own death; he can flee alone from a burning building to prevent his own death. That principle does not touch the question of whether other people deserve to get shot or burned.--

Of course it does.

de·serve
[ di zúrv ]

merit: to have earned or be worthy of something.

In the eyes of the law you merit killing, you have earned being killed, you are worthy of killing if you threaten to or do inflict great bodily harm or death on another; IOW you deserve it.

The argument that the legal penalty for aggravated assault isn't death is specious on two fronts.

1. We do not know that TM's intentions were not murderous, in which case the legal penalty might very well have been death.
The authorized use of deadly force for a beating or threatened beating implicitly recognizes this.

2. Self defense occurs when the niceties of legal procedure are unavailable. What is deserved on a blood soaked sidewalk is not necessarily identical to what is deserved after the cuffs are on and the lawyers in place.

[boris]

"No it isn't"

Yes it is.

You seem to conflate legal penalty to the concept of what an assailant "deserves".

If at some point Martin decided to kill GZ there simply is no rational way to dispute that bringing about his own demise was "deserved".

Either that or we have a language problem here.

[boris]

The proper context is to imagine at the instant Martin decided to kill GZ only one could survive.

Which one "deserved" to lose?

[The New And First Straight Zorro]

(yawn) Hey Janet, show us your hooters?

[riki tikki tavi]

I think we can all take some comfort in that no one in his right mind is going to see SYG as a green light to all the poorly endowed who seek to align themselves with Zim

His is a cautionary tale to anyone foolish enough to push the envelope of Law to the breaking point. It won't bring Trayvon back, but Zim's life is now verklempt.

He may be subject to federal civil rights indictment, but surely will have a mechanics-lien on all his income due to the certain judgement for the plaintiff in the civil trial. His life is over.

Sometimes there is more justice in a life sentence than in the death penalty.

[Account Deleted]

Look - a complete idiot who doesn't know that a self defense verdict in Florida carries immunity from civil claims regarding the death.

We just don't see that level of ignorance and stupidity here at JOM more than ten times per day so I thought I'd point it out.

[Porchlight]

Thank you, Rick for underlining that little treat.

[riki tikki tavi]

So, it's all back to normal for Zim? I thought I might point out that you're ten times dumber than Ignatz.

[Ignatz]

--So, it's all back to normal for Zim?--

Personally I would hope the poor guy can mulct the state and his other tormentors for the hell he was unnecessarily put through, so that things are not back to normal whatsoever.

--I thought I might point out that you're ten times dumber than Ignatz.--

Hmmm. If pointing out an error on your part means Rick B is way dumb, I'm afraid to think what it means about you.

What would it mean if he were to point out you were right about something?
Guess that will have to remain one of those eternal mysteries.

[Jackie]

shut up porch. nobody likes a brownnoser.

[riki tikki tavi]

Had to laugh when O'mara said they did receive donations from White Supremacists, but they returned them if they included epithets.

How much did he get? Anyone know?

[Enlightened]

I'm so glad that f**cking idiots like KK find the truth nauseating, but have no ptoblem whatsoever with death threats against the jury and Zimmerman.

The State had more money, more connections, the media outright lying for their side and they could not disprove Self Defense.

So - ok to kill 7 more people as Justice For Trayvon.

You KK are a nauseating, media fed, ignorant excuse of a human being. You must feel a real kinship with the celebrities spewing their 8th grade intellectual prowess of not even bothering with facts.

[Kathy Kattenburg]

LOL, "Enlightened." That was gratifying. :-)

[riki tikki tavi]

It is gratifying to hear praise from Caesar.

[Jackie]

@ 3:44 - a local news commentator said that it was seven figures. Cool, huh?

[Ignatz]

Caesar was prosecuting Zimmerman.
Who has the left been trying to bury and who have they praised?

[boris]

Three blind mice
See how they spin

[riki tikki tavi]

You are still a little confused Ignatz.

[boris]

You are still a little rodent tavi

[Jackie]

Leave Caeser out of it. KK have me mystified enough already. Banjo music, please?

[riki tikki tavi]

O'Mara also said Zdawg needed about $120k for a 'fair trial'.

Seriously. He said that. I sat on a criminal trial last week. We found the poor sap not guilty for similar reasons. I was sure the defendant was paying a private atty because he fought like a pit-bull, but he was a Public Defender. A fair trial can be reasonably priced. But I think many here don't assess whether the trial is fair until the verdict has been reached. Winning is the most important thing. Everything else in the system which doesn't parrot their pov is unAmerican.

[Cecil Turner]

Amazing how many lefties (with notable exceptions like Jeralyn Meritt) think trying to railroad an innocent man is respectable.

IMNSHO, "disgraceful" is a pretty good descriptor for both the prosecution and its many cheerleaders.

[Jackie]

Those would've been original lines, Cecil, three weeks ago.

[maryrose]

The trolls come out of the woodwork when the media and the race hustlers take it on the chin. No wonder Sharpton is squealing like a stuck pig. It's Tawana Brawley and deja vu all over again.
To my way of thinking this case and all the Obama scandals and over-reach and lawlessness of him and Holder is proof that the the pendulum is swinging back from left to right. We are winning the culture war. That is why the outrage continues. States are taking the abortion laws into their own hands. Victories in Ohio Wisconsin and Texas. We are beating them at their own came and they hate it and us.

[Another Bob]

Is there an automatic immunity from civil prosecution? Thought I read a cboldt comment at TL that the 'justifiable' part of justifiable homicide gets relitigated using the different standard of proof.

Perhaps I read it incorrectly?

[riki tikki tavi]

Dang. I am pretty dumb. Why would I expect you people to like the idea of a Public Defender?

mea culpa

[boris]

It's not that lefties don't believe Trayvon took the long way "home" and was snooping ... they don't care.

It's not that lefties don't believe Trayvon circled back to confront GZ ... they don't care.

It's not that lefties don't believe Trayvon sucker punched GZ ... they don't care.

It's not that lefties don't believe Trayvon knocked GZ to the ground and proceeded to pound his head on the sidewalk ... they don't care.

It's not that lefties don't believe Trayvon went for the gun ... they don't care.

Trayvon was a teenage black child and GZ shot him. That's all they really care about.

Why? Dunno but suspect it has something to do with the civil right's crusade being part of the glorious past and this was an opportunity to pretend they could stand in its radiance.

[Jackie]

oh, maryrose, get a life, you old toothless goober. YOU aren't beating ANYTHING, except for your gums. BTW, I meant that in the nicest way, granny. Gimme a smile.

[maryrose]

Jackie:
Spoken like a true loser.Nothing positive to add. In beating Zimmerman's head into the ground Martin was commiting a felony. Unfortunately for him that act of uncontrolled and unbridled aggression got him killed.

[Clarice]

No surprise, KK linked to this--where do you suppose all these idiotic lowlifes came from?

Prof Adler at Volokh explains why there really won't be any federal charges and Rick, I believe GZ already has a pending defamation suit against NBC--the most culpable media whores who triggered the Trayvon didn't do nothin' fairy tale and who doctored the pictures of his injuries.

It's hard to sue for unlawful prosecution--But I think Corey and the Republic Governor who appointed this stupid witch should both suffer career suicide for what they did.

.

[Enlightened]

Well how can the race baiting coalition stop now? Someone saw the police report said Zimmerman, White Male shooter and Martin, Black teenage victim- It was game on, and oops that darn mug shot of Zimmerman just didn't look "White" thus white hispanic is born. It has been nothing but lies ever since.

[Jackie]

(yawn)

[Enlightened]

Moron celeb: Why aren't any Pro-Lifers protesting Trayvons death?

Seriously? Incredible.

[Account Deleted]

Another Bob,

I don't believe it's litigated before a jury. Branca was indicating it was not a high standard issue and O'Mara stated he was looking forward to it.

Clarice,

I really wonder about the difficulty of the unlawful prosecution case. You've got the chief of police and original prosecutor as well as the prosecutor's IT person on the Brady issue for the plaintiff. I'm curious as to whether Seminole County or the State of Florida will be at the top on the suit. I'm also wondering about a civil rights claim on Zimmerman's behalf.

The stench from Obama, Holder, Scott, Bondi and Crazy Ass Corey really deserves a complete airing.

[Jackie]

You're a reactionary, Ballard. Get a grip.

[Enlightened]

DOJ to "review" the Zimmerman case - Breaking

[Ignatz]

--I really wonder about the difficulty of the unlawful prosecution case.--

With DeeDee and TM's mamma and the dopey witness who saw the shadows it would be difficult to establish lack of probable cause.
That is generally held to be either a complete lack of evidence or the existence of only evidence contrary to the prosecution.
And while malice can be implied from a lack of probable cause it's hard to establish without some demonstrable personal or extraordinary animus.

Not impossible but not likely, IMO.

[Cecil Turner]

I doubt it's feasible, but defunding the DOJ civil rights division and pursuing unlawful prosecution would be worthwhile. Both were actively counterproductive to the causes they supposedly champion in this case.

On a related note, I see the DOJ just announced they were considering a federal prosecution . . . I guess they figure they haven't trampled on GZ's civil rights enough yet.

[Threadkiller]

Will GZ pursue civil litigation against TM parents? They knew that TM was a threat and did nothing to warn the community they dropped him into.

[riki tikki tavi]

Zdawg better keep the same slinky, covert persona for the duration.
He doesn't venture out of his rathole, except in disguise.

I don't expect he will want to expose himself any more than he has already

[fdcol63]

Perhaps some responsible leakers will leak more information about Trayvon Martin's sordid past and his family's negligence in properly controlling him.

Then compare and contrast his character and contributions to society compared to that of George Zimmerman.

This will be necessary to counter the "civil rights martyr" mythology that the race baiters and liberals will try to create for TM.

The Martin family could avoid this if they just accept the jury verdict and slink back under the rocks they came out of, but if not, scorched earth will be necessary to fight them, the race hustlers, and Obama/Holder.

[N. Y. Nick]

@ 5:11 - Chronic fuck-ups. Damned bumbling, incompetent fools. They've destabilized this country and more than half of the other countries on this planet with their meddling into matters which are none of their damned business, which they know nothing about and which they're unfit to address.

Unless you're an imbecile, you know that it is going to be only a matter of time be-fore they pull an extremely irresponsible and catastrophic stunt that is going to get [a lot] of people killed. It's unavoidable.

[Army of Davids]

Really sad situation.

Very sad for both the Martin and Zimmerman family

Trayvon was no saint...but he did not deserve to die...still this seems to be obviously the right outcome.

Obama, media, Democrats....just horrible behavior.

[Danube on iPad]

"So we have the usual suspects screaming for the DOJ to file federal civil suit against GZ."

No. They're screaming for a federal criminal prosecution.

[Danube on iPad]

"I think we can all take some comfort in that no one in his right mind is going to see SYG as a green light to all the poorly endowed who seek to align themselves with Zim"

Does this moron still believe that the SYG law plaid any role whatsoever in the prosecution or defense of this case? How dumb can he be?

[narciso]

Well it's a teachable lesson, no matter what the facts turn out to be, they cling to their confortable mindsets, it's too much a stretch to do anything else, it would be like Harry Mudd's androids.

[Extraneus]

It may seem like ten trolls, but it's actually only three or so. (Anne has her Sybil thing going on.)

Still, it's great when lefties show their true colors. Imagine how many people out there are aghast at their drooling blood-lust for an innocent man.

May they all be cold-cocked and have their heads bashed into a sidewalk by a thug in the night.

[riki tikki tavi]

You 'plaid' me, numbnutz

[boris]

"Trayvon was no saint...but he did not deserve to die..."

True only until Trayvon decided to kill GZ. At that moment he created a situation only one could expect to survive. The one who "deserved" to live was not Trayvon.

[Extraneus]

I don't think he was trying to kill Zimmerman. I won't link any, but there are dozens of videos online of thugs cold-cocking unsuspecting victims and guffawing as they involuntarily convulse on the ground. It's apparently a barrel of laughs to have your friends take pics as you also piss on the guy's face. Much street cred is gained in this manner.

I think Martin was trying to knock Zimmerman out and take a pic of him with his phone.

[mockmook]

Trying to knock some one out is the same as trying to murder them.

How do you calibrate the blow to only knock them out?

[Kathy Kattenburg]

Trayvon did not "decide to kill" Zimmerman. He decided to confront a strange man who was following him. When the strange man -- Zimmerman -- saw he was losing the fight he had started, he shot Trayvon. Trayvon was the one acting in self-defense, not Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had minded his own goddamn business, stayed in his truck, and not decided to play his favorite game of cops and robbers, Trayvon would be alive today.

[Janet --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...]

I guess the streets belong to Trayvon. The Zimmermans of the world need to mind their own business, stay in their vehicles & homes & lock the doors.

Trayvon can use the "n" word & call people "creepy-ass crackers"...& it is cool.
If the Zimmermans of the world have ever in their life said an inappropriate word...well then, they are racists. Jesse & Al deem them so.

[Dave (in MA)]

Smashing a guy's nose flat and bashing his head into the concrete because he's walking near you = "self defense". I see.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Zimmerman did not "decide to kill" Trayvon. He decided to keep tabs on a strange man who was acting suspiciously in his neighborhood. When the strange man -- Trayvon -- saw he was beating a man who had a gun, he told Zimmerman he was going to die. Zimmerman was the one acting in self-defense, not Trayvon. If Trayvon had minded his own goddamn business, gone home when he had a clear path and didn't double back, and not decided to play his favorite game of gangsta smash the ass cracker, Trayvon would be alive today.

[Kathy Kattenburg]

The streets belong to all of us. Trayvon had just as much right to be where he was as anyone else. It wasn't illegal for Zimmerman to follow him, but it also was not necessary or wise. If I had called the 911 dispatcher and been told that they did not need me to follow the person I was reporting, *I would not follow him.* It seems to me Zimmerman is morally if not legally responsible for the events he set in motion.

[boris]

"I think Martin was trying to knock Zimmerman out and take a pic of him with his phone"

Until he saw the gun and went for it saying "now you're going to die". That's the moment they entered a situation where only one could expect to survive.

Who created that situation?

GZ by getting out of his truck ? ... or Trayvon knocking GZ on the ground and trying to "knock him out" ?

Kaka wants to claim it was GZ getting out of his truck ... but Trayvon had lost him at that point. So GZ could not put them in that 1 lives 1 dies situation, only Trayvon could.

The point of concealed carry is that trying to knock someone out can get the assailant killed.

[boris]

"If I had called the 911 dispatcher and been told that they did not need me to follow the person I was reporting, *I would not follow him.*"

The non emergency operator asked GZ where the suspicious individual had gone. GZ got out of the truck to see where he went, not in hot pursuit.

The English language allows that to be called "following" but it's not the same thing as hot pursuit.

Trayvon had lost GZ at that point and circled back to confront GZ, knock him down, bang his head against the sidewalk, then when he realized GZ was armed an still conscious (and now dangerous), he decided to kill GZ.

[Barbara]

When the strange man -- Trayvon -- saw he was beating a man who had a gun, he told Zimmerman he was going to die.

Why would he do that?