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August 27, 2013

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Extraneus

By whom?

Good point.

narciso

Still working toward the stupidest point on the subject;

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139351/john-mueller/erase-the-red-line

NK

Icing OBL wasn't adverse to the Islamist movement... OBL was dead to them already. All revolutionary movements had internecine blood letting -- but that doesn't detract from the fact they are all revolutionaries. Obummer didn't assasinate an 'Islamist', he killed an obstacle to his own agenda. In any conflict between islamists and anti-islamist forces, Obummer has sided with the Islamists-- I can't think of any exceptions.

narciso

What's in the watercoolers over there;

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2013/08/27/washpost-critic-christians-threaten-lives-authors-casting-jesus-bad-ligh

Rob Crawford
I still want to know what we are planning to attack.

Stuff. And things.

You know.

It'll all go "boom" and make for good video. Then President RICO will go on TV and tell us he's dealt with a grave danger to the United States and condemn Republicans for being divisive.

Account Deleted

Jane,

Typically it would be command and control centers and communication nodes followed by attempts to shut down military airports by cratering runways and destroy as many aircraft as can be found.

Assad will take the opportunity provided by the attack to massacre as many civilian supporters of the rebellion as possible. The MB/AQ will launch an attempt to retake areas recently lost and may have some short term success in doing so.

Should Syria knock down any US aircraft I wouldn't expect them to extend, Geneva Convention benefits to survivors nor to accord any such protection to Special Forces operators taken during the operation.

Rob Crawford
Should Syria knock down any US aircraft I wouldn't expect them to extend, Geneva Convention benefits to survivors nor to accord any such protection to Special Forces operators taken during the operation.

Why should they?

AFAICR, the GCs don't cover third parties engaging in hostilities.

Judy Miller

Dunderheads are focused on Syria. Misdirection takes focus off Russia.

Since the Cold War going out of business sale, the Bear has been trying to reinvent itself. What if this is all a Big Pic op? Do they want Russia drawn in before it completely emerges from hibernation? Iran would collapse. China is focused on internals like a shrinking economy. It's all good.

narciso

No, Special operators fall outside the Geneva Conventions, of course we are supposed to apply that to Gitmo detainees because.

Jim Miller

Just a reminder: During the 2008 campaign, Obama admitted that a genocide might be a consequence of his proposed policy in Iraq -- and was willing to accept that possibility.

matt

Remember, Erdogan decapitated the officer class. Half of the senior officers are still on trial years after their arrests.

Just by way of conversation, Megiddo is pretty close by just for fun's sake.

narciso

Yes, I recall that Jim, of course he pointed to the Congo, which is a nasty charnel house as it:


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-07-20-obama-interview_N.htm

Rob Crawford
Remember, Erdogan decapitated the officer class. Half of the senior officers are still on trial years after their arrests.

Thankfully that could never happen here!

NK

I'm with RobC@1:10 on this. This all looks like 'wag the dog' -- bombing from 5,000ft, smash some Syrian helos, the Legacy Media calls Obummer our Indo/Kenyan Napolean and attack Repubs, the NAACP throws rose pedals at his feet at the lincoln memorial on MLK speech day, shouting Hosanna, Hosanna...

Judy Miller

This from March 2013-sound familiar?

http://armscontrollaw.com/2013/03/19/chemical-warfare-allegations-in-syria-an-initial-assessment/

My quick take on these developments:

I am not convinced that the footage and pictures I have seen prove a CW attack;

There are no images of the site of the attack; just of some affected people. These people do not show outward symptoms of a CW attack. Definitely not mustard; definitely not a nerve agent.

There are far too many people, including non-medical staff, around the affected persons. Apart from a surgical mask, nobody wears any protective garment or gas masks. If there would have been a CW attack with one of the agents known (or believed) to be in Syria’s arsenal, then most of the people present would have been fatally or seriously contaminated.

I am deeply sceptical of allegations that the insurgents would have resorted to CW. There would have far greater propaganda benefits if they were to demonstrate to the world that they had overrun one of the storage or production facilities. In addition, insurgent spokespersons were very quick to deny the government allegation.
Regarding a case of a transfer to (and, hence, use by) surrogates of the Syrian government, I have already expressed my views on such a scenario.

Present-day battlefields are extremely toxic. Many materials may be propelled into the air and inhaled by bystanders. If some (toxic) chemical container were hit by a shell, then bystanders could be badly affected, as we have seen in a variety of recent internal conflicts (former Yugoslavia; Sri Lanka; Iraq; etc.). Bhopal reminds us of the large-scale effects of an industrial accident. Any investigation of the allegation must first exclude plausible alternative explanations.

maryrose

Jane:
Whatever target they hit ,Bammy as usual is a day late and a dollar short. It will not influence the ultimate outcome but will make Obama "feel good" about himself. China and Russia continue to be our enemies. Anyone not realizing this ,hasn't been paying attention.

Account Deleted

Matt,

Do you know if Erdogan instituted the command rotation necessary to keep his "new" generals from developing the personal ties with subordinates which are so very handy in a coup? I know he put in mullah-minders but the Egyptian example has to be a temptation, especially if Gazprom/KSA puts sweeteners in play.

henry

Matt, Shoebat had some thoughts along those lines.

GMax

if Gazprom/KSA puts sweeteners

If we have learned nothing else, we should understand the difference between "bought" and "staying bought" in the ME is wide ranging gulf.

maryrose

NK:
I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Domestically Obama is in a dumpster. How better to turn our attention away from his scandals-"he is ultimately responsible for all of them" and to try to look like he is doing something in foreign relations-also a disaster.
He's sent his lapdog Lew out to make threatening noises about the debt ceiling. Summers looks like the replacement for Bernanke. Busy rearranging the chairs on the Titanic., and golfing-always golfing.

Judy Miller

He must be born-again End-Timer to provide the ancient texts of Isaiah just because it mentions a city of anitquity, 'literally'.

It was all about the Israelite apostasy which led to their demise by first Babylonian, then finally Roman hands. It has nothing to do with today, except for those who wish it to be. The jews are still waiting for the Messiah two millennia later. Maybe he's not coming.

Cecil Turner

The Times has this part mostly right:

Presidents should not make a habit of drawing red lines in public, but if they do, they had best follow through. Many countries (including Iran, which Mr. Obama has often said won’t be permitted to have a nuclear weapon) will be watching.
Left unsaid--but clearly implied--is that the US has no real national interest in chemical weapons use, especially internally in Syria. The only real issue is the deliberate flouting of a presidential pronouncement. If there were any credibility left in the current administration's foreign policy, this would be a serious concern. As it is, not so much. (And the idea that Iran is even considering dismantling its nuke program is beyond laughable.)

I was heartened to see they're not claiming a national imperative to enforce the [feckless] UN Chapter VII security apparatus, or the Chemical Weapons Convention (to which Syria is not a signatory), or some overriding humanitarian concern for this particular method of mass murder in the mideast. I was less enthralled with their seeming support for an attack in a fit of Presidential pique, with no mention of authorization from Congress.

That said, I have little problem with blowing up any part of the recalcitrant regime that ran jihadists and materiel to our enemies in the Iraq war . . . it just isn't for the same reasons.

Janet  --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...

Oh...He's comin' alright. The first time was as Savior, the second time will be as King.

narciso

Are we struck about we come back to those same lands, first Egypt and now Syria,

The problem is Cecil, we seem to be going against the handlers, and in support of the actual jihadists,

NK

"...we seem to be going against the handlers, and in support of the actual jihadists,"
... and I submit that is no accident.

Coming back 2000 years later.... and also to judge.

Marlene

Anyone watching Carney's briefing? He insists this is only a response to the use of chemical weapons. RobC's answer to Jane is a better answer than anything Carney said. I'm not feeling reassured.

Rob Crawford

Marlene -- generally, snark and satire will be more accurate than anything Carney says.

Jane

So Carney thinks Syria is an "imminent threat' to us. What is that threat? And when does he think it will happen?

NK

'snark and satire?' that's all Carney ever says. Oh... those and lies, of course.

narciso

Well if one were to take the issue seriously;


http://therightscoop.com/ted-cruz-outlines-what-our-approach-should-be-to-syria-says-its-not-lobbing-a-few-missiles-at-assad/

Janet  --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...

Jim Letten & John McCain both use the term Hobbit to cut opponents down. What is that about? Is it an inside Washington term?

Jane

"Whatever target they hit ,Bammy as usual is a day late and a dollar short. It will not influence the ultimate outcome"

call me paranoid Maryrose but I think there will be consequences - bad ones to an attack by us.

narciso

As Harry Pierce say, 'of needs must'

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/27/carney-why-no-our-response-to-syria-has-nothing-to-do-with-the-regime-change-weve

Sue

So where did Syria get these WMDs? From neighboring Iraq?

narciso

Well that would be an ironic turn of events, like the Baltimore nuke coming from Israeli components, but the hand of the BioPreporat,
Alibek's outfit likely had something to do with it,

James D.

As loathsome as Zero is, his sycophants like Carney are - in some ways - even worse.

narciso

Ah, this couldn't possibly go wrong;

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/27/muslims-join-50th-anniversary-march-washington/

maryrose

JamesD:
Agreed. I can no longer stomach Obama or Carney.
Jane:
Obama is so feckless,I bet he hasn't even considered what possible retaliation could occur. I am not confident in Magig Hat or Preezy.
Cecil: An excellent comment as always and right on the mark>
Happy Birthday Glenda!
Also belated HB to Chaco.

NK

Toadies are particularly loathsome.

Ranger

Did anyone bother to ask where the legal authority for this attack was coming from?

Danube on iPad

Common Article 3 of the Conventions of 1949 generally requires humane treatment of all persons in captivity. Which is a far cry from saying Syria gives a damn about it.

Jane

"Did anyone bother to ask where the legal authority for this attack was coming from?"

Yes. Jay Carney replied that this is an "Imminent threat". He didn't tell us what the threat was, of course.

Rob Crawford
Jim Letten & John McCain both use the term Hobbit to cut opponents down. What is that about? Is it an inside Washington term?

As I said at Insty, it suggests a cultural ignorance and arrogance among the permanent ruling class. Hobbits are little, rural, have simple tastes and are centered on their families -- that, I believe, is what seeds the permanent ruling class's contempt.

On the flip side, they came out ahead every time someone threatened them, and while they tolerated a tyrant for a while, eventually...

"Awake! Fear! Fire! Foes! Awake!"

(ISTR that horn-call also had a bit that was "awake fire foes fear" as in "wake up, courage", but cannot find anything online to support that.

DrJ

Ranger, I was wondering the same thing about legal authority. "Imminent threat" doesn't work for me.

Ignatz

I've got my lamp out in broad daylight searching for the lefty who will challenge Barry's obviously extra constitutional reasons for committing acts of war without congressional approval with even one tenth the fury they wailed about Bush's relatively constitutionally compliant wars.

Reckon I'll have the same luck as Diogenes.

Marlene

Carney also said something weird,something about we have to respond to the use of chemical weapons,but in the aftermath of the response,we don't know what the Assad regime will do with their chemical weapons.So,the chemical weapons aren't a target and there isn't a plan to secure them? Gawd,I hope I'm not the only one confused!

Elliott

With his aspirations for Egypt in tatters, perhaps the President can shoe-horn the "Google guy" into office in the other constituent of the quondam United Arab Republic.

Meanwhile, the title of this thread and the nature of the conversation on that linked above, produced in me the realization that, when Obama ultimately holds forth on the necessity of decriminalizing marihuana, his oratorical tour de force cannot but be called "A Time for Chooming."

Ignatz

We couldn't find and kill something as large as a SCUD launcher, so the idea we could find and destroy something as small and easily dispersed as chemical weapons without a wholesale invasion is kinda kooky.

We don't have, and almost certainly never will, the kind of intelligence that would even make it possible for SpecOps teams to grab more than some portion, probably a small one, of them.

Rob Crawford
So,the chemical weapons aren't a target and there isn't a plan to secure them?

I suspect this is a high-intellectual deep-think "tactic" to assure Assad that they're not going to remove his ultimate authority.

It's certainly incoherent enough to appeal to John Kerry.

Beasts of England

So, what are we "striking???"

A manly pose.

More precisely, a mom-jeans pose.

narciso

This is the way, my fishwrap presented it;


http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/26/3586696/kerry-to-make-statement-on-syria.html

Ranger

Not sure if this is related to Syria or not, but Obama's numbers in Gallup's three day running average have collapsed. On August 24th, his three day rolling average was 49% approval, 43% disapproval. Today it's 42% approval and 49% disapproval. That's a pretty massive swing in just three days.

Rob Crawford
We don't have, and almost certainly never will, the kind of intelligence that would even make it possible for SpecOps teams to grab more than some portion, probably a small one, of them.

That depends. Is there a group that Assad trusts enough to disperse the weapons with? Or are they all piled together where multiple groups can watch each other watching over them?

Ranger

Link to the Gallup site when you can download the data:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

narciso

Yes, he needs to find another 'squirrel'

Jane -May2014 Be there or Be Square

So from what I understand, Obama intends to attack Syria someplace, to tell Asaad he can't use chemical weapons. The war will last 4 hours.

Then when Asaad uses chemical weapons the next day what will we do?

narciso

And just on queue;

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/26/house-dems-seek-to-tax-gun-owners-with-new-bill/

*Bill in AZ*

"Today it's 42% approval and 49% disapproval. That's a pretty massive swing in just three days."

MOAR QE! will fix it. Taper up, get Dow back over 15k and the LIV muddle will go back to sleep since the Won is great and the market is above where it was when Booosh broke it.

NK

Dem Gun Grabber tax--

small fart* in a strong wind...

* apologies ladies for the colorful metaphor.

Rob Crawford
Then when Asaad uses chemical weapons the next day what will we do?

Well, the evidence will be equivocal.

narciso

'that was the swing, here's the swong'

narciso

Well I figure that Hezbollah would retaliate against coalition targets, both in Europe anf here, not to mention Israel, so they are not left out of the fun,

narciso

A belated Steyn entry;

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/356634/obamacares-hierarchy-privilege-mark-steyn

fdcol63

Remember way back in 2007 when Nancy Pelosi was going to show President Bush that Bashar al Assad was a man of peace who could be dealt with?

Rob Crawford
Remember way back in 2007 when Nancy Pelosi was going to show President Bush that Bashar al Assad was a man of peace who could be dealt with?

Remember her and others giving Code Stink a letter to Assad so they could pass through Syria on the way to give money and supplies to al'Qaeda forces in Iraq?

Rob Crawford
Well I figure that Hezbollah would retaliate against coalition targets, both in Europe anf here, not to mention Israel, so they are not left out of the fun,

Tea Parties.

Extraneus

What kind of guitar do you have there, Beasts?

Dublindave

So, we're at war with Syria.

Perhaps the Tea party and the Assad regime can join forces to vanquish their common enemy: President Obama.

Dublindave

Just learned the White house has set up 2 War rooms. One for Assad, the other for Ted Cruz.

Judy Miller

""Did anyone bother to ask where the legal authority for this attack was coming from?"

Yes. Jay Carney replied that this is an "Imminent threat". He didn't tell us what the threat was, of course."

Yeah. AUMF. You remember that soiled doc you used to worship because the high priest was of your tribe.

NK

Now now DD, I'm sure Tea Party Patriots will support Obummer JUST LIKE you Lefties supported Bush-Hitler.

fdcol63

I promise to give Obama the same level of support and respect that liberals, Dems, Code Pinkos, and people like DuDa gave to Bush.

Rob Crawford
I promise to give Obama the same level of support and respect that liberals, Dems, Code Pinkos, and people like DuDa gave to Bush.

If and only if he shows the same respect for US law as Bush did.

Steve

CC Online Poll: Should the US take Military Action against Syria?

http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2013/08/cc-online-poll-should-us-take-military.html

fdcol63
If and only if he shows the same respect for US law as Bush did.

Indeed.

NK

For me it's unconditional.. I'll support Obummer just like Code Pink did with GWB/Cheney/Rice. I guaranty it.

Ignatz

--Yeah. AUMF. You remember that soiled doc you used to worship because the high priest was of your tribe.-

I consider the Iraq war as fought a mistake, and possibly even a mistake in any form, but the fact is Saddam, even discounting the WMD issue, gave the international community more than enough justification to go to war with him over his repeated barbarities and his flouting of international law. The AUMF reflected that, which is why it was bipartisan.
Lefties like to run away from those facts for partisan reasons but they're still there when they come back.

In contrast there was no imminent threat in Libya nor is there one in Syria. Barry blatantly flouts the law and leftists respond with 'I know you are but what am I' and 'he started it' infantilisms.

Ignatz

No president of any party who unilaterally undertakes acts of war against another country under the blatantly false pretense that it somehow constitutes an imminent threat to the US deserves the support of a single American. He deserves tar and feathers.

Judy Miller

I see. You're using the OJ Simpson defense.

"Well, he was guilty of being an asshole"....hangman; do your duty.

Nick N.Y.

CNN - 7 to 1 say Syria not our concern.

Syrians have been killing everybody for
50 years. What goes around comes around.
Let those cretins exterminate themselves.

Danube on iPad

"Yeah. AUMF."

Nonsense. It won't remotely stretch that far. Nor will Obama even claim that it does.

daddy

I think if Obama and Reggie Love start playing Hearts, that'll mean its just a cruise missile launch on Assad's Palace.

If they play Cribbage I think that tells us O's launched a strike on the Serin Gas repositories.

And if it causes Iran to launch missiles at Israel, (per Drudges headline), then I'm guessing they'll bring out the Parcheesi board, since Obama's not smart enough to know how to play Bridge.

JIB

Read most of the thread and was sort of amazed that no one has mentioned the little skinny guy with a solid right hook and likes to fight inside those big arms - Israel.

What kind of "going to war with Syria and Iran and Hezbollah" calculus doesn't consider our friend and foe (if you're a Democrat or left wing nut job) since they are the most imminently geographically vulnerable to any counter-attack? Of course, knowing this regime, they probably think their intervention will teach those pesky Jews a lesson but will most likely bloody the wrong noses.

As Sebastian, in Twelfth Night would say,

"I prithee, vent thy folly somewhere else. Thou know’st not me."

Danube on iPad

"Well, he was guilty of being an asshole"

Actually, the jury found him guilty of kidnapping and armed robbery.

Go back and read the enumerated reasons set forth in the AUMF for going to war with Iraq. Check out the Dem Senators who voted for it. Once you've refreshed yourself, Dana, you'll be less likely to make a further fool of yourself.

Danube on iPad

My understanding of the constitution is that the C-in-C has the inherent power to do what it appears Obama is getting ready to do. The remedies are the ballot box or impeachment.

Thomas Collins

JiB, if what has been leaked today is what is really being planned, I think the aftermath will be an increased likelihood of war between Israel and Iran. After stating that Assad must go and chemical weapons are unacceptable (with SoS Kerry emphasizing the second point), three days of bombing are likely to leave Assad and the rebels still going back and forth, and will leave the chemical weapons for use by whoever has been using them. Imam Khameinei will be even more contemptuous of Sun Tzu Obama's bluster about the unacceptability of Iran having nuclear weapons. That leaves the Israelis no choice must to attack Iran unless the Mossad's underground war succeeds.

Beasts of England

Extraneous@3:59 - That's my Santa Cruz OM P/W. All time favorite acoustic. Hoover, et al., are tone monsters!

Judy Miller

"Actually, the jury found him guilty of kidnapping and armed robbery"

Good to know you're still behind the current event 8-Ball. You have been consistently wrong/out of touch/ill informed for some time now.

Brushup and ketchup.

JIB

daddy, et.al.,

Frederick has a new post up:)

Its about our day at the US Open which BTW caught everyone by surprise with the added security. Since the matches started at 11:00 they decided to open the gates to a horde of 10's of 1,000's at 10:30. What a disaster since for the 1st time they decided to install metal detectors. The back up was 2 hours for some people with bags.

To make it even more difficult, the Mets were playing Monday night and they shut the parking down at Citi Field so there was very limited parking at Corona Park.

Their website said no backpacks but evidently no one read the website. There were huge backpacks and saddle bags. The lines snake all the way up to the MTA platforms. What a zoo. It took us 1/2 hour to navigate and we were one of the first ones there.

But once inside, it is still one of the great sports experience available.

Thomas Collins

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/war_powers_belong_to_the_president

See above for John Yoo's summary of his view of the allocation of authority between Congress and the POTUS in respect of war powers. Yoo's view is consistent with DOT's views expressed at 5:05 PM. Congress's leverage is the power of the purse.

narciso

Then and now, of course if we had waited for Iran to use the nukes first;

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/NEWS/71129018

NK

OJ is in the Nevada slammer for a 10 count conviction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_robbery_case

NK

JiB-- my wife, daughter and I are going to the US Open sat and sun. Is it that crowded?

Rob Crawford
Congress's leverage is the power of the purse.

And the authority to declare war.

And the War Power Act. I get that Yoo is almost obligated to say it's unConstitutional, but it's the law. Undeclared, unsupported war AND a Constitutional crisis at the same time?

That's not Cloward-Piven, that's something Jerry Clower would call stupid.

Old Lurker

JiB, my guy friends still credit me with the best BDay present for my wife a few years ago. Tennis fan(atic) that she is, I took her to the semi and finals (men,women,doubles) of all four grand slams in one year. Box seats at that. What a year we had in 2008!

Thomas Collins

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/960315in.html

In the article linked above, Yoo summarized his views on the limited importance of Congress's power to declare war, and on the unconstitutionality of the War Powers Act. Of course there are those who have studied this area who disagree with Yoo. I happen to find Yoo persuasive. See below for a view contrary to Yoo's view on the importance of Congress's power to declare war.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/only_congress_can_declare_war

JIB

NK,

If you going for early matches then there will be lines. No one knew there would be heighten security with metal detectors, so there were unbelievable lines. But if you go for the afternoon and evening games there should be instant access.

Some fun out there. Big crowds even for the 1st day but then the tickets are cheaper.

JIB

OL,

Lucky sod! That is some great present, especially to nab Wimbledon tickets for the final. In London, those are usually syndicated out to the big banks in the City who decide who is lucky:) But since my family were the inside cover program advertisers for years I always had a way if I needed it. My problem was that even if I was living in London, whenever Wimbledon came around I was called to the continent or the ME or forbid India:(

Problem with tennis is that we all know who will be in the quarters and semis and have a damn good idea who will be in the finals. Not the same with golf or other sports. Tennis needs a 12 seed like VCU or Florida Gulf Coast at March Madness to make the finals much like Becker in Wimbledon. Not enough of the young guns get into the later rounds.

Rob Crawford
See below for a view contrary to Yoo's view on the importance of Congress's power to declare war.

Importance nothing. The Constitution says it is so; what it MEANS is for us to determine.

As far as I'm concerned it means anything except action against a truly imminent threat must be approved by Congress, the (theoretical) representatives of the voters. So it has to be explained to the people.

Obama didn't do that with Libya; there was no conceivable way the AUMF against al'Qaeda could be stretched to include providing air cover to AQ affiliates. His second "failure" to abide by the law should be his last; as Joe Biden said, if the president orders air strikes without consulting Congress, he should be impeached.

NK

JiB-- thanks for the info-- we get there gates open at 1000am and make a full day it. Personally, I'll spend an hour or more at practice courts, watch 1-2 outercourt matches, and on sat. my wife and I will even buy food court dinner and a Heineken and watch the evening match on the big screen.

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