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September 19, 2013

Comments

henry

Rove may be a genius. I don't know the best path to preventing Obamacare from ending the US economy. My concern with Rove is not extreme right vs merely right. My concern with Rove is that his genius is restricted to keeping his set of cronies at the trough in the endless crony vs crony wars of DC -- his genius does not include anything related to the freedom and prosperity of the American people.

Account Deleted

Henry,

Hear, hear.

Rove's select group of bathhouse billionaires and members of the Fascist Roundtable are carrion eaters interested in their place at the corpse. Taking a stand may irritate some indies for a moment but I believe the resistance will resonate as the horror of BOzocare becomes unavoidably apparent over the next nine months.

IMO - it's very important to stress there wasn't one Republican vote in support of the monstrosity. No Republican lied to Julia about her "free" birth control.

Steve

Sometimes I think those yelling the loudest in favor of such strategies like defunding Obamacare are actually a Fifth Column, a bunch of liberals stirring things up in hopes of watching the GOP self-destruct. Either that, or they're simply suicidal, wanting to take as many with them as they can.

I'm not a big Rove fan, as he got far more wrong than he got right, but like the proverbial clock, he's right on this one.

Thomas Collins

The choice is not between linking ObamaCare legislation to other appropriations and doing nothing. Boner could send a standalone bill to Harry suspending ObamaCare until 2019, and the GOP, in the 2014 elections, could run campaigns focused on the Senate Dems' failure to support suspension.

sbwaters

Did I misread Rove?

He says what to "don't" with no explanation of what to "do."

NK(tryin' again)

Henry/RickB-- Hear Hear Hear!!!
Steve-- I know the Rove tactics makes sense, but this is beyond politics now-- this is Americans v. Socialism- normal politics are over for me;

ThomasC@10:01-- 'Boner'??? calling Dr freud, Dr. freud... Dr. Sigmund Freud...

Thomas Collins

I read Rove the same way you do, sbw. Rove appears not to want to do anything that could highlight the Dem/GOP difference on ObamaCare for the 2014 elections.

Old Lurker test

Cross post LUN for rse from VDH.

Account Deleted

sbw,

I believe "lie back and think of money" sums up his "do" list. That's what his hedgehog herd does.

NK(tryin' again)

Interesting-- I read Rove to be endorsing the Cantor approach... Maybe I need to to consult with Dr. freud.

Captain Hate on the iPhone

Rove needs to get his fat ass to a studio and debate Levin on this. The Architect of 2006 is as much of a free spender with money we don't have as the JEF only it goes to his cronies.

Thomas Collins

That was intentional, NK. I think Boehner is making a boner if he doesn't try to publicize that the Dems are the party of ObamaCare now, ObamaCare forever.

Thomas Collins

What's the Cantor approach NK?

I'm trying to think of an "intentional Freudian slip" nickname for Cantor.

NK(tryin' again)

ThomasC-- ah.. OK I'll be alone on the Freud couch then.

Thomas Collins

NK, I solemnly promise never to refer to Boehner as softening his position on anything!

BB Key

Issa hearing starting on CSPAN-3

NK(tryin' again)

Cantor = House passes a CR at frozen spending levels... then debate spending cuts and ObummerCare delay as part of te Debt Limit, because indie votes don't like defunding, but hate the debt.

NK(tryin' again)

ThomasC C-- heh-- great minds. This morning I emailed a Bloomie News reporter about jobless claims, I chastised her for doing the editors bidding by fluffing the economy, despite BenB proving it was dead yesterday by keeping the QE pumping going. In the end, I told her she might as well keep on fluffing the economy, and someday it might grow again.

Fred Beloit

Rove and Prince Jeb lost me a long time ago. Guys like Rove raise money so Repubs can win and if they do win they act as if they were Dems all along. It's a shell game.

Threadkiller

Rove is an asshole. He notes that the GOP "lost...seven of the eleven gubernatorial races" in 1996.

What he fails to mention is that there was no net change in partisan count of governors.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_gubernatorial_elections,_1996

Could he make the same argument that the Dems position on the shutdown yielded no gubernatorial wins for them?

Absolutely. This is because he uses a net-zero factoid.

Fag.

Threadkiller

From Wiki:

"Following Gingrich's first two years as House Speaker, the Republican majority was re-elected in the 1996 election, the first time Republicans had done so in 68 years, and the first time simultaneously with a Democratic president winning re-election."

Rove should only be discussed on the proctology thread.

NK(tryin' again)

Cohen = disgusting Cretin: http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/18/democratic-congressman-mocks-tea-partys-affinity-for-guns-and-the-bible-video/

Ranger

An update on the day's activities in Egypt:

Egypt troops storm Islamist stronghold near Cairo

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130919/DA8TEU9O3.html

KERDASA, Egypt (AP) - Egyptian security forces backed by armored fighting vehicles and helicopters stormed a town known to be an Islamist stronghold outside of Cairo near the Great Pyramids on Thursday, coming under barrages of fire from gunmen on rooftops as they searched door to door for militants.

...

Interior Ministry spokesman Gen. Hani Abdel-Latif said police plan to besiege the town along with the army, which would then deploy special forces to round up armed men.

It looks like the Egyptian Army is under no illusions about the situation they face.

Ranger

And yes, Rove is a "political animal", in the sense that he could care less about principles. He's as bad as any democrat, in that all he cares about is power, and policy to him is simply a way to advance power.

Clarice

I don't see how the Republicans can stay in business without a big fight to defund Obamacare. I know the party's "well wishers" like Milbank in the press warn it'll mean a govt shutdown and disaster, but they'll have to rake that risk IMO and they need to start a better communications effort about what they are doing and why.

Clarice

*Take that risk*

Jane

I agree Clarice. And I still like Rove, but probably not for a political reason.

NK(tryin' again)

Clarice@10:54-- I agree with that. But when to have the 'big fight'. The Repubs will pass the CR defunding ObummerCare, approving Keystone, and Tax Reform, all good ideas BTW, especially with gas prices going up again because of QE. Reid passes a clean CR- without those and sends back to the House. Then what? Shutdown, OK... the CR will get passed without those by the House to end the shutdown and debate them as part of Debt. It's just stupid tactics. Pass the damn CR, then debate everything in the Debt, which the voters hate and Obummer sounds completely stupid when he says anything about it.

Jane

If you are watching the hearing, has Gowdy been up yet?

4JIB2

Typical upper level blame game at the ARB hearing today. The highest ranking person unable to defend themselves gets the shaft. But in this case no one even that person(s) got any shaft - demoting is not a form of discipline when you have 4 lives lost.

Danube of Thought

I think if a government shutdown occurs it will cost the GOP hugely in the 2014 midterms. It simply is not possible to defund Obamacare while controlling only the House.

There is not a sentient being in America who does not recognize that Obamacare is a 100% Democratic project. Just let it play out, and the electorate will respond accordingly.

I have this feeling the GOP is going to harm itself considerably by making an absolutely futile gesture.

sbwaters

I don't see how the Republicans can stay in business without a big fight to defund Obamacare

Agreed, but phrasing matters.

We don't want to "defund Obamacare"; we want to "replace the Obamacare bureaucracy with targeted programs that address the real healthcare needs."

Ignatz

--OK I'll be alone on the Freud couch then.--

That by itself indicates your slip is showing, doesn't it, NK?

sbwaters

Secondly, the MSM are chanting "no increase in debt limit = default and government shutdown" when that is a wrongheaded slogan.

centralcal

Texas Appellate court overturns Delay convictions - all of them.

NK(tryin' again)

DoT-- the only reason to vote to defund Obummercare as part of the CR is to not give up the fight before it even starts. That's a rational strategy, but what useful tactics to apply? The defund vote is like taking what was left of the Pacific Fleet on 12/8/41 and pointing it west to attack Tokyo Bay. bad idea for a noble cause.

Ig-- hey hey, just because I like Broadway musicals doesn't mean I'm that way... not that there's anything wrong with being that way.. wait...

Ignatz

I'm torn on this issue.

The principled thing to do is defund and take a stand. But practically how does that work out? We KNOW the MFM will blame the Reps and we KNOW the Reps will cave long before Barry. Regardless of how wimpy Barry is he can't cave on the signature issue of his presidency which now has his name attached to it.

I agree with DoT the savvy thing to do is let it unfold as a complete nightmare and strangle itself on its own red tape.
But even that carries a risk; will it be seen as a nightmare by most people if they're getting a big fat subsidy that lowers their out of pocket costs despite the huge premium increases?

4JIB2

Jane,

No Gowdy yet. Issa, Cummings, Tierney, Mica, Duncan and now Lynch.

Captain Hate on the iPhone

Since when is not fighting against something that nearly everybody realizes is a disaster a smart strategy?

Danube of Thought

will it be seen as a nightmare by most people if they're getting a big fat subsidy that lowers their out of pocket costs despite the huge premium increases?

That's the ultimate issue, and I don't know how many people are going to get subsidies that do that. But it has become clear that Obama has sought to improve the healthcare situation for 15% of the population at a very substantial cost to the other 85%.

Ranger

I do think there is some positive value to making the point that Republicans want to prevent the nightmare and have fought hard to prevent it. But ultimately, they should let the nightmare come into effect, and then remind the voters in November of next year that they told them so, and tried to prevent it.

Captain Hate on the iPhone

The funny thing is that even though this is associated with the JEF he did almost nothing to pass it. Every time he spoke on it support dropped faster than gravity and he stormed out of a donk meeting when Pelosi complained about his lack of leadership.

Like everything else in his shady life this was just a mirage.

NK(tryin' again)

Ig's dilemma-- I agree that stopping the Exchange subsidies is important-- even more so with employers dumping employees into exchanges left and right (see Trader Joe's and Walgreen's). The way to handle that is the Debt Fight. Obummer may very well cave on a one year delay in all of ObummerCare to get his spending back on MediAid, if he doesn't, Then the debt Bill passes with all POTUS waivers revoked ESPECIALLY CONGRESS, and severe nondefense cuts. That's the limited victory available with only controlling the House and it's only available because of the Debt Fight.

Threadkiller

Let it play out?

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2013/09/16/more-insurers-fleeing-individual-market/

It is playing out.

NK(tryin' again)

CaptH-- the ACA was a Congressional Dem evil plan for at least 25 years before Obummer. Obummer's only involvement was the MedicAid explosion for Third World Drs, Nurses and healthcare unions-- his blood. That was 'paid for' by cutting MediCare for retired white people. Sorry to be so blunt, but Obummer is that racialist. He does loathe white people.

Ranger

will it be seen as a nightmare by most people if they're getting a big fat subsidy that lowers their out of pocket costs despite the huge premium increases?

The only people who will have that experience are the small number of people in the individual health care market already in high cost states who are paying for "sliver" plans out of their own pocket right now.

Most people in the individual health insurance market already are paying for plans that don't meet ObamaCare minimums, and will have to buy much more expensive plans next year, and may be paying more out of pocket even with the subsidy.

And most people that will be going into the exchanges are people who for one reason or another have not been in the individual health insurance market, but are being forced into it either because of the individual mandate, or because they are losing their coverage at work due to ObamaCare. All of these people will be paying significantly more now than they have before even with the subsidy, because they either never bought health insurance, or the cost of individual plans is significantly higher than what they were paying as their share of the employer provided health insurance.

As DoT pointed out, lots of losers in this system, and very few winners.

Stephanie

Iggy, how many people even approach their out of pocket cost every year v how many people are paying premiums?

Besides with this generation it is the immediate not the long term and the increases are an immediate "WTF just happened???"

Question for those that know re Obamacare:

Premise:
20 year old leaves school and starts working at a grocery store. 20 year old is required to be on parent's health care until age 26.


Why would said 20 year old want to or even need to sign up for health insurance through work?

Does Ocare require that 'child' to have double coverage (you can't carve out one child v all on 'family' coverage)?

Does the union require that 'child' to take the union negotiated insurance?

Does that employer have an incentive to hire the already insured?

Shouldn't this allow the to employer skirt the 30 hour rule vis a vis that already insured 'child' and make them more likely to be the ideal employee from a benefits standpoint?

Just wondering...

Captain Hate on the iPhone

Another advantage of trying to defund it is getting people on the record of voting in favor of it for the midterms. It could be an even better rerun of 2010 if the party of stoopid doesn't blow it and tells Rove to take a hike.

Threadkiller

Maybe Rove is an expert on midterm losses. Look what he did for the GOP in 2006.

I await his WSJ piece on how he douched up the House and Senate.

Ignatz

--Obummer may very well cave on a one year delay in all of ObummerCare-

Does that help Republicans?
They don't get credit for trying to stop it but they don't have an unfolding disaster to run against.
Presumably they can say 'give us both houses and we'll kill this thing once and for all'.

Account Deleted

A brief sound and fury fight such as that conducted by Cameron on behalf of BOzo's Syrian adventure is not going to create lasting animus. It's a gesture without much cost and the benefit is a lift for those considering just walking away from politics entirely.

Danube on iPad

"It is playing out."

Exactly. Let it proceed.

Danube on iPad

"Since when is not fighting against something that nearly everybody realizes is a disaster a smart strategy?"

There are stupid ways of fighting. These guys have seized on one.

Threadkiller

Let it proceed to hurt my pocketbook?

NK(tryin' again)

"Presumably they can say 'give us both houses and we'll kill this thing once and for all'."

Yes the delay gives that '14 senate campaign pitch. Winning the Senate is vital for ObummerCrae repeal because it gives control of the budget; plus SCOTUS confirms.

Ignatz

I admit to a skewed view of things since I am one of the relative few who would save a ton of dough under Barrycare.

NK(tryin' again)

"These guys have seized on one."

DoT-- 'these guys' are TP House members. They've pointed the Pacific Fleet west and are headed towards Tokyo on 12/8/41.

MarkO

My concern is that the infiltration of Obamacare in the market will so disrupt it that the market will be irreversibly altered.

But, like in "The Princess Bride," it might be only mostly dead.

Danube on iPad

"Let it proceed to hurt my pocketbook?"

Absolutely. Yours and many others'. That's what will move the electorate in '14 and '16. And a government shutdown won't do anything whatsoever to protect your pocketbook.

Take the long view.

Threadkiller

I thought only liberals spent other people's money for the greater good of the long view.

Captain Hate on the iPhone

The smart fight: bend over and take it. And make excuses for the GOP.

pagar101

From TK @11:29

"I do think it’s a sign of more to come,” he says. “What we have seen in states that have enacted laws like ObamaCare, with community rating and price controls where you can’t charge sick people more than you can charge healthy people, is an exodus of insurers from the marketplace."

I would really be surprised if what anyone is being told today about saving with Obama care pan out. Doctors are going to leave, Insurance companies are going to leave, and the consumer will be left holding the bag,IMO.

Danube on iPad

And furthermore: what happens if it is in fact defunded? I would foresee utter chaos among employers, employees and the insurance market. Who will get 100% of the blame for that chaos?

To respond to MarkO, there is no way out of this mess before 1/17. If we control the machinery at that time, we can announce that on some date six months in the future Obamacare will be repealed in its entirety and the GOP plan announced recently will take effect. Insurers can readily adapt to the new market realities.

MarkO

I despair.

MarkO

By the way, the ARB did not take testimony under oath. Why? They said they had no reason to believe anyone would lie.

Moreover, advance copies were sent to Hillary for her review and suggestions.

Corrupt?

Janet

Thanks for that DeLay link, cc.

Years ago I picked 3 stories to follow in depth - DeLay, Libby, & a local one about WaPo reporter Mathew Mosk working with the Maryland Dems.

I dropped following the DeLay stories because they became too complicated.

That was a lightbulb time for me concerning media corruption, a pitiful GOP, media created scandals, double standards,....

Ralph

This is OT, but of extreme personal interest to me.

I'm seeing my doctor about getting a colonoscopy this afternoon, and I intended to ask him about the new prep that I'd seen described here recently.
Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Can anyone help me?

Dublindave

Need more popcorn.

centralcal

Yes, MarkO - corrupt. They didn't even interview Hillary, either!

Dublindave

Pass the butter.

Old Lurker test

"Presumably they can say 'give us both houses and we'll kill this thing once and for all'."


I assume that means by a veto proof margin?

Good luck with that.

sbwaters

Ralph -
Prepopik

Jane

Stephanie, as I understand it, it is an option not a requirement.

Ralph

sbw,

Many Thanks!

pagar101

"They said they had no reason to believe anyone would lie."

Good Grief! They are dealing with leftists.Leftists lie about everything all the time.

DebinNC

BOzo and the Dems barrelled over Repubs and drove healthcare into the ditch. Repubs should offer a sensible, market-based alternative (a tow truck) to ObamaCare that the public can read and understand. If the Dems refuse the tow truck, it's up to them to get out of the ditch on their own. Defunding would obfuscate where the blame belongs when the unpopular consequences really kick in. .

Danube on iPad

"I assume that means by a veto proof margin?"

No. I'm talking about what the 2016 candidates, including the presidential candidate, should say.

Let's face it, folks: in 2008 the Dems swept it all, including 60 senate seats. That allowed them to pass this monstrously stupid law. There is only one way to get rid of it, and that is through the ballot box. Causing a government shutdown to occur is as dumb a thing as could possibly be done in the meantime, and may forever jeapordize the chance to do away with this law.

Threadkiller

"Let's face it, folks: in 2008 the Dems swept it all, including 60 senate seats."

What led to that sweep?

Old Lurker test

DoT our posts crossed.

I actually agree with you about Jan 2017. My comment was aimed at those who think getting both houses in 2014 will do the trick.

Which it will not.

NK(tryin' again)

OL@12:27-- Vetoing an entire Budget is where POTUS is weakest. Winning the Senate and controlling the budget is a big deal.

Jane

I love Trey Gowdy.

Threadkiller

He is like a chipper/shredder, Jane.

Jane

I want him to be the next AG.

Dublindave

M and M?

Threadkiller

If I was in charge of casting a for a movie that was in need of a weasel bureaucrat, I would pick the faux greyhair sitting behind Pickering.

Looking at him I can only think of Paul Reiser in Aliens.

Porchlight

I always thought the DeLay prosecution was BS. They wanted DeLay removed from power because he was effective. They got what they wanted even if it was reversed years later on appeal. I'm glad for him but it's so little, so late.

Porchlight

Problem is, if the GOP doesn't mount some kind of fight against Obamacare, they potentially lose seats in 2014 because people are so angry that they've rolled over yet again.

Old Lurker test

I would agree NK if we still did budgets.

Having shown that there is no downside for skipping that pesky annual exercise for what, four years running, I wonder how many in the ruling class will want to reinstate the process? I am sure Karl Rove has many friends who are happy to skip them.

sbwaters

Boehner might as well be non-verbal for his ability to sway the masses.

MaryD

Jane and TK--whatis Gowdy doing?

Porchlight

Having shown that there is no downside for skipping that pesky annual exercise for what, four years running, I wonder how many in the ruling class will want to reinstate the process?

There is no penalty for Dems, OL. The penalty for Repubs will be reinstated when the time comes.

NK(tryin' again)

OL-- I'm comfortable with Mitch M and Paul Ryan doing Budget reconciliation to repeal ObummerCare in winter 2015, I have high confidence they would actully do that, because it serves their personal/political interests. When Obama vetos, my confidence drops that they'll be able to use Budget leverage to do the right thing, but I'd still give them the shot.

Old Lurker test

Good point Porch

Old Lurker test

And I agree with that, too, NK.

Obama will veto the reconciled 2015,16 budgets and then we are back to the Shutdown Carnival. In the meantime he has all those rights vested in the various Secretaries.

DoT's right, Jan 2017 is the soonest we have any real shot.

Ignatz

--I assume that means by a veto proof margin?

Good luck with that.--

OL,
I was only giving a slogan on which the Reps could run against Barrycare in 2014, not a method by which repeal could actually occur. They only pretend to to do what they say they will, so why shouldn't we?

That four+ years after that monstrosity passed, the Reps haven't had a basic free market alternative to put forward all this time would be embarrassing if they were still capable of feeling embarrassment.

DebinNC

Mike Flynn at Breitbart:

"While there is no practical way to defund ObamaCare, since most of the spending supporting the law is mandatory and not subject to Congressional appropriations, the House move puts an unwelcome spotlight on several vulnerable Senate Democrats. They will be forced, just a little over a year ahead of mid-term elections, to again take a stand on ObamaCare.

Republicans needs to pick up 6 seats to take control of the Senate. They are currently favored to pick up three seats, in West Virginia, South Dakota and Montana. Three more Democrat incumbents are endangered, Mark Pryor (AR), Mary Landrieu (LA) and Kay Hagen (NC). With the House action, all three will be forced to go on record, either supporting or opposing ObamaCare. It is not an easy choice

Voting NO now won't save them without adding enormous bribes their Repub challengers would run on.

Old Lurker test

Yep, Iggy.

Captain Hate on the iPhone

Iggy that's not a smart fight.

NK(tryin' again)

OL-- I don't disagree but consider this: IMO all Obama cares about from ACA is one it's step closer to SP, and the swag it gives to his Blood through MedicAid expansion. CUT MEDICAID eligibility back to preACA and the ACA funding, non-negotiable, that's fine politically for Repubs, and a killer for Obummer. I think it's huge leverage in ObummerCare and Budget resolution.

Marlene

MaryD,thanks for your response on the other thread. My Dad grew up in the Littleton/Lisbon/Franconia Notch area. We spent many summers driving up to northern NH to visit my great-grandparents when I was a kid. NH has turned purple,much to my dismay. But,I love the tax free shopping. : )

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