Sidestepping The Impending Debt Ceiling Debacle

The NY Times reprises three possibile ploys for Obama to sidestep a debt ceiling crisis. Mercifully, they do not include the Magic Platinum Coin; weirdly, they also do not include the IOU plan pioneered by California and endorsed, at the Federal level, by a Times guest contributer last January.

The three notions are that the President can simply order the Treasury to issue more debt under (1) his emergency powers; (2) the 14th Amendment, which says that "The validity of the public debt... shall not be questioned"; or (3) the Conflicting Legislation, Waddya Gonna Do approach:

The third alternative, the subject of a 2012 article in The Columbia Law Review, focuses on what the article’s authors call the irreconcilable instructions Congress will have provided to Mr. Obama if it fails to act. Having been told to spend, but not to raise taxes or issue debt, “the president has to decide which of Congress’s orders to follow,” said Neil H. Buchanan, a law professor at George Washington University, who wrote the article with Michael C. Dorf, a law professor at Cornell. The president must, in the article’s words, “choose the least unconstitutional option.”

That option, the authors concluded, is issuing more debt.

“Anything you do that’s remotely realistic is going to be unconstitutional,” Professor Dorf said. “But the president should still try to minimize the constitutional violation.”

Hmm. The Times offers some legal pushback before finally tackling the bigger problem - what knucklehead would buy this debt of such dubious legality?

However one interprets the Constitution, there remains the practical question of whether the nation’s creditors would continue to lend to the United States if the president did take unilateral action.

“I don’t think anyone in their right minds would buy those bonds,” Michael W. McConnell, a law professor at Stanford, said of debt issued without Congressional authorization.

No kidding. The notion that these would trade as equal substitutes for conventional (i.e., duly authorized, legal) Treasury debt is absurd.

However, doling out IOUs to government suppliers in lieu of cash might very well be legal, and the IOUs could well be marketable. The fellow pushing it last January was

Edward D. Kleinbard, a former chief of staff at the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, is a law professor at the University of Southern California.

So he knows Washinngton and has seen California.

Comments

[Brian]

First. Yay!

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

Obummer Bonds? Hmm.... at what yield rate?... at what rate after Impeachment hearings against Lew are started? Tell me another; it takes a Law prof from my alma mater in DC to come up with shite like that.

Securitize the IOUs? Brilliant! again at what rate?, and now we are securitizing daily Federal operations: NYC did this 1954-1974 was bailed out; Detroit did this 1973-2013, filed bankruptcy, calif and Ill do it and are insolvent. Send better public finance experts.

[Threadkiller]

Brooklyn Bridge Bonds

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

TomM-- thanks for posting this NYT drek I would never read it on my own. In other news, A-Roid sues Bud Selig, alleging Bud has it out for A-Roid and that selig colluded with juicers for years. Nice baseball heroes your Yanks recruit and re-sign.http://hotair.com/archives/2013/10/04/a-rod-sues-mlb-claiming-witch-hunt-to-drive-him-out-of-baseball/

[Extraneus]

If they'll put the President's picture on those bonds, I'd like to buy one for my son. I bought him one of these a while ago, when he was learning about inflation.

Price: $0.01.

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

I think it is inarguable at this point that Obummer/Jarrett wanted the shutdown, expected to use the shutdown to 'punish' Repubs-TP and had NO ENDGAME if Repubs called the bluff. I also think it's inarguable that the persuadble voter reaction to the shutdown and ObummerCare rollout is much WORSE than Obummer expected, and right now, that is radicalizing the Repub leadership to be much closer to the TP position-- I also think it's pretty clear the Repub leadership didn't want that going in. So this could become like Guadalcanal where both sides are sucked into a radicalized fight they didn't plan for, and continually up the ante to pressure the other side. I have no idea how it ends up.

[Mott Hoople]

Don't be sad....you're winning, as Charlie Sheen said.

[sbwaters]

“I don’t think anyone in their right minds would buy those bonds,”

Really? Call Yankees-Steiner to see how to manufacture cash flow from nothing.

[Threadkiller]

I understand the administration will be offering the bonds online in 19 layer pdf format only.

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

'cash flow from nothing'-- $700B/year in cash flow. Conceptually-- just a bit different than the sale of collectible stuff.

[Extraneus]

cc's new friend is getting famous reporting anonymously-sourced Republican gossip. On Drudge right now, he's just referred to as COSTA, while Chris Wallace is CHRIS WALLACE.

[sbwaters]

[Tongue in cheek]

[Account Deleted]

Why wouldn't Mad Ben pick up the BOzoBonds? The Fed has actually purchased much of the debt issued since Emperor BOzo I's first coronation, picking up all of it going forward isn't much of a strain.

BOzoBucks for BOzoBonds has a nice ring.

[Ignatz]

--I think it is inarguable at this point that Obummer/Jarrett wanted the shutdown, expected to use the shutdown to 'punish' Repubs-TP and had NO ENDGAME if Repubs called the bluff.--

Good point that is never raised; what is the Dem's endgame?

The only endgame in chicken is don' give in before the other guy does, so, to the extent either side has an endgame, they are identical.
Barry, like all narcissists, has a history of blinking and then declaring victory.

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

sorry sbw-- my sarcasm detector has completely failed.

RickB-- I just threw up a bit in my mouth when I read your1:11 about Mad Ben or Goofy Janet buying BozoBonds. I would support physical insurrection against Obummer-Fed if they did that.

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

Ignatz-- did you see the quote I posted attributed to Putin about playing chess with Obama the pidgeon?

[Danube on iPad]

Letter from a friend to Paul Mirengoff:

"True story: I was talking to my fitness trainer on Wednesday about Obamacare. He is a 38 year-old with three boys by his first marriage. Of late he has a second wife, who has her own insurance through her job, covering just her. He has insurance as an individual.

"He got a letter from his insurance company cutting him off, and saying he’d have to look elsewhere after Dec. 31. So he started looking. The cheapest policy he could find has DOUBLE the premium he pays now, which is a considerable hit at his income level. He asked the company why the premium was so much compared to what he has been paying. It explained that its plan included more than his present, soon-to-expire plan.

"The additional coverage, which he (and in effect his boys) can’t turn down, because it’s mandated by Obamacare, is for the cost of CHILDBIRTH."

[lyle]

because it’s mandated by Obamacare, is for the cost of CHILDBIRTH

So what's the big deal? Gender is only a social construct foisted on us by the phallocentric, hegemonic PATRIARCHY!!

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

DoT-- the glories of centralized command and control economies.

[Ignatz]

Yes I did NK.
Either 'chicken' or 'pigeon' serves as a pretty apt moniker for the birdbrain in the Oval Coop.

[Old Lurker]

Well, there was that 2 year old boy in China who gave birth this week to his twin who was growing inside his abdomen for the last two years...

[DrJ]

In CA for the last year all medical insurance policies have been required to cover childbirth. Neither MrsJ, I or any of my employees is fertile, but the insurance has to cover it anyway.

Forward!

[Extraneus]

Need I re-post the Reuters gender identity question, the purpose of which was to gauge their gayness?

Reuters asks staff if they are 'intersex,' 'transsexual,' 'genderqueer,' male-to-female

[Ignatz]

How come all the mutant-like Astounding Tales seem to come out of China?

[Old Lurker]

Ext, I was afraid to open that or to google "intersex" because I fear the NSA will use that (either the ignorance or the interest)against me!

[jimmyk on iPad]

The AEI link posted yesterday suggested that if the SS trust fund liquidates its Treasury holdings, total debt subject to the limit doesn't change. Debt held by the public would increase, debt held within the public sector would decrease. More generally, any asset sale (national parks?) could be used to fund spending. That's of course if the goal is to keep spending at these insane levels without borrowing more.

[Extraneus]

I know most people visit Drudge, but on this 100th birtday of the tax code, it seems fitting to post this:

Happy Birthday: Tax Code Increases 73,208 Pages Since Inception...

[matt]

The Bernank already has a world of trouble on his hands. the day he eases, the markets are going to tank. We are printing $85 Billion/month that we will never have until the FED slows the presses.

So Jack Lew must now figure out who to pay and when, just like a real Treasurer/Controller. Ben is buying Treasuries which, if there is a crisis, will jump in yield, which is as most economists agree, is a Bad Thing. he may have better luck with the mortgage backed instruments he is buying so long as they are not derivatives.

In the meantime Obama is shafting most of America and people are beginning to wake up and get seriously pissed off.

[jimmyk on iPad]

"How come all the mutant-like Astounding Tales seem to come out of China?"

Large sample size? There was also one I can't link now about giant wasps killing dozens of Chinese.

[Extraneus]

It's not obvious to me either, OL.

[Gus Fring]

The NPS is just another freebie for the takers. Just close them permanently. That would decrease the deficit at least 1 or two basis points over the coming decade.

[Extraneus]

Here's the giant hornet thing, and it's apparently true.

[Extraneus]

President Obama Spent Shutdown Day Three Sitting for Portrait?

Surely President Clinton sat for some things during his shutdown, so it's not exactly unprecedented.

[Threadkiller]

I wonder if E. Ting Fo Tu was hungry half an hour after eating?

[Account Deleted]

Add on to DoT's BOzocare link

Obamacare Poster Boy Chad Henderson"

100% Natural OFA Astroturf

Gallup - Obama Winning*

*In this instance, winning is to be inferred as getting a Putinesque butt kicking, only worse.

[jimmyk on iPad]

Turns out the story of Chad Henderson successfully signing up for Barry are was phony. Via Iowahawk.

http://reason.com/archives/2013/10/04/obamacare-chad-henderson-father

[jimmyk on iPad]

Barrycare

[jimmyk on iPad]

Oops, should have refreshed.

[Threadkiller]

Listening to Limbaugh and a question comes to mind.

Are the NPS actions, in closing Federal Park lands, codified?

Most signs that close or restrict things on the local level incude the code that gives the authority to that agency performing the action.

If you crossed the Barrycade, what would be the citation?

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

RickB-- the Gallup polling elates and infuriates me at the same time. Elates because obviously people are catching on to the disaster for them that is OBama. Furious because he was worse than this in summer '11. But the evil Axel-Plouffe spin machine talked exclusively about killing Osama and Barry's resonableness to reduce the debt-- and of course the JournoListers propagandized. they lied their asses off to LiV and it worked in 2012. I'm so furious at Romney/Ryan for failing to challenge the lies and instead relying on lame Repub polling. Arghhhh!!!

[4JIB2]

25 Dems walkover to vote for NIH funding but it falls short of the 2/3rd requirement. Getting closer though.

[NK(tryin'2.0)]

Thanks for the link JiB;

TomM-- why does our CongressCritter Jim Himes hate children with Cancer?

[Extraneus]

Why does it need 2/3?

[Steve]

http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2013/10/video-never-before-seen-military.html

[Steve]

Video: Never before seen military footage of Black Hawk Down

http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2013/10/video-never-before-seen-military.html

[Danube on iPad]

Need 2/3 to override a veto.

[Threadkiller]

Isn't that only after it passes the Senate?

[dady]

Good Morning.

This may be a bit of an Apples/Oranges comparison, but Drudge has a story mentioning that the Govt Shutdown is cancelling Sports coverage for our Troops overseas by slimming down AFN (Armed Forces Network) to nothing but News: Military keeps Camp David open, cuts NFL, baseball coverage to troops overseas

“GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN. Due to the government shutdown, the Defense Department can only provide limited overseas television, radio, print and web services.”

The site itself says Mandatory staff reductions at the AFN Broadcast Center in California will reduce AFN TV to one service: AFN|news. The Pentagon Channel will only broadcast live briefings

I mention that in contrast to what we found out yesterday; That there is an Arabic Channel run out of DC named AlHurra (it captured the DC car chase); that it provides TV service to Iraq and the Middle East in Arabic, and that it is not shutdown or unfunded during the Govt Shutdown. Alhurra TV takes turn on spotlight with chase footage

So far as I can tell from the stories, our Overseas troops get hosed but not our Arabic audiences in the Mid East. Alahu Akbar!

[4JIB2]

Special rule. Not the veto threat. Boehner had to suspend the rules to keep the Dems from offering amendments or riders.

But it still covers a veto if necessary.

All the mini-CR's will be affected.

[caro]

My understanding is they need 2/3 if the bill has not passed through committee (Rules Comm?). When that is accomplished, which is just taking a day, they can revote and it only takes a majority.

[bgates]

Tax Code Increases 73,208 Pages Since Inception

Whoa. That movie just came out like three years ago.

[GMax]

Rick

That for the Gallup link.

Allways remember, Gallup surveys Adults. Not even registered voters and certainly not likely voters. This tends to favor Democrats a bit, due to the LIV being more likely to vote for the Liar Party ( if they can just remember to register, what day the election is etc ) In a midterm election, the historical precedents are for the electorate to be a lot more Republican than a Presidential election.

Zero is cruising his party into a rather significant beatdown, and the debt limit is way more unpopular than the government shutdown. Even a big percent of Democrats dont want to raise it.

[Clarice]

But the Administration just forked over $445 million to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The House needs 2/3 because of the way Boehner brought it up-He's likely to just change the method of voting and it will surely pass..Then the Senate will have to p

[Danube on iPad]

Wow. Those Gallup numbers are wonderful. The way this petty thug has been behaving since the shutdown has hurt him noticeably.

[C.R.]

I can't believe anyone would input their personal information into these Obamacare websites at this point...

On Fox Business Network’s “Cavuto” on Wednesday, computer programmer and founder of McAfee, Inc. John McAfee said the online component of Obamacare “is a hacker’s wet dream” that will cause “the loss of income for the millions of Americans who are going to lose their identities.”

&
HHS-Run Website Hacked; Now Selling NFL Jerseys, Ugg Boots, Armani Fragrances

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/hhs-run-website-hacked-now-selling-nfl-jerseys-ugg-boots-armani-fragrances_759213.html

[4JIB2]

He wants to avoid the Rules Committee. The Dems will just offer up a bunch of delaying tactic nonsense for amendments that will have to be voted on but will have nothing to do with funding.

From my experience with a certain Transportation appropriation (that TC knows me about) he is doing the right thing.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

I just burned the syit out of 3 fingers. any ideas other than water

[Ignatz]

--Are the NPS actions, in closing Federal Park lands, codified?--

Almost certainly. The National Forest where the Rim Fire occurred is closed to the unauthorized public til further notice, with violators fined $175.
The statutory authority is given in the order if you want me to look it up.

[GMax]

BTW Lt. TMax has hagi cable service, so he watches the Cowboys on his laptop , when he has time. For any of the troops who dont pop for internet service, which is outrageously expensive something like $150/ Month ( but there aint much else to spend money on when you are stationed on a FOB ) then the Armed Forces Channel shut down would suck. Makes you wonder why Zero's golf course is still open, dont it?

[C.R.]

Jane - cool water is best. Either under running water or submerged in a bowl. Feel better.

[dady]

Clarice,

Alhurra, is funded by Middle East Broadcasting. The USA Today story sez:

Middle East Broadcasting reaches 35.5 million throughout the region. It has an annual budget of $110.3 million and 763 employees.

The AFN Site does not list it's funding amount but sez:

Mandatory staff reductions at the AFN Broadcast Center in California will reduce AFN TV to one service: AFN news.

On the plus side, perhaps that means our troops won't have to listen to their 7-8 hours daily of NPR. If the AFN shutdown achieves that, then I'm all for it.

AFN Radio Schedule: M-F

(Monday)
0000 NPR Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me
0100 NPR Only a Game
0200 NPR Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me
0300 NPR At Home with Gary Sullivan Jazz Set
(Tuesday thru Friday)
0000 NPR Market Place
0030 NPR All Things Considered
0400 ESPN Game Night (Monday)
0400 ESPN Sports Center Tonight (Tuesday – Friday)
0600 AFN Morning NewsWatch
0900 NPR From the Top (Monday)
0900 NPR Talk of the Nation (Tuesday-Friday)
1000 NPR On the Media (Monday)
1000 NPR Fresh Air (Tuesday-Friday)
1000 AFN OpenLine (as scheduled covering NPR)
1100 NPR All Things Considered
1300 ESPN Mike & Mike in the Morning
1600 AFN Afternoon NewsWatch
1800 AP News
1802 AFN NewsWatch Update
1805 Yahoo Sports
1806 Rush Limbaugh (Conservative)
1900 AP News (2 Minutes)
1902 AFN NewsWatch Update
1905 Yahoo Sports
1906 Doug Stephan (Call-in interviews – Variety)
2000 Jim Rome (Sports Talk}
2100 AP News (2 Minutes)
2102 AFN NewsWatch Update
2105 Yahoo Sports
2106 Ed Schulz (Liberal)
2200 NPR All Things Considered

[Some Guy]

Jane put ice in a bowl of water ASAP

[Extraneus]

White House, Congress agree on something: Back-pay for federal workers

WTF?

[Threadkiller]

COOL WATER ONLY!! ice or icy water will caue

[4JIB2]

Do not use ice. Running water or cool but not icy cold. 15 minutes then wrap in sterile gauze. Take aspirin or aleve for pain. Do not break any blisters.

[dady]

Ughh. Sorry jane.

That hurts me just thinking about it. Can't offer anything but commiseration. Hopefully the Red Sox just coming to bat in the 1st can keep your mind off the burn a little bit.

[jimmyk]

computer programmer and founder of McAfee, Inc. John McAfee

Not to doubt what he said, but I'm surprised he's appearing on TV. Didn't he get arrested somewhere in the Central America for murder?

[Some Guy]

When I said, "ice in water" it's to make cool water, not ice cold water. A couple of cubes in large bowl.

Apologies that I wasn't clearer, but it's important to do right away so I didn't take care in how worded it.

[GMax]

I have taken the lumber to Chris Wallace so I should point out when he is right too:

“The White House keeps saying, the president says this has never happened before, we’ve never had a negotiation on the debt limit,” Wallace told POLITICO for this week’s “Turn the Table” series. “That’s bull. It just isn’t true.”

Jane - depending on the severity of the burn, aloe vera might take the sting out. 2nd or third degree burns may still sting but it might be marginally helpful.

[Threadkiller]

Jeebers. Not sure what happened there.

Ice will cause tissue damage.

Good luck Jane!

[Clarice]

Cool, not icy ,water then gauze and analgesics, JIB is right. So sorry. I'd not use any creams at all.

[anonamom]

Jane,
Rub a cut onion on them when you are done icing them, and repeat as often as needed to reduce the pain.
Take some Motrin too.

[anonamom]

From the previous post, HT to Instapundit:

David Samuels on his interview with Donald Rumsfeld:

On the other hand, I think he honestly believes that Obama is incompetent, when it comes to geopolitics and also to making decisions that affect the American economy. “I begin with incompetence as a problem,” he told me in the interview. “I think his behavior reflects a lack of experience and a lack of a strategic concept, or some principles or values that he tests things against.” Accordingly, says Rumsfeld, “We are contributing to a vacuum in the world that’s going to be filled by people who don’t have our values and don’t have our interests and our beliefs, and that means it’s going to be a more dangerous world for us and for others.”

What seems to bother Rumsfeld most is his sense that America is a country in steep decline – which is a word that he used more than once. While he thinks that Obama’s Syria policy is a fig leaf for a disaster, he actually seemed less focused on specific policy choices than on his sense that the socio-economic foundation of American power is disintegrating. Without sustained American economic strength, neither American threats nor American offers of friendship are likely to carry much weight with the rest of the world.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/donald-rumsfeld-obama-i-begin-incompetence-problem_759183.html?nopager=1

[Threadkiller]

Sorry, Some Guy. I was reading fast. I didn't mean to indicate that you suggested to ice the burn.

[centralcal]

Isn't anonamom the medical professional? She just contradicted some of our other JOM "docs."

[rse]

Gmax-the golf courses remain open because that is the sovereign's personal preference of course.

Just like the barrycades to block acces despite no actual fed funds involved are meant to show his intense displeasure at the personal effrontery of the House forgetting their obligation to behave as obsequious minions.

[4JIB2]

After his mea culpa, I am sensing the internals of the polls are changing things in DC.

Byron York tweets the following:

Interesting. RT @SenatorReid Speaker Boehner is a good man who has a tough job. I hope he'll do what he knows is right.

Let this fester over the weekend and see how the votes go on Monday. Evidently the WH has come out accepting a bill on Federal worker pay but I can't find the source.

[rse]

anonamom-I would agree with Rumsfeld except disintegrating is not the verb to use when the damage is being intentionally inflicted by politicians, the public sector bureaucrats, and the non-taxed charitable foundations.

[dady]

Caribou Update:

Interesting report on the 50,000 strong Forty-Mile Caribou Herd.

Fairbanks paper says Fortymile Caribou Herd makes waves by crossing Yukon River in Alaska:

the Fortymile Caribou Herd made news last week when a significant number of the herd’s 50,000 animals crossed the Yukon River from south to north for the first time in decades on the Alaska side of the border. While the herd has crossed the Yukon in past years, it’s always done so after moving into Canada, not in Alaska.

(Just a question: How can a herd that has "crossed for the 1st time in decades on the Alaska side", have "always done so after moving into Canada?") Anyone? Buehler? Oh well, back to the story.

Area biologist Jeff Gross at ADFG in Tok said the fact that the Fortymile herd crossed the Yukon River in Alaska rather than Canada “is a sign that the herd is expanding its range.”

What I like is that they haven't yet figured out if this Caribou Herd expanding it's range, is a good thing or a bad thing, and how they can tie it to Global Warming.

I personally don't know: Are they expanding because the herd is expanding and they need more territory to graze their increasing numbers, or are they expanding because they are desperate for food due to AGW? I'd think the former, but it's not in the story, so the papers and the Biologists don't know how to play it yet either.

Just for interest, here's a map showing the position of Eagle Alaska in relation to the Canadian Border: The tiny red dot on the right.

My guess is that within the week we'll find out it is a calamitous consequence of AGW.

[GMax]

Having Harry Reid be your lead negotiator and spokesman has been a disaster of epic proportions for the Democrats. You have to wonder about the collective IQ of elected Democrats when their leaders are San Fran Nan and Dinghy Harry. Two ver low wattage dimbulbs.

[Danube on iPad]

Zero enrollments in California thus far. Zero.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

thanks guys. its my right hand do typing will be worse than usual.

I did the water thing and just happen to have a cut onion. the one that hurts the most is the only one not blistering. weird.

[GMax]

Zero enrollments in California thus far. Zero.

Not even some OFA putzes? How about some losers from MOVE ON ? Acorn rejects? Surely the adminstration can find some liars to claim they have signed up and its was fantastic to damn near orgasmic...

[Threadkiller]

I consider myself to be a Natural Burn expert.

[Threadkiller]

Barry Bonds.

[Clarice]

OFA ringer Henderson is a total liar..He did not sign himself and his dad up for Obamacare. SURPRISE!!http://reason.com/archives/2013/10/04/obamacare-chad-henderson-father

[jimmyk]

LOL, TK @ 3:45, though I'm sure Jane isn't laughing. I have nothing to add to the advice already given. Hope it gets better quickly.

[matt]

Remember, this is an Alynskite president and what they are doing is right out of Rules for Radicals. The media would just as soon ignore this fact.

Setting up the Tea Party, Cruz, and Boehner and calling them names; the punishment of the mass of Americans with petty closures; the threats to the financial establishment are all the same Chicago street thug life that this punk has used all of his life to get what he wants.

Let Jack Lew start paying down the debt and start finding cost savings. The pork has gone on continuously. The corn ethanol dodge is many billions. There are plenty of places to start.

[narcisoM]

Missed it, by that much;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/04/is-obamacares-celebrity-enrollee-actually-signed-up/

[Danube on iPad]

Have any of the talk radio people been encouraging young people to boycott this thing?

[dady]

SBW,

If you are around, I just want you to know that I have done my part for your son visiting Anchorage. I have made the weather today absolutely gorgeous---very blue skies, clear as a bell, and visibility easily 170 miles, since craning my neck from the porch I can see the peak next to Denali, which is 168 miles away as the crow flies. Temp is a very comfortable 45 F (sweatshirt weather), and all the leaves are still on the trees in splendid golden colors, just waiting for the wind to start dropping, but happily there's no wind.

If he gives a report, please pass it on to us. This would be a perfect day to get out of town and see the territory.

[sbwaters]

Jane, quick, run out and sock a LIV with the hand you burned.

Your hand will still hurt, but you will feel good and may have knocked some sense into the LIV.

[sbwaters]

Dady, thanks. Just texted your comment to him and will return any reports.

And when did you change your name?

[anonamom]

Mayo Clinic site says don't use ice, but I have for the numerous self-inflicted kitchen burns I get, and it works well for finger tips and forearms---my areas of repeated injury.

What did you do Jane?

[derwill]

If you're stupid enough to sign up for Obamacare, you might lose your identity and everything you own.

Is it good news or bad news that even Liberals and the LIVs aren't that stupid.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

I was baking bacon anonomom, and I put the mitt on backwards so not only did it sear into my 3 middle fingers, but I spilled yhe grease and started a fire in the oven. That's what
I get for taking the afternoon off.

[pagartoo]

Apparently no one is looking too hard for John McAfee since Google reports he is living in Portland Or.

[narcisoM]

A bewildering piece of prolefeed;

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=9273760

[GMax]

Via the WSJ apparently the polling is starting to sink in for some, probably some Red state Democrats up for election, but hey its a baby step forward:

...some House Democrats also sought to pressure their leaders to take additional steps to reopen the government. A group publicly endorsed repealing the health-care law's tax on medical devices—a long-held Republican priority—as a way out of the budget battle. The idea was quickly rejected by Democratic leaders but signaled lawmakers' growing frustration with the stalemate.

[Marlene]

Re:the national parks. The park rangers at Acadia said they will cite anyone they find in the park.Also,any cars blocking entrances or in parking lots will be towed. Bar Harbor is busy now,cruise ships are coming in and the foliage is beautiful. But an intrepid hiker,biker or kayaker could easily enjoy a lovely autumn day. :)