They'll Fix It, They'll Fix It Not...

The NY Times continues to pluck petals off a daisy as they assess whether the tech surge by Team Obama can save Healthcare.fail. Monday was a day for optimism as we learn about Whiz Kid Jeffrey D. Zients, "a multimillionaire entrepreneur and management consultant":

Ignoring friends who told him not to get mixed up in the website fiasco, Mr. Zients (pronounced ZYE-ents) promises it will run “smoothly for the vast majority of users” by the end of November — a schedule considered highly optimistic.

Mr. Obama’s reputation, and the electoral fortunes of Democrats, could hinge on the work of Mr. Zients, a man who has no hands-on technology experience — although he has advised health care companies on business practices. In the universe of experts who might have been called in for rescue work, Democrats close to the administration say, there were others perhaps more qualified than Mr. Zients, but he was the best of those Mr. Obama and an insular White House were comfortable with.

I know but bear with me, this really is the optimistic take:

In an interview, Denis R. McDonough, Mr. Obama’s chief of staff, called Mr. Zients a “force multiplier” who will deliver what he promises. He said the president had given Mr. Zients the same instructions he had given White House staff: “Get this fixed.”

I wonder if static on the line prevented the reporter from hearing Mr. Zients described as a "farce multiplier". Pressing on:

Mr. Zients told reporters on Friday that the site was getting “better each week” but “remains very slow and sporadic for many users.” He said response times — how long users wait for a page to load — now average less than one second, down from eight seconds. The error rate — how often system failures prevent users from advancing to the next page — is 2 percent, down from 6 percent, Mr. Zients said.

“We have a lot of work ahead of us,” he said, still promising that he would meet his Nov. 30 deadline.

So the front end experience for harried consumers is less ghastly. But what about the backend, where income verification and insurance bookkeeping is passed about? Ah, well, that was tackled in Tuesday's downbeat assessment:

Specialists said that most of the effort so far had been focused on eliminating the delays and timeouts that have so frustrated consumers trying to shop for and enroll in plans. More challenging, one person said, are the repairs to the more complex, invisible part of the system that draws information from various federal and state databases into a central base to determine eligibility and subsidies and confirms enrollment data.

Oh, dear. But help is on the way!

Some software engineers on the job have been replaced simply because they were too burned out to continue the late-night schedule. “A lot of the stuff people are doing now is going through the checklists they should have gone through before Oct. 1,” one specialist said.

On the two floors at an office building in suburban Virginia, visible evidence of President Obama’s promised new “tech surge” is slight. About 350 employees are hunkered over their computers — roughly 70 more than last month — trying to repair Healthcare.gov.

Several White House technology fellows, young enough to be mistaken by some as students, have taken over one office. Another change, said one person closely involved in the repair effort: “A lot of suits are walking around.”

And the Times finally notes what various bloggers pointed out weeks ago: adding new people to a software project is not like adding new people to a ditch-digging project:

Despite the White House’s suggestions that a cavalry from the Silicon Valley has arrived to save the day, specialists say that the online system cannot be fixed by adding manpower. Some experts argue that an influx of software engineers at this stage would slow down, not speed up, the repair effort.

“If you have got nine women that doesn’t mean you can have a baby in a month,” said Frederick P. Brooks, a computer science professor at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and one of the world’s leading authorities on software development. Rather, he and others said, fixing the system involves a painstaking slog through line after line of software code.

No one at this point can be certain how many fixes need to be made, specialists said, because some fixes expose new problems.

So, they'll fix it, they'll fix it not? Which is it? The Wednesday tie-breaker is delivered by the Washington Post:

Troubled HealthCare.gov unlikely to work fully by end of November

oftware problems with the federal online health insurance marketplace, especially in handling high volumes, are proving so stubborn that the system is unlikely to work fully by the end of the month as the White House has promised, according to an official with knowledge of the project.

The insurance exchange is balking when more than 20,000 to 30,000 people attempt to use it at the same time — about half its intended capacity, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to disclose internal information. And CGI Federal, the main contractor that built the site, has succeeded in repairing only about six of every 10 of the defects it has addressed so far.

I don't see a promising path out of this wreck. Bill Clinton's posturing notwithstanding, the idea of letting insurance companies offer, and customers retain, their cancelled policies is interesting but way too late. In the normal course of events, insurers would have proposed and state commissions would have reviewed rate increases for 2014. There is no reason to think that was done for policies that were not ACA-compliant, and no reason to think those polices can be priced and approved by December 15 (the target date to avoid a lapse in coverage for those whose polices are cancelled as of Jan 1). And setting aside mere reality, letting Young Invincibles buy cheap high-deductible insurance lets them off the hook for subsidizing the old and sick amongs us.

So people whose policies have been cancelled will just have to navigate the HealthCare.fail maze, and good luck to them.

 

 

 

Comments

[Jim Miller]

Brooks's Law: "Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later."

Brooks also advised software managers not to take "small slips" when you realize you won't meet a deadline. (Usually, there are problems that you haven't even recognized yet.)

This is not obscure advice. Fred Brooks's book is the most famous book on managing software projects -- by a considerable margin. (There's a decent write-up at Wikipedia, under "Brooks's Law">)

[Dave (in MA)]

Turns out she's a citizen of Colombia, isn't on Obamacare, and wasn't paid for the use of her likeness.

[Jack is Back!]

At least the Rep from Michigan asked the tech panel if they knew Brooks Law and none replied that they had. Huh?

"Brooks's law is a principle in software development which says that "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later".[1][2] It was coined by Fred Brooks in his 1975 book The Mythical Man-Month. The corollary of Brooks's Law is that there is an incremental person who, when added to a project, makes it take more, not less time. Brooks adds that "Nine women can't make a baby in one month".

Of course, this is more than software but the "tech surge" led by Bain Capital (isn't that the same outfit that killed steel workers?) is invoking Brooks Law right down the predictable failure.

EPIC isn't a big enough word for this fail.

[Jack is Back!]

...down to the predictable failure.

[jimmyk]

Deep down they must know that the real problems will begin once the site is fixed.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

C'Mon TomM-- you know exactly what Zients is doing-- no flower pedal pulling or tea leaf reading needed. On December 1st ObamaWebsite 2.0 debuts. It will be a Potemkin Village Website, that shows info to consumers, but doesn't actually interact and take personal data or enroll anyone. That substantive part of the Website will continue to be 404. Obummer will declare "Winning". Chaos continues.

[henry]

Well, Charles Wang (founder of Computer Associates) always reduced headcount to speed things up. That generally works. As far as when this will be "done", nobody is talking about testing schedules (esp. security testing). This mess still needs 6-9 months of thorough QA, maybe more. As a reference, my current launch was also a 3 year build, and will be closer to 10 months QA / fix / regression testing before we let customers at it. (Note: I spent somewhat less than $650 million).

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

I'm carrying over from the other thread. Yes Sir!, Caro, I will order the IPad 5 tomorrow. Did you get your cruise confirmation? Now I just need to know if Alice and Jimmy are coming so I can say I want to have dinner with them.

Re: Gluten free and the other stuff. I did gluten free for a while, or tried to but it was sort of absurd to me. Taking out process foods - when possible is a hell of a lot easier and incredibly delicious. It helps if you like to cook because it takes some effort, but the best part for me is that it is completely livable, and I don't crave the same things I have always craved. That's like being in heaven. It's also not a diet. I've been doing it for 6 weeks and I think I've lost 6 lbs. I eat everything I want and as much as I want - altho I am not a big eater except for carbs which I've pretty much eliminated.

As AB said the other night, it's not something you have to cling to if you go somewhere and they serve process foods. CLarice I doubt you have ever owned a processed food in your life, so neither of us would be a problem for dinner.

I'm not suggesting anyone try it. I'm suggesting we aren't the pains in the ass that we have been painted to be.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Henry-- can a site with greatly reduced capabilities be launched while they fix the substantive issues over the next 3-6 months?

[MaryD]

NK, what value would a site with "greatly reduced capabilities" have? What could a would-be shopper accomplish?

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

HealthGov image-- some Columbian imports are better than others. This past weekend I refereed a youth game and one of the kids' name on the back of their shirt was 'Vergara'-- I started looking around to see if his mom was a relative of Sofia.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

'General pricing' of ExchangeCare insurers and subsidy eligibility-- that's all ObummerCareWebsite 1.0 did until 'enrollment'.

[clarice]

Jane, my kitchen is your kitchen.

[clarice]

On the last post I linked to an article which might be a life saver for those who lost their insurance. Apparently there are short term--one year policies available outside of ACA.

[Beasts of England]

A 'force multiplier'? Damn, I'm adding that to my CV. And increasing my rate, of course...

[Jack is Back!]

NK,

I can answer before henry. The short answer is no if you to maintain quality. Incremental integration of systems including security, or in my line experience safety, will only make further system add-ons and integration more difficult.

The only way to do this correctly under QA/QC processes is with a 100% product not in incremental steps. We had to try this once with a high speed rail line and it didn't work. Part of the line was conventional track with conventional signalling and 80% was the high speed part with advanced track, power and signalling. PIssed off the customer because you had to step down then step up on speed and that compromised safety. We pulled the plug and delayed to the final project was done, tested and passed its operational perforamce requirements.

I imagine in software/web design its the same protocol.

[jimmyk]

Maybe it could just pretend to enroll people in really great plans for super low prices. Then hopefully none of them will get sick before November.

[Jack is Back!]

...if you want to maintain....

[Jack is Back!]

BoE,

What they need is an "agent of change" not a "force multiplier". A MOAB carried by a B-52 is a "force mulitiplier" in the truest sense.

[jimmyk]

Dems seem ready to fall on their swords rather than vote for a Republican "fix":

http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/house-democrats-frustration-with-obamacare-rollout-reaches-fever-pitch/

Kaptur said that Democrats were also discussing with Simas what other vehicles could be used to let caucus members express their frustration without having to vote “yes” on Upton’s legislation. One likely option is a Democratic motion to recommit that would fail on the House floor but would at least put members on the record as supporting some sort of remedy for Americans who have lost their preferred insurance plans.

Yeah, that'll work.

[henry]

TP sucks. JiB is optimistic.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

JiB--- OK. Somehow I assume Web design is more flexible than rail networks, but you may be right that there may be nothing new when 11/30 comes and goes. What a bunch of F-ups.

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

Kaptur is used to dealing with those brainless union humps who turned Toledo into a toilet so she's very familiar with voting for something that makes no sense.

[Dave (in MA)]

Screw Charles Wang.

[Beasts of England]

A MOAB can also be an agent of change, JiB! lol

[Ignatz]

Re the ipad discussion;
Never used AOL, never used an Apple product and my phone is so stupid it won't even know when I throw it in a lake the next time some moron I don't know or want to talk to leaves me an eight minute voicemail. Tablets are things I take when my electronics are giving me a pain.

Those Progresso soup commercials with the two tin cans and the string between them make me all misty eyed.

[Some Guy]

A 'force multiplier'? Damn, I'm adding that to my CV. And increasing my rate, of course...

Zients is more likely a 'bullshit piler', or what we used to call a 'powerpoint prodigy' (which wasn't a compliment).

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

OT-- RickB-- Obummer is polling 39-41% approval consistently now. Do you think he bottoms out here, or goes lower into the mid 30s? As you know, I think 38-39% is his floor. Thoughts?

[GMax]

About that Quinny Poll. Not only has Obamacare totally reversed whatever negative there was in the electorate about the shutdown vis a vis Republicans, but this is with a poll that is +6 Democrats. A off year election is going to be that Democratic? If you say so Quinny, but it has not happened anytime in my memory of elections so color me quite skeptical. Please I am cheating and reading Carville and Rothberg's urgent SOS to the Democrats. Minus eleven has such a nice ring to it, it really does.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

GMax@2:29-- good points. If 18-29s flip around to be Plus Repub, '14 could be a realign election.

[MaryD]

'General pricing' of ExchangeCare insurers and subsidy eligibility --- NK, it's my understanding that both of these functions are currently FUBAR -- returning erroneous data.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

OKay, now I have a really dumb question which will show my age, but c'est la vie. I asked Amy but she's a lesbian, and her kids are too young for her to know about this stuff.

In that new Obamacare ad,the woman says - "I have free birth control so all I need to to get that guy between the sheets."

When I was her age, we didn't have that as a goal. We might have wanted to date the guy, or marry the guy or something - but we didn't feel like we had to con the guy to sleep with him. You could pretty much sleep with anyone you wanted because we didn't and they wanted to.

At any rate I remember during the twerking thing someone commented that woman were being raised to be as aggressive as men, and to use them like men used to be accused of using women. And this ad seems to validate that.

Does anyone know if that is going on?

Or did all of you lead very different lives than I did?

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

Sebelius is making an announcement at 3PM. Apparnently all has been solved at the top.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

The Website in October gave 'general' info for 2 or 3 age ranges and gave misleading info by the 'show' rate being based the youngest age in the range. My guess is that they can 'fix' that rudimentary pricing feature, or make it less misleading, for Website2.0. Is that technically feasible without a full feature website functioning?-- I'll defer to the tech experts here.

[Ignatz]

--Sebelius is making an announcement at 3PM.--

Is seppuku* rated TV-MA?

FF's suggested spelling for "seppuku" is "Giuseppe". :)

[Porchlight]

You could pretty much sleep with anyone you wanted because we didn't and they wanted to.

It's a supply and demand issue. Once women decided in large numbers to become easy, men had lots more choices and then women had to compete. Thus the feminists pretended to empower women but actually ended up causing women to lose the age-old power they'd always enjoyed. I'd be laughing if it weren't so sad for society.

[rse]

Jane-that mindset is a definite problem among that generation of girls/women. Red and I actually talk about it and about a month into college last year she called and said "remember that advice you gave me? It would have been better if more parents explained that."

Plus I have people sending me links to how campus programs are doing university sanctioned programs on female orgasms. A fact I am not sharing with Red's dad or any other dad's of daughters. Bisexuality as a matter of an exciting possibility also gets aggressively pushed. It is as if the desire for cultural change is expunging all good sense of social norms that exist for a reason.

[GMax]

Let me guess, Kathleen has decided to spend more time with family? Lucky them ( eye roll).

[Jeff Dobbs]

Some Guy:
Zients is more likely a 'bullshit piler', or what we used to call a 'powerpoint prodigy' (which wasn't a compliment).

I originally did this in relation to Obama's handling of Libya, but with a little change here and a little modification there...

COL. NATHAN H. OBAMA: Son, we live in a world that has committees, and those committees have to be attended by men with legal pads. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Ted Cruz? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for your precious Constitution, and you curse turning over 1/6th of the nation's economy over to the federal government.

You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That sidestepping the Constitution, while tragic, probably saved a lot of effort on my part and will hopefully allow me to play more golf. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, means beautifully detailed PowerPoint presentations.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me delegating my staff to be on this committee, you need me assigning underlings to that committee. We use words like “affordability” and “if you like your plan you can keep your plan". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent making promises we hope no one notices we don't keep. You use them as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very white papers that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way.

Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a three ring binder over there on the conference table, pick a seat, and please put your cell phone on mute. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[Danube on iPad]

Caro orJane - can you please tell me some of the highlights of the iPad 5 over the 1?

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

Jane my younger daughter has told me that people of her age don't think of sex in the same way as my generation does.

[jimmyk]

Does anyone know if that is going on?

I don't think women are "using" men, because as you suggest, men are happy to sleep with anyone, even moreso if they feel as though there are "no strings attached." But what does seem to be happening is that a lot of young men and women have never been in a serious monogamous relationship, just lots of "Friends with Benefits" deals. Then the women hit 30 or 35 and wonder what happened, while the men in their 30s start looking to women in their 20s.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

rse-- girls are funny. My daughter went to a very progressive fancy pants New England boarding school. In the school dorms (15-18yos) there was some obvious lesbianism, a small number of girls who 'dabbled' and the significant majority of straight girls. That experience--according to my daughter-- made the straight girls and dabbling girls, VERY straight.

As to my daughter and boyz? I never asked don't want to know. Why? because I'm a coward and wilful blindness works for me.

[Porchlight]

Reposting from old thread -

Happy birthday, sbw! I hope it is a lovely day enjoyed with family.

[centralcal]

I still have my first generation iPad, but now I really, really, want the iPad Air. My boss got one - much lighter in weight, which I really would like with my little hands.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

jimmyk@2:53 explains why I engage in wilful blindness when it comes to my daughter and boyz. "A man has got to know his limitations."

[Account Deleted]

"Do you think he bottoms out here, or goes lower into the mid 30s?"

NK,

Dunno. If the Lyin' King aspect is coupled with personalization (think Alinsky) wrt to the pathetic failure he may drop to 32-34 in March. The progs are personally affronted by the fact their unicorn just can't get off the ground, even though the finest sophistry ever mouthed has gone into the effort.

He's making the progressives look as stupid as reality has proven them, time after time after time, to be and they have to put their hate somewhere.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

Dot,

I'll let you know when I get it. I know it has Retina vision, is faster and has lots of aps. You can also get a cellular option which I'm not getting, and it is a lot sleeker. Other than that I have no clue. My neighbor works for Apple - and she recommended it a few months ago before it came out.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

RickB-- interesting about the Progs. I assume some of the far left Progs rally round the Obummer as he drops, and that will balance out his loss of 'moderate' support. But what if, as you suggest, the hardcore Progs turn on him instead? It's a possibility I hadn't considered.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

Porch, the supply and demand thing makes perfect sense. Come to think about it, it's probably the same situation at my age.

RSE, what was your advice?

[(A) nuther Bub]

You could pretty much sleep with anyone you wanted because we didn't and they wanted to.

Lol, Jane: perfectly stated.

I married in my early 20s, as did most others at that (ancient) time, and the seldom stated but main impetus toward marriage was that was the only accepted way of having a sex life. Taking the long view, I see that as a good thing for individuals and society and believe women have been harmed immeasurably by sexual "freedom." That old saying about "when milk is so cheap," is pretty accurate, I'm afraid, and many women who did not wish to be single for a lifetime have ended up so.

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

NK, as I stated in the other thread, the far left has to be livid with the JEF for effectively terminating the chances for single payer.

[Ignatz]

-- My neighbor works for Apple - and she recommended it a few months ago before it came out.--

Well, what better recommendation could there be? :)

[Old Lurker]

NK: "As to my daughter and boyz? I never asked don't want to know. Why? because I'm a coward and willful blindness works for me."

In one post, NK displays why he and I are brothers by different mothers.

[Porchlight]

Completely agree with your 3:10, (A)B. That was not the experience of my generation, but I wish it had been. I made a LOT of mistakes in my 20s.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

OL-- "A man has got to know his limitations."

[Account Deleted]

NK,

I was thinking about the Emmanuel Goldstein response to Ms Gottlieb and considering whether progressive scum would start pumping venom upstream as the idiocy of their program became blindingly apparent. They may turn on Secretary Syphilis first but I doubt her head would enough to satisfy their rage at being revealed, again, as completely incompetent.

[Old Lurker]

Regarding my iPad comment about getting to the end of a long JOM thread, please go see John's post at about #790 on the "Not a Lie" thread.

[minorjb@aol.com]

"I married in my early 20s, as did most others at that (ancient) time, and the seldom stated but main impetus toward marriage was that was the only accepted way of having a sex life"

Same here. My mother had me convinced that all men followed the rule "why pay for the milk if you can get it for free" (or something old fashioned like that.)

Though, in re-reading this to edit, I see that I show I valued a marriage and family more than I valued a profession. Perhaps that is what is so different.

Our daughter didn't believe a word I said about boys. I'd tell her 'don't let them use you' ... and other old saws. I guess she had grown up in a sex-saturated culture and believed its promises, not me. Though I don't think bi-sexual or lesbianism was popular in our region of the country, just going to the doctor (without your parent's knowledge) and getting a birth control prescription. When I learned (a few years later) she had done that, I was hurt. But, a psychologist friend told me my daughter was intelligent and exhibiting responsibility in that choice. Now I'm glad she did. Two of her high school friends (one in sophomore year) had abortions. Two girls from "nice" families.

I actually have a physical reaction when I see the news and see the hysterical fans and adoration showered on people like Miley Cyrus and Lady Gaga (reminds me of how much I despised Madonna and her "Like a Virgin" hit song when my daughter was in school. I tried but couldn't turn my daughter against her. Though, my daughter never acted or dressed like that--she was an athlete, four year starter on basketball team and on track team, now runs marathons.

Culture, to my mind, has so-o-o-o-o much to do with what is going on. And, culture starts in the home, I think. We've allowed the feminists and the left to overwhelm us.

[Joan]

Goodness me, I don't know how my email address got shifted to my name. I didn't do that! I saw that yesterday and hoped it wasn't noticed. Meant to remove it. Sorry.

[Jack is Back!]

test.

[Old Lurker]

I saw it Joan and quickly sold it for $50 to some guy in Russia. That was OK wasn't it?

[Joan]

About your question, Jane, about the ridiculous and repulsive ad on the obamacare and birth control pills, and the twerking, etc., I do think our culture has become so vulgar that anything goes today.

We've let raunchy, young high school and college graduates (mostly gross young men) take over the main influence on us -- our television and movie and music. No obscenity is too overboard, no situation too graphic not to be portrayed in 'situation' comedies or what pass as song lyrics or movies.

The good manners of the past are gone. My mother attributed it all to feminists wanting power. Perhaps she was correct. They certainly drowned out the rest of us.

[Joan]

Yes, OL, I do hope that you realize I support 50 orphans and scrub floors at an elder care facility just to pay my internet bill. :)

May the Russians' check bounce on you!

[Joan]

Another thing, OL, please don't tell my husband about my "secret" :), he would flip and imagine I've given away our security. He still doesn't trust online banking and won't use the drive-thru at fast food outlets. :) Technology rattles him.

To be honest, it wears me out too.

I hope it totally wears out val jar and her prodigy. :)

[Joan]

off now. :)

[Porchlight]

Agree with everything you've written, Joan.

Jane, your 3:08 is interesting. I guess things never change.

[clarice]

Well, what did Sibelius say?

[Old Lurker]

Hey Joan, he's not crazy.

To this day I maintain a completely separate account for my ATM card. The ATM account has no electronic links of any kind to any of my real accounts and can only be fed by depositing a paper check into it from me. Nothing in my head or in my wallet can change that, and nothing in my wallet has electronic access to any of my other accounts.

[clarice]

National Journal:HealthCare.gov has performed even worse than expected. Fewer than 27,000 people selected a plan through the website, compared with roughly 79,000 who picked a plan through the 15 state-based insurance exchanges. Unofficial estimates leaked earlier this week suggested the federal website had done slightly better.

Looks like a nationwide strike to me.

[jimmyk]

Hey Joan, he's not crazy.

We were victims of fraud/ID theft seven years ago or so. It didn't really cost us anything but time and hassle, as the bank took responsibility for the large checks that were written with forged signatures. But we never were told how the perps gained access to our account.

[centralcal]

OL, you are a wise man - the bane of identity thieves and hackers, I am sure!

Aw, what embarrassing news, Clarice. Only 27K? Bwahahaha!

I agree with everything (A)B and Joan said, too. I got the same milk, cow, free milk, talking to when I was growing up.

[Beasts of England]

Bullshit piler. Added. Damn, what a constructive day!

[Marlene]

Jane,it depends on the quaint notion of a value system that a young girl learns. Our daughter had the benefit of a strong extended family and growing up in a small town. She didn't have a serious boyfriend until she was in her twenties. She was too focused on her career. We actually wondered if she would get married (she's 36) but as I announced in August,she's getting married next spring.

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

How many of those Fed + State enrollees are in the age group that this Madoff scheme depends on? I'll bet less than 5%. And now that the previously uninsured young are hearing about the incompetency of a technically void government and its lies, how do they feel about signing up just to give someone else their discounted health-care?

No way can this work at the policy and political intentions level. Its much more than a faulty website, the lie of socialism and wealth distribution are being brought to light in technicolor directed by John Ford with assistance from Alfred Hitchcock.

[Old Lurker]

Jimmy, just think "Hit & Run, Photoshop, Color Printer" and you see the problem. Any check you wrote to anybody has all the other information they need.

Or if you don't have a color printer and check paper then a Wire Transfer Form and a fax machine works too...

[Beasts of England]

Not bragging, just adding something to the sexuality discussion. My two long-term post-marriage girlfriends were both bisexual.

[Old Lurker]

JiB I posted some funny follow on Lurker stories for you after your Makers Mark comment on the earlier thread.

[Jack is Back!]

I never have watched them except the excerpts from MRC but it will very interesting how MSNBC spins these numbers. Wanna bet 1) Republicans not supporting the plan and working to make it succeed, 2) the private sector contractors who took advantage of the over-worked focused bureaucrats, and 3) the POTUS had to keep his eye on Syria and Iran and he was focused like a laser on jobs.

[Beasts of England]

Oh, yeah - for the context part - they were both of the newer generation: mid-twenties.

[jimmyk]

OL, in our case they managed to pose as us (presumably online), request a change of address, and order new checks sent to their address. (Somehow the bank's suspicion was not aroused by someone claiming to have moved from the upper west side to East New York.) We're just not sure how they got into the account, because they also transferred a bunch of money from savings to checking before writing the checks.

[Joan]

BOE, 4:35. I don't know why, but I find that funny. :)

[Joan]

Maybe it's because we're adults, not children.

[Jack is Back!]

OL,

LOL. Went back to see the comments. My step-daugter (who by the way lives in Darnestown up the road from you) from a prior marriage (more privacy revelations) has a grandmother who is approaching 100. Lives in the UP but never gave up her nightly cocktail and listening to music. I use to go dancing with her at a local restaurant and night club there. I knew then she was the type to live that long.

[rse]

BOE-my problem is with the active promotion of that on campus. Acceptance is one thing, active proseletizing is another. Or when I saw some TV actress before I changed channel announcing how cool it was.

Jane-I told her and porch can probably relate that small colleges make it impossible to avoid anyone. People especially talk early on in freshman year and upperclass boys with steady gf's still think it is fun to see how many freshman girls they can get to sleep with them in 1st 2 weeks. Precisely what happened still.

Her comment was that the running into people in dining hall aspect the next day and all the girls who think sex is a good icebreaker and then wonder why no one calls them back was very sad and that their parents should have given them some advice.

But when you have an older brother you learn lots from their friends and you have few illusions. And hubby has told her since she was 10 that given a chance "men are pigs."

marlene-I was 31 when I got married and I swear half my parents friends were there to see who would take me on. I married a friend's client. But the idea I had my own house and a bmw and went to club meds by myself and even went to the ones in Bora Bora and Moorea for 10 days was quite alien to all those nice Baptist ladies.

Hubby said I wasn't looking so his guard was down. And I wasn't. I had decided I'd rather be alone with a good book than settle for someone who didn't interest me.

And I ended up with 3 kids. Go figure.

[Old Lurker]

Well rse you can be surprised by one, but the next two are on you!

:-)

[anonamom]

I'm up on this subject by necessity--my sons, as well as the children of my friends, are either in college, or out five years.

There's rarely such things as "girlfriends" on campus any more. Though at ND, cathyf, I was informed six years ago that it still existed "with the kids who actually plan on being virgins when they get married." And they do. Get married young. Some.

Everywhere else, it's s all "friends with benefits" at best, but what we'd have called one night stands more typically.
Girls get very, very drunk, in large part to excuse what follows--my younger son's theory.
Long articles on the subject with many interviews with the coeds show--surprise!--the girls are doing it in the hopes of a relationship coming out of it. Good luck with that girls.
Obviously, their mommas have failed to have the "why buy the cow when the milk is free" conversation.
But also--there are more girls/women than boys/men on campus at many schools--another factor.

Sadly, this has led to what Glenn Reynolds is posting on lately--what the feminists call "a rape culture" on campus.
I beg to disagree--though I do NOT doubt that some women are raped by acquaintances on campus--but these girls can't get shit faced drunk, have sex, then decide after the fact that they were raped. That by definition, sex while intoxicated means it cannot be consensual.
But that is pretty much how the school has to see it, because of federal directives on the subject. Males beware--guilty until proven innocent, though you aren't given the courtesy of facing your accuser.
Extremely soul/spirit-damaging environment.

[DrJ]

Long articles on the subject with many interviews with the coeds show--surprise!--the girls are doing it in the hopes of a relationship coming out of it.

This is not a unique characteristic of the young 'uns. My experience with dating when I was uncommitted (after a sadly failed marriage) was that all the women I dated wanted to jump into bed if not on the first or second date, certainly by the third.

I was very surprised. FWIW, that is about 15 years go.

[Beasts of England]

Sorry I was taken away from this thread the other day. By a girl, no less.

It's a brave new world out there. I'm not really sure how much I've revealed at JOM, but I have felt free to share quite a bit here, so here's a little more. I dated my ex through college, so whatever sexual revolution that was left over from the seventies, I only know about through friends. I was monogamous. Or damn near, ok.

Getting back into the dating world a few years back at age 49 was bizarre. I had heard the stories and was as prepared as possible, but that wasn't adequate. There are no rules.

[Beasts of England]

Per the bisexuality, my first long-term girlfriend after separating was a sexual free spirit. Again, not trying to be provocative, just informative.

We had gone to hear a band at my club and I came back from the bathroom to find her making out with a girl on the dance floor. I kinda watched for a minute (I was not the only one...) and when they broke apart, I asked her if she knew the other girl, she said no. She had been drinking pretty hard, but that wasn't the reason. Turns out, she dated other women the whole time she and I dated. For almost ten months.

I'll leave the stories of GF1 there and continue with GF2 next.

[Beasts of England]

The second long-term girlfriend had a 'best friend'. And she hung out with her every Wednesday, which was fine. And then I noticed that if we were doing something - even going out of town - allowances had to be made for her friend. I won't tell you how I found out about the sexual connection between the two of them - not what you think - but I did.

She also liked to go to strip clubs. And get lap dances from other girls. Very interesting. As we grew very much in love. I asked her about her attractions and she said the female figure from the waist down just blew her mind: hips, legs, ass, feet. Not that I could argue.

More after the end if the Georgia game. Wow!