Looking For Health Care Anecdotes

[LUCKY GUESS: A day later the Spokesman-Review has a chat with the woman I identified.]

In the Republican response to Obama's SOTU Congresswoman McMorris-Rodgers told us this about Obamacare:

Not long ago I got a letter from Bette in Spokane, who hoped the President’s health care law would save her money – but found out instead that her premiums were going up nearly $700 a month.

So what lucky "Bette" is having her switchboard light up this morning? Well, last November Ms. McMorris-Rodgers gave us a bit while discussing the problems with the Affordable Care Act:

It’s about Bette Grenier, who can’t afford the increased payments and is currently uninsured because of Obamacare.

Hmm. Her Joe the Plumber moment is imminent! There is a Bette Grenier in Spokane who heads a roofing contractor firm with ten employees.  And if (IF!!!) this is her little-used Facebook page, she is no fan of Hillary, so maybe she is no fan of Barack.

In any case, a small business owner might well have been in the market for private insurance and may well be looking at higher premiums under Obamacare. There were apparently 290,000 cancellations in Washington State and the state did not pick up onObama 's suggestion that they extend non-compliant plans for another year.

Paul Krugman is deeply interested in this, presumably as long as we can show the Congresswoman to be lying or misinformed:

I’d be interested, by the way, to know the details about the constituent described in the official GOP response, who supposedly faced a $700 a month rise in premiums. What kind of plan did she have? Did that number include subsidies? The ACA is supposed to keep health costs to 8 percent of income, so the only way you could get numbers like that is if the individual (a) had a really bare-bones policy offering hardly any protection and (b) has an income well over $100,000.

As to "an income well over $100,000", I am surprised that such an authority would fail to grasp that for unmarried individuals the subsidies disappear at $46,000. That said, a Silver Plan in Washington for a single mom age 58 (per WhitePages.com) and no kids with no subsidy would be $6,226 per year, which at $519/month is less than the $700/month premium hike we are examining.

So let's give her a hubby and take the income up to $94,300, where subsidies end (still less than $100,000, BTW, but presumably Prof. Krugman has deeper thoughts distracting him).

Now two 58 year olds with two kids are asked to pay $15,556 for a Silver Plan with an annual out-of-pocket maximum of $12,700. Yikes!

And speaking from personal experience, my wife and kids had their non-compliant but quite comprehensive Connecticut plan cancelled for non-compliance (no mental health coverage, which drove us crazy...); a comparable replacement Gold Plan was $600/month more, without subsidies. So personally, I score this anecdote as a "definitely maybe".

It will be interesting to see where the facts lead us. Trust but verify.

SHOW ME THE CLIFFS: Not to get all gloomy and pedantic but the passage from Prof. Krugman excerpted above displays a shocking ignorance of the economics of the ACA subsidies.

As already noted above, subsidies depend on marital status and the number of kids. The claim that they only disappear if "the individual" has "has an income well over $100,000" is only true if "the individual" is also married and has three or more eligible kids.

Per this chart from ObamaCareFacts.com, a single person with no kids loses their eligibility for subsidies at $46,000. And that implies a dramatic subsidy cliff - as the site illustrates, a family of four that is a dollar below the eligibility line ($94,200) can gain $3,550 in subsidies. Earn another dollar, and all of those subsidies disappear. Oops! Not that anyone will finagle their taxes as a consequence. Hmm, Pikkety and Saez will report on declining middle-class reported income, Obama (and Krugman!) will rail about rising inequality - it's a win-win!

But Krugman has embedded a second major misunderstanding:

The ACA is supposed to keep health costs to 8 percent of income...

"Health costs"? Come again? The subsidies are meant to keep premiums at (or near) 8 percent of income. Wait'll he gets a lod of the deductibles and co-pays!

The ObamaCareFacts site refers people to the Kaiser-Permanente subsidy calculator, so here we go: a family of four (non-smokers, national average, mom and dad are forty) earning $55,125 (taken from ObamaCareFacts site as 250% of Federal Poverty Line although Kaiser disputes that):

The premium, pre-subsidy: $9,700. Subsidies of $5,569 per year bring the premium cost down to $4,130 per year. That is 7.5% of $55,125. So far, so good.

However! The fine print, which I recall was initially obfuscated by the ObamaCare website, includes this, on deductibles and co-pays:

Your out-of-pocket maximum for a Silver plan (not including the premium) can be no more than $10,400. Whether you reach this maximum level will depend on the amount of health care services you use. Currently, about one in four people use no health care services in any given year.

If the family does spend $10,400 and hit the out-of-pocket cap I am pretty sure that will represent more than 8% of total income. Hey, insurance is complicated to buy.

Interestingly, Prof. Krugman recently lectured Bret Stephens of the WSJ on an appropriate corrections policy. Let's reprise that here:

Instead, he points to an online post he put out admitting, with a minimum of grace, that using nominal incomes was wrong.

Sorry, but that’s not what I — or, if I may speak for my employer, The New York Times — calls a correction.

What, after all, is the purpose of a correction? If you’ve misinformed your readers, the first order of business is to stop misinforming them; the second, so far as possible, to let those who already got the misinformation know that they were misinformed. So you fix the error in the online version of the article, including an acknowledgement of the error; and you put another acknowledgement of the error in a prominent place, so that those who read it the first time are alerted. In the case of Times columnists, this means an embarrassing but necessary statement at the end of your next column.

I have confidence that Prof. Krugman, with grace and alacrity, will correct these gross misrepresentations about the economics of the ACA subsidies. The impression he is currently promoting is that the subsidy phase-outs only hit the well-off and that total health care costs for a subsidized family are well-contained. Wrong and wrong again.

FROM THE CHAT WITH BETTE: We learn this about her health insurance options:

But the “nearly $700 per month” increase in her premium that McMorris Rodgers cited in Tuesday night’s GOP response to the State of the Union address was based on the priciest option, a $1,200-a-month replacement plan that was pitched by Asuris Northwest to Grenier and her husband, Don.

The carrier also offered a less expensive, $1,052-per-month option in lieu of their soon-to-be-discontinued catastrophic coverage plan.

...

She said she contacted the congresswoman late last year to complain after getting a letter from Asuris Northwest advising that her $552-a-month policy no longer would be offered. She sent the congresswoman’s office a copy of the letter, which included the rate quotes for the suggested replacement policies.

Although the couple’s catastrophic plan had a $10,000 deductible, it included four doctor visits per year at no additional out-of-pocket cost, she said.

The replacement policies offer lower deductibles and broader coverage, she said, but they didn’t include the doctor visits at no extra charge.

No mention of kids, who might well be past the age of 26. As to the notion that her old plan was "catastrophic" with a $10,000 deductible, how would she characterize the Silver plan noted above with a maximum out-of-pocket of $10,400?

But down to cases! Per the Kaiser site, two adults with no subsidy in Washington are looking at a Silver plan costing $12,453 per year. The annual out-of-pocket cap (excluding the premium) is $12,700, so this does not strike me as a lot less catastrophic than their old plan (although we lack information about their old co-pay rate, but they do have the four "free" doctor visits.)

So the old plan was $552/mo; the new one is $1,038/mo. Quelle difference! That is $486/mo., and quite close to the "$1,052-per-month option" mentioned in the story. I have no doubt a Gold Plan costs more, but I doubt the deductibles are comparable.

Since Ms. Grenier did send her Congresslady a letter indicating the cost of her old plan as well as price offers for various replacement alternatives, I would say the heat, if any, is on Ms. McMorris-Rodgers. That said "nearly $500 per month" would have been as useful a sound-bite and essentially accurate.

And Prof. Krugman's objections included this:

We don’t know the particulars here, but many if not most stories of rate shock turn out to involve people who didn’t actually apply for a policy, and therefore never found out what it would really cost.

That seems to be answered. We eagerly await his corrections, clarifications and amplifications. I certainly hope that in the course of noting Ms. McMorris-Rodgers exaggerations he corrects his own over-enthusiams. (My breath is unheld).

 

Comments

[Ignatz]

--Why would anybody buy a high-deductible policy with a deductible so high he couldn't pay it? He'd be beter off remaining uninsured.--

People who have been in the system also learn that most hospitals and many doctors will go out of their way to work with patients on payment plans or forgiving parts of bills that they simply can't afford and people adjust their insurance policies reflecting this reality. Absent the goddamned government it's a pretty rational market with people pursuing their own best interests after weighing their options and making voluntary decisions reflecting those interests.

[Porchlight]

Donald, glad you got home okay...

[Frau Schafskopf]

If the pie even starts shrinking, there will be a lot of unhappy people in the streets and they won't be dancing.

[Ignatz]

--Who I am is irrelevant.-

You state your charges are serious but then claim who you are is irrelevant? That is not a rational response.

You may very well be unAmerican, but what you certainly are, and this is a fatal flaw in a troll, boring beyond words.
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz...........

[Ignatz]

--I did get to pee right in the middle of Howell Mill so that was cool.--

I don't know what a Howell Mill is but I still LOLed.

[Miss Marple]

I have known that Clarice knows quite a few people in Washington, well before I came to this blog. The reason is that I read her column regularly.

In the same manner, I know that Victor Davis Hanson, Dennis Miller, and a host of other pundits, columnists and radio talk show hosts know a lot of people in Hollywood and DC. This is neither surprising nor a conflict of interest.

Why should this surprise anyone? I am mystified, except that since the names Wolfowitz and Perle seem to come up in anti-semitic tirades by people who think there is a vast Jewish conspiracy to control everything, the similarity in accusatory tone and world view seems to be more than a coincidence.

So as far as I am concerned, that is what this is all about and I refuse to give such a person any credibility or courtesy.

[Account Deleted]

TC,

The Bundesbank announcement re refusal to continue bailouts without the beggars first giving a nice tight haircut on wealth, not income, is a much stronger Tale From the OPM Famine than MyRA. MyRA may be the camel's nose but there is no legislation backing BOzo's BIC.

Given the nature of progressive thievery, I'm all in favor of keeping a close eye on Obama and Lew but we really shouldn't completely ignore the flameouts in Argentina and Turkey. The OPM Famine shows no signs of subsiding.

[Stephanie smart enough to stay home when roads are icy]

Hey Donald! Didn't get stuck but my dil did see the previous day's thread for l the lowdown on Jomventures in the Atlanta.

[MarkO]

Irrelevant people should be disregarded.

Moreover, the point, however weak and misinformed, has been made here. No one cares. It is now not even pretend journalism, it is harassment.

[Truthbetold]

Miss Marple

That is as weak as Obama crowd crying racist.

[boricuafudd]

TBT

Your premise is wrong to start with. Knowing someone does not make it a conflict of interest by itself.

So what it is exactly you are accusing Clarice of doing? Where is the conflict of interest? As the term implies it means that Clarice gains some rewards from the relationship, so what is it that Clarice has done wrong?

Disclosing her friendship or knowledge of the particulars are not enough to make it a conflict of interest, so what ii it?

Simple enough questions, aren't they?

[Ignatz]

ZZZzzz.......

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Porch/Peter-- Obummer is already setting up what you posit. he is doing what I thought he would do post losing 11/12 (sigh). He is blaming racist and righty Amerika for any failure history deems him guilty of. According to Obummer, he is perfect, anything that was 'less than optimal' during his reign was OUR fault. More inequality? greedy white folk; fewer jobs? evil corporations; higher deficits? Repubs fault; unstable Middle East? Joooz fault etc etc. He is like the French Bourbons; shame he won't wind up like Louis.

[Truthbetold]

bori

Are you joking?

[lyle]

Okay. I'll come clean: I don't know anyone in DC.

[Truthbetold]

bori

Are you joking?

[lyle]

Although this MYra gal seems intriguing...

[MarkO]

Here's a quiz for the irrelevant:

Senator Ted Cruz ‏@SenTedCruz

You think a conflict of interest exists when major Dem donor heads IRS targeting investigation? AG Holder doesn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXnzZzLyCnQ&t=5m10s …

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Guys... your conversation with this troll is like talking to a plank of wood. You can reason with it, shout at it, whatever, it will still be a plank of wood. In fact, this particular plank of wood is paid to be a plank of wood. Do as you will, but it is pointless.

[Beasts of England]

Very good points, Miss Marple. I enjoy Clarice's comments and articles published at American Thinker. I take them at face value, and no conspiracy theory or attempted attacks on her character will change my enjoyment of her contributions here or anywhere else.

[boricuafudd]

TBT

Stop answering a question with another. Can you answer the question? If not, bug off!

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Clarice is a political conservative who disagrees with and campaigns against Left Wing ideology. BUSTED-- who knew?. End of chat.

[Truthbetold]

Yes, I do, and the fact that the GOP is not only fine with the attacks on the tea party but have participated in attacking the tea party. Sickens me.

[Stephanie smart enough to stay home when roads are icy]

I know people, lots of important people.

I'm an important person. So are Iggy and JiB and Sue and DoT and beasts and rse and porch and jane and drj and boricuafudd and Boris and Matt and Ann and Glenda and Donald and Kim and derwill and MarkO and hit and all the other posters here.

Didn't you know? We all know other important people, too.

Be careful, be very very careful. We know important people.

Did I mention that we are and know important people?

[boricuafudd]

Stop answering a question with another. Can you answer the question? If not, bug off!

[Truthbetold]

NK

You are clueless!

[Ignatz]

--Clarice is a political conservative who disagrees with and campaigns against Left Wing ideology. BUSTED-- who knew?. End of chat.--

Well, she also gets together with her neo con friends and makes matzos out of baby gentile blood, preferably cute little chubby paleoconservative babies.

[Stephanie a VIP with VIP friends beware!]

Hey gmax did y'all get snow you VIP?

[lyle]

Does Clarice know MYra? She'd better disclose it if true.

[LouP]

I guess I'm the dummy here. What's the difference in MYra and US Savings Bonds? Must be something in the fine print.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Ignatz@2:38-- Shhhhhhhhuuushhh.

[henry]

LouP, I suspect compulsion is the difference.

[Beasts of England]

Bonds have a stated return, MYra is subject to mood swings.

[lyle]

Compulsion combined with very little interest accrued, paid by money the US doesn't have.

[Donald]

I'm not important Stephanie, but thanks.

[lyle]

I'm not important either but, dang it, I know a snub when I see it! (I keed)

[derwill]

--You didn't miss all the talk about the state with the most JOMers per capita last night and this morning, did you?--

Hit, I guess I did miss it. I skimmed over a lot this morning, because truth be told, truthbetold's obsession bores the hell out of me.

What did I miss? Is it Idaho?

[Truthbetold]

NK

What do you think about the American Thinker taking down the Nadhmi Auchi story?

[rich@gmu]

"you will take this savings bond for your 401K...and you will like it."

other news: good call Sue. sinus infection that caused a partial perforation of the ear drum.

[lyle]

It MUST be Idaho. There are two other JOMers besides us, derwill.

[Account Deleted]

LouP,

It looks like a low fee Roth. Note that Lew/BOzo will pick the Chief Thief fund manager.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

RickB-- the Bundesbank rich folk 'bail in' announcement; I was going to mention that. Not a shock, they did it in Cyprus to rich Ruskies, why would anybody consider themselves exempt? The haircuts demanded by the Bundesbank is Bliztkrieg war on the EU asset owning class, only thing missing is ze Panzers. The OPM Famine is here, the political class is grabbing with both hands. The 2d Amendment may come in very handy in the USA. Pretty shrewd of those EUCrats to disarm their citizens over the past 50 years.

[rich@gmu]

derwill-

it was Idaho. now I know where to go!

[boris]

"The money spent on flu shots for healthy people and scrapes and bruises has little or no impact on research for advanced cancer and other drugs or multi million dollar scanners etc."

So letting corporations provide health insurance employee benefits as a pre-payroll expense has nothing to do with the advance of medical technology ... right?

Pretty sure you skipped a step or two if that's your point.

Hard to imagine opposition to it unless the problem is "unfairness". Why should anybody care if Google employees get top of the line insurance most individuals can't afford? Fairness ... right?

My position is letting corporations provide health insurance employee benefits as a pre-payroll expense does promote the advance of medical technology by financing a larger market and encouraging participation in it. I would say skeptics have the burden of disproof.

As a self employed contract developer of lab technology I can't afford the quality of insurance available to Google programmers ... but I certainly appreciate that what I can afford is vastly superior to what would be available to me without their financial incentives funding research that ultimately benefits everybody. "Fairness" is not a consideration IMO.

[Ignatz]

Gigantic brained Mia Farrow displays the infallible judgment that landed her that catch of the century Woody Allen
by siding with the quite obviously lying plaintiffs and judge in the case Lying, extorting commie Ecuadorians and US enviros and Shysters v. Chevron Inc.
Maybe keep an eye on the kids instead when their various fathers and stepdads are around, Mia?

[MarkO]

Mocking the troll is not the same as engaging it.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Ignatz-- the last sentence of that link could be the funniest thing I've read in 2014.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

MarkO-- agreed. I will continue to mock it.

[derwill]

I think Obama should issue an EO converting all government employee pension funds to MyRa.

Because we all know how when Obama and the government promises you something it's a gold-plated guarantee, right?

Kind of like if you liked your health insurance and your doctor you got to keep them.

[Ignatz]

--So letting corporations provide health insurance employee benefits as a pre-payroll expense has nothing to do with the advance of medical technology ... right?--

I couldn't care less what it does to the advance of medical technology nor do I give a fig about fairness.
It distorts a market that can function quite well on its own.
Granting the government the power to decide what should be encouraged by the tax code is a bad idea and should be discouraged and eliminated whenever possible.

[Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club]

I said "and all other posters"

Off the top of your head membering all the posters (especially those that haven't posted in a few hours - see yesterday's thread topic for why) is...difficult.

Donald you are too a VIP.

maybe I should not talk about fight club?

[MarkO]

Mock---ing,
Mock---ing,

Mocking Troll.

[GMax]

MyRA

No principal

Little interest!

Steph, there is a faint, very faint dusting that shows up mainline on the side of the sidewalk opposite the wind where the grass acts as a dam. Colder that Dante's lowest level though..

[Ignatz]

My Ra (I still prefer Solynd RA) is simply the private retirement and pension version of the first tentative steps by the goddamned illegitimate federal government into the private student loan business.

[boris]

"It distorts a market that can function quite well on its own.
Granting the government the power to decide what should be encouraged by the tax code is a bad idea and should be discouraged and eliminated whenever possible."

Are you equally outraged by 401K tax policy? IRA tax policy? Home mortgage tax policy?

[Thomas Collins]

http://www.blanchardonline.com/investing-news-blog/econ.php?article=6720&title=Germany's+Bundesbank+proposes+bankrupt+nations+hit+private+wealth+with+tax

Rick, given the state of matters as outlined in articles such as the one linked above, I agree that myRA at the moment barely qualifies as an itchy pimple on the butt of the world financial system.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

No worries, Obama said that MyRA has absolutely not risk. None at all. And it will make you rich.

[MarkO]

From my recent listening to Obama's minions and enablers, it appears that "You can keep your doctor" has devolved to "You can learn to be satisfied with the doctor we give you."

Instead of "We have the greatest health care in the world," we are at "Some who didn't have health care have it, as the rest of us will be OK."

This is chilling beyond my comprehension.
It is an enormous loss of freedom. I feel it.

[MarkO]

as=and

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

401(k)/IRAs and credit card balances are he last 2 big pools of money the Feds don't control. All other OPM has run out, they will make a play for the 401(k)/IRAs and probably the card balances as well.

[derwill]

JOMers are more than welcome in Idaho, rich. Trolls and libs, however, will have "hunting accidents."

(NSA--that was a joke.)

[Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club]

They are loading abandoned cars that are in the roadways and not on the medians onto car carriers and taking them somewhere so the plows can run.

Unfortunately they are not gonna charge the owners for being stupid enough to not move them onto the median before abandonment.

[Truthbetold]

derwill

Ever wonder how Obama slipped past the intel community?

[GMax]

I would be glad to donate my wife's credit card balance to Obama and ChuckU. Where do I mail the statement?

[Old Lurker]

Don't forget the Endowments of non profits, NK.

[MarkO]

derwill

Ever wonder why a duck?

[James D.]

NK, how are credit card balances a pool of money?

I suppose, in the same sense that student loans are - because rather than private companies making the loans and being repaid, and profiting via the interest, it'll be the government?

Which would - what? Buy the credit card debt from the banks?

[GMax]

MyRA

No principle

little interest

no maturity

A perfect match for Obama!!!

[derwill]

Everybody knows Obama is a CIA triple agent, tbt. Sheesh.

----

MarkO, I must be extra dense today--I don't get the duck joke.

[Danube on iPad]

"You're making serious charges which if false are rather defamatory."

To accuse someone of having a conflict of interest is libelous on its face, regardless of whether the basis for making the charge is silly, as it is here.

It is commonplace that people who share similar beliefs gravitate to one another, and when they write their acquaintances are likely to be mentioned in those writings. The idea that it is necessary to disclose the friendships is childishly stupid.

William F. Buckley, Jr. had lengthy friendships with, among others, Ronald Reagan and Henry Kissinger. He wrote frequently about both men. Is TBT dumb enough to contend that in those writings he was ethically bound to disclose those friendships?

I believe he is, but I really don't care.

[derwill]

Seriously, who do they think is going to invest in a MyRA voluntarily? Those stupid enough to do so, don't have the money. Those with the money have more investment sense.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

credit card balances-- much trickier for the Feds to grab-- NOT structurally more difficult, politically. The credit Debt is converted into one owed to the fed Gov't. You pay interest/principle to the Feds. You don't pay? it becomes a debit from tax refunds, or earned income tax credits, or ObummerCare subsidy, whatever. It broadens the class of 'folks' the Feds can grab from. Will Progs do this to their own voters? well if you believe Progs don't believe in elections, only their own power... why not? This all comes down to a question of political will. Personally, I think Obummer is waaay to much of a pussy to try to pull this. But if a financial crisis provides the opportunity....

[Ignatz]

--Are you equally outraged by 401K tax policy? IRA tax policy? Home mortgage tax policy?--

The the first two are a partial corrective to another illegitimate federal government intervention in markets with SS, but yep, all three should be eliminated.

[boricuafudd]

I think a point that no one is mentioning but we all know and that is that if we want to have savings for our retirement depending on #SS is not a good idea. Modest though this was, it is the first admission of that, outside of Republicans. Of course, the government guarantee...

[Jeff Dobbs]

Mark O

Ever wonder why an anagram of Truth Be Told is The Butt Lord?

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

There would be nothing 'voluntary' about 'MyRAs' or the seizures which would fund them. They would be imposed by blunt political power under the cover of the next financial crisis that requires Fed Reserve or Treasury intervention. The criss happen regularly-- the 1982 Soc sec cash flow problem, 1989 S&L collapse, Mexican default, Asian currency crisis, Russian default, Argentine Default, DotCom stock collapse, 2007 Housing Bubble burst, 2008 MBS/Lehman/AIG/Fannie Mae collapse, Greece/Spain/Irteland sovereign debt bailout. The next one will come along soon enough.

[Old Lurker]

Since IRA's have existed for decades, derwill, then only somebody buried deep in Obama's 37% could be stupid enough to do what he says.

But I repeat myself don't I?

[Old Lurker]

And I will not even whine about being one of Steph's "others"...

[Beasts of England]

The spooks probably couldn't find his college transcripts either.

[Jane-Rebel Alliance1]

Seriously, who do they think is going to invest in a MyRA voluntarily?

I hear Pajamaboy is all in.

[Truthbetold]

Dunube

Keeping in mind that you are mentally challenge, I will explain it to you.

Clarice Feldman publicly attacked the credibility of Sibel Edmonds who made serious allegations against one of her friends, Richard Perle.

Feldman's attack on Edmonds lacked any factual basis, and she did not disclose her close personal relationship with Perle.

A close personal relationship that constituted a conflict of interest in that circumstance.

Can you wrap your brain around that? IF not, ask Clarice to explain it to you.

See what she says.

[Ignatz]

Barry on My RAs;

And while the stock market has doubled over the last five years, that doesn't help folks who don't have 401ks. That's why, tomorrow, I will direct the Treasury to create a new way for working Americans to start their own retirement savings: MyRA. It's a new savings bond that encourages folks to build a nest egg. MyRA guarantees a decent return with no risk of losing what you put in. And if this Congress wants to help, work with me to fix an upside-down tax code that gives big tax breaks to help the wealthy save, but does little to nothing for middle-class Americans. Offer every American access to an automatic IRA on the job, so they can save at work just like everyone in this chamber can.

Leaving aside that virtually anyone can set up an IRA or SEP already, the more the tax burden is shifted to the wealthy then quite obviously the more difficult it will be to give tax breaks to the untaxed, bright boy.

[Danube on iPad]

"My position is letting corporations provide health insurance employee benefits as a pre-payroll expense does promote the advance of medical technology by financing a larger market and encouraging participation in it."

I was gearing up to respond, but Iggy's 3:03 beat me to it. I would add that, to the extent that more money flows to medical technology, less money flows to other markets. Why should medical technology be preferred over other goods and services?

And yes, I am opposed to the home mortgage deduction, 401k tax policy and IRA tax policy. All are examples of using the tax code to induce behavior politicians think is desirable. (I can deduct the mortgage interest on my ski condo, but the mailman can't deduct the interest on his car payments. This does not strike me as sound policy.) One of the pernicious attributes of such efforts is the near-impossibility of ever doing away with them.

[Truthbetold]

Danube

Why do you think American Thinker took down the Nadhmi Auchi story?

[Ignatz]

The Bezos Gazette breaks some unhappy news to its half-witted readership. Fortunately there are big colorful graphs if they lose their place with their fingers.
The Incredible Shrinking Blue State Advantage.

[Frackin Jack and his Methane cowboys]

Heh. THIS is because liberals are only slightly less odious than conservatives. It's time for a reset on Capitalism in toto.

"Thomas Piketty’s new book, “Capital in the Twenty-First Century,” described by one French newspaper as a “a political and theoretical bulldozer,” defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism.

Piketty, a professor at the Paris School of Economics, does not stop there. He contends that capitalism’s inherent dynamic propels powerful forces that threaten democratic societies.

Capitalism, according to Piketty, confronts both modern and modernizing countries with a dilemma: entrepreneurs become increasingly dominant over those who own only their own labor. In Piketty’s view, while emerging economies can defeat this logic in the near term, in the long run, “when pay setters set their own pay, there’s no limit,” unless “confiscatory tax rates” are imposed.

Piketty’s book — published four months ago in France and due out in English this March — suggests that traditional liberal government policies on spending, taxation and regulation will fail to diminish inequality. Piketty has also delivered and posted a series of lectures in French and English outlining his argument.

[GMax]

Key players in the inequality controversy include economists Emmanuel Saez of Berkeley and Thomas Piketty of the School of Economics in Paris;

I AM SURE THAT PIKETTY WILL DONATE ALL THE EARNINGS FROM HIS BOOK TO CHARITY, RIGHT?

[Ignatz]

--defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism--

Indeed. Who has ever heard that argument from a left winger before? Insert eye rolling emoticon.

[Truthbetold]

Danube

Perhaps you can tell Clarice you thoughts on libel and defamation while you're at it.

[boris]

"I can deduct the mortgage interest on my ski condo, but the mailman can't deduct the interest on his car payments. This does not strike me as sound policy"

My take on this is comments like the above are pretty obvious calls to "fairness" ... but which is denied based on some pure principle about the role of government.

Until a completely logical, well constructed, guaranteed improvement in government tax policy comes along ... I just do not have a problem with Google using pre-payroll expenses for employee health insurance. In fact I welcome it, even though it apparently upsets many others who do feel it unfair that the lucky few get the best and the rest get less. I am so relieved that no one on this site objects on that basis.

[cathyf]

And while the stock market has doubled over the last five years, that doesn't help folks who don't have 401ks.

Gee, my IRAs have done real well when the stock market goes up. The one I started with my first job back in 1985. DrF's 403b has done even better.

Is he really THAT stupid? Yeah, I guess he is...

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Ignatz 2 things-- WAPO/Gallup-- less there than meets the eye. Party affiliation is dropping, except for Indies and the non-existent TP. Winning statewide elections is coming down to winning 'Indy' voters.

Your 3:45; not to sound more like Ignatz than Ignatz, but the Obummer MyRA makes no sense and could never happen without an element of confiscation and involuntary conversion of current 401(k) and IRAs.

[bgates]

MyRA guarantees a decent return with no risk of losing what you put in.

-Barack Obama

you know that crooks talk about “guaranteed” high returns to try to sucker you into sending them your money...[You should] run, not walk from people who tell you a high return is “can’t miss” or “guaranteed.”

-the Securities & Exchange Commission

[mumbly peg]

Hey Daddy-O: Rumors are that Fed Ex crews are being instructed to decontaminate on return from certain flight destinations.

Have you heard?

[Beasts of England]

Take that statist bullshit, Frackin, and shove it up your ass. To suggest that a nation-state should take more money out of the hands of the people who earned it by successfully navigating the brutality of the free market and hand it to those who don't possess those skills - or, more precisely, those who don't even try to cultivate said skills - is stupidity of the highest order. Moron.

[cathyf]

Hey, this brings up a question -- does anybody know (from Obama's financial disclosures) whether he has a TIAA/CREF account from when he was at the UofC? It's one of the most valuable parts of the total compensation package, and opting out would show his utter foolishness and ignorance of good personal finance.

[boris]

"Take that statist bullshit, Frackin, and shove it up your ass"

Pretty sure that's impossible because Cleo's head is already there.

[Ignatz]

Although I'm somewhat perplexed why government induced disparate treatment of its citizens is not a legitimate thing to object to I'm sorry to disappoint you Boris by saying my objection to tax policies is not motivated by that disparate impact.

[NK(withnewsoftware)]

Piketty? I prefer Hayek and Tocqueville who warn us about the real threats to USA liberty-- Corrupt political cronies who use the power of the state to undermine individual liberty. Wealth and markets are a cure to privation and poverty, the threat to prosperity is corrupt men who partner with the state to steal our freedom to make our own economic choices. This has and always will be the threat.

[bgates]

My take on this is comments like the above are pretty obvious calls to "fairness"

My take on that take is that you don't merely consider fairness to be a good thing which can be subordinate to other good things, you consider it an evil to be resisted, and if the mortgage interest deduction had no effect on the world other than to make it less fair you'd support it for that reason.

I just do not have a problem with Google using pre-payroll expenses for employee health insurance. In fact I welcome it, even though it apparently upsets many others who do feel it unfair that the lucky few get the best and the rest get less.

I'm sure it does upset many others for that reason, but that's not what bothers anybody you're arguing with here.