They Lost Me With 'Hello'

Glenn links to Stacy Mccain, who is fired up about this new Harvard/Berkekey study on income inequality and intergenerational economic mobility. I will revert to Mr. McCain momentarily but first let me deplore the lead sentence to the NBER working paper:

The United States is often hailed as the "land of opportunity," a society in which a child's chances of success depend little on her family background.

Says who? This is certainly a convenient definition for a team of economists who are embarking on a measurement of outcomes and hoping to pass it off as a measure of opportunity, but who really believes that parents have no influence on the success of their kids? Just by way of example, one might suspect that financial success is influenced by some combination of intelligence, good looks, height, good health, and high energy. All of these factors are subject to genetic inheritance, so one would not be surprised to see the child of successful parents having a bit of a head start. Other traits, such as self-discipline (aka impulse control) or a love of learning can be taught, but are more likely to be exemplified by parents who already possess those traits.

So, to pick an example almost at random, one might expect Sasha and Malia Obama to become successful women based on the genetic gifts and cultural values passed on by their parents. Who among us will attribute any of their future success merely to their parent's high income?

Gary Becker has lots on this; a snippet:

The relation between intergeneration mobility and meritocracy becomes still more complex after we recognize that earnings in a meritocracy would depend not only on cognitive abilities, such as IQ. For it depends also on investments in education and other human capital, on getting to work on time, on being able to take criticism, and on many other psychological characteristics. Families that are more educated and have high earnings tend to invest a lot in their children’s human capital, and in various non-cognitive traits. In a merit-based economy where earnings depend on the totality of abilities and skills, children of high earning parents would also tend to be high earners because their parents would pass on both cognitive skills and investments in various forms of human capital.

Even after including parental investments in education, non-cognitive traits, and other human capital of children, an economy where success and failure are determined by merit would still have low intergeneration mobility. To be sure, investments in education and many other types of human capital are not only determined by parents, but also by government policies and by philanthropists. To the extent that governments and philanthropists invest more in the human capital of children with less successful parents (as appears to be the case for governments in Scandinavian countries), a merit-based economy could have relatively high intergenerational mobility since children from poorer and less educated families might have high levels of human capital investments.

Nevertheless, a big jump is still required to make inferences from the intergeneration mobility in a country to the role of merit in determining success and failure in that country. In particular, although the United States has considerably lower intergeneration mobility than many Western European countries, this does not imply that merit is a less important determinant of success in the American economy than in these other economies.

And all of that said, I further dispute that "the American dream" was ever a claim that one parent's were irrelevant. This is James Truslow Adams, no relation to the Oresidential family:

Adams coined the term "American Dream" in his 1931 book The Epic of America. His American Dream is "that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."

By way of contrast with a Europe of landed nobles and hereditary guildsmen, America was notably lacking in barriers to self-improvement and advancement.

Now to pick up on Stacy McCain's point - he is deeply dubious of a study that tells us that West Virginia is more of a land of opportunity than, say, Silicon Valley or New York City. Good point!

By way of illustration, here are San Jose, NYC and a few beacons of opportunity from West Virginia:

San Jose

California

12.9%

New York

New York

10.5%

Spencer

West Virginia

14.7%

Buckhannon

West Virginia

12.6%

Welch

West Virginia

16.0%

These results reflect the probability that a child who was "raised" in the locale above in the lowest economic quintile (really, living there at about age 15 regardless of prior or subsequent movement) will eventually rise to the top quintile *of their age cohort* by about age 30. Parts of West Virginia have it all over the Big Apple or the biggest city in Silicvon Valley, which activates Mr. McCain's BS detector:

Stipulating that the data in the study is complete and accurate, and that everything in the analysis is legit — well, why is there a bright spot on the resulting map in the vicinity of Tuscaloosa, Alabama, but no corresponding bright spot near Athens, Georgia? Why does rural Arkansas look like a beacon of upward mobility, while the bustling economies of Atlanta and Charlotte produce no such effect?

Most of all, why does the map referenced by O’Brien show that impoverished Appalachia offers more opportunity for advancement than any of the more prosperous surrounding flatlands?

To use a social science term: Your data is obviously fucked up.

Well, that's as maybe. Eric Mertz commented over there with a follow-up on his blog, noting that the decision to fix children to one locale based on where they were at approximately age 15 is fraught with implications.

I will say this: the authors attempt to check the validity of that assumption and conclude that all is well. I am a non-buyer and suspect that a deeper dive into the data would unearth trouble in paradise. But first, their comments in anticipation of this objection:

We permanently assign each child to a single CZ based on the ZIP code from which his or her parent led their tax return in the first year the child was claimed as a dependent. We interpret this CZ as the area where a child grew up. Because our data begin in 1996, location is measured in 1996 for 95.9% of children in our core sample. For children in our core sample of 1980-82 birth cohorts, we therefore typically measure location when children were approximately 15 years old.

For the children in the more recent birth cohorts in our extended sample, location is measured at earlier ages. Using these more recent cohorts, we nd that 83.5% of children live in the same CZ at age 16 as they did at age 5. Furthermore, we verify that the spatial patterns for the outcomes we can measure at earlier ages (college attendance and teenage birth) are quite similar if we define CZs based on location at age 5 instead of age 16.

So that is reassuring. This, however, is far less so:

Importantly, the CZ where a child grew up does not necessarily correspond to the CZ she lives in as an adult when we measure her income (at age 30) in 2011-12. In our core sample, 38% of children live in a different CZ in 2012 relative to where they grew up.

That is a lot of movement, so they offer a bit of a breakdown:

44.6% of children who grow up in rural areas live in urban areas at age 30. Among those who rose from the bottom quintile of the national income distribution to the top quintile, the corresponding statistic is 55.2%.

So the poor move even more than the average. This final test reassures them but not me:

In row 8 [of Table V, p. 68], we assess the extent to which the variation in intergenerational mobility comes from children who succeed and move out of the CZ as adults vs. children who stay within the CZ. To do so, we restrict the sample to the 62% of children who live in the same CZ in 2012 as where they grew up. Despite the fact that this sample is endogenously selected on an ex-post outcome, the mobility estimates remain very highly correlated with those in the full sample. Apparently, areas such as Salt Lake City that generate high levels of upward income mobility do so not just by sending successful children to other CZs as adults but also by helping children move up in the income distribution within the area.

"Apparently"?!? As best I can follow, they looked at the aggregated data for Commuting Zones ("CZ") both large and small and and concluded that dropping the kids who eventually moved didn't change the results much. But that means that CZs with a large population, such as New York, will drive the population-weighted result and swamp whatever story the data might be trying to tell about Spencer, West Virginia.

So when they write that "apparently" Salt Lake City is seeing a combination of kids succeeding in the area and kids succeeding after moving away, my not-so-unreasonable question is, what did the data actually show for Salt Lake City specifically, as opposed to the aggregate? In the data tables all I can find is that without weighting for population the result for "8. Children who stay within CZ" has a correlation of 0.87 with the baseline estimate. However, when they re-weight by estimated population, the correlation rises to 0.95. That makes me think that rural areas are showing a much weaker correlation than urban areas. That overlaps with their comment that rural areas show a lot more movement, but the overall impoact is not to reassure.

And I am not at all sure what to make of this. Are we to conclude that Welch, WV is a great place to be born because it is easier to leave and prosper elsewhere? Or that being poor in Atlanta is dreadful but not so dreadful that people actually leave? Baffling.

GO AHEAD - MAKE MY DAY. Ask about Denmark.

Comments

[Beasts of England]

It must be the full-employment trees, narciso.

[Rob Crawford]

Seems to me Perkins asked a question worth asking. The left's reaction doesn't erase the memory of a horde of their useful idiots terrorizing a man's family because he's an executive at a bank, or their anger at having the RNC bomb plot uncovered.

[narciso]

It was a poor choice of words, one could reference Hollande's tone deaf tax scheme, the doings in Nostromo, I mean Venezuela and other matters.

[Captain Hate]

Somebody else went ahead of Jordan in that draft. Without googling, I'll guess that it was LaRue Martin, for whom I once named a cat.

Hakeem Olajuwon was the #1 choice in that draft; at least he was a HOFer and was on a team who won two championships (when Jordan was on his baseball sabbatical). NBA GMs lose their minds. Yes, LaRue was an all time bust, far worse than Sam Bowie who had a fair, albeit injury shortened, pro career.

[Captain Hate]

I meant to say GMs lose their mind over big guys, especially ignoring Knight's advice. I'll always respect the memory of Al McGuire who, before it was conventional wisdom, said at the start of Jordan's freshman year that MJ was going to be a special player. I used to play basketball with a guy who was the same age as MJ and attended a high school basketball camp with Jordan, where he wasn't the most talented player there. MJ had to work hard to achieve what he did. That is hard for GMs to evaluate, to be fair.

[narciso]

Didn't he do enough damage to Van Halen;

http://twitchy.com/2014/01/27/why-sammy-hagar-shilling-for-obamacare-in-radio-ads-fans-adjusting-playlists/

by contrast, Scarlett Johansen, has been ticking off the right people, re Sodastream.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

"Scarlett Johansen, has been ticking off the right people, re Sodastream."

Have to admit some grudging admiration for her, though she's a moon at and partly doing it for the wrong reasons. But a lot of people would have caved, and so far she's stuck to her guns.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

moon at = moonbat /autocorrect

[Captain Hate]

Those dimwits are giving some unintentional good publicity for SodaStream

[Gus]

Sammy Hagar is an expert on what???

[Rob Crawford]

Those dimwits are giving some unintentional good publicity for SodaStream

I've damn near bought one out of spite.

[Gus]

it's 11 below. I hope Henry has lots of fire wood.

[DrJ]

Sammy Hagar is an expert on what???

Tequila, allegedly, though his product is not great.

[Gus]

Jimmy, I'd like to stick to Scarlett's guns.

[Gus]

Sammy Hagar tequila. He's a genius. He should have a chat with Gene Simmons about marketing.

[DrJ]

Cabo Wabo Tequila. Not bad, but overpriced for what it is.

[Ignatz]

Sammy Hagar makes my dog's skin crawl.

[Gus]

Sammy Hagar seems like a Good Time Charlie to me. He isn't that talented, but he's had some hits, and he's done well for himself. Once known as THE RED ROCKER, he played loud goofy guitar solo's and milked his "talent" to the hilt. The Van Halen thing was a blessing to Sammy, because Sammy has NEVER been able to hit the notes live. God bless him. Please NEVER take him seriously. He is not talented. He IS a performer.

[Danube on iPad]

Here's what disappoints me about the GOP plan, as briefly as I can state it.

I held out the hope that this would be an opportunity to uncouple health insurance from the tax code, once and for all. I suppose it was too much to hope for, and it I now guess it will never happen. But consider: if the GOP plan were enacted fully, who gets what breaks and who loses would forever be determined by how the political winds are blowingat the moment, and thereby influencing congressional decisions about deuctions, credits, exemptions and all the rest. Forever.

Market corrections based on consumer preferences get short shrift, in my view.

Just another of my hopeless causes down the drain.

At least one fine thing is certain to happen on Sunday: either the wonderful Peyton Manning will cement his place in history, or Pete Carroll will win a Super Bowl, thereby frustrating and infuriating the loathsome Jim Harbaugh.

[Beasts of England]

I haven't liked Hagar since the Montrose days. Talk about an underrated guitarist - Ronnie could bring it!

[Captain Hate]

Well argued, DoT; you've trumped Kristol imo.

[Gus]

Hey Beasts!! I'm glad you weighed in my friend!! Ronnie could rock, Hagar was always a little light on the chops, but had POP ROCK sensibilities coupled with a HARD ROCK ego. I don't mind Hagar as a person, but I don't rate him as a guitar player. Beasts, I appreciate guitar players of all stripes. I think Pete Townshend and Rick Nielsen have unique POP talents. Hagar is more HYPE than substance.

[Captain Hate]

Frankly the Hagar vs DLR arguments bored me.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

I agree with DoT @11:02. It still smacks of social engineering. Better engineering, but that's the wrong message when we're headed for the abyss.

[MarkO]

It's good to agree with DoT. And, I do.

[Gus]

Same here Capn'. Van Halen was a unique entity, because of Eddie VH and David Lee Roth. I know many people who think Alex Van Halen was/is an excellent drummer. POPPYCOCK. As for Michael Anthony........he and Sammy make great drinking buddies.

[Captain Hate]

Gus that was a time where I was listening to a lot more jazz than rock but Eddie's guitar playing would catch my attention from time to time.

[Gus]

Heck a couple of you were quicker to agree with Danube that me. DOT, I agree entirely with your 11:02.

[Captain Hate]

Gus were you a Little Feat fan?

[Gus]

Yes Capn' I've seen Little Feat and like them a lot.

[Ignatz]

Watched Hagar recently on Axs or some place and was reacquainted with what a talentless, foul-mouthed, albeit relatively good natured, slob he is.

BTW, Archer is often very funny.

[Dave (in MA)]

I've never spent a dime on Van Halen, but I'd have to guess that I've changed stations fewer times from the Hagar version.

[Beasts of England]

I had, frankly, forgotten that Hagar was even a guitarist, but the interwebs say that he was...

Captain: Enjoyed the Little Feat link last night!

[Gus]

Ignatz, don't hold back brother!! Tell us what you think!!

[Gus]

Dave, I'm a life long guitar player. I am a Pop Rock type guitar player on stage. I can play, but it's not virtuoso work that I'm seeking to share with the audience. I have NEVER cared for Van Halen. However, I have come to have an appreciation for the songs and the over the top guitar abilities FOR THE TIME, of EVH. David Lee Roth was a PARODY of a PARODY. But in retrospect, if you don't take them seriously, they were entertaining. Then EVH got hooked on Meth etc etc etc etc.

[Gus]

Beasts, I love you man!!! I do. You are awesome. And yes Sammy Hagar used to own a guitar.

[Captain Hate]

Gus, until I discovered Richard Thompson, I think I saw Little Feat more than any other rock group live. The last time I saw them was the tour before Lowell George died; topically enough it was my first out of the house social activity after the concussion mentioned earlier in the thread.

[DrJ]

DoT,

While I agree that the tax code should be decoupled from every economic decision as much as is possible, how do you propose to get health insurance out of it?

The only way that I can see to do that is to disallow the tax deduction from an employer's health insurance expenses. I would drop health insurance tomorrow, as I might have to pay taxes in spite of showing a NOL.

I think many or most employers would do the same: drop the insurance and pay the employee the amount paid for health insurance. Let the employees decide what they want to do on health insurance.

If that's not the plan, what is it?

[Dave (in MA)]

The first time I saw Roth I thought Jim Dandy Mangrum just had his stage act stolen.

If you're familiar with who he is, do yourself a favor and don't look up recent videos.

[Gus]

Beasts. What is your opinion of Keith Moon vs Neil Peart or Stewart Copeland or any other heralded Rock drummer!!

[Captain Hate]

Glad you liked it Beasts; I used to love how they'd segue from "Cold Cold Cold" to "Dixie Chicken" to "Tripe Face Boogie" in concert.

[Gus]

Capn, I've seen Little Feat a half dozen times. I've seen Cheap Trick 67 times. I've seen virtually every band that I COULD HAVE seen, including seeing THE CLASH in their heyday. My favorite concert of all time was Paul McCartney at Milwaukee County Stadium. I'm sorry to say that Paul McCartney being a BIG TIME LIBTARD has actually soured me on him.

[Captain Hate]

Dear God Black Oak Arkansas was terrible. I would've sworn Mangrum would be dead by now by extremely unnatural causes.

[Dave (in MA)]

Can't say I disagree, CH.

[Gus]

Dave, I know who Jim Dandy Mangrum is, and I wouldn't disagree with you at all. David Lee Roth had "enough" talent, both singing, front man and "PRANCABILITY" to make Van Halen very very wealthy. Alice Cooper was a trail blazer of a different sort, but all of Rock n Roll is the logical progression of CAPITALISM and the lust for fame.

[Captain Hate]

Was that a Wings concert, Gus? I saw U2 in a small club; didn't like 'em much. Can't understand any of the praise of the Edge's guitar playing.

[Dave (in MA)]

Little Feat's founding bass player.

http://www.nme.com/news/frank-zappa/62252

It's kind of sucked a lot of the enjoyment out of a bunch of albums for me.

[Captain Hate]

The Coop knew how to start an LP with very rocking songs: "Caught in a Dream" and "Under My Wheels" to name two. Plus he's a relative conservative.

[Beasts of England]

Thanks, Gus! You too, sir!

Peart played eight notes when silence would suffice. Bonham was the best. And now that I'm on YouTube watching Montrose with Edgar Winter, I have to say that Chuck Ruff was a fantastic drummer.

Never cared for The Who. Watts is a great drummer for keeping it in the pocket - nothing fancy, but classy. Steve Gadd is the shit. I can listen to his lessons on the internet.

[Gus]

Southern Fried boogie!!
Black Oak,
Lynyrd Skynyrd,
Then Skynyrds little brothers, Molly Hatchet, then 38 Special, IT EVOLVES. The Black Crowes.

[Gus]

Wow Beasts!! I've never been a HUGE Stones fan, but I watched a 91 Stones concert last night, and Charlie could bring it. Simple but to the point. I agree Peart was playing 8 notes, when 1 or 2 would suffice. Bun E Carlos, Ringo Starr, and Dennis Dyken ROCK. Look up Dennis Dyken if you don't know him.

[Captain Hate]

I wonder if Estrada being a perv was why he just disappeared from Little Feat when they expanded the band after "Sailing Shoes".

[Ignatz]

Gus, I'm pretty much a 2 minute 30 second and out rock and roll kind of guy so if it aint Breathess, High School Confidential-Jerry Lee Lewis, Mystery-Train Elvis, Anarchy in the UK-Sex Pistols, Sheena is a Punk Rocker-Ramones style stuff I kind of lose interest to put it mildly.

The Van Halen/Sammy Hagar wing of rock is kind of an emetic for me.

[Beasts of England]

As you may know, I grew up in the South and Southern Rock was a wonderful thing. I have so many Allman Brothers and Skynyrd ticket stubs (ranging in price from $3.50 to $6.00) that it fills a photo album.

Ringo was a better drummer than he gets credit for, in my opinion. Heck, George Martin brags on his abilities. An argument to authority, but it's a good authority.

[Gus]

Ignatz, that is EXACTLY what I love to play. I love the Sex Pistols, the Clash, the Jam, the Beatles, The Smithereens, the Kinks, Cheap Trick, the Hollies, even crap like Huey Lewis.
The Ramones were awesome, and I saw them from 2 foot away. I saw the Clash in their prime in Chicago at the Aragon Ball room with The Undertones and Bo Diddley. I saw The Sex Pistols and met Paul Cook their drummer by accident. I predicted the opening song with my pals and won 50 bucks. BODIES.

[Ignatz]

I always thought Clem Burke was a vastly underappreciated drummer.
Clean and tight and perfectly integrated into whatever the tune is.

[Captain Hate]

Here you go, Beasts: My favorite drummer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvSDlTNw6Ug

I actually helped bring one of his groups to a local club and email him every now and then. Great guy.

[Captain Hate]

Gus, did you like the Buzzcocks? Did you ever see Television or any of Verlaine's subsequent groups?

[Dave (in MA)]

I had a hunch it was going to be one of those Okkadisk type guys before I clicked.

[Beasts of England]

Not a U2 fan, either. Saw them in LA when I was out there on business in the mid-eighties. The BoDeans opened up, then The Pretenders played, and finally U2.

The BoDeans were fantastic, The Pretenders were almost as good, and I left about five songs into U2's set. I simply can't understand their incredible success.

[Gus]

I love the Buzzcocks, AND.......CLEM BURKE is a DAMN GOOD DRUMMER!!! He played with the ROMANTICS for a few years too. He is quite awesome despite his HAIR!!! HA!! He was essential to Blondie. But he was very good in the Romantics. The Romantics now have Brad Elvis from the Elvis Brothers.

[Dave (in MA)]

U2 might be a pretty good band if they got themselves a singer that I could stomach.

[jimmyk]

The only way that I can see to do that is to disallow the tax deduction from an employer's health insurance expenses. I would drop health insurance tomorrow, as I might have to pay taxes in spite of showing a NOL.

Or, as I think DoT was suggesting, provide the same deduction for individuals who buy their own insurance. Granted that is not getting the tax code entirely "decoupled from every economic decision," but it removes one gross distortion.

I wouldn't object to your proposal (not that you are necessarily proposing it), so long as the huge tax increase were offset by an across the board cut in tax rates. If employers then dropped coverage, so be it. I think the market can solve that problem provided the government keeps its paws out of it. But this already presumes the demise of Obamacare.

[Gus]

Captain, do you know THE JAM. Paul Weller's band?? They were British Pop Rock big time.

[Gus]

BEASTS!!!! I grew up with the BoDeans. Or DA BODEANS as they were known then. Kurt from the Bodeans was a friend of mine for years. They are from Waukesha Wisconsin. Kurt Newman and Sammy Llanas, I know both of them.

[Ignatz]

--Ringo was a better drummer than he gets credit for, in my opinion.--

I agree, Beasts. Ginger Baker might be impressive but rock aint Gene Krupa big band jazz; at least it shouldn't be IMO.

To me he best rock tunes are short, integrated little gems and Ringo did his small job tidily and well.

Give me Bad Boy, Little Deuce Coup or Can't You See That She's Mine over those gawdawful guitar heroes/drum monsters schlock operas any day.
And I readily admit that Dave Clarke did go a smidge overboard once in a awhile, but even then it was to drive the song not spread his peacock plumes.

[Beasts of England]

Never heard of him until your link, Captain, but he's legit!

[Captain Hate]

You know me well from JC, Dave.

[Gus]

I love SOME of the Pretenders stuff. Mostly the early guitar work on a Tele. I begrudgingly give Chrissie Hynde some credit for her talent, but she makes my skin crawl.

[Captain Hate]

Gus, I'm sure I know some songs by The Jam without knowing it's them.

Beasts, to say that I listen to sub-niche stuff is putting it mildly.

[Beasts of England]

Saw Krupa in town many years ago, Ig. First class player.

[Dave (in MA)]

Ig, I'm guessing a venn diagram of your CD collection and mine might resemble Dolly Parton.

[Ignatz]

I only own one U2 song; "One", primarily because of one line;
"Did you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head".
Always thought that was a nice turn of phrase.
Sunday Bloody Sunday is OK, otherwise, snoozefest.

[Beasts of England]

Dang, Gus - you know more rock and rollers than I do! And I grew up an hour from Muscle Shoals!

Love the Smithereens and the Buzzcocks.

[Gus]

More good stuff Ignatz. Dave Clark Five was WAY WAY WAY under rated. They've NEVER released their stuff on CD for CASH!!! Did you know that?? The Dave Clark 5 had many hits.

[Gus]

Dave, Dolly Parton came into my business about 4 or 5 years ago at this time of year. I'm in Wisconsin, and she was dressed appropriately for the weather. It was fun, and funny.

[Danube on iPad]

DrJ, that's exactly what I would like to see.

Eliminate the corporations' deduction for the expenses of their employees' health insurance. Instead, allow market forces to increase those employees' wages by roughly the amount of the employers' health insurance costs, and let the employees use those increased wages as they see fit.

I see no reason at all to allow health insurance premiums to be deductible from anyone's tax bill. But if there must be such a deduction, let it be available equally to all who purchase it.

Remember, this whole crazed and distorted system was not brought about by market forces exerted by freely acting consumers. It was brought about by the federal government instituting wage and price controls, and then trying to tweak what they had done by fiddling with the tax code.

How have these clowns done so far?

[Gus]

Beasts, I am friends with the Smithereens Guitar player Jimmy Babjak. He got me back stage passes to Tom Petty/Smithereens last summer.

[Captain Hate]

Make my day and tell me everybody hates Pearl Jam.

[Beasts of England]

That's awesome, Gus!!

[Ignatz]

-I begrudgingly give Chrissie Hynde some credit for her talent, but she makes my skin crawl.--

The Pretenders; great, hook laden melodies, superb musicians, Hynde's vocals are effective if sometimes irritating, but the lyrics, mostly hers I believe, are disastrously stupid;
"Like a pigeon from hell"?
Holy Moses.

[Gus]

Thanks Beasts. Are you familiar with THE BEAT or PAUL COLLINS BEAT?? One HUGE Pop album.
Ig. "I can't get from the CAB to the CURB without some little jerk on my back" DRECK.

[Beasts of England]

Too many great tunes, and too many good times associated with those songs. Sorry, Captain. Still a big fan of Eddie and the boys...

[Ignatz]

LOL, Dave.

BTW I read something I agreed with quite strongly the other day somewhere;
Chrissy Hynde had the career Johnette Napolitano of Concrete Blonde should have had.
Really great, powerful, underappreciated voice.

[Beasts of England]

Not at all familiar with either, Gus. Hitting YouTube now.

[Gus]

Pearl Jam?? Yes, quite over the top self indulgent Seattle stuff??
Jeromy Spoke in class today???
Can't find a "better Man"????

They are really deep.

[narciso]

the problem is this plan, does seem to operate under those precepts Avik Roy put forward some weeks ago, and the whole thing reminds me of the alternatives to the Ferrand bill, that Reagan opposed, which were deemed illegitimate and hence requiring Medicare as an answer,

Of course, we discover that Macklemore, apparently were 9/11 denialists, which type I'm not sure abour,

[Dave (in MA)]

I don't mind Pearl Jam but I don't try to decipher the mumbling. THe only thing I have by them is the Neil Young album they backed him on.

Captain, my other guesses would have included Tom Rainey and Hamid Drake.

[Captain Hate]

I used to work with a strange stoner from North Canton who had some hilarious Chrissy Hynde stories regarding her dealings with some of the local studhorses. She might have moved to the UK to get away from them.

[Captain Hate]

Those are two very good guesses, Dave; particularly the latter who, prior to seeing PNL, was my favorite drummer. Incredible economy of motion like Max Roach.

[Dave (in MA)]

Hey, I live in North Canton, well north Canton anyway.

[Beasts of England]

Gotta feel sorry for the regular crew who start reading these threads in the morning and run into the weekly JOM Rock Review. ;)

[Captain Hate]

My strange stoner co-worker used to make a point of specifying he was from North Canton rather than Canton itself, which is more like an overgrown small town than a city. The pro football HOF was built there when Rozelle was commissioner, which was a far cry from what the current empty suit would've done.

[Captain Hate]

Good night all.

[narciso]

This who Iowahawk was musing about earlier;

http://selvedgeyard.com/2013/08/28/frances-fairest-export-francoise-hardy-immortal-beloved-style-music-muse/

[Ignatz]

Missed your 12:04 Cap.
Pearl Jam = one of my very favorite hates.
Deplorable bunch of matted hair goons who would have served society much more noblely on the end of a broom or shovel somewhere.

[Dave (in MA)]

We just have the HQs for Dunkin Donuts and Reebok as our claims to fame.

[Dave (in MA)]

& the Sex Pistols would otherwise be captains of industry?

[narciso]

And he was making a pointed contrast with Madge;

[Ignatz]

--Eliminate the corporations' deduction for the expenses of their employees' health insurance. Instead, allow market forces to increase those employees' wages by roughly the amount of the employers' health insurance costs, and let the employees use those increased wages as they see fit.--

Why is an idea this basic and simple and obvious and sensible so foreign and impossible to contemplate by the supposed party of limited government in DC?
That it is foreign is cause for considerable gloom if not outright DOOM.

And good night, all.