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March 21, 2014


Danube on iPad

"It is a waste of an investigator's time to present his investigation" to a court of appeal.

Captain Hate

Somebody stirs up the Cult of Broooooce from the angry comments:


Centralcal on iPad

I'm with Rick Ballard 100%.

Miss Marple

I am also with Rick Ballard, for reasons explained upthread.


Count me with Rick too.

Stephanie wherefore art thou springtime

I'm with Rick (and Michael Mann)

Captain Hate

I'm with Rick too; this scummy administration has illustrated the problems with complacent trust.

Miss Marple

My husband, currently working in a foreign country, called to tell me everything on Sky News is about the plane.

He also told me that he has been watching "Ancient Aliens" on-line from the History Channel, and said for a while he got to thinking maybe THAT was the cause.

I told him CNN was right there with him. LOL!


sbw, IMO, John Bolton is the best we have on foreign policy at this time.

IMO, by the end of the Obama era we will not be a member of any international community. The Obama regime will have driven every ally we ever had away. Who ever takes over will have to start anew building any relationships.

DNA-- I stand with Rick Ballard 110 %.

Counting turn away at the border as a deportation is insane, IMO.

Danube on iPad

Guess I'm a bit outnumbered. So much for my persuasive powers.

Danube on iPad

Hands across the sea:


Miss Marple

pagar, I was talking about foreign policy with my sister this morning.

How long did it take us to rebuild trust after we abandoned our ally at the end of the Vietnam War? I would say until the end of the Reagan years, which Bush senior took advantage of to build the coalition in the Gulf War.

Obama has, through failure to stand for allies, through reneging on agreements, for kowtowing to allies, and other nefarious acts probably still unknown, has again driven us back to the standing we had in the 70's, if not worse.

This is because the Left ALWAYS uses foreign policy and national security as a cudgel to grab control. From the anti-war demonstrations of the late 60's to the undermining of the Iraq War by people like Harry Reid and Barack Obama, they always, ALWAYS take the position that WE are the villains, it's all our fault, and if only we would give up (choose country, weapon system, persecuted minority, whatever) things would be A-OK.

Of course the world doesn't work like that and neither do their leaders, so we end up with alienated allies and adversaries who hold us in contempt.

Miss Marple

Ack! My above post should have read "kowtowing to enemies."


For Janet, Walter if he's lurking and whoever else cheers for Virginia Tech, the Hokies picked up a good basketball coach in Buzz Williams from Marquette. Excellent snag imo.

VaTech fan for 35 years. Younger brother was the VT starting QB from 78-81. Excited by the Williams hire. 3 years in a row of last place in the conference pitiful!


But the 4th Amendment rests on reasonableness. I believe that the societal benefits of comprehensive DNA data far outweigh the potential societal harms.

Ah, DoT? Collecting DNA would appear to be more “reasonable” after a felony conviction than before.

I don’t mind reasonable, but we have to be reasonable about reasonable. . . . Besides, evidence suggests its reasonable authorities will overreach.

Rick Ballard gets my support.

Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet

Here's another vote for Rick's views on DNA. The Constitution was designed to protect us from rogue regimes like the current administration and its bureaucratic minions. Giving even the good guys unfettered ability to collect data like DNA without some checks, balances, or safeguards (and an arrest is neither a check, a balance, nor a safeguard to me) allows the bad guys to misuse these powerful tools against us at their whim.

To me, this is a case where the slippery slope arguments has validity.


"ask someone whose DNA has been taken how violated he feels."

And then what? Is the warrantless search invalid if that someone feels violated? We can equip the police with mood rings to umpire the distress.


We can equip the police with mood rings to umpire the distress.

Fweet! Sarcasm violation! I feel violated. Go back ten yards remorsefully.

Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet

Regarding foreign policy, one of the major tenets of the "left" is the One World fallacy. To leftys, tribalism is to be encouraged at he national level, but nationalism is anathema at the international level.

All of the Obama foreign policy establishment (and much of the bureaucracy of the State Department) is wedded to the One World philosophy best articulated by that noted international philosopher Rodney "can't we just get along" King.

Danube on iPad

Come on, MarkO. I suggested those two questions simply as a rhetorical device to illustrate the objective fact that having one's home raided is very substantially more traumatic and invasive than giving a saliva swab.

"Collecting DNA would appear to be more 'reasonable' after a felony conviction than before." Undoubtedly.

Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet

I noticed that not one of the photos of our dear FLOTUS in the British Press showed her bowing to any of the Chinese leadership. This leads me to believe that what I thought was a silly youtube "proof" that Mooshell was a man may have had some truth to it. She exhibits far more testicular fortitude towards heads of state than her ineffectual husband.


Jim-so is their ed policy. In fact I have been working all morning on new assessments designed to make sure all high school graduates have the requisite levels of empathy and desired attitudes on Global Citizenship.

It was pretty well hidden but once I started pulling on the thread out came Rockefeller funding, CCSSO sponsorship, and the Palo Alto higher ed institution's involvement.

I was just taking out my frustration on what I found by mopping the kitchen floor. It looks better and I feel slightly better.

Also been reading about planned assessments using programmed to simulate humans avatars that are designed to measure students' willingness to collaborate and develop 'shared understandings."

The bright maverick who understands uniquely and will buck the herd as a result truly is a major target.

Miss Marple




"Collecting DNA would appear to be more 'reasonable' after a felony conviction than before." Undoubtedly.

But, that is not what is being proposed, it it? Only the charge of committing a felony, of which you might be innocent of.

As we know that prosecutors do not abuse their power and will not charge you with limited or bogus evidence.

How long will it be, before someone has to spend thousands, if not millions defending themselves from a charge derived from false DNA evidence?

DNA's aura of unmistakenless is too powerful but its limitations are often ignored. DNA can be transferred by many methods which could lead to conclude an erroneous set of facts.

We are all human, not infallible, the prospects of such database to misuse is a lot greater than with fingerprints. I am with Rick Ballard on this.

Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet


How do these educrats deal with would be professionals who must do their own work? Music soloists, composers, artists, sculptors, authors, essayists, inventors to name a few. Most of those succeeding in these areas are not collaborative by nature.

I suspect Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Picasso, Rembrandt, Shakespeare, Rodin, Edison, Michelangelo, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Horowitz, et al would not have fared well in the "willingness to collaborate and develop 'shared understandings'."

Danube on iPad

A very interesting read. Hinderaker on rank corruption at the Washington Post:




I have made my living by questioning "shared understandings." It is amazing how much of conventional scientific practice (at least in Proteomics/Modern Biology) leaves room for substantial improvement. And when you ask why this or that is done, invariably the answer comes back: "This is how we always have done it."


I've been following that Hinderaker thing all morning. He blows that Wapo garbage up real good. The comments at think progress are pretty funny.

Danube on iPad

"How long will it be, before someone has to spend thousands, if not millions defending themselves from a charge derived from false DNA evidence?"

I don't know, but DNA has been used as a forensic tool since 1986 and I can't think of a single instance where that has occurred.


The saliva swab is not particularly invasive but what is done with the results can be just as invasive or more so than a search warrant.
Consequently why not put them under the same umbrella? If the cops want a DNA sample they prove to a judge they have probable cause and the reasonableness of their request and get a warrant.

jimmyk on iPad

"Jimmyk, ask someone whose DNA has been taken how violated he feels. Then ask someone whose house has been subjected to a warrantless search."

Probably the latter would feel more violated. Does that negate the concerns about the former? Just because something else is worse is not an argument for a DNA database. Even if the concerns seem remote now, a permanent database could be abused in ways we can't even imagine right now.


Jeebus DoT, a warning that there was an NSFH [not safe for humans] picture of one Juliet Eelperin projecting her hideousness full force in that Powerline link would have been appreciated.
Talk about invasive.

jimmyk on iPad

Ack, I had a post that disappeared that said more or less what Iggy said at 2:09 about getting a warrant. Maybe the typepad gurus are just deleting redundant postings.

And thanks for the warning about Eilperin. She seems to have a permanent "Don't you know who I am?" sneer on her face.


And when you ask why this or that is done, invariably the answer comes back: "This is how we always have done it.

DrJ, I banned that phrase at work in the 1970s because people had been taught to "Put the pink copy in the bottom drawer" and didn’t understand why.”



Even though I know Bezos is a lefty he was fairly quiet about it previously so I didn't mind too much shopping at Amazon.
If he doesn't clean up the mess he bought I'll be looking for alternatives, especially since he did his crony thing and now charges sales tax on top of printing bilge water.

Eric in Boise

I'm also in Rick B's camp, and I'm adding his 11:25 to my "Stuff I Wish I Was Smart Enough to Write" list. It's a pretty long list.

Ten years ago I might have shrugged my shoulders and said "Hey, if you're not doing anything, you have nothing to worry about." Lois Lerner and the rest of these fascist b**tards have sent that line of reasoning out the window for me.


What's the big seal with lithium batteries?


The problem with them is that they can ignite, and once they do it is impossible to put them out. Bad enough if it's just one set of batteries in something like your standard laptop, but if you're hauling a pallet load of the things in a cargo hold, one defective one that ignites generates enough heat that it ignites the others and the fire is essentially uncontrollable. That's why the first question out of everybody's mouth was were there any Lithium Battery pallets in the Cargo hold? The answer they gave us until yesterday, was "No, Only 4 pallets of local fruit--mangosteens". Now we find out they were lying all along.

We askd that question because in 2011 a UPS 747 in 2011 crashed as a result of a fire generated by a load of Lithium batteries.

The crew in Dubai reported the fire about 22 minutes into the flight. They tried to turn back to the airport to land, but smoke obscured their view outside and of the instruments. The captain’s oxygen supply also stopped working at some point. The 747 flew past the airport and crashed minutes later.

As a result of that crash, the FAA banned transportation of Lithium Batteries from US Passenger Carriers. They gave us Cargo guys special training, and we have tried to devise better fire resistant containers for our planes, but as of 2011: The FAA says currently there is “no container available that would be able to withstand the known effects of lithium battery fires and it therefore prohibits their being shipped as bulk cargo shipments on passenger-carrying aircraft.

Watch the first few minutes of this video on Lithium Battery Fires. It's an eye opener on how ferocious a single laptops battery pack can be: Lithium Batteries Spark Fire, Explosion, and Bring Down UPS 747

It is the video they made us watch in Safety Training recently, and what surprised me the most was that you are not supposed to use ice to try to cool off the runaway battery pack as that exacerbates the problem. I would have thought that sticking a runaway lithium battery computer on fire into our cooler full of ice and cold water would be the right thing to do. Apparently not.

This video is scary in that it is just one Lithium Battery pack on fire, so you multiply that by a pallet full of the things and you can easily see the danger.

Malaysia is where Dell computers does a lot of their manufacturing and I believe also ACER computers. Computer stuff was primarily what we were carrying out of Malaysia for years. Malaysian passenger airlines have no restrictions on carrying Lithium Batteries on their passenger planes. If they don't change that policy immediately they should all be hung from the neck until dead.

Miss Marple

daddy, Is there a list of airline carriers that still carry lithium batteries?

It seems to me that is essential knowledge for potential passengers.

Jim Eagle

Lord love a duck, reading that Powerline post and scrolling down to Eilperin's photo I was confused since a few days ago we were talking about transvestites and I thought Hindrecker was heading that way:)

I understand DoT's argument but its wasted on me since I think Rick B nailed it. It is non-operative considering this regime. No rights are safe under Obama/Holder - zip, zero, nil. zilch.


Those . . ., those lips.

Reminds me of a line I think from Roger Rabbit about one of the cartoon characters -- When you get kissed by those lips, you stay kissed.

I probably mis-recall.


Miss Marple,

I will try to find that info. All I know is that the FAA put out a directive to US Passenger carriers so I have no knowledge about the rest of the world.

I've mentioned this following story before which I think is worth keeping in mind for how that part of the world works.

We are not allowed by Directive to carry any cargo outbound from China that appears on a long list as "Hazardous Cargo." We can carry something that originated in someplace like Japan, sat for a couple hours on the plane in China, then continue on to lets say Korea---that's okay, but any Hazardous Cargo originating from China is prohibited.

About 10 years back doing the pre-flight walk around inspection in China, we spotted some barrel containers on the ramp that were leaking, and they were just about to be on-loaded. Quizzing them, we found out that they contained Hazardous Chemicals, per the Hazardous Cargo list.

We asked why they weren't listed as "Hazardous Cargo", and the answer was, "If we listed them as "Hazardous Cargo", we knew you wouldn't take 'em."

Welcome to China.

Gotta' go buy dog food. Later.


Question to JOM Legal.

Can the Koch Brother's sue The Washington Post for this latest known lie, and have any expectation of winning?

I notice that the story is front and center on our ADN, and I expect it is front and center in every McClatchy paper in the country?


I know, DoT that the two are not comparable. And, I realize that the weight of the intrusion and the concomitant feeling of violation are used to assess the reasonableness of the search. Scalia, J., talked about the curtilage when comparing this intrusion with a house search. I refer you to him.

Yet, the majority’s arguments about “identification” are misleading and untethered from the facts. In actuality, the DNA is gathered to search (nice word) for possible other crimes. There’s the 4th Amendment rub, if there is any privacy left after the NSA.

When I’m rounded up for the next felony arrests, my DNA will be swabbed by a rubber-gloved homunculus working out his dark fantasies and I will feel violated—just as I do when the TSA boys feel me up because of my metal parts.

I do not like it. The balance has shifted dramatically away from personal privacy and toward the safety, security, certainty, and oppression of the quasi-police state. IRS, NSA, HLS, CIA, to name a few. I have not and do not now trust any government group. I know too much about them.

I know I have lost this fight. I’m in dissent. Losing, like Duke.


It must have taken 30 seconds on Google to find people wrongly accused because of false DNA.



I don't like this, either:


The U.S. Department of Justice's Deputy Solicitor General elaborated at the outset of his presentation:

MR. DREEBEN: Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court: Arrestees are in a unique category, they are on the gateway into the criminal justice system. They are no longer like free citizens who are wandering around on the streets retaining full impact Fourth Amendment rights. The arrest itself substantially reduces the individual's expectation of privacy. The arrestee can be searched and sent to arrest. His property, whether or not connected with a crime, can be inventoried. When he's taken into the jail situation, he can be subjected to a visual strip search. If he's admitted to the population of the jail, he'll be given a TB test and a thorough medical screen. These are not individuals who are like free citizens, and they are not like free citizens in another significant respect. Arrestees are rarely arrested for the first time. They tend to be repeat customers in the criminal justice system. Up to 70 percent of arrestees have been previously arrested.

The trouble with this argument should be obvious. Of course, arrestees have been arrested and may be searched in ways inapplicable (thankfully) to people who not currently in police custody. But the fact that "they are not like free citizens" does not necessarily mean that the justifications for taking their DNA are not just as powerful when applied to the general population. One must go beyond diffuse talk of surrendering "a substantial amount of liberty and privacy" to adequately distinguish this group from the general population for the purpose of DNA identification testing. The argument that arrestees are different just because they have been arrested (and are likely to be re-arrested) is empty.

Danube of Thought

The saliva swab is not particularly invasive but what is done with the results can be just as invasive or more so than a search warrant.

No doubt it's possible, but I can't think of a single instance of its having been done, even after five years of this administration.

Consequently why not put them under the same umbrella?

That seems to be the overwhelming sentiment here, and I don't have a strenuous problem with it. I am aware of many, many instances of a killer's DNA being found at a crime scene, but the killer can't be identified because his DNA is not on file. But I guess that's a cost we must accept.

Hell, Mark O, you're winning, and winning hands down, in this tribunal.

Danube of Thought

I would note that, although I have absorbed a savage drubbing here, my view prevailed in the real Court. I was joined by Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Breyer. But I hate being opposed to Scalia.

Article here.


DoT, you won; I'm swabbed.

Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet

Of course, for the past 50 years, arrestees are required to be Mirandized if their statements after arrest are to be used against them. The first part of the Miranda warning states that the arrestee has the right to remain silent.

ISTM, arrestees should be equally protected from giving evidence that might be used against them for the rest of their lives. No DNA until being advised of the right to withhold consent.

Taking DNA without consent causes an arrestee potentially give the government incriminating evidence against himself.

I think Justice Black had it right in 1951 in Rochin v. California which held use of medically induced vomitus against an accused who swallowed heroin was unconstitutional:

Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46, 68 -123, sets out reasons for my belief that state as well as federal courts and law enforcement officers must obey the Fifth Amendment's command that "No person . . . shall be compelled [342 U.S. 165, 175] in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."


Civil liberties are not just to prevent the government from doing things again that it's already done, but to prevent it doing things that are possible but haven't been done yet. There are no doubt all sorts of uses in Barrycare for DNA samples, especially as the info extracted from them increases with technological innovation.

Barry and his clowns are the last war. The next crook will be worse and represents the next war we should be fighting now.

Danube on iPad

"Taking DNA without consent causes an arrestee potentially give the government incriminating evidence against himself."

So does fingerprinting.

Note that under the Maryland law in question the DNA could not be entered into the database until after arraignment, and had to be removed from it if the defendant was not convicted. Fingerprints, however, remain on record forever, regardless of guilt or innocence.


I agree that the Feds have crossed the Rubicon. They do not get the benefit of the doubt. They have far too much power.


Interesting discussion of the privacy implications of DNA samples and how much info they do and don't contain at the site MarkO linked earlier.

miss Marple

Ignatz, that is a very good point.

We need to realize that Obama is only the figurehead of a movement full of people like Samantha Power, Bill Ayres, and Reverend Wright. ( I am sure you all can add to the list; I just chose 3.)

We do not know what yet-undiscovered markers are in DNA.

A tendency towards independent thought?
A predisposition for religious faith?
A gene for obesity?
An addictive personality gene?

Under the current healthcare system the last 2 could be used to force abortions.

The first 2, in a system under control of someone like Bill Ayres, might cause incarceration in death camps, " for the greater good."

The Jews of Weimar Germany thought they were good Germans, valuable citizens, and no one had ever rounded people up and put them in camps, and no one had ever considered someone who was 1/4 Jewish to be a true Jew.

They were wrong. I think we shouldn't make the same mistake.


“Our First Lady is so graceful and elegant, leaving Michelle far behind,” said one critic. “We have won this time,” remarked another. “Ours is more refined and eye-catching,” said a third.

There was praise for Mrs Peng’s belted trouser suit, with flashes of crimson at her neckline to match her red earrings and clutch, but some questioned whether her high heels were sensible enough for the cobbles of the Forbidden City. But without them, Mrs Obama would have towered over her.

Mrs Obama won plaudits, however, for gamely embracing three of China ’s favourite hobbies: ping pong, calligraphy and geeky robot-building.

Who knew that Michelle was into "geeky robot-building" ?


Captain Hate

MarkO, as you can well imagine, there's been a lot of online highfiving on the Maryland 247 bbs, but there's also been some reasonable discussion of Duke and K, this by a transplanted Hole:

He's gotten very studdorn as his legacy got bigger. I really think Collins leaving hurt them a good bit. He was a techincal guy and not afraid to challenge K's thinking. Wojo and Capel are yes men all day long, so it ends up being a ton of groupthink based on whatever K is leaning towards. The 4 out hawking threes and one high screener offense isn't going to work for them going forward, and it's de-railed 2 or three seasons where they had no business exiting before the Final Four. It continues to amaze me how reluctant K is to prioritize a post game (they've had some damn good post players in the last few years, and Parker was unstoppable down low this year).

Re DoT's point: As a 'repeat customer'*, I was fingerprinted twice before I turned 18. My fingerprints are in the FBI database due to service academy applications, bar admissions, and regulated bank background checks.


What do you think of Texas for molecular biology?

*Four arrests, two bookings: Curfew, minor possession of beer, and two speeding tickets. In Mo, when charged as ordinance violations, all were civil, rather than criminal violations. To be fair, both bookings were related to BoE-style speeding violations.

The older me is pleased that the younger me was scared straight before I hurt anyone.



I don't know anything in particular about molecular biology at Texas -- there I know Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, primarily -- but as the flagship school in Texas I have to believe it is quite good. Most of the lead state schools are.


Can the Koch Brother's sue The Washington Post for this latest known lie

I'll leave it up to the JOM legal beagles for the "official" answer, but the newspaper answer is that the Koch brothers can ask for a correction. If it is given, that would likely be the end of it.

If the WP did not issue a correction, then the Koch brothers could sue because while their name may be known, they really are not public figures.

Finally, the questions turn on knowingly misrepresenting facts and intention to defame.

I doubt either side wants to roll the dice on a law suit. If I were a Koch brother, I would ask for a correction.

Danube on iPad

"Under the current healthcare system the last 2 could be used to force abortions.

"The first 2, in a system under control of someone like Bill Ayres, might cause incarceration in death camps, 'for the greater good.'"

MissM, I have very serious doubts that any of those markers can or will be discovered, but perhaps they may some day be discoverable in our brain waves. And I don't believe that current law could force abortions.

In any event, should a Bill Ayres ever come to power our DNA markers will be the least of our worries.


--Who knew that Michelle was into "geeky robot-building" ?--

Why do you think Barry's BC was so hard to dig up?


Thanks DrJ. My niece is starting a PhD program there this fall.

sbw, if I were a Koch brother, I'd hand it to my pr person and enjoy my weekend. Then again, obsessive focus is how one gets to be a Koch-level captain of industry, so...


Walter, best wishes for you niece's success! She does know that there's a glut of biologists of all flavors, doesn't she?


Walter, if I were a Koch brother, I'd pay off my children’s school loans. ;-)


Won't natural selection take care of that Doc?


You'd think so, Iggy, but you would be amazed at the rotten life of a lot of PhD biologists. Many take Post Docs until they are 40. Those positions typically pay less than a starting elementary school teacher.

miss Marple

Danube, I am not interested in current law.

I am trying to be one step ahead of the Marxists.

I understand your position. You apparently do not understand mine, because you keep saying you doubt such things would be used, or that they will ever be discovered, or that no one would do such a thing.

I have a very low opinion of human nature, particularly given our current experience.

I disagree with you, most profoundly.


should a Bill Ayres ever come to power our DNA markers will be the least of our worries.

Other than citizenship, where do Bill Ayers and Obama differ?


where do Bill Ayers and Obama differ?

It is not likely that a Bill Ayres would come to power by election. Even less that he would leave that way.



I think the combination of youth (remember 2010 had seniors as stars) and the NBA influence on K from the Olympics has made him a believer in the 3 point shot as a primary weapon. He certainly deserves deference, however the results have been decidedly mixed. No Duke team should go out in the first round, regardless of the opposition.


Ignatz, she's born-again, so it's not really an issue for her ;)

DrJ, she was a listed author on two published papers as an undergrad, so she has some experience with the grant process. Plus, free grad school!




This leads me to believe that what I thought was a silly youtube "proof" that Mooshell was a man may have had some truth to it. She exhibits far more testicular fortitude towards heads of state than her ineffectual husband.

Funny Jim, I just proved that in the next thread.


Walter, I did not mean to sound discouraging. The best always do well, and if your niece is a listed author on two papers -- as an undergrad -- she probably will be fine.

There still is the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the dearth of STEM students. With a few exceptions, that simply is not so. There are far more people with STEM backgrounds that people realize.

One issue is that there is a lot of age discrimination: It is thought that you need a young pup to be up on all the lasted techniques. That is way overstated, and a lot of senior people have to retire early or choose something outside of science.

On the other end, there are not enough jobs for recent graduates, particularly in the biological sciences. Molecular biology is better than the others in this area, but there still are more graduates than jobs. That's particularly so if one wishes to get a tenure-track faculty appointment.


No worries. She's not really interested in teaching or the academy as a profession (See 'born-again', supra). Both her dad and maternal grandad were entrepreneurs, and if she isn't offered what she wants, she'll go the startup route.

Did you ever want to be a tenured professor (other than times you're busy with mandatory paperwork, that is)?


Walter, I was offered a tenure-track faculty position but turned it down.


Below's a quickie article re the argument that bolsters the against DNA database:


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