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March 09, 2014



Here's the link;



From the Challanger:

Several large objects were tracked by radar after the shuttle disintegrated. One such object, classified as "Object D," hit the water 207 seconds after launch about 18 nautical miles east of launch pad 39B. This apparently was the crew cabin. "It left no trail and had a bright white appearance (black and white recording) until about T+175 seconds," an appendix to the Rogers Commission report said. "The image then showed flashes of both white and black until T+187 seconds, after which time it was consistently black. The physical extent of the object was estimated from the TV recording to be about 5 meters." This description is consistent with a slowly spinning crew module, which had black heat-shield tiles on its bottom with white tiles on its side and top.

The largest piece of crew cabin wreckage recovered was a huge chunk of the aft bulkhead containing the airlock hatch that led into the payload bay and one of the two flight deck windows that looked out over the cargo hold. The bulkhead wreckage measured 12 feet by 17 feet.



So do the people "disintegrate' too?


The A-3 survivor guy proves that they don't, tho' the aircraft around him obviously did and he was plummeting earthward just strapped into his seat. The other guys probably surprise in one piece until they hit the ocean and then I imagine nature just takes it's course and they eventually get consumed.


breaking the wall of the Cave;



surprise survived as complete bodies

miss Marple

I am sure glad I didn't learn all these details before I flew to Rome.

Captain Hate

narc, I appreciate your links to the Snyder pieces on Ukraine insights, although I make it a point to avoid the comments from the NYRB ilk.

I think it's time for MOAR NRBQ: http://ia600303.us.archive.org/23/items/nrbq_Q1/nrbq_Q1.mp3?cnt=0


Jane on Ipad

Oh gawd. I have no idea why am suddenly so interested. So if you were standing there you would have seen 229 people hit the water?

Eric in Boise

Daddy, not only are your posts always extremely informative, but I also find them very reassuring.

Why? Because if all commercial pilots have half of your knowledge and common sense, I feel more than confident leaving my safety in your hands every time I pack myself into one of those scary aluminum tubes. Knowing you, and others like you are in charge, makes it significantly less scary.

I'll bet I'm not the only JOMer that feels this way.

Captain Hate

Although I appreciate daddy's flying insight, I've never been leery about flying since a co-worker said to me when we boarded a flight on a work trip "being on a commercial flight is like being on a bus". For me that put it in the right context.

Beasts of England

Very enjoyable to hear about the Cotillion, hit! Glad no toes were injured in the process.

p.s. heh

miss Marple

Eric, I agree.

I had a phobia about flying when I was younger, I think because my mom's fear rubbed off on me.

I have pretty much overcome it, but sometimes there is a twinge when I hear about a crash like this. Hearing daddy's level-headed explanations helps quite a bit.

Account Deleted

I wonder how hard people in South Ossetia and Abkhazia would laugh after reading Snyder's "conclusion" as to Putin's options? A hard punch in the nose might give him pause but BOzo and the EUnuchs aren't exactly up to the task.

miss Marple

That long analysis of Putin was certainly done in conjunction with the White House.

They have been pushing the "Putin is crazy so what can you expect Obama to do" line for the last 4-5 days.

Notice how that article talked about reality and Putin making his own version.


Eric in Boise

Cap'n, yeah, it's just like being on a bus where the air outside is at minus seventy degrees F and is moving by at about five hundred knots.


I agree with daddy on people surviving intact. The plane breaks up because its structure is pretty weak once it's compromised and it's quite rigid so it breaks down into pieces that are of a size that can survive the stress they're under.
People are pretty much that size already and are quite plastic unless they're hit by debris or near a blast.

Jane on Ipad

Did they find bodies at Lockerbie?

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

Watched an excellent show on Lockerbie on the Smithsonian channel this pat week. There were bodies but mostly pieces. Eleven people never got Id'd and the unidentified parts that they couldn't confirm Id were eventually buried in a tomb together and assumed to be them. Several people on the ground were never found at all.


Thanks Eric,

Obviously I've got you guys hornswoggled:)


"Bus driving" pretty much describes it. I think if we could have you guys ride along in the cockpit for about 2 weeks or so, initially you'd be thinking, "Oh, it's amazing doing all that stuff, I could never do that," but after about a week you'd be thinking "That's it? That's all you guys do? It's really that easy and simple? I could do that---who couldn't.", and by end of the trip you'd be saying "Carp, I work a lot harder than those weasels. How do I get into that racket?"

Just for interest, my co-pilot this trip is 64 and 3/4'ers years old so is facing mandatory retiring in 2 months. He has been thru 4 different airlines and has tons of experience and I am having a ball picking his brains for experience and just listening to his many stories. An absolutely excellent guy that I'm sorry to see go, but he's a happy contented man and a great pleasure to work with.


--There were bodies but mostly pieces.--

I imagine that was largely impact with the ground. What impact with the water does I don't know.
While you'd initially be traveling at a few hundred miles an hour I imagine you very quickly slow down to terminal velocity for a falling object, about the same as jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge I would think.

Captain Hate

daddy, I'm sure your flying experiences in the service were amazingly intense and put you in great shape for doing what you're doing with a "this is easy" attitude.


Move over Gary Taubes, the NYT says obesity is caused by antibiotics. Eat your Snickers and Ho's Ho's with a clear conscience.

(A) nuther Bub

We had a friend who was a crew member on the Lockerbie flight. I still have trouble reading about it, Jane, but yes, they found intact bodies. If you recall the photos at the time, the cockpit and first class section survived the crash in one large piece.

"Your bones turn to jelly," is what my first husband said about dying in a plane crash. Of course I have no idea whether that's true or not because I had no further questions. He was a lifelong pilot though, Chief Pilot for his airline, and a consultant with NTSB, who went to investigate crash sites for a number of years.

You youngsters forget sometimes about how safe flying is today. From the 50s through the 80s I lost five friends in five different commercial flight accidents, another on United 93 (and my grandson's paternal grandfather was on that Aloha flight that landed "roofless"). In olden times you didn't think of it as riding a bus, although that's certainly true today.

Eric in Boise


If you're just bus driving, then why is "airline pilot" consistently rated one of the highest stress occupations? Do you have the survey guys hornswoggled too?

BTW, 'hornswoggled" is one of my favorite words, ranking right up there with 'gobsmacked' and 'defenestration".

miss Marple

I have an early morning vet appointment for my dog.

Night, all!


Almost a dead ringer for my first car right down to the color. Right click for whole thing;

Beasts of England

Flying was one of my favorite things to do before 9/11. I enjoyed the views from the sky and, of course, the excitement of traveling somewhere - even if I was on business and/or had been there before.

After 9/11, I had a hard time getting on board - literally. I had a flight planned on 9/16 to Houston, which I cancelled and took to the highway. Incidents like the recent crash - whether terrorism or not - really don't help my apprehension. And I understand the probabilities vis-a-vis automotive travel, but I'm also 100% certain that I'll never drop out of the sky from 30,000 feet in my Jag...

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

Probably, daddy, but that occasional few minutes of sheer panic due to winds, wind shear, missed approach or whatever would have most of us soiling ourselves. That's the wheat from the chaff moment that separates civvies from pilots.

Was in a 4 seater once during a boyfriend's flying lesson and when he set us down very roughly and almost sideways it was a very white knuckling experience. I was a seasoned small plane passenger as granddaddy had a Ronica Champion (IIRC) and we used to fly with him and he used to let us fly it once airborne.

Grandad used to cruise over to Cumberland island to fish for the day and land us on the beach. Once the tide got up and we returned to find the plane's wheels on the Oceanside in the tide That takeoff with the plane revved to max was not as bad as the sideways landing the boyfriend fuxed.

Captain Hate

Sweet ride, Iggy; was that a 383?

Jane on Ipad


I was negotiating a deal the day after Lockerbie and the guy on the other side Told me his boss's twin brothers were on the flight. I've never ever forgotten that. They were part of the Syracuse contingent.

(A) nuther Bub

Apologies to all. I just re-read what I wrote above and it's gruesome. Sorry.

Beasts of England

Damned nice ride, Ig! What year?


I always learn so much from daddy.

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

On a lighter note, the Paralympics hockey games on sleds are really inspiring and fun to watch.


1968 Beasts.
Yes CH, mine was a 383. Had Hooker headers, an Edelbrock manifold and a massive Holly 1150 double pumper. Made it about the equivalent of a 440 Magnum with probably even worse mileage.
Somehow I survived, as did it.


Latest News Briefing going on from the Malaysian guys in charge says that so far there is not bit of the aircraft that has been recovered. He is saying that the report of the aircrafts door having being spotted is unreliable. Same thing with earlier reports of debris looking like part of the tail is unreliable.

He's going thru the various reports of things found and so far is saying that nothing has been found that can be identified as having come from the airplane.

Also just for interest, in my time in Diego Garcia, there was a lot of plastic debris such as bottles and flip flops etc that used to wash up on shore and since thee was no population of any size on the island, that stuff had to come inbound via the ocean currents. We were basically 1,000 miles south of any other land (India) and 2,000 miles from Indonesia, so it would not surprise me at all for these guys to be finding lots of small floating debris in the search area having nothing to do with the Malaysian aircraft.

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

I haven't flown since 9/11 and don't plan to. Used to fly for business regularly and really enjoyed it. Now I figure drive time v security/check-in/flight/baggage claim and it doesn't seem worth it. Leaving Atlanta to Orlando for example I'd probably hit the Florida border before the plane took off if I left home for both situations at the same time.

I figure I'm on some watch list as tea party anyways. ;)

I've never purposefully had the tv off since 9/11 either. Safety blanket syndrome, I guess. I even sleep with it on.

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

ISTM there are more spectators at the Paralympics games venues so far than the regular games where lots of seats were empty. And there were stories that the volunteers and locals were being given tickets to the regular games to fill out the crowds.

MarkO on vacation

Why would anyone believe anything Obama or his flunkies say?


Good question from a reporter at the News conference:

Did the 2 guys with the stolen passports have Asian faces?

The Malaysian spokesman responds that he will not reveal that info as he does not want to jeopardize the ongoing investigation.

The Malaysian spokesman also says that there has been no claim of responsibility, but again qualifies it by saying that he doesn't want to jeopardize the ongoing investigations.

Also apparently they have re-examined all the screening of the bags that were loaded onto the aircraft and are saying that none of them had any substances identified by the Security screening equipment that was not supposed to be there. I suppose that means they may have recordings of all that stuff that is run thru the X-ray machines.

Eric in Boise

Ig's 11:55 makes me nostalgic for my high school ride:

..but unfortunately, mine was a wheezy old beater when I bought it in '75, and an even wheezier old beater when I sold it a few years later.

But damn I wish I had it now.


They were part of the Syracuse contingent.

There was a student who had been in one of my classes at U of Rochester on the Lockerbie flight. I think a few Rochester students had joined the Syracuse group.

they have re-examined all the screening of the bags that were loaded onto the aircraft and are saying that none of them had any substances identified by the Security screening equipment that was not supposed to be there

That doesn't rule out the "binary" possibility someone alluded to, that two guys could each have something that gets through screening (carry-on) that when combined can make a bomb.

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

Weren't there some planes in Africa that did a disappearing trick after 9/11 that caused some agitation for the security agencies? Don't remember if they were passenger or empty hauls, but ISTR some reportage about them. Did they ever figure those out?


From my experience if they do as the TSA does in the US only a small fraction of the bags would have been x-rayed. On most bags they do an Explosive trace test.

Both the Rapiscan and Securescan can save more that 50,000 images internally after that they are sent to a central storage.


Decent comment from the BBC talking head who I believe is a guy from the sub-continent.

He says that when the Reporter asked the question about did the 2 guys traveling with the Stolen Passports have "Asian Faces", to us in the West we think of Asian Faces as meaning looking like Chinese or Japanese, but that what the reporter meant was the local understanding that "Asian Faces" applies to folks who look like Pakistani's or Indian's etc.

So the reporter was asking a sensible question about were these guys what we US "racists" might consider as ethnic members of the Religion of Peace from outside the general area of Southeast Asia.

Jim Clancy on CNN is now mentioning the "Asian Faces" thing and as I listen to him I think he is misunderstanding the "Asian Faces" comment as applying to Chinese/Japanese looking folks.

I cannot tell, but I believe there may have been an unofficial report that the Passport holders had "Asian Faces" which prompted the reporters question.


Bought mine in 76, eric, we coulda had a drag to dead man's curve.
I have no memory of selling mine. Do remember I sold it to buy a 63 E Tye Jag coupe though . Talk about a beater. Had to break the engine free with a breaker bar on the crank. Pretty sweet when it was done though.


Weren't there some planes in Africa that did a disappearing trick after 9/11


From Gretta Wire at FOX, here's a report on what I think you were remembering:

Where is the missing 727 ? missing Ben Padilla ? (story by then Washington Post writer John Mintz)

Eric in Boise

Bet you wish you still had the E type, Ig.

Or do you?

Danube on iPad

I once did the arithmetic on how long you are falling if you start at 35,000 feet and quickly reach terminal velocity, which as I recall is something on the order of 120 mph.. You don't want to know. All I can say is that I hope that everyone to whom it has happened has been unconscious or dead.


"Why would anyone believe anything Obama or his flunkies say?"

Why indeed.



Without oxygen, you would pass out long before, thank God.

Ask any paratrooper, seconds can seem like minutes when you are free falling but at 35,000...


Sold it in the mid 80s eric, for IIRC $7500. Worth 10 times that now.
Of course about then I considered a short nose Ferrari 275GTB for $30-35,000 which is now worth $1 million but didn't buy it.
Local dealer had a 69 Daytona Charger for $2500 in the early 70s and I urged my dad to buy it since I was just a squirt; that's now 50-100 times that.
Oh well.


Miami Beach audiences are the greatest audiences in the world! Good night everybody!


Jim Clancy still mentioning the "Asian Features" as if whoever had these Passports where Chinese looking guys, ergo that's why he's saying this should have been obvious for the authorities to identify them as frauds. Not quite so obvious if for instance if the guy using the Italian guy's passport (pictured immediately below):

was a Pakistani National who looked like any of these guys from a quick Google image search of Pakistanis:

or this guy:

or this guy:


The other guy's passport I can't speak to since I haven't seen him, but if he's dark haired and light skinned, it'd be easy to find an "Asian" of Pakistani or similar nationality who could probably pass easily for him.

It may be a colossal easy screw-up by the Customs agents but I think CNN's Jim Clancy is jumping the gun on his conclusion that they obviously looked like our understanding of ethnic Asian features, so they should have stuck out like sore thumbs.

Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club

Thanks daddy. That's probably the story I was thinking about. Weird that nothing was ever conclusive as I'd think if it was sold for parts, that serial numbers or something would give it away eventually.

Danube on iPad

"Without oxygen, you would pass out long before, thank God"

Thank God indeed. I'm thinking primarily about an intact aircraft that is headed down to certain disaster with all those terrified souls on board. Remember the Alasks Airlines flight off the CA coast that was mechanically doomed to crash, and knew it, and knew that it was powerless to do anything about it?

As chance would have it, we are off at 1100 PDT on Monday for Los Barriles via San Jose del Cabo on Alaska Airlines. I will enjoy three Bloodys enroute, just because that's an enjoyable thing to do while airborne.

Viva Mexico.

Man Tran on iPhone

Checking in after a few weeks of being perpetually 3-4 days behind.

Got my retina repair induced cataract replaced a couple of weeks ago and the cornea edema is nearly gone. One more temp lens in an old pair of glasses should get me to a final prescription in another couple of weeks.

My R&D project is on the home stretch and plan to show it in early April at the Annual Review in Col. Springs.

For you car guys, just saw what must be the new Corvette. Wow. Never been that much of a fan, but this thing looked like a (good) cross between a Batmobile and a McLaren (in black).


Monday and very dark, thanks DST! On the plus side, it's above freezing at this hour for the first time this year.


Man Tran - Great news on the progress with your recovery. All the best to you as your vision continues to improve even more !


Man Tran-- great to hear about your progress, best wishes for a full recovery.

Henry-- snowstrom tuesday night for you?


Snow? maybe... it's possible through May.


Now the breaking Malaysian Crash update ticker is saying The stolen passport users weren't Asian looking men".

Whether they were or not beats me, but that is the line they are now putting out on the latest Malaysian update being shown on the BBC news briefing. Current time now in Japan is 9:20 and night has fallen, so it is dark int he search are at this time for then next 12 hours or so.

marlene on Kindle

Morning! We had a wonderful day yesterday! Our baby girl is now a married woman. The sunset was glorious.We are happy and proud.

Did Ignatz or DrJ feel the earthquake?

Jim Eagle

Regarding whether the passengers looked Italian or Austrian:

This guy is an Italian National:

And she is a Swedish National:

Get my point?


Well that's not terribly surprising, they could Hizb Tahir, Jemaa Islamiya, or any other
AQ affiliate, it's odd that their destination was all the way in Europe,


I didn't feel the quake here, marlene. Both Iggy and I are located pretty far away from any faults.


henry-- you're OK this week, no snow for you. Vermont ski areas will get a bunch, looks like Ski the East through Easter this year. Light snow at my home right now. rain wednesday changes to snow wednesday night giving us 1-2", we are getting close to 60" for the season. Crazy.


Malaysia Air-- I feel for the families of the deceased. Still no trace, no explanation, just the loss. Terrible. 2 most likely possibilities, the AQ boyz or the repair JiB mentioned. Faulty repairs have brought down Jumbos before, a 747 in Japan about 30 years ago, wjen a pressure cabin bulkhead was negligently repaired and it blew out the tail section as the 747 pressured at altitude. The Air France stall fiasco seems so remote, but it happened once. Just terrible.


I also want to say that just back in from evening chow and beers, I caught on BBC some talking head making comments about the route of the lost plane through Thai airspace.

What struck me right off the bat is that I don't believe that the Malaysian plane was routed thru Thai airspace at all. The reason I say so is that I was told by my controllers 2 days back that they were routed on Airway M765 from VKB to Bitod, which is the exact route I was on on the same exact day between Malaysia and Vietnam, en-route China, and that is the standard route one would take---not thru Thai airspace.

Here's the map of Malaysia we're talking about on the left (I can't find a map of the Jet Airway M765---sorry) :

They left Kuala Lumpur and headed north to Kota Bharu (VKB) and then headed north into Vietnamese airspace via route M765 to Bitod on up. (Bitod is simply a geographical point in the ocean, not a location like VKB (Kota Bharu) identifying a point on a bit of land) We left from Penang (Georgetown on the map) further northwest on the southern coast from Kuala Lumpur, and headed east to Kota Bharu (VKB) to intercept airway M765 on up to Bitod etc on the same day to follow the same initial route on up thru Vietnam to Chinese Airspace.

Thai Airspace or Thai routing never comes into play at all via Airway M765, so my overall point is that either this talking head guy on BBC knows something special that none of the rest of us know, or else he's totally full of shit from the git go and hasn't taken the time to learn the particulars of what he's blabbin' about.

So again, I could be wrong, but I would have Lot's wife in my mouth when listening to Jim Clancy of CNN or whoever this other guy was on BBC a few minutes back.


Kumbaya, Jack, your 08:45.

Captain Hate

Here we go again:

Romney Donors Like Jeb for President in 2016

Mitt Romney raised more than $1.1 billion in his 2012 campaign, and Jeb Bush is the potential 2016 Republican presidential candidate most likely to enjoy support from his donors.

"Every single Romney donor we spoke with this week listed the former Florida governor as their top choice," Wesley Lowery wrote in The Washington Post.

"The donors said that, like Romney, Bush's time as governor proved he can be an effective leader and manager."

Romney donors also consider Bush the most electable of the potential GOP candidates, which the donors believe is the most important asset for a candidate.

"If Jeb Bush is in the race, he clears the field," one major Romney donor told Lowery. "The natural inclination for Mitt supporters would be to gravitate toward Jeb Bush because he's a candidate that can win a national race."

Bush hasn't made up his mind on a White House bid, and has said he will decide later this year, according to The Wall Street Journal.

As for other potential candidates, one Romney donor told Lowery that Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is "a name to watch," and another said Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan "should run."

A Massachusetts donor said that if Bush does not run, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul would be his top choice.

But a Romney fundraiser commenting on a possible run by New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie said "there is a question of Christie's electability."


Daddy-- the route. How could there be any doubt about the route? wouldn't civil aviation flight controllers have radar/transponder contact with the aircraft on this type of route?

PS: your map highlights for me an incident my then BIL had on Westpac 86/87 through the straits of melaka. His FFG made a liberty stop in Phuket, and then a courtesy call in Singapore. They left Singapore on their way to the Gulf for a scheduled overnight transit of the Straits. My 25yo LtJg BiL had the deck during the overnight leg, which per USN doctrine was at 20kts, so as to demonstrate to pirates they weren't an easy civilian mark. about 0300 there was a god awful noise at the stern reported by the watch look out, and engineering reported loss of revs on the single screw. The CO was in the captain's chair on the starboard bridgewing, taking a power nap. All stop. Diver goes over the side in daylight, finds roping and wood fragments and fishing netting. All consistent with floating nets the locals put out. Also consistent with a small fishing boat. No human remains. All cut away, no need for dry dock. No discipline.

PS: they leave the Gulf in early May '87. The FFG that relieved them? USS Stark.

Centralcal on iPad

Happiest of birthdays to you, Jim Rhoads!


Jeb Bush is the guy that can get the Latino vote.

Will he offer them a free ride or tell them they need to fear progressive fascism?

Only Rove will know.



How wonderful. I was thinking of you last night.

Man Tran, great to see you you as always. I heard from our mutual friend Megan over the weekend, so in addition to your call, my cup runneth over.

I'm still verklempt by this plane crash and riveted to your updates.


Happy Birthday, Jim!

Centralcal on iPad

Marlene, congratulations on a new member of your family - a son in law.


Happy B-Day Jim/JAG Rhoads!

Centralcal on iPad

Man Tran, so glad to hear your eye travails are almost over.

Account Deleted


If you were an oligarch, having risen through connection and suppression of competitors and potential competitors through manipulation of regulation rather than merit, where would you put your money? Why should there be any surprise at all that the oligarch's Looking for Sir Goldilocks search knock on JEB's door?

The Heritage wing is going to have to adopt a very firm 'just say hell no' response to oligarch pressure in order to avoid another oligarch milk maid choice.

Old Lurker test

I will vote for Bush over any democrat but I will NOT be a happy camper.

These are names I would like to erase from my memory:

Clintons (all three)
Any Bush
Any Cuomo
Any Kennedy

James D.

CH, your 9:18 is thoroughly depressing.

Here's the thing, for me. Even if Jeb were, by my lights, the perfect candidate, with views 100% in accordance with mine on every single issue, I wouldn't want him to run. No more dynasties! We've had enough of the Bush family. Three presidencies out of the last seven is already more than enough for any one family, no matter what their good qualities might be.


This is a great post from Kimball. http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2014/03/10/an-outrageous-abuse-of-executive-power/?singlepage=true

When he gets back from the links.

HB Jim Rhoads and glad to read MT is on the road to recovery.

Account Deleted

Happy Birthday, Jim Rhoads!


MT, congratulations on the eye recovery.

You piqued my curiosity on the R&D teaser.

Will you share more on these pages? Or do we have to wait?


HB Jim Rhoads!

Old Lurker test

HB Jim!

One more Lehigh - Lafayette game for you...


New thread, so I'll just say HB, JR, congrats Marlene and glad you're doing better MT.

Marlene that quake was several hundred miles away up near Eureka in the NW corner of CA.
Something about the geology here means I never really have felt coastal quakes that I can remember. The ones I remember are the ones from the large fault on the east side of the Sierra Nevada. I've felt several from the Mammoth area strongly even though it's about the same distance ot the Bay Area where I don't think I even felt the Lomo Prieta one from 1989.


Jane: Oh gawd. I have no idea why am suddenly so interested. So if you were standing there you would have seen 229 people hit the water?

Jane. Let me help. Slowly, slowly, back away from your imagination.


Also consistent with a small fishing boat. No human remains. All cut away, no need for dry dock. No discipline.


Good story. I will also neither confirm nor deny that in approximately 1982/3/4 we were ordered to go into an Italian or French airstrip (I forget which) to pick up a deceased US Seaman in a body bag and haul him back to the ship so that his death could be tagged to the boat instead of to some incident in Italy or France that would have resulted in massive paperwork and diplomatic bruhaha.

S@#t happens:)

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