The Malaysia Airlines Crash

Here's a troubling detail from the news of the Malaysia Airlines crash:

BEIJING — Malaysian officials investigating the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines plane Saturday said they were not ruling out terrorism — or any other causes — as reports emerged that two Europeans listed on the passenger manifest were not aboard and may have had their passports stolen.

...

According to the airline, other passengers on the flight included 38 Malaysians, five Indians, seven Indonesians, six Australians, four French, two Ukranians, two Canadians and two New Zealanders. There were also a Russian, an Italian, a Dutch and an Austrian aboard, the airline said.

However, shortly after the list was published on the airline’s website, Italy’s ANSA news agency reported that Luigi Maraldi, 37, who was listed on the manifest, was in fact not on the plane (link in Italian). The agency said he had phoned his family to say he was alive and well in Thailand.

Austria’s APA news agency made a similar report about an Austrian citizen listed on the passenger manifest, Christian Kozel, 30 (link in German). APA reported his passport was stolen about two years ago in Thailand.

So apparently two passengers were travelinng with stolen passports, which is unsettling. However, what is missing is a baseline. The use of these stolen passports was discovered because the passenger list is under a microscope and receiving worldwide attention. It may well be that all sorts of underworld types travel all over Asia and the world every day on stolen passports with no one the wiser and no planes going down. Put another way, had this plane simply landed safely would anyone have noticed that a passport stolen two years ago had been used by one of the passengers?

 

The stolen passports absolutely might have been used by terrorists; planes don't crash every day, so suspecting terrorism is not unreasonable. But I don't think that based on this coverage we have nearly enough information to judge how common the use of stolen passports in international travel might actually be.

LATE UPDATE: The Times digs in and learns this:

Use of Stolen Passports on Missing Malaysian Airliner Highlights Air Security Flaw

...

Interpol created a database of stolen and lost passports in 2002 that has grown to more than 40 million documents available for governments to screen for terrorists, smugglers or swindlers who travel the world illicitly. But according to the international law enforcement agency, only three countries — the United States, Britain and the United Arab Emirates — systematically screen travelers against the agency’s database of stolen passports.

The two men with stolen passports who boarded the missing Malaysia Airlines flight from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, to Beijing over the weekend did not have their passports screened. And last year, Interpol said, passengers around the world were able to board planes more than a billion times without having their passports checked against the database.

...

One of the many vexing mysteries of the plane’s disappearance was the hunt for the true identity of the two passengers who used passports stolen from European tourists in Thailand in the past two years. A senior American law enforcement official said Sunday that Thai officials were investigating a so-called passport ring operating on the resort island of Phuket, where both passports were stolen and where, he noted, false documents were routinely used by drug smugglers.

So apparently stolen passports are routinely used by criminals, not just terrorists.

Comments

[Ignatz]

Immediately OT, but I miss bgates.
Haven't seen him around for a while now.

[Buford Gooch]

I thought I saw bgates comment here a couple of days ago?

[henry]

If the NSA would take a timeout from endoscopy of US citizens pursuing their lives within the US borders, maybe they could find all these stolen passports.

[Jim Eagle]

Back from the golf. Man, can that Frederick putt.

I read where this particular tail number had a slight taxiway collision with an Air China unit some time back. This could be a structural failure due to faulty structural repairs on the wing, which was the damaged member. It doesn't take much stress over a sustained period of time to weaken wing, also the possibility of stress corrosion.

[James D.]

Henry, don't be silly!

Looking for actual terrorists is hard and potentially dangerous.

Harassing innocent citizens for no reason is easy, safe and fun

[narciso]

AB, points out this disturbing bit in the Journal;

"One European security official said it wasn’t uncommon for passengers to board flights using stolen passports."

[miss Marple]

narciso, They know this how? If they know passengers are getting on planes with stolen passports, why don't they stop them?

Or is this official just speculating in order to calm everyone down?

[Appalled]

Ignatz:

Bgates may just feel like he has nothing to say, or nothing he wants to say.

Not that I am speaking from personal experience or anything...

[narciso]

I don't see how that would be reassuring, all manner of denizens could be using false passports

[Danube on iPad]

Seems like an odd target for a terrorist strike.

[Account Deleted]

Miss Marple,

It would take an international security apparat operating with the efficiency of Visa or MasterCard to identify stolen/missing documents in real time. We choose to spend money on TSA agents frisking grandmas and toddlers instead of properly integrated computer systems.

[Jim Eagle]

The stolen passport of choice in the world is not American but Belgian. In fact, it almost brought down the Belgian government once. Muzzies, espicially like them since they can feint being Moors.

[Ignatz]

IIRC, Appalled, he and someone else had a slightly disagreeable disagreement. Don't know if that had anything to do with it.
BTW good to see you.

[jimmyk]

Seems like an odd target for a terrorist strike.

As I mentioned in the last thread, the passports were stolen in Thailand. Southern Thailand near the Malaysia border has been the site of a lot terrorism. Then there are the Uighurs in China.

[Janet - the districts lie fallow, while the Capitol gorges itself]

Lutes & Chausses!!

[jimmyk]

I was also noticing bgates's absence. I don't recall any kind of dustup. As best as I can tell his last post was a month or so ago in one of the Woody Allen threads. I would assume he just got busy, as many of us do from time to time. Or fed up with the trolling.

Jane, to respond to your post on the last thread: Yes, Mrs K does get affected by these plane crash stories, but not so much, at least overtly. She's not a good flyer, though.

[Jane]

Hell I've been posting in the last thread. Rand Paul won the straw poll.

Sarah Palin has balls of steel. She is impossible not to love.

[Danube on iPad]

I don't recall any bgates squabble.

[DrJ]

I don't either, DoT.

[polly]

Jane, I agree Palin has balls of steel, but I do not love her. And for all of the JOMers who dislike Cruz's voice, what about Palin's?

[(A) nuther Bub]

Or is this official just speculating in order to calm everyone down?

Calm everyone down? To me, at least, it had the opposite effect. When one's name and passport number is put into the computer on departure, isn't it checked against no-fly lists and the ID numbers on stolen passports? I always have assumed so. If not, what the hell is going on?

[narciso]

Yes that's the part that makes no sense, so this is SOP over there.

[centralcal]

Just joining in and haven't yet caught up on prior threads, but looks like there is another straw poll (lots more voters, too) besides CPAC:

Ted Cruz Wins SCF Presidential Straw Poll

March 08, 2014

ALEXANDRIA, VA — The Senate Conservatives Fund (SCF) released the results of its 2016 presidential straw poll today. SCF conducted an online poll for its members who could not attend the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington, DC today.

The top three vote winners were U.S. Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) with 42%, U.S. Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) with 17%, and Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI) with 10%. Over 41,000 ballots were cast nationwide.

[centralcal]

I don't recall any bgates squabble.

I do, but only vaguely, and I don't remember who it was with ,except that I was surprised at it and very dismayed. My recollection it was him and another commenter I like equally well.

[Danube on iPad]

"what about Palin's?"

Drives me nuts.

[polly]

Well, Dot, don't turn on Fox News as Palin has been speaking for a LONG time.

[(A) nuther Bub]

In Drudge's poll -- going on right now -- Palin got just 5 percent IIRC, just behind Jeb Bush's 6 percent. Like Jane, I find Palin lovable. But not presidential.

[Extraneus]

Lutes & Chausses!!

Now you're talkin' my language.

[Jane]

Polly,

Oh she has a horrible voice - but a really fun message.

From facebook:

FatherPeter Preble
So a guy was telling me today that he heard, from a reliable source mind you, that President Obama has asked the Pope for permission to appoint all of the bishops in the United States. I mean really, if you hate the guy fine, well not fine since you should not hate anyone, but if you hate the guy at least hate him for real stuff and not made up stuff. Oy Vey!

~~

I won't respond on FC because of things like the last line, but it's interesting.

[narciso]

Well as with Cruz, what they have to say is more important then the voice,

[Bori]

From my time working in DHS, I can say that Asian markets have been used by al Qaeda as a test bed.

The liquid bomb was detonated on an Asian airliner, it killed 2 but did not bring the plane down. Another larger liquid bomb did not detonate. There were other incidents, but are still classified as far as I know, can't discuss.

[Captain Hate]

Using somebody's voice as a disqualifying reason drives me as much up the wall as time changes; but both of them are realities to be dealt with.

[narciso]

Take Chris Christie. his support seems to be inspite of every poorly thought out move, and
sometimes outright betrayal he has done not
to the party hierarchy, but the rank and file,

the bridge thing, is small beer compared to what he did to Schundler, how he cuddled up to Obama not once but twice, how he stood with Imam Rauf.

[polly]

Well, Jane, I think my problem with Palin has always been that I can not forgive her for resigning as governor. Why on earth did she do that?

[narciso]

Yes in addition to Bohica, there was the TATP plot, the reason we have to carry those 3 oz containers,

[polly]

Well, CH, I would not disqualify a candidate because of their voice, but I do dislike Palin's voice and delivery. Too cutesy.

[centralcal]

Voices? Really?

Obama has been idolized for his voice.

[boris]

"I don't recall any bgates squabble"

I recall bgates going ballistic over something I wrote.

[Captain Hate]

polly, I've been dealing with cosmetic matters being thought of as more important than the actual content since the Kennedy/Nixon debate; so it's not like it started yesterday or is a rare phenomenon.

[polly]

Well, CH, Cruz's voice does not bother me, but Palin's does. I think it has more to do with delivery and substance.

[Jane]

Polly,

Interesting, her resignation never bothered me.

She isn't my choice for president, primarily because given the left's hateful campaign she can't win. Most of those idiots still think she is Tina Fey.

I too am very sensitive to voices.

Apparently some US company had 20 employees on that plane.

[narciso]

A different plane, I think, Rand Paul, whose father's organization got him the win, ticks me off more for his terminal naivete.

[Captain Hate]

Just to be clear, polly, I wasn't criticizing you when I said the idea drives me up the wall, despite how it may have sounded. And as for why Palin resigned, imo she faced financial ruin from the endless nuisance lawsuits from donk apparatchiks, just as Newt Gingrich did when he was Speaker of the House. If I were in her position, my wife would've made my life miserable if my family faced continuing large expenditures with no end in sight as long as I stayed in office.

The commiecrats will use any tool at their disposal to sideline an opponent they fear. I think we are at a continual disadvantage by not responding in kind.

[miss Marple]

If you pay attention to Palin, it isn't really her accent, it is her odd cadence which makes it hard to listen, even if you like her. She pauses in odd places and then strings other things together. The effect is like this:

Ladies. And gentlemen we have to. Realize that crony cor. Uption is under. Mining the con. Stitution.

Her voice also goes up at odd places.

I do not understand why she hasn't gotten a vocal coach. It would really help her get her message across. She needs breathing exercises or something.

[narciso]

the top Mem, almost always ladle the blanc mange, while the opposition, brings the flame thrower, the former is always willing to sideline the strongest figures,

eg; today's Carlos Slim, Schnur, one of Pete Wilson's aides, saying without amnesty, immigrants will consider we see them as 'less then human' well first there's a touch of irony
there left unremarked upon,

[polly]

The reason I mentioned voices is because someone (Frau?) wrote that Cruz's voice bothered her. Voices and their timbre do NOT bother me. I think it is Palin's presentation. Again, too cutesy.

[Jane]

If you pay attention to Palin, it isn't really her accent, it is her odd cadence which makes it hard to listen

Well that and often an odd use of words.

At least she knows how to spell "respect" and that Austrian isn't a language, and there are 50 states.

[Captain Hate]

Voices? Really?

Obama has been idolized for his voice.

Absolutely nails on the blackboard. Talk about annoying cadences...

[centralcal]

Excellent job, MM. I agree about her cadence.

[centralcal]

Yep, CH - yet the Dims and their cabana boys and girls in the media absolutely swoon over Obama every time he opens his yap.

[Captain Hate]

eg; today's Carlos Slim, Schnur, one of Pete Wilson's aides, saying without amnesty, immigrants will consider we see them as 'less then human'

Oh the humanity. Why don't we adopt Mexico's attitudes toward illegals? As I communicated to the Horde, the maps on the following thread should be stapled to Boehner and Cantor's foreheads for the next time they start talking amnesty http://minx.cc/?post=347738

[Captain Hate]

Yep, CH - yet the Dims and their cabana boys and girls in the media absolutely swoon over Obama every time he opens his yap.

When I heard clips of that speech he gave at the 2004 convention, I knew it would appeal to the dunces who listen to NPR, the world's largest collection of unprofessional speaking tics.

[narciso]

Yesterday he trekked down here, past the rubble he has left in his wake, to promise financial aide for all college students, forget that they will find no jobs when they greaduate,

[MarkO]

Obama represents the talking dog phenomenon in Democrat politics. Just think about Biden's unvarnished comment.

[narciso]

Yet apparently Garfield and Mcturtle are willing to trust him, implicitly or worse,

[windansea]

imagine this said in any voice you'd like

I do not like this Uncle Sam, I do not like his health care scam.

music to my ears even if delivered in the most irritating chalkboard screech you have ever heard.

Just make the incompetent nincompoots currently running the federal government go away, any voice will do.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/palin-re-writes-dr-seuss-i-do-not-uncle-sam-i-do-not-his-health-care-scam_784344.html

[Danube on iPad]

"do not understand why she hasn't gotten a vocal coach."

My sister, who has a long career acting professionally, says she could cure the problem in two hours..

[polly]

Well, Sarah Palin is NOT going to a voice coach. She will continue as is. And, yes, windandsea, I like the message just not the messenger. She will never be accepted as a candidate for the Republican party, no matter what any of you want.

[windansea]

Back from the golf. Man, can that Frederick putt.

JIB, your kid is halfway to tour pro, who average 12-14 greens in regulation. Big checks go to whoever is putting best.

PS I switched to a long putter 10 years ago when I got the dreaded yips on high dollar putts, turned my world for the better. New USGA rule outlawing anchored strokes spells doom for me :(

[miss Marple]

Very often we are contemptuous of focus groups, a la Frank Luntz.

Sometimes, however, thay are useful tools. It seems to me a smart person would try to find out WHY so many in the GOP don't like her as a candidate.

Because not everyone who dislikes her is a crony capitalist or a moderate or a woman hater.

By the way, I can listen to Cruz more easily. To me, he needs to go back to his less oily college haircut and go back to wearing wire-rimmed glasses instead of contacts so that he has a less threatening appearance.

It also would help if he dialed back the snark and patronizing comments.

[polly]

MM, Exactly re Cruz. As for Palin, the words and looks speak for themselves. Everyone, I think, admires her shooting caribou, etc. and the fact that she didn't abort her mentally challenged baby, but most people do not go along with simply the way she presents herself. So be it.

[Jane]

No response to the comment about Obama telling the Pope he wants to pick the Bishops?

[narciso]

It is sad how their jedi mindtricks work, Luntz btw seems to have gone into business with the reptillian Nessina.

[BB Key]

I think Sarah is the female version of Rush , Say what we want to say and also drive the left crazy with their unapologetic mocking ....

I know for a fact that from the JEF down they cannot stand to be mocked

[Captain Hate]

No response to the comment about Obama telling the Pope he wants to pick the Bishops?

This comment led me to goggle it where I found nothing. I think that's a bit too tin pot dictator for even Ear Leader.

[Jim Eagle]

The GOP: The New Ministry of Funny Voices. You can't have a party of ideas, inspiration or values if you don't talk like Barbara Jordan.

It would be interesting to poll the JOM participants as to whether men or women have more of a problem with elocution and delivery versus message? From the comments so far, its women leading the parade.

Me? I value message, leadership, experience and competence over trivial crap like voice. But then I am not influenced by the media's perception only mine. Too bad everyone else believes we have a population of cretins who can't determine their own opinion without someone telling them what it should be.

[henry]

Jane, it read as unconfirmed gossip. Otherwise the JEF envies the Chinese on another tool of tyranny. I would expect the Pope to say he wants to pick sovereigns as his predecessors did as a polite reminder to O that the separation of church and state goes both directions for good reasons. But what do I know? The Pope would happily call me a deist and send the inquisition if he could get away with it.

[Danube on iPad]

I didn't believe that comment, Jane.

"She will never be accepted as a candidate for the Republican party, no matter what any of you want."

Correctamundo.

[narciso]

How did the Goloilocks minimum work, remind me, how 'he's just in over his head' went gangbusters,

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/sarah-palin-president-obama-vladimir-putin-104218.html

right now, I would settle for a Nixon, but that seems to be too forceful for the men with the fainting couches,

[tommy r]

Goodness how picky we are over speech delivery. They all sound like music to my ears compared to the turd whose job they would like to take.

[clarice]

JiB, I'd be interested in your opinion of the Orlando congressional race.

[centralcal]

None of our candidates are electable.

NONE. OF. THEM.

NONE. NADA. ZILCH.

McCain was the only electable one. Until he wasn't.

Romney was the only electable one. Until he wasn't.

Jeb Bush will be the new, only electable one. Until he isn't.

So, I am just gonna root for those who are unelectable.

[Ann]

CSPAN/Sarah Palin speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO6C5UwwJTA&feature=youtu.be

What part of that speech do we disagree with on substance? What part of that speech was irritating..the humorous, outrageous, ballsy part that no one in our party will do?

John McCain wants Ted Cruz to apologize to Bob Dole, John McCain and Romney.

I'll tell ya whose voice is more irritating...the Stupid Arizona one that goes after our side and applauds Hillary.

[narciso]

Ditto, central, only Obama and Biden, are electable, no they would stick a harpoon in Stay Puft when the time was right, meanwhile
they turn the money to scrap, throw the next generation's future on a trashheap, and betray every principle we ever fought for,

[clarice]

JiB--the Sink?Long race.

[miss Marple]

Tommy, quite true.

However, we are talking about the general public, which is a different kettle of fish.

I am just explaining how she is perceived.

All I can tell you is whenever I had a job interview, I made a conscious effort to speak in quieter tones and dress professionally. I also checked hair, make-up and nails.

These are things done in order to make a good impression. Governor Palin seems to me to have been so hurt. By the treachery of some in the GOP that she has retreated to what she is familiar with in dress and voice. She is now surrounded by friends and family who are used to her voice and are not going to tell her to get a coach.

It is a shame, because she has a great message, but that is how things are in an America so heavily influenced by media.

[Beasts of England]

JOM censors!

If only...

[Jim Rhoads f/k/a vnjagvet]

I believe that Gov. Palin made a life-changing decision to no longer be a participating political candidate when she elected to resign the Alaska Governorship. I also believe she understands her gift to be a dynamic advocate for an agenda that I mostly agree with. To me, she seems an excellent advocate despite her stylistic idiosyncrasies.

IMO, she does not view herself as a candidate for President. I don't either, but I am pretty sure that she would agree with me on that score.

[Jim Eagle]

Clarice,

The special is in St. Petersburg. Is that the one or the Grayson v. Bonilla race in Kissimimee?

Grayson will lose to a Hispanic in a Puerto Rican district and he is tarnished by his latest war on women.

However the big race in St. Pete is troublesome all of a sudden because Jolly and the RNC are in a public tiff orver campaingn ads they are running against Sink.

If he doesn't win then its all on his head. Safe district.

[clarice]

I believe it is the Sink/Long race,JiB..

[narciso]

When does the party fight for anyone that means a thing, we see how they kept Rivera in the 22nd district, even though he rode that race, like Slim Whitman, right into the ground,

We know what they did with him;http://www.shark-tank.com/2014/03/08/allen-west-obama-concerned-about-beards-turbans-and-hijabs-not-vet-benefits/

[centralcal]

Amen, Ann. Could be why My Friends polled as the least liked Senator in America. Not Harry Reid (Dims are loyal no matter what, unlike our side).

[Stephanie VIP shhhhh its fight club]

Hey I'm well connected, too. In fact I haven't fallen apart all week.

BA DA BOOM

[miss Marple]

It may be that the public is so turned off by Obama that speech ability won't matter.

I am not counting on it.

There are a couple of commercials which make fun of the very real reaction Americans have to a British accent, that somehow they sound smarter.

Now we all know that the Brits have just as many morons as we do (piers Morgan, for example) but that doesn't negate the very real emotional reaction many Americans have.

We live in a culture saturated with celebrity, superficial looks, and ignorance of important issues. If I had my way, the casual voters would be discouraged from even going to the polls, because those people were Obama's winning margin.

To discount this very real phenomenon might make us feel superior, but it doesn't win elections.

I am not saying we have to nominate a moderate or a dim bulb with looks, but the people who ARE running need to pay a little bit of attention to this.

[pagar]

Jane @ 06:46
", that President Obama has asked the Pope for permission to appoint all of the bishops in the United States."

I posted it back at the end of the last thread.

". He argued that the government not only should have a say in how those churches are being run, but who runs them, including government approval of ministers of those churches. Happily, the Supreme Court was unanimous in rejecting Adebgile’s petition,"

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/congress/item/17792-first-senate-rejection-of-obama-appointee

It is bad, really bad. We have to do a much better job of finding out why the Obama regime wants these people in charge of destroying out nation.

[centralcal]

O.M.G.

Thanks to Iowahawk and a link he posted on Twitter, I just saw the most amazing thing ever in the art world!

David Burge ‏@iowahawkblog 7m

Mind = blown http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-artist-paper-classic-sculptures-2014-2 …

[clarice]

pagar, I'm sure that was satire.

[centralcal]

We live in a culture saturated with celebrity, superficial looks, and ignorance of important issues.

Yes we do. So, let's just give up now, shall we? To check all the important cultural boxes we will never field a candidate on our side worth a/an (expletive deleted), so let us just pick someone acceptable and electable.

Problem all solved.

[Jane]

I didn't believe that comment, Jane.

The only reason I posted it is because it came from a priest. A pretty intolerant LIV priest, but a priest none-the-less. Since I'm not catholic I don't have a clue.

[miss Marple]

Gosh darn it, centralcal, I am not saying we should give up!

I am saying we need to figure out how to break through to those people!

[Jane]

What part of that speech do we disagree with on substance? What part of that speech was irritating..the humorous, outrageous, ballsy part that no one in our party will do?

I just love her willingness to say absolutely everything everyone else is thinking.

I've got a pretty good voice. I'll be happy to be her ventriloquist.

[Jane]

Pagar,

I'd believe anything at this point.

[Danube on iPad]

"So, I am just gonna root for those who are unelectable."

Which one would have been your pick in 2008? 2012?

[Ignatz]

--I don't recall any bgates squabble.--

Where's H&R to find it for us?
I thought it might have been AliceH, but am not sure.

[pagar]

Clarice, from the link "his brief in the Hosanna Tabor case,:
It was a Supreme court case; It was not satire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosanna-Tabor_Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_and_School_v._Equal_Employment_Opportunity_Commission

[Threadkiller]

Well, we at least know the 'pick' of one group of LIVs:

Exit polls indicate that President Barack Obama received 69 percent of the Jewish vote.

 On what was otherwise a dismal night for Mitt Romney, Jewish Republicans boasted they had increased their market share compared to 2008, when American Jews gave Obama either 74 percent, according to one large voter sampling, or 78 percent, as is more broadly reported.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2084008/

I hope I haven't misunderstood the LIV demographic as it has been explained to me here.

Maybe it is a nuance thing, because I thought the Jewish vote would certainly be persuaded by the anti 'progressive fascism' message being sent out by Boehner, Jindal, and Rove.

[Ignatz]

I am certain that voice and looks are the deciding factor.

After all McCain is about as ugly as a mud fence and sounds like a spun bearing and he lost.
So then we nominated the handsome, suave, sonorous Mitt and....hmm, well we lost.

Meanwhile the gargoyle Carter who sounds like Festus from Gunsmoke and the WC Field's nosed Clinton who sounds like Chester from Gunsmoke were elected, while the dignified, aquiline baritone Mondale was crushed like an aphid caught by Anduril on one of his roses.

Is it possible looks and voice, perhaps, don't mean a damn thing in Presidential elections?

[narciso]

Well they turned the city of NYC, in part over to Mayor Bane, then again after they washed their hands of Guiliani, their judgement has been confirmed,

[Beasts of England]

Kennedy's voice was rather grating, too, Ig.

[narciso]

Well McCain was picked in part, because he was considered clubbable, I would say ornery is more his speed, he's be played by the late Donald Pleasance, from Eacapte from New York,