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August 09, 2014

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Threadkiller

That poll seemed to backfire.

You can imagine a scenario where 'You could'.

Nice, Rick & Iggy; the Minutemen ran through my mind on their way to the square.

Captain Hate

Welcome to the club, PD.

Danube on iPad

I could do so only to save my own life or that of a family member, and not otherwise.

The Minutemen knew that they were placing their own lives in grave danger. I've got to see something a lot more tyrannical than what happened at Bundy's ranch before I commit murder.

So I've heard lawyers say.

Self-defense is not murder.

Amusing to contemplate his response.

Still missing PD in Detroit.

Jeff Dobbs

"The fetish of complexity, the trick of making hard decisions harder to make; the art, finally, of rationalizing the non-decision, have made a ruin of American foreign policy."
--stuff Ronald Reagan said 46 years ago

Rick B

Kim,

Arming Weights and Measures agents with automatic weapons should elicit an assessment of the intent of our servants. Watching Boston's highly trained (don't snicker) security forces ventilate a parked boat, followed by the suspect's exit on two feet, should also elicit an assessment.

2010 Bostonians may have been content with following Cower in Place edicts but Obama's Fresshit Army force would be unwise to think the reaction to be endemic.

'lazy' is not quite the mot juste.  Substitute your own.

Oops, may have left myself open there. Self defense is not prosecutable, justly, as murder. Intent has much to do with whether killing is wrong.

I think I just object to oT's lazy use of 'murder'. He can surely imagine a scenario in which he would not consider it murder.

Man Tran on iPhone

We had an incident some months ago where a friend and local pillar of the community leased his office space right in the core of the touristy downtown area to ICE. The progs nearly took up arms (and issued death threats to the owner) because of the 'negative optics' it presented. The local conservatives were appalled at the lack of property rights consideration and the free market aspects, as well as the total dependence our local economy has on tourism. (We're the main stopping point in or out of the Great NW.)

It was about the same time as the Bundy incident, so the alternate consideration of whether the ICE people would end up on the other side of a fight was foremost in my mind. The punchline: they are 'local' with families and would likely stand down, if it came to that. The alternative of standing against the community immediately puts their families at risk. A hard decision that will have to be made 10's of thousands of time across the country if the SHTF.

narciso

theree's this new history of the prelude to the American revolution Independence by Thomas Slaughter, and it shows the roots of grievances go back quite a way, dealing with
British troops, the source of the 3rd amendment
goes back to 1699, the costs incurred by the French and Indian wars, the largest part involving the campaign in India, the reasons
for the Stamp Act, a crony capitalist, named MacIntosh, and how events even after the massacre and the tea party changed the calculus,

Threadkiller

McMinn County War, Athens, Tennessee, August 1946

The McMinn County War, also called the Battle of Athens, was the name given to an outbreak of violence as returning GIs from World War II clashed with entrenched political interests in order to deliver the county from a corrupt system. Incumbent political-machine politician Paul Cantrell ran for sheriff again in 1946 after spending four years in the Tennessee State Senate.

His crony, Pat Mansfield, had been sheriff in his absence and had cooperated with Cantrell in corrupting the local government. Among other things, they had implemented a system of fees that paid local officials for the number of people they arrested.

Returning WWII soldiers, numbering near 3,000 in 1946 (about 10% of the area's population), were fed up with the current method of justice. Ex-GI Knox Henry ran against Cantrell, and other GIs ran for several other positions in the local government.

On Election Day, August 1, 1946, two hundred armed deputies loyal to Cantrell watched the polls, physically beating GIs and a black man attempting to vote. A crowd gathered as deputies moved the ballot box to the local jail. The angry GIs took weapons from the local armory and fired upon the jail for half an hour until ammunition ran low.

The deputies in the jail surrendered at about 2 a.m. when the GIs began to lob dynamite, destroying the jail�s porch. In the precincts free of voter fraud, the GI candidates, including Knox Henry, won the election by nearly 60%.

By morning all violence had stopped. On that very day a governing council was set up and six men were chosen to police the county in the absence of the regular police, who had fled. After the certification of their victory, local GIs changed the method of payment of officials by limiting their salaries to $5,000, replaced county employees who resigned, and scoured out corruption in the government . . . and, yes, they also repaired the jail.

 http://www.tennessee.gov/tsla/exhibits/disasters/riots.htm

Seems only logical that the government historian would file this under "disaster."

Sure hope so.

Heh, R, distributed intelligence vs focussed intelligence. Fortunately, I don't think it will come to that in a massive way. There will enough more Ruby Ridges and Wacos to bring us to our senses.

Danube on iPad

As I say, I would not consider it murder if it were needed to save my own life or that of a family member.

There has been quite a bit of talk here lately of armed insurrection. No such thing will occur in my lifetime.

I knew we burned Joan of Arc, but George Washington?

n., I'm almost always amused at the reaction when I tell people that the American Revolution was caused by ungrateful colonials unwilling to pay their fair share of national security costs.

Thomas Collins

Congrats to you and your better half on becoming grandparents, PD!

clarice

JiB, you better not let the kid down.

Think of the grandchildren.

If limited to the US, I would agree with you, oT. Then again, we can argue size. Was Waco an AA? How about RR?

More Joe

AI, not AA. Armed Insurrection.
=================

Bye for now.

Oops.

Dave (in MA)

ManT: ICE=In Comes Everybody

Dave (in MA)

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/351062.php POSOTUS wanted to leave troops in Iraq all along, but what could he do? AxelJarrett made him campaign otherwise.

Beasts of England

I hate commercial air travel with a passion. Hijacking. TSA. Waiting forever. I love private air travel, although with my Dad's passing, I don't have the awesome connection I once had. But, I wouldn't want to travel too far in a Stearman - it messed up my hair something fierce.

p.s. Proud to say my golf swing is exactly like Rory's. Only different...

p.p.s. Good looking trophy for a fine young man, JiB!

rich@gmu

>>>In other words, Mrs. PD and I are now grandparents. :-)

Posted by: PD | August 09, 2014 at 10:55 AM <<<

congratulations.


beasts-

that plane ride sounded like fun.

in re: Bundy's comments. how is it all that different from left, right, and center commentary regarding militarized police forces and no knock raids. Or even the Steyn piece linked earlier (with the keeper ... official US government documents not accepted at this official US government outpost).

Danube on iPad

"Was Waco an AA?"

Yes. A strictly localized one by members of a fanatical religious cult.

"How about RR?"

I don't know. According to Weaver, the feds shot first. A subsequent DoJ task force was unable to reach a conclusion.

Beasts of England

Thanks, rich! Wish I could have talked Amanda in to going up, but, she won the party last night and was looking kinda green even on terra firma.

Danube on iPad

"how is it all that different from left, right, and center commentary regarding militarized police forces and no knock raids"

I think Bundy is thus far the only one to call on the nation's sheriffs to disarm the feds.

Danube on iPad

The Declaration of Independence sets forth a very lengthy list of grievances justifying the revolution. The levying of taxes "without our consent" is the only mention of taxation.

Threadkiller

Bundy request can only be interpreted as a non-legislative request.

It is more fun that way.

Threadkiller

Eyewitness accounts are less persuasive than inconclusive DoJ reports.

Rick B

I have to squint very hard not to see quartering troops as taxation. That would be in addition to the colonials sharing their British cousins fervent distrust of maintaining standing armies. Mistrust engendered by the potential for abuse of security forces isn't a particularly new concept.

Pagar

Now we know!

http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/94263430688/obama-suggests-that-conservatives-are-the-greatest

rich@gmu

beasts-

feeling kinda green myself.

Beasts of England

I was just looking at the aircraft museum website that I linked to earlier and discovered that the Stearman I flew in this morning was one of the planes used to train the Tuskegee Airmen. Not just the same type - one of the actual aircraft. Nice little piece of Alabama history!

Jeff Dobbs

rich:
feeling kinda green myself.

You bought a Prius?

Beasts of England

You're probably not as green as the young lady in your text last night, rich! Or was that you hugging the floor? ;)

Danube on iPad

"Eyewitness accounts are less persuasive than inconclusive DoJ reports."

The eyewitness accounts were contradictory.

rich@gmu

Posted by: Danube on iPad | August 09, 2014 at 03:24 PM-

Rep. Stewart of Utah has sponsored just that thing (his was more limited in scope, BLM and IRS for starters).

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/30/bundy-aftermath-utah-lawmaker-moves-to-disarm-blm-/

also the radio interview appears to be for a religiously active Mormon audience and the topic under discussion was Bundy's faith in the face of the BLM raid. inartful, but then I am not the target audience of the show.

rich@gmu

ha... she is 6 feet tall. very sexy.

rich@gmu

>>>You bought a Prius?

Posted by: hit and run | August 09, 2014 at 03:55 PM<<<

No it was BEER: The source of all my problems.

Jeff Dobbs

It's not March, don't drink green beer.

Danube on iPad

Rich, that guy is proposing to disarm them through legislation. Strikes me as quite different from sending sheriffs out to do the job.

Threadkiller

The interview, rich, was an attempt to trap Bundy with Mormonish quotes. The host botched it up and Bundy corrected him.

A narrative was then dropped into the Mainstream press to create a story which some were suckered into accepting as what actually happened.

Threadkiller

Sheriff's don't gain authority through legislation.

lyle

The eyewitness accounts for RR were fairly consistent in one aspect: the Feds shot the wife in cold blood. While she was holding an infant child.

lyle

And, of course, the shooter was exonerated. Fancy that. Probably got a promotion or five.

Threadkiller

Sheriffs...

Danube on iPad

"Sheriff's don't gain authority through legislation."

Bundy made no mention of legislation.

Why do you insist on inventing stupid formulatios?

Extraneus

No such thing will occur in my lifetime.

I prefer secession first and a negotiated settlement before bloodshed.

Btw, every time I read about a mistaken or excessive no-knock raid, I picture myself mowing down a dozen cops. Would that be murder?

Danube on iPad

"the Feds shot the wife in cold blood."

I hold no brief for the behavior of the feds at Ruby Ridge. I was simply discussing whether the event could be characterized as an armed insurrection. If the feds shot first, I would say it was not.if one of the inhabitants shot first and killed a deputy, I would call it murder, after which the FBI behaved recklessly and irresponsibly.

Extraneus

An Important Announcement From The Ministry Of Truth: Obama Always Wanted To Leave Troops In Iraq

Today:

Q Mr. President, do you have any second thoughts about pulling all ground troops out of Iraq? And does it give you pause as the U.S. -- is it doing the same thing in Afghanistan? THE PRESIDENT: What I just find interesting is the degree to which this issue keeps on coming up, as if this was my decision.

October, 2011:

THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon, everybody. As a candidate for President, I pledged to bring the war in Iraq to a responsible end -- for the sake of our national security and to strengthen American leadership around the world. After taking office, I announced a new strategy that would end our combat mission in Iraq and remove all of our troops by the end of 2011.

As Commander-in-Chief, ensuring the success of this strategy has been one of my highest national security priorities. Last year, I announced the end to our combat mission in Iraq. And to date, we�ve removed more than 100,000 troops. Iraqis have taken full responsibility for their country�s security.
A few hours ago I spoke with Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki. I reaffirmed that the United States keeps its commitments. He spoke of the determination of the Iraqi people to forge their own future. We are in full agreement about how to move forward.

So today, I can report that, as promised, the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year. After nearly nine years, America�s war in Iraq will be over.

maryrose

It's a good thing to question and stand up to the federal government.
I am appalled at our intelligence community.According to Obama ,he is blameless and the intel organization is at fault here. However all knowledgable say Intel people have been screaming for months for Bammy to do something. I guess before his vacation he figured he would make a token gesture so the media wouldn't excoriate him for his golf games while people were dying on a hill in Iraq.
As we all know it is ALWAYS what is best for Obama.

Danube on iPad

"Would that be murder?"

Yes, unless you didn't know they were cops.

maryrose

EXT:
It keeps coming up because it was Obama's dumb decision to remove all the troops as your quote from 2011 so aptly illustrates. He did it deliberately to use it as a talking point for hhis re-election. Just as he targeted conservatives to punish them for causing him to lose the House in the 2010 election. To boot he lied about Benghazi and Clinton going along with this fiction will cost her the White House in 2016. The dems have moved on-she will not be their candidate. The guy from Maryland has already publicly dissed this administration as he readies his campaign for the WH.

Beasts of England

@Extraneus: Is that an actual quote from the president today? I mean, the President of the United States? If so, I hate him even more than the Starland Vocal Band...

narciso

the whole thing was precipitated for a failed attempt to involve weaver in a sting, unlike that nazgul, remember him who shot up a synagogue, if memory serves, he took the danegeld and the protection therein,

that fellow went down the memory hole fancy that, just like the fellow on the Iranian side,
Asghari was responsible for the death of Robert
Ames got a cushy gig and was the main source for the 2007 NIE

Threadkiller

Not hearing Bundy mention legislation means he is against a legislative path.

Not hearing Bundy mention putting crosshairs on the head of a law enforcement officer means he is for putting crosshairs on the head of a law enforcement officer.

Danube on iPad

"Not hearing Bundy mention putting crosshairs on the head of a law enforcement officer means he is for putting crosshairs on the head of a law enforcement officer."

Right on cue, another idiotic formulation. I have said nothing about Bundy's position on shooting a law enforcement officer. I simply inquired how many here would do so. A few have said they would, given certain provocations that have not yet happened to them.

I note that TK has not responded.

PD

2010 Bostonians may have been content with following Cower in Place edicts

Made the subsequent "Boston Strong!" chorus look rather silly, no?

Danube on iPad

"Not hearing Bundy mention legislation means he is against a legislative path."

Most people who favored legislation to disarm federal officers would say so, and not skip directly to the sheriff phase. In any event, any such legislation would necessarily be federal legislation, and would not be enforced by sheriffs.

But keep digging....

Threadkiller

TK being non-responsible requires noting.

Threadkiller

...non-responsive...

Danube on iPad

I assume you mean non-responsive.

maryrose

PD and RickB:
i totally agree. Show of force in Boston was overkill. To cower in place because of 1 person is unimaginable. Room-mate foubnd guilty- justice. Now we just need to get Berghdahl sorted.

Jeff Dobbs

A TK-DoT spat on a thread makes it less desirable to stick around.

maryrose

And yes I am trying to change the subject from Bundy.

Beasts of England

Where's Sophia when we really need her?

Jeff Dobbs

I will never believe there will not be TK-DoT spats on JOM. Either side of said spats can claim whatever they want about giving up said spats. I won't believe him. We could go 10 years without a spat, and I would still believe that we're one provocation away from another spat.

If it weren't against Sue's JOM Style Guide, I'd tell you I was unsticking around again.

See you on the next JOM birthday.

Jeff Dobbs

(next JOM birthday is a grandkid, btw)

Danube on iPad

Sorry, hit and Maryrose. I had hoped to generate a sensible discussion of the futility - and unlikelihood - of taking up arms against the federal government. It never really materialized, and I'm abandoning the effort.

Extraneus

A TK-DoT spat on a thread makes it less desirable to stick around.

Yes, even when the question is a good one.

How to deal with an oppressive federal government? Federal legislation.

What if they don't want to pass legislation to limit their own power? Law suits.

What if they get two more SC justices? State action? Sheriffs?

Seems like a reasonable discussion, not necessarily related to Bundy or Arpaio.

PD

Since you're keeping track of those birthdays, too, ours was born on Dec. 2. She had the very good sense to be blue eyed, unlike most of the infidels around me. If I am lucky, I will be able to persuade her to be left handed as well. I doubt that I'll have much luck passing on the colorblindness, though probably that is for the best!

Threadkiller

Posting false stories regarding Bundy is the best way to create honest discussion regarding armed insurrection.

Not commenting about the post that describes the Armed insurrection in Athens, Georgia proves that the best intentions are to be believed.

Thomas Collins

Maryrose, note that the stay in place order in the Tsarnaev hunt was all hat and no cattle (not even a cold Big Mac). I had no trouble getting around Beantown, on car ir on foot, the stay of the stay in place "order". I think the real police effort was to keep people out of Watertown and nearby areas.

Extraneus

San Jose Police Dept. Spends Two Years Denying Any Interest In Drones Before Apologizing And Handing Over Documents

The following is from the link (didn't want to blockquote a blockquote):

The San Jose Police Department has spent more than two years denying it has a drone in its possession, having returned no responsive documents to MuckRock during its 2012 and 2013 "drone census" document requests. The drone the SJPD pretended to not have in its possession (until just recently) may have not been acquired until early 2014, but its grant application was actually submitted sometime prior to November 30, 2012. But this is how the SJPD responded during previous requests.

On December 17, 2012, an analyst within the SJPD Research and Development Unit specifically responded that the department had no records regarding research into drones or plans to use unmanned aerial vehicles.

In October 2013, SJPD swatted away a second request for records.

“Our Department does not use aerial drones, remotely piloted vehicles (RPVs), remotely piloted aircraft (RPAs), unmanned aerials (UAs), unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and/or unmanned aerial systems (UASs), nor does our Fiscal Unit have any records related to these items,” wrote Monique Villarreal, an R&D analyst in the SJPD chief’s office, on October 16, 2013.

Unfortunately for the SJPD, its drone-acquisition activities were generating paperwork elsewhere -- documents it couldn't hide, like city council meeting minutes in which funding for an unmanned aerial vehicle was discussed.

Now, the SJPD has turned over all of its drone documents, along with an apology for hiding this information from the public.

Jeff Dobbs

PD:
Since you're keeping track of those birthdays, too, ours was born on Dec. 2.

OH! I'll stick around for that.

That's the best B-Day of all B-Days on JOM. Although our dear friend Topsecretk9 has long since left us, whose B-Day was on Dec 2 . . . Dec 2 remains the B-Day of JOM All Time Favorite Clarice *and* hit and run All Time Favorite mrs hit and run.

Grandgirl PD is now on The List as well.

Extraneus
In hindsight, SJPD should have done a better job of communicating the purpose and acquisition of the UAS device to our community. The community should have the opportunity to provide feedback, ask questions, and express their concerns before we move forward with this project. To this end, we will first develop a community outreach plan before we take steps to deploy the UAS.
Thomas Collins

OK, H&R, so as not to be put on the JOM rack, I will not point out which stay should have been day and what ir should have been.

Threadkiller

Hit, I sincerely misunderstood your position on the Pavlovian response game.

Beasts of England

The PGA Championship is in fine form. Nine players within two strokes of leader McIlroy. And while I'm not a big fan of Valhalla holding a major, it's in perfect condition and delivering an exciting weekend of golf!

Extraneus

WHITE STUDENTS TO NO LONGER BE MAJORITY AT SCHOOL

KENNETT SQUARE, Pa. (AP) -- For the first time, U.S. public schools are projected this fall to have more minority students than non-Hispanic whites, a shift largely fueled by growth in the number of Hispanic children.

Wouldn't the white students then be minority students?

Extraneus

OBAMA: BAD INTELLIGENCE BEHIND ISIS UNDERESTIMATION

Saturday from the White House South Lawn, President Barack Obama blamed "intelligence estimates" for not anticipating the speed in which ISIS would capture large sections of Iraq.

The president,who has been under harsh media criticism for likening ISIS to an Al-Qaeda JV basketball team in January said, "There is no doubt that their advance their movement over the last several of months has been more rapid than the intelligence estimates and I think the the expectation of policy makers both in and outside of Iraq."

Aw. Bad intelligence? Harsh media criticism? lol

Janet - the districts lie fallow, while the Capitol gorges itself

bick·er
ˈbikər/
verb
gerund or present participle: bickering

1.
argue about petty and trivial matters.
"whenever the phone rings, they bicker over who must answer it"
synonyms: quarrel, argue, squabble, wrangle, fight, disagree, dispute, spar, have words, be at each other's throats, lock horns;
informal: scrap, spat
"they never bickered before they were married"

Jeff Dobbs

DoT:
Sorry, hit

No need for that.

TK:
Hit, I sincerely misunderstood your position on the Pavlovian response game.

No need for that either.

I love you both.

It's just Tough Cheese all the way down.

Captain Hate

Beasts I think they saved the best for the last major. Very nice logjam near the top.

narciso

well it's turtle's all down from Patrick, to Mumbles to the DA, whose previous exploits including a hacker to kill themselves, from the FBI to Tides to the BCIC, there were enough
signals on the T-Dawgs to light up I-95, yet they still couldn't point them out, or even now pick out who helped them build the bomb,

Man Tran on iPhone

Ok, Beasts, I have to ask: is that a busted axle, or a steam fitting, or what?

I can see what might be wood coming off like a old prop, but it looks way funky.

Beasts of England

Phabulous Phil is now only one shot back!

Stephanie tortoise not the hare

Beasts, you...have mail.

Captain Hate

Lefty's on one of his back nine charges.

Stephanie tortoise not the hare

Come on Ricky!

Danube on iPad

Needless to say, the armed insurrection nearly 70 years ago had nothing to do with the federal government or federal agents.

I inquired as to how I had misrepresented Bundy, and still have seen no reply. Most of the item I posted is a direct quote attributed to Bundy.

Beasts of England

@Man Tran: Propeller is correct. Not sure you can see the writing on it (can see it better if you click on my nic), but it says 'Sopwith Aviation Co. Ltd.'. A Clerget radial on a replica Sopwith triplane I saw this morning.

Danube on iPad

Cliven Bundy:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/03/cliven-bundy-iap-god-civil-war-_n_5646121.html

narciso

they don't buy that silly story, if beating ISIS and Nusra Front was a thing, we would be sharing intel with Bashir, not fronting the Saudi/Qatari's hand picked men


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/09/obama-has-no-plan-to-beat-isis.html

Danube on iPad

Cliven Bundy:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/58267899-90/agents-armed-battle-blm.html.csp

Captain Hate

When Rory gets pressured he really bears down and sticks it. I like Jason Day but have zero confidence in him when he gets close to the lead; hopefully the reverse jinx will work for him.

Sandy--Engorged Capital~Fallow Districts--Daze

Flag pole with Old Glory & Kurdish Flag -- CHECK

Empty Chair -- CHECK

Arabic letter nuun and #WeAreN -- CHECK

Sandy--Engorged Capital~Fallow Districts--Daze

ISIS in Mosul Marks Christian Homes, Patriarch Issues Urgent Appeal

Captain Hate

That sums it up well, Sandy.

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Wilson/Plame