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September 12, 2014

Comments

GMax

Firsty

MarkO

At least he still has the hat to this day.

Ignatz

--Kerry: ISIS not a 'war'--

For the ultimate Santayana moment he can put on his magic hat and tell us it's just an "incursion".

narciso

Rod Dreher excusing the feeding of crocs;

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/us-conservative-contempt-for-arab-christians/

Jim

Anyone familiar with kerry and obama will be very, very reluctant to form a war coalition with them. They will never get the international support GW Bush got because they cannot be trusted the way W could.

MarkO

Would you send a child to fight under the command of Obama and Kerry?

Hell no, we won't go?

Rick B

I'd be OK with the First Occupoopers providing sandals on the ground in Iraq and Syria. Under UN/Coexist banners, of course.

Jeff Dobbs

MarkO:
Would you send a child to fight under the command of Obama and Kerry?


"How do you ask a man to be the first man to die for a mistake?"
--stuff Kerry (almost) said, way back when

narciso

yes, but that faction would more likely be joining ISIS, consider that Canadian 9/11 denialist Poulin, who's big in their recruiting efforts,

peter

we have a winner Iggy at 11:46

Captain Hate

Is there any evidence 404 and Clutch Cargo trust each other?

NK

Dreher accurately describes the Maronite/Coptic/Orthodox perspective. As to his conclusions about motives and purposes, who knows? But apparently Cruz supporters and critics alike think I'm naive to assume Cruz did not deliberately call out the meeting participants. I wonder if Dreher attended this maronite Church in Brooklyn, I went to a fair number of weddings and baptisms there in the 1980s, it is a stunning church-- the first scene in Prizzi's Honor was filmed there: http://ololc.org/

henry

How nice. The MSM has Christians throwing rocks at each other. While I do not like the anti-semitism on display, I am more concerned with the head chopping going on right now (not worried that some chopees are not Christian). Who ever is doing it must be stopped. Quibbles over the Judean Peoples Front vs the Peoples Front of Judea do not stop the head choppers.

Some Guy

narciso,

Did you see this editorial note from Rod Dreher in comments:

I'm not defending the Arab Christians' antipathy for Israel. As far as I can tell, some of it is justified, most of it is just anti-Semitism. What I'm objecting to is Cruz using this opportunity to change the subject from Christian persecution to the wrongthink of Arab Christians on the subject of Israel. It was as if he baited those people. I do not believe the persecuted Christians of that region are worth caring about only insofar as they love Israel. Do you?


It's interesting that a statement of how two groups share a common threat, and not a minor threat, but one that involves mass extermination and genocide, would get twisted into "I do not believe the persecuted Christians of that region are worth caring about only insofar as they love Israel."

How many logical fallacies did Rod have to jump through to get there?

What Rod, and the people he is defending, are missing is akin to someone telling a audience of Frenchman in the late 30's that they ought to understand that their interests are shared by Poland, and being met with "boo!". Nobody would infer any nuanced meaning other than the audience didn't particularly like Poles and to their own peril.

It's all complicated and nuanced until some insane despot makes things clearer.


NK

amen henry. but it is an ancient and complex situation for the christians in the holy land, syria, northern egypt, turkey (greater) and Iraq.

Ignatz

That Dreher column is remarkably stupid, even meeting the DoT "jackal" test;

Five Christian patriarchs of persecuted Christian peoples came to the United States to meet and to talk about what their people are suffering, and these right-wing jackals, including Sen. Cruz, jumped them and tried to trash and exploit them for American political purposes.

What's especially odd is people like Dreher don't seem to understand why it hurts the cause of ME Christians to simultaneously come here to justifiably cry out for assistance as persecuted religious minorities amongst the muslims while simultaneously apparently supporting the persecution of another religious minority by the same religion.
It especially undermines their position to support monstrous regimes like Assad and Hezbollah simply because they protect, or at least don't slaughter them for political purposes.
They end up looking unflatteringly and perhaps unfairly somewhat like the "official" state sanctioned churches of the old Soviet bloc and China.

Rome wasn't Christianized by the early church by reaching a political accommodation with Caesar.

None of that means we should have any less sympathy for or do less [would it be possible to do less] to stop the persecution of ME Christians. But they'd help their cause and be doing the right thing if they remembered it was a Jew who extended His love to the gentile world that saved them in the first place and they might consider that in who they make common cause with.

NK

@12:30 I agree with the last sentence and that conclusion. But the French-Pole analogy is not accurate. More accurate would be Churchill telling the French in February 1940 (during the 'phony war') that:
"You French must love the Poles and Poland, otherwise you are friends of the Nazis."
Of course Churchill said know such thing, the French were allies and that would have bee counterproductive.

Some Guy

"You French must love the Poles and Poland, otherwise you are friends of the Nazis."

Please quote the exact equivalent from Cruz' remarks.

Ignatz

Even God wouldn't waste His time commanding Frenchmen to love anyone but Frenchmen. :)

Danube on iPad

I must confess that I do not know what my jackal test is.

Some Guy

Ig, imagine how scary it would be for an audience of Poles at the time hearing, "Poland has no greater ally than France."

Some Guy

"Jackal Test" sounds like a Bond villain's henchman...

Extraneus

There are a fair number of antisemitic people in this country, most of whom are nominally Christian. Since few among them are principled conservatives, the majority of these people would reflexively attack Cruz over this.

NK

@12:52-- that's exactly what happened yesterday, telling a bunch of ME christians that they must love Israel and the Jews, is at best a waste and for some of that audience, provocative. I am in the minority, but I still assume it was not meant by Cruz as a provacation, instead it is his pat speech (a sincere speech) about the common interests of christians and jews against the savages, but it riled up the obnoxious or worse members of that audience.

jimmyk

but it riled up the obnoxious or worse members of that audience.

And that's a mistake because...

I posted this at the end of dying thread, so will repost.

From narc's link, that "conservative" Ross Douthat tweets:

Telling M.E. Christians they "have no greater ally than the Jewish state," the line that touched off the booing, is risible.

As Harsanyi points out, there is only one state in the ME that doesn't discriminate against or persecute Christians. Three guesses and the first two don't count.

Some Guy

@12:52-- that's exactly what happened yesterday,

NK, his remarks weren't very long, it should have taken less than 15 seconds to produce a quote. Unless, of course nothing he said was remotely like your assertion.

Since you have to "restate" his remarks to make your point, perhaps you should rethink your point.

NK

Sorry JimmyK, but Douhat happens to be correct. Does the IDF protect syrian or Egyptian christians? rhetorical question obviously, for those people their greatest source of armed protection are the professional Syrian and Egyptian militaries(disloyal and unreliable protection, but it's all they've got).

AliceH

Betcha if Cruz had said "If you hate the Muslim people, you are not reflecting the teachings of Christ", no one (at the conference) would have batted an eye.

James D.

I'm with Ig at 12:31.

I don't think, based on the transcript posted in the prior thread, that Cruz said anything objectionable or incorrect. Maybe it wasn't perfectly nuanced and pitched for the audience, but over the last six years, I've come to value nuance less and less every single day.

Maybe if we had more blunt truth-telling over the last six (or maybe the last 25) years, this country, and the world at large, wouldn't have some of the problems we now face.

GMax

This dispute between various ME Christian sects is really nothing new. There has been near riots between monks of the different sects at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem for centuries.
Here is a article on it that makes clear this goes back centuries:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/04/christian-monks-square-off-at-one-of-jerusalem-s-holiest-sites.html

AliceH

for those people their greatest source of armed protection ...

Protection from Jews? from Israel? I can't figure it out. Protection from what exactly?

NK

Protection = from the jihadi head choppers, and plain old armed bandits and gangsters. The ME is not a nice place, never has been.

GMax

Michel Aoun Maronite Christians in Lebanon are part of the coalition that includes Hezbollah ( I think the Druse are in the coalition too ).

I have never understood Aoun so I will likely not quite get these ME Christians of undefined sects that booed for someone telling them the truth, whether they wished to hear it or not.

AliceH

I'll let Cruz answer my own (sarcastic) question:

"...the very same people who persecute and murder Christians right now, who crucify Christians, who behead children, are the very same people who target Jews for their faith, for the same reason.”

Israel fights those who persecute Christians. That is what makes Israel an ally. And, frankly, Israel and the IDF do much much more than the US does on that front. How can Israel NOT be seen as an ally? Only by running it through a filter of anti-Zionism and antisemitism.

NK

This isn't lecturing faithful christians about what Jesus commands them to do? lecturing christians about faith whose devotion to Jesus stretches back over 1800 years? whose devotion isn't challenged by obnoxious media accounts and godless Hollywood like us fat and happy americans, no, these people and their kin have their devotion to jesus challenged by murderous savages with guns and swords. The more I read these words the more deliberate and provactive they are. the audacity:

" Let me say this, those who hate Israel, hates America. And those who hate Jews, hate Christians. And if this room will not recognize that, then my heart weeps, that the men and women here will not stand in solidarity with Jews and Christians alike who are persecuted by radicals [applause] who seek to — [applause]. If you hate the Jewish people you are not reflecting the teachings of Christ [applause]. And the very same people who persecute and murder Christians right now, who crucify Christians and behead Children are the very same people who target and murder Jews for their faith for the very same reason."

jimmyk

So "ally" only means immediate (albeit unreliable) protection from local headchoppers in exchange for loyalty, dhimmi taxes, and who knows what else? There are shopkeepers ins South Philly that get that kind of "protection," but I don't know if they consider the protectors their "greatest allies."

AliceH

NK - do you understand that "those who hate" in the first 2 sentences is referring to Islamic extremists, such as Hamas and Hezbollah?

Some Guy

Interestingly, Douthat and Dreher may have successfully made me rethink this entire issue.

How did Dreher put it? I do not believe the persecuted Christians of that region are worth caring about only insofar as they love Israel. Do you?

Well, should I care about potential victims of slaughter, if said victims don't care about potential victims of slaughter other than themselves?

Should I care for, and dedicate blood and treasure, to a religious minority, that doesn't respect a different religious minority nor one they would dedicate any blood and treasure to protect?

Should we risk anything to a group that is ambivalent (best case?) to the only country in the region that wouldn't sell them out to ISIS?

Yes, like all good writers, they got me rethinking my outlook on this. Is that what they wanted?

NK

jimmyk-- you're starting to get it. The syrian and egyptian militaries are unreliable and unfriendly (and expensive) protection. it is pitiful that it is all these people have,and it is mortally insufficient. That's why hundreds of thousands of ME christians have been murdered or forced out of their homes in just the lst 2 decades. It is genocidal. This group is trying to educate the sects that a common front that allies with the USA and Israel is the only way to survive. I wish this group luck, because extinction of the christians in the home of Christ their savior is the only alternative.

Some Guy

NK, so you're now having to rely on Cruz' response to the boos and obvious hatred, and post hoc claim that was the provocation?

Come on.

Sue

NK,

At sw point you stopped arguing their boos was over being lectured to. I guess you have decided, along with the rest of us, that they booed because they dislike Jews.

Sue

Sw=some

Jack is Back!

NK,

What's with the 1,800 years number you're using?

NK

@1:33-- ME christian genocide? They brought it on themselves, why should we care. There are historical analogies to that kind of opinion. They are not pretty.

NK

JiB-- the Egyptian Copts have been an organized sect dating back to the 3rd century and beyond to St Mark. They are our bridge to Christ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_history

Sue

NK,

I see now why you are having trouble with Cruz. You read into things that aren't said. Some Guy didn't even come close to saying what you attributed to him.

NK

the @1:14 link is a primer on the volatile nature of ME christian sects and their historical fractures. organizing those sects for their own mutual defense is a massively complex task. Lecturing the sects about their faith in a public meeting is at best thoughtly counterproductive, at worst, deliberately provactive. Which happened here?

NK

... thoughtlessly..

GMax

Do we know for sure Copts were in the room? What exactly do we know about the makeup of the group? I admit that I have no clue on these questions, beyond the amorphous Middle East Christians which includes an incredible number of potential groups, and I suppose might even be expanded to Armenians.

Sue

I'm hoping it was deliberate. Because until now I had no idea that ME Christians hated Jews.

NK

Don't know the roster of attendees, I assume Copt clergy and lay leaders, plus maronites were present, and 'ME' would likely include Armenians and greater Turkey.

Sue

I didn't know Helen Thomas claimed the Christian faith. Nothing she ever said or did was a witness for Christ. I thought at best she was athiest or agnostic or even leaning towards Islam.

Danube on iPad

Obama and Rice know better:

"Such a mission was not the U.S. military’s preferred option. Responding to a White House request for options to confront the Islamic State, Gen. Lloyd Austin, the top commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, said that his best military advice was to send a modest contingent of American troops, principally Special Operations forces, to advise and assist Iraqi army units in fighting the militants, according to two U.S. military officials. The recommendation, conveyed to the White House by Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was cast aside in favor of options that did not involve U.S. ground forces in a front-line role, a step adamantly opposed by the White House. Instead, Obama had decided to send an additional 475 U.S. troops to assist Iraqi and ethnic Kurdish forces with training, intelligence and equipment."

NK

Here's their 'summit' website. Very broad tent, they invited all who would come: http://www.idcsummit.org/register/

Captain Hate

I read somewhere else (either AoS or WZ) that the crowd was infiltrated with CAIR types and the spokesman for the group hosting it may have been unaware of their presence.

Sue

How can you be a Christian and hate the very religion that Christ came from? He wasn't a Christian. He was of the Jewish faith.

Some Guy

@1:33-- ME christian genocide? They brought it on themselves, why should we care. There are historical analogies to that kind of opinion. They are not pretty.

WOW.

Just WOW.

That's actually as vile as it is ignorant.

Jack is Back!

DoT,

I can see Rice, ValJar, Obama and Hagel sitting down for a lunch of arugala and Triple Whoppers planning the air strikes ala McGeorge Bundy and LBJ:)

Cecil Turner

Remember when "outsourcing" at Tora Bora was a national disgrace (according to the lefties)? And now, we're doing the same thing except we're not even using the special operators? Okaayyyyy . . .

And how would you feel about joining an alliance where the leader not only refuses to accept any risk of ground combat, but also is afraid even to call it "war"? Hey, sign me up!

NK

CecilT-- very true. There will be dozens of examples of the naked hypocracy of the Obamaniacs and their media teammates while the bombs fall over syria.

Dave (in MA)

[ ENDLESS this COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATION ] hardly even fits on a Prius.

NK

I gotta start looking at the screen when I type these things... hypocracy?

AliceH

From the IDC site:

In Defense of Christians (IDC) is a non-profit, non-partisan organization that serves the historic Christian communities of the Middle East through unified, coordinated advocacy and greater public awareness. In particular, IDC seeks to promote awareness and preserve the historic Christian communities of the Middle East and to advocate on their behalf. This awareness will be focused on countries of concern, such as Egypt, Iraq, and Syria, Iran and Sudan, contrasting them with models of equality and pluralism in the region, such as Lebanon and Jordan.
(my emphasis)

Leaving Israel out in that last sentence speaks volumes to me.

Ignatz

--I must confess that I do not know what my jackal test is.

Posted by: Danube on iPad | September 12, 2014 at 12:53 PM --

I was facetiously referring to the conversation you and CH had a week or two go about conservatives calling each other jackals or acting like jackals or something. I know jackals and Cruz were involved somehow and now here we have Dreher calling Cruz and others the J word. :)

MarkO

Is today the day of the jackal?

MarkO

daddy,

You have a rich imagination.

GMax

From the head of this group IDC, a statement released yesterday but published today says in part:

Sadly, there was a small but vocal anti-Israel element in the room. Those individuals do not represent the views of IDC. In fact, there were many more people shouting down the hecklers than there were hecklers. The hecklers who did not remove themselves were removed by security.

“Senator Cruz abruptly ended his remarks accusing some participants of being ‘consumed with hate.’ That was as unfortunate as the inappropriate reaction by a small number of attendees.

If indeed it was but a small vocal minority who do not represent the IDC, I feel somewhat better about ME Christians. The defensive launched by Dreher makes we wonder though if that is the case. Douchebag, he is just looking for something anything to attack conservatives on to earn a bone from his captors at the NYT.

NK

daddy@2:17... and I am going to have to examine the imagery in your comment more closely.

narciso

the AmCon people, had their trapper keeper's out for Volodya, not too long ago, before the Crimean repo team moved into town,

Ignatz

-@12:52-- that's exactly what happened yesterday, telling a bunch of ME christians that they must love Israel and the Jews, is at best a waste and for some of that audience, provocative.

Posted by: NK | September 12, 2014 at 01:02 PM--

I'm gonna assume God expects the average guy who claims to follow Him to behave a tad better than the average Frenchman.

If telling your Christian brothers, wherever they're from, to love Israel and the Jews, who are not their enemies, is either a waste of time or provocative to a group, one of whose core tenets is, love not just your neighbor but your enemy, then the fault lies not with Cruz but the Druze.

NK

The IDC group prez-- toughest cat herding job in the world. I wish him luck, otherwise it's extinction.

MarkO

Blessed are those who shout down the opinions of those who annoy them.

Ignatz

--daddy@2:17... and I am going to have to examine the imagery in your comment more closely.

Posted by: NK | September 12, 2014 at 02:22 PM --

You'll put your eye out, kid.

Captain Hate

According to Tammy Bruce the head of the IDC is a big contributor to Slick. Hard to spin Bosnia and Kosovo as being "up with Christianity" moments. I'm sensing a large disconnect here.

Ignatz

Even the Kurds who are overwhelmingly muslims and from whose ranks Saladin sprang largely support Israel so it seems unlikely to me more than a minority, and probably a small one, of ME Christians are hostile to Israel.

Dave (in MA)
the AmCon people, had their trapper keeper's out for Volodya, not too long ago, before the Crimean repo team moved into town,
My hovercraft is full of eels.
Ignatz

Doesn't Gmax have a poll of how many rank and file Maronites, Copts and Assyrians support a Jewish state?

Some Guy

I've been waiting for NK to apologize for that crap sandwich he posted nearly an hour ago, but since none is forthcoming I think I'll take a break from here.

AliceH

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Indeed. To which I'd add:

Earn more sessions by sleeving.

cathyf

Hey, daddy, I was looking for a shot of the Playtex 18-Hour trademark. Lifts and separates!

NK

Ignatz-- based on your comments you're a soulful and thoughtful Christian. A few weeks back you commeted about how it may be unchristian of us to discuss luxury goods or activities when there is so much want in the world. A fair point, but I'm sure it did not meet with universal agreement, who's view on what is an isn't christian is univerally accepted. But I thought you made your point respectfully and in a thought provoking way to people who know you. Walkng into a room filled with strangers from a very different part of the world and lecturing them about what Christ demands of us is a very different thing.

Extraneus

Walkng into a room filled with strangers from a very different part of the world and lecturing them about what Christ demands of us is a very different thing.

Surely no priest has ever done it.

Ignatz

--A few weeks back you commeted about how it may be unchristian of us to discuss luxury goods or activities when there is so much want in the world.....

Posted by: NK | September 12, 2014 at 02:38 PM--

IIRC, I knew not what course others may take but for me personally I struggled with the issue.

Likewise when Cruz made his remarks a soulful, thoughtful Christian would have considered the plank in his own eye before booing down the mote at the microphone.

Captain Hate

Everybody's jumping on the Slatter Train:

http://minx.cc:1080/?post=351741

narciso

American Conservative, big fans of Putin, before
the Crimean interventions,

NK

As Mr. Cruz should have done in preparing his remarks.

narciso

Douthat most recently relativizing the Rotherdam rapes, I guess he was getting his stinger fitted,

Bori

models of equality and pluralism in the region, such as Lebanon and Jordan.

From wiki;
"While Christianity is a recognized religion and non-Muslim citizens may profess and practice the Christian faith, churches must be accorded legal recognition through administrative procedures in order to own land and administer sacraments, including marriage. Churches and other religious institutions can receive official recognition by applying to the Prime Ministry. The Prime Minister unofficially confers with an interfaith council of clergy representing officially registered local churches on all matters relating to the Christian community, including the registration of new churches. The Government refers to the following criteria when considering official recognition of Christian churches: the faith must not contradict the nature of the Constitution, public ethics, customs, or traditions; it must be recognized by the Middle East Council of Churches; the faith must not oppose the national religion; and the group must include some citizen adherents. Groups that the Government deems to engage in practices that violate the law and the nature of society or threaten the stability of public order are prohibited; however, there were no reports of banned religious groups. The Government does not interfere with public worship by the country's Christian minority."

And;
" Because Shari'a governs the personal status of Muslims, converting from Islam to Christianity and proselytism of Muslims are not allowed. Muslims who convert to another religion face societal and governmental discrimination. Under Shari'a, converts are regarded as apostates and may be denied their civil and property rights."

Jordan, a model of equality.

NK

or if his views are irreconcilable to the group, he should have politely declined their invitation.

Sue

According to the president of the group, only a few didn't share his views.

Sue

Hey Cruz, there are a few in here that hate Jews so temper your message to fit their view, m'kay?

MarkO

Just recalling this:


Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Ignatz

Here's the nub of it to me NK.
Christ knows no national boundaries nor ethnicities and neither should our faith in Him.

If a Christian's faith doesn't even transcend his politics, his prejudices and his regionalism then it can't be much of a faith and I don't much care if it is offended anymore than I would have cared if a church going slaveowner was offended by abolitionists speaking the truth.

Dave (in MA)

CH, was the title of this thread TM taking a subtle shot at your Youtube link last night? ;)

AliceH

Cruz said: "If you hate the Jewish people you are not reflecting the teachings of Christ."

That seems so orthodox and accepted I truly cannot see the offense or the controversy.

But - I'm no expert. Is there another view on what Christ taught about hating a whole people? Did Christ perhaps teach it was okay to THINK IT but just not SAY IT OUT LOUD in certain groups?

Ignatz

--As Mr. Cruz should have done in preparing his remarks.

Posted by: NK | September 12, 2014 at 02:47 PM --

The verse immediately succeeding the mote and the plank, implores us to first makes sure we have removed our own plank so we can see clearly to remove our neighbor's mote.
In telling them the truth I'd say Cruz followed the instructions to a tittle.

Ignatz

LOL, but probably not Dave.

Now if it had been "The guys who dropped a drawer full of silverware", maybe.

Captain Hate

I doubt it, Dave; I'm still struggling to deal with Janet's comments. I was expecting some of the usual suspects to weigh in with slings and arrows but JANET??

jorod

After six years, our president is starting to learn how to be president. Just needs another six years.

GMax

Well which is it?

Small vocal and rude minority

majority whose views are irreconcilable with the stated Israel being a friend and ally of Christians

You are veering off into Dreher land it would appear to me.

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