Symbols And Reality

An astute observer at Slate has a good comment about the Ferguson debacle. A snippet:

We are here today because from almost the moment this incident occurred it was made into a symbol of some large, painful, problems that we face as a society. This happened before anyone, including you, knew if what actually happened that day was symbolic of these problems or not. With so much invested in the symbolism this incident now carries, it is very hard to see it in any other way. When a symbol becomes so closely intertwined with a problem - as if the truth or validity of one rises or sinks with the other - it become crucial to prove the symbol, whether the weight of proof is there or not. Get out of that mindset. 

Everything does not have to be an injustice for it to be true that injustices exist.

Rich Lowry makes a similar point. Obama's embrace of the symbolism is criticized here. Andrew Sullivan has a helpful round-up of back-and-forth about whether the grand jury system is useful in cases like this. Maybe the governor should have appointed a Special Persecutor to deliver an indictment and then present a weak, embarrassing case ending in acquital - that was the playbook in Florida with Trayvon Martin.

Comments

[Jeff Dobbs]

Reality is I'm first. It's a symbol of my being all that.

[Threadkiller]

What injustice was Cliven Bundy's cause symbolic of?

[Jeff Dobbs]

"Don't have a cow, man."

[Ben]

"Get out of the mindset.."

Sagacious words.

[Dave (in MA)]

I guess tomorrow's a big day for feather passers.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/353400.php

[Jane on Ipad]

Wilson should never have been put thru this, and would not have been if we didn't have a racist AG and president. I'm not sure this country can recover from this BS in my lifetime. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama signed an executive order giving every black person a million bucks.

We are so toast.

No one wants to be his defense secretary. He should appoint ValJar. It would get her out of thr WH on occasion.

[Miss Marple]

I have come to an understanding that the dem relatives are not going to change their minds, anymore than I am going to disavow my Catholicism.

So I just talk about funny family stories and such. It makes for a pleasant holiday without any stress.

[Miss Marple]

Jane,

ValJar cannot bear to be separated from him. Not sure, but I think she's his familiar.

I find that giving them each 1 million dollars would probably be more productive than all of the "helpful" government agencies.

Of course, many would go through it within a year, much like the Katrina victims.

And racial enmity would go to Def Con 10.

[matt]

The Leftists's meme is now to discredit the DA and Grand Jury in any way possible despite the release of all of the evidence. I don't remember have read of a GJ or DA doing this. It is is very transparent.

And instead the provocateurs and tribalists are out in the streets ripping off their own again.

Get out the firehoses and see how long these assholes last. Hard to shout at " The Man" if your balaclava is frozen shut.

[GMax]

Yes Wily E Obama is standing three feet off the cliff, defying gravity if only momentarily as the ACME dynamite fuse he lit approaches the flashpoint.

It is truly amazing to watch his one man wrecking crew work its magic on the prospects of the LIAR Party. Remember when his party large majority control of both Houses of Congress? When it controled way more than the currently pitiful 7 states? But for his next trick, watch him pull a rabbit out his hat...

[Beasts of England]

Jane: I couldn't disagree more. Peak lib was six years ago. The pendulum is swinging back to the right and accelerating rapidly.

Reparations would destroy the dem party for generations and Øbama does not have that kind of spending authority.

[GMax]

Wont be any reparations. Will be prog tax breaks that will expire and wont be renewed as first fruits of Zero's actions. It will be fun to watch him squirm and lecture as he is forced to either sign or veto popular legislation. And even better, if he vetos make progs in the legislation vote on the override. So clarifying that even a LIV can understand.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

The Zimmerman case should have taught prosecutors that kicking the can down the road to juries does not placate the agitators. When the proper outcome is obvious, it's best to act decisively and preemptively. Otherwise at best you end up in the same place, at worst a grave injustice results.

[Beasts of England]

That comment at Slate is very prescient. Odds that any progtard adopts or even considers such an appeal to reason?

::: Hold on, I can't stop laughing!! :::

Okay, I'm back. None. Zero. Nada.

[Iggy]

--"Get out of the mindset.."

Sagacious words.

Posted by: Ben | November 26, 2014 at 01:28 PM--

Says the guy who spent all day yesterday in precisely that mindset as he did everything he could to turn the conversation to that symbolic cause rather than the facts of the case and the destruction that symbolism is causing to the very people who it's supposedly on behalf of.

[Beasts of England]

Iggy nails it from the 3-point line. Nothing but net!!

[NKontheNovreboot]

menaing what JimmyK-- not even convene a GJ?

McCulloch handled this professionally and justly. 12 citizens decided if there was probable cause to indict. They returned no true bill... if they had? Try the case and 12 petit jurors would have acquitted Wilson. that is tough on officer Wilson?.... OK, so what. there should be no no free rides when someone is shot on the street, not for cops, or cronies or anyone.

[Extraneus]

Otherwise at best you end up in the same place, at worst a grave injustice results.

Considering the time & legal fees, and the fact that none of these celebrity defendants can go back to their jobs and families and lead a normal life, at least until acquitted, I'd say it's a grave injustice either way.

If a person isn't guilty, it's a grave injustice to indict him.

[anonamom]

Obama and Holder should be held financially responsible for the property damage in Ferguson. It would never have happened without them.
Well, probably ValJar is ultimately responsible.

[clarice]

I think the DA did exactly the right thing; the Browns and their supporters are nasty grifters and this incident has not helped race relations at all..I think more voters identify with Wilson than they do with the late lamented Brown.

[Extraneus]

Oklahoma fights back after feds pull education funding over Common Core

Oklahoma and Washington have finally reached an agreement after federal officials nixed waivers of education requirements that would have cost the Sooner State as much as $165 million - all as a result of Oklahoma opting out of Common Core.

The U.S. Department of Education announced in August it would not grant Oklahoma a reprieve from the No Child Left Behind law, which says states must demonstrate that a standard of getting high schooler prepared for the rigors of college. The move made Oklahoma the second state to lose its reprieve from the law, although Indiana was granted a one-year extension of its waiver because it found a replacement for the Common Core standards.

Oklahoma officials said without a waiver similar to Indiana's, state taxpayers will be out $165 million. That threat is what prompted Sooner State officials to send a 139-page appeal to the federal Department of Education making the case for Oklahoma's educational standards as an able substitute for Common Core.

...

The DOE in Washington sent its decision to Oklahoma State Superintendent Janet Barresi, saying that Oklahoma schools would no longer be granted a waiver from 10 major requirements under Bush-era law in August, prompting the wrangling.

“Oklahoma was unable to demonstrate that its students are learning high standards this year, which the state committed to do under its ESEA flexibility request," said DOE spokeswoman Dorie Nolt.

On Monday, the DOE backtracked on its earlier determination and granted Oklahoma the waiver, but not without striking fear into the hearts of Oklahoma state officials.

Rep. Jason Nelson, who authored state legislation to repeal Common Core, called it "unnecessarily political."

“I’m not a big political person, so I’m kind of sitting back and looking from the outside, but yes, it looks like a big political game to me,” said Jody Maxey, a sixth grade science teacher.

[Miss Marple]

Very soon cable news will realize that most of their viewers are uninterested in this incessant lying and whining and threatening by the Brown clan, and will quit carrying their appearances and that of their attorneys, as well as the pundit defenders.

[NKontheNovreboot]

If there is probable cause to conclude a crime was committed, a DA is duty bound to present the case to a GJ, and the GJ is duty bound to indict. A verdict based on all relevant facts is reached by a petit jury after a trial. Oh wait.. some commenters agree with ValJar/Obummer, we should have imperial masters who decide these things themselves on a whim. "L'etat c'est moi" style. Jeez.

[NCC]

"Maybe the governor should have appointed a Special Persecutor to deliver an indictment and then present a weak, embarrassing case ending in acquital - that was the playbook in Florida with Trayvon Martin."

Great idea, if you're into mob rule.

[Miss Marple]

According to Twitter next week we will get a 3-day Marion Barry farewell.

[Iggy]

Excellent reason to abolish the DOE and any involvement by the feds in education, period.

[Beasts of England]

As I've said before, Miss Marple, the leftists couldn't have chosen a more unsympathetic martyr. America is aghast at the Gentle Giant and his crude, repulsive family. Now we're learning that the 'Burn this b*tch down!' stepfather is a gangbanger and it looks like these cretins have assassinated a key witness, I want them to continue their wall-to-wall coverage.

Petards gotta hoist...

[Iggy]

--If there is probable cause to conclude a crime was committed, a DA is duty bound to present the case to a GJ...--

Was there?

[NKontheNovreboot]

Under the circumstances yes, the body -- sans weapon-- was enough cause to convene a GJ.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

There was no probable cause here or with Zimmerman. And I agree, Ext @2:05, my "at best" was a bit too rosy.

Yes, NK, don't take it to a GJ, as happens all the time.

[NKontheNovreboot]

It would have been an abuse of discretion by McCulloch not to present information to the GJ.

[NKontheNovreboot]

With respect jimmyk, I am sincerely glad you have no authority over any criminal justice system.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

So what would you say was accomplished by this bonfire of the vanities, NK?

[RickB]

That's why they convene thirty GJs every week to pore over the "evidence" in Chicago when the bangers kiss the concrete.

Pure bullshit, NK. Same as the peck and droolers calling the justifiable killing of a drugged thug a "symbol" when their reaction just a conditioned response to a trigger controlled by black racist howlers.

[Iggy]

Doesn't the DA have the right or duty to accumulate the evidence to determine probable cause before it goes to the GJ?
I know probable cause is not a very high hurdle but surely it is based on the totality of evidence not one particularity.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

To answer my own question: whetting the appetites of the mob while knowing full well there would be no food for them in the end. A bit like that commercial with the guy teasing the lion with a big raw steak.

As it is, since GJs aren't normally used this way, it creates the appearance of a rigged process. Either go for an indictment or don't. And if not, release the evidence.

[boris]

A competent justice system would know Zimmerman and Wilson are not guilty based on physical evidence and witness statements consistent with that evidence.

Putting them at risk by taking such incidents to any jury can be reasonably viewed as wrong.

Maybe competence is too much to ask, but it's not too much for reasonable people to debate.

[sbw]

Such symbolic micro-aggression is oppressive, offensive, and filled with nascent trip phrases that the perps are too bigoted to recognize.

[glasater]

˚. ★ **♫ ˚*♪˚ ˚Happy BD Soylent ღ。*˚ 。✰˚♫ ˚ ★ღ ˚ 。✰

[glasater]

Brown's behavior shown in the video from the little market he robbed along with his lying pal in front of the GJ shows his state of mind at the time Wilson shot him.

His parenting was non existant so I fault his mother and father for their neglect most of all.

[NKontheNovreboot]

So what would you say was accomplished by this bonfire of the vanities, NK?
Posted by: jimmyk on iPhone | November 26, 2014 at 02:32 PM

The checks and balances of our republic were observed and upheld. 12 St Lou Co GJs decided based on FACTs whether PC of a crime was committed. Not McCulloch, not Holder or Crump or ValJar, 12 GJs weighed the facts and decided. Those 12 citizens are our check against a tyrannical or corrupt cop or County prosecutor, and those 12 GJs are civilization's answer to Obummer's mob in the street. Civilized people can't stop the mob from rioting, butwe must do what we need to do to keep the republic. And in this case it was presenting facts to a GJ, not letting one man to decide what was 'right'. In America. "L'etat sont nous' (pardon my pidgeon french.)

[Extraneus]

If probable cause is the same as "I think he did it," then fine. That's why we hire prosecutors with integrity. (Just kidding.)

"I don't know if he did it, so let's get it in front of a jury," isn't fine.

[AliceH]

I agree with jimmyk and Rick b.

If not for political pressure and media hopping on the narrative bandwagon, I doubt the prosecutor would have elected to take this to a GJ.

[boris]

I think travesty and riot are more sign we're losing the republic than saving it.

[NKontheNovreboot]

Unarmed kid shot, minor injuries to the cop -- not presenting to a GJ would be an abuse of discretion. These comments sound so much like Obummer's Immigration EO-- we just KNOW what's right-- don't we. I think people need to go back and read Madison's papers.

[Danube on iPad]

I can't fault anything the DA did. He allowed the GJ to hear everything and then determine there was probable cause to proceed to trial. It determined that there wasn't. Because of GJ secrecy, witnesses were allowed to testify without fear of reprisal. Then the transcripts were made public so the world could see what the evidence was. Very well played.

[AliceH]

To continue, because the duly elected prosecutor was stripped of his power to determine the proper action based on evidence, mob justice won. The fact the GJ agreed there was no crime is very fortunate, but doesn't negate justice having been waylaid by politics.

[Iggy]

--The checks and balances of our republic were observed and upheld. 12 St Lou Co GJs decided based on FACTs whether PC of a crime was committed. Not McCulloch, not Holder or Crump or ValJar, 12 GJs weighed the facts and decided. Those 12 citizens are our check against a tyrannical or corrupt cop or County prosecutor, and those 12 GJs are civilization's answer to Obummer's mob in the street.--

I'm satisfied with that.
I hope the GJs remain safe.

[Extraneus]

Do grand juries normally rebuff a prosecutor who wants an indictment? What about the ham sandwich?

[NKontheNovreboot]

well if we let the rioters overturn the republic, yes it will be lost. I don't plan on letting a small band of pathetic racialists and nihilists do that, and I think that's a battle that will be won-- handily. The losers will be the law abiding shopkeepers of Ferguson, USA, who'll try to pick up the pieces after the jackal media leave.

[Thomas Collins]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2014/11/26/michael-brown-death-was-failure-ferguson-police/ZcqOCpyYDFUCnTCcyvtSRM/story.html

The Boston Globe locks up the 2014 Poolitzer Prize in the Mindless Gentry Liberal Ragsheet Editorial category for its editorial (linked above) on Ferguson.

[boris]

"Unarmed kid shot"

Older than I was when I joined the service.
Robbed a store. Assaulted an armed officer.

[Jane on Ipad]

I too agree this should never gone to a GJ. There is no check or balance when the entire fiasco is pushed by a racist, partisan, police hating AG.

[Thomas Collins]

And for the mindless paragraph award, I submit the following from the above linked editorial from The Boston Globe:

"Police officers wield awesome power. In its wisdom, the US Commission on Civil Rights noted in 1981 'that these sweeping powers be subject to constant scrutiny to ensure that they are not abused.' Wilson obviously didn’t wake up with a plan to kill Brown. But proper scrutiny in this case, which includes conflicting witness testimony, would support a lower charge, such as voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. At least the matter would have gone before a trial court and been litigated in the light of day."

[AliceH]

"Do grand juries normally rebuff a prosecutor who wants an indictment? What about the ham sandwich?"

Normally prosecutors don't bring cases before GJs that have less evidence than a ham sandwich of a crime having occurred. That is, indictment stats are based on cases brought voluntarily before GJs by prosecutors exercising their judgment of the evidence, not those that occur due solely due to outside pressure

[Johns_Creek_Bill]

Just remember this truism:

To the Libtard, a lie in service to ideology is not just acceptable, it is a sacrament to be celebrated.

[Beasts of England]

Good ol' Eric the Red. Proud domestic terrorist and armed occupier of the Columbia ROTC building. Cute kid. I hear that he had a killer 'fro, too!!

[Johns_Creek_Bill]

Actually a better formulation is:

To the Libtard, a lie in service to narrative is not just acceptable, it is a sacrament to be celebrated.

[Ben]

Globe;

"Justice Department figures show that fewer than 8 percent of excessive force complaints against police officers are sustained by their departments. State and county prosecutors rarely bring such cases before grand juries, and when they do the outcomes are usually similar to the Ferguson case."

DA's must protect the municipalities from nuisance lawsuits and the unfortunate payout. I suggest a conflict of interest.

Of course they are protecting the tax base from looting, so the public is served....like in a cookbook.

[Iggy]

Charles C W Cooke on; A Progressive Guide to Thanksgiving Conversation.

[boris]

"He allowed the GJ to hear everything and then determine there was probable cause to proceed to trial. It determined that there wasn't"

Watching the press conference my impression was the mass of evidence would lead to no other expectation. So ya ... blame the jurors, witnesses and evidence ... not the system ... mission accomplished.

Did "saving the republic" by GJ result in the exposure and murder of witness DeAndre Joshua?

[NKontheNovreboot]

Should we let Treasury Sec'y Lew decide unilaterally if there is enough evidence whether to indict IRS employees of violating TP members' civil rights? Ol' Jack can decide that himself.. he'll KNOW if there's probable cause.. won't he?

[NKontheNovreboot]

So we are holding civilization to blame for mob murder.... nice.

[Anonamom]

Loved the guide to thanksgiving conversation iggy. Perfect reading for the cell phone lot.

[NKontheNovreboot]

GlennR must be reading my JOM comments :)--

"But it’s not about swing voters. It’s about the base. And it’s not about the Democratic Party’s base, but about certain leaders’ base within the Democratic Party. This may be best understood as an intra-party struggle. Obama is the champion of the urban-black wing of the party, and because of him that wing has been on top. But his star is fading, black voters are beginning to realize that they haven’t benefited economically, and the next Dem nominee — whether it’s Hillary Clinton, Jim Webb, or Elizabeth Warren — will be from the white gentry-liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The riots, the marches, the traffic-blocking are a way of telling them that the Sharpton wing is still a force to be reckoned with, and to improve its bargaining power between now and 2016. At least, that’s the only way this — not at all spontaneous — street theater makes sense."

[boris]

"we are holding civilization to blame for mob murder"

lol, NK clears the megalodon ...

[NKontheNovreboot]

boris, you convinced me you were fool years ago, you don't have to keep trying. cheers.

[Ben]

Some may remember Chris Dorner, rogue cop. Gold badge detectives and uniformed cops filled the newspaper truck with 100 rounds.

"os Angeles will pay two women $4.2 million for wounds suffered when police mistakenly shot up their truck during the February manhunt for former officer Christopher Dorner, who went on a revenge-fueled killing spree before dying in a Southern California mountain cabin."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/23/los-angeles-dorner-settlement/2107289/

Public servants trying to save taxpayer money.

How about spending some money on training?

But that was after their first offer...

"LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith said the department, working with a car dealership, was able to secure a new truck for the women and even covered the taxes and fees. But, he said, the dealership has advised that the vehicle must be legally declared for tax purposes. "We are trying to work it out," Smith said.

A week later, the city gave the women a check for $40,000."

[Eric in Boise]

In re the coming war between "Urban Black" Dems and "Gentry Liberal" Dems: I'll have my popcorn with extra tartar sauce, please.

[Extraneus]

Ready For Hillary Faces Legal Minefield

More like a dizzying array of stupid rules they'll easily sidestep.

[Iggy]

The dark side of Animal House.
Feminazi imbecilities and microaggression silliness doesn't mean real rapes don't happen or that colleges care.

[Jim Miller]

Here's something I hadn't known: Only about half of the states use grand juries.

I don't have an opinion on which half of the states are right, because I haven't seen any studies on the effects, if any, of having them, and not having them.

(The history of grand juries in the US -- assuming the Wikipedia article is mostly correct -- is pretty interesting.)

[AliceH]

Surprising to me, I agree with mcardle on many points here: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-11-25/ferguson-prosecutor-couldnt-win

"...the prosecutor simply may not have thought he could get a conviction. In the normal course of events, if that were so, he wouldn't take the case to the grand jury in the first place."

[Ben]

I remember a lot of quibbling about Scooter, when he was on deck.

"ham sandwich' ring any bells?

Grand Juries seem like a good idea when they aren't assembled as a Kangaroo court.

I think DA's get into trouble when they fail to disclose potentially exculpatory evidence from the defense in a jury trial.

No problem with a GJ.

[Jim Miller]

Since we are on criminal matters, I'll just mention that Jian Ghomeshi has been charge with five separate crimees.

I am guessing that means they have four or five women who are willing to testify against him.

(I linked to, but didn't read, the Toronto police press release. Lawyers, and those more familiar with police work than I am may want to look at it.)

[jimmyk]

Once you treat a case differently, in this case by bringing it to the GJ but without advocating for an indictment, you look weak, which is like blood to the sharks, and you open yourself to the appearance of disparate treatment.

Have we decided now that every time a white cop (or private citizen) kills a black thug, we follow a different procedure than if the thug is white or the cop/citizen is black, even if all the circumstances are otherwise identical? Is this where we've come? Seems to me we should be extra scrupulous about *not* treating the cases differently based on race, but I guess I'm just out of touch.

[rse]

I mentioned on the other thread the push to make the failure to indict basically as inconsistent with America as a racially just place. Now we have this http://www.clasp.org/issues/youth/in-focus/commentary-choosing-who-we-are-as-americans-reflections-on-ferguson appalling commentary.

From the people restructuring education, higher ed, workforce policy etc with Gates funding.

A taste: "Each day, we as Americans make choices – choices about how we live our personal lives, how we treat others, and about what is fair and just. These choices are made based on both explicit and implicit biases that we have learned over time. Research reveals that human choices are more largely influenced by our unconscious or implicit biases about “the other.” Thus, our attitudes and actions toward people who are different from us in some significant way such as race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or disability are driven by these biases. Implicit bias is derived from many things, including our experiences in early life, media exposure, hearsay, or passive observation of the world around us.

Those who are in positions of influence or power also choose to make decisions that significantly impact the opportunities and future success of “the other.” In the case of Ferguson, “the other” is black people, and the family of Michael Brown, Jr. From what we have read and seen, this young man’s life was tragically cut short because Darren Wilson did not relate well to Michael’s culture, his lived experiences, his body language, or his story. Michael was “the other.” And so Darren Wilson acted with haste and force. That was his unfortunate choice."

[GMax]

Diagnosing or even explaining prog behavior is well beyond my pay grade. Places where logic rarely intrudes are not subject to logically review.

I can say matter of factly that this whole $hit show by the Democrat officeholders in Missouri and the WH, and the temper tantrum looting and destruction is playing not at all with middle class white voters, especially the distaff ones. And that is a lot more significant that who is in charge of the rump that will remain of the Democrat Party once Zero leaves the WH is inglorious disgrace.

[Beasts of England]

Kangaroo Court!

::: Drink! :::

[rse]

Michael Brown was "the other," not because of his skin color but because of his own lousy decisions and apparently family members who were/are terrible role models for him.

Given that stepfather's statement we should have every right to classify anyone who would say such an appalling thing as the "other" without being told it is racist.

If a white person or a polka-dotted person said such a thing they would be "the other" too. People whose behavior is beyond the pale, regardless of skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, hair color, whatever.

[GMax]

Double shot if he says "The Man"!

[Miss Marple]

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/225436-obama-amnesties-two-turkeys

Yes, he used the word amnesty. Completely obnoxious and mocking of Americans.

I despise that jerk.

Plus it's another example of how they love spoiling American holidays.

[sbw]

"the other" is the failed gambit of Edward Said’s 1978 "Orientalism" that proposed cultural walls made inter-societal "understanding" impossible.

A contrived, "How dare you judge me?"

Well, dipsh*t, I dare. And Michael Brown, Cigarillo thief, bully, perpetrator of assault, and jaywalker comes up short.

As short as the myopic dipsh*ts from Clasp.

Congress needs to defund Clasp.

[GMax]

Thomas Edsall takes to the NYT opinion page to ask the burning question:

Who will save the Democratic Party from itself?

He does not answer it, maybe because he has indentified the answer to be a null set.

Still for a prog in a prog paper, he is quite dour about his home team's prospects. Worth a read, and explains Chuck U bleating out his regrets on Zerocare...

[Miss Marple]

GMax,

All you have to do to see what's wrong with the dems is to read those Thanksgiving conversation suggestions from Vox, Ms. Magazine, and the rest.

They have no sense of propriety, courtesy, or understanding of others. They want to be the centers of attention, the smart people in the room, the overpowering bullies who force others to their will. They don't care about disrupting holiday dinners (or Thanksgiving travel, for that matter).

A more appalling group of people I cannot imagine.

[jimmyk]

Double shot if he says "The Man"!

Who is "he"? What speech are you guys following?

[AliceH]

Then there's this piece in The Atlantic: Self-Segregation: Why It's So Hard for Whites to Understand Ferguson

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/self-segregation-why-its-hard-for-whites-to-understand-ferguson/378928/

I'm not certain, but it sure looks like they're saying the reason is predominently black communities are dysfunctional, and predominantly white communities are not.

[Beasts of England]

Good points, Miss Marple. The lefties are in hyper-tantrum mode. It's a joy to watch, but I'm thankful that I won't be conversing with such silly little children tomorrow. Very thankful!

[Pagar a bacon, ham and sausage supporter]

Andrew Sullivan and helpful can be used in the same sentence?
Who knew?

[jimmyk]

"Darren Wilson did not relate well to Michael’s culture"

He didn't 'relate well' to Michael, a 300-lb drug-crazed criminal, trying to kill him.

[Miss Marple]

jimmyk,

It is time someone pointed out that they have a terrible culture. African immigrants want nothing to do with it. There's a clue there, and it ain't racism.

[jimmyk]

Never mind, I guess you are sparring with 'Ben.' I agree with whoever asked a while back that any posts in response to Ben be labeled as such. Even better, put "Ben" in your signature name, and it can be narcisolated right out.

[jimmyk]

Yes, Miss M @4:46. Thomas Sowell has made the point numerous times, and with serious data analysis, that West Indian and African blacks have a very different "culture" and much more favorable outcomes than American blacks. And they have all experienced (in their recent histories) slavery and tyranny comparable or worse than anything American blacks endured.

[Pagar a bacon, ham and sausage supporter]

"The smart people in the room"

They have already killed fifty million plus inconvenient children and then claim we have to bring in illegals to replace them. IMO, not worth wasting a minute om them.

[Miss Marple]

You know, jimmyk, a lot of what is considered "American black culture" is really stuff promoted by Hollywood and the music industry. Instead of standing up for the traditional and historical black culture, academia has sucked up to this version, and it ends up being tolerated by people who should know better.

It is upsetting to me because I have seen how these young black kids are derailed from productive lives, instead falling into ghetto culture.

[[email protected]]

>>>the moment this incident occurred it was made into a symbol of some large, painful, problems that we face as a society<<<

just not seeing it. substance abuse, don't steal, don't go after a cop's handgun ... those could be fatal decisions for an individual, not sure where the symbolism comes in.

evening all. Hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Danube on iPad]

"Do grand juries normally rebuff a prosecutor who wants an indictment?"

Very rarely. (They're called "runaway" GJs.) In CA (and I believe in MO) a defendant is always entitled to force an evidentiary showing of probable cause before he can be made to stand trial. The prosecutor can go two ways: he can convene a grand jury, show it the evidence, and ask (or not ask) for an indictment; or he can simply file the criminal charges, in which case the defendant is entitled to a preliminay hearing before a judge, who then decides the probable cause issue.

In theory, I believe that the proper course here would have been to do neither, and simply announce that there was insufficient evidence to go forward. But that's theory; this DA was faced with an unpleasant reality, and chose a practical way to proceed. As a result, the "hands up" and "shot in the back" bullshit have been laid to rest by sworn testimony.

The laws repgarding the use of deadly force by law enforcement don't differ greatly from state to state, and haive been shaped by centuries of experience and careful deliberation. They are not intended to be interpreted or enforced differently depending on the race of the respective actors.

[jimmyk]

substance abuse, don't steal, don't go after a cop's handgun

rich, that is some outdated, culturally hegemonistic, insensitive thinking right there.

[Jim Miller]

Going back to an earlier topic: It occurs to me that we face a reverse Groucho Marx problem.

As you probably recall, Groucho once remarked that he didn't want to be a member of any club that would accept him.

And with our current president, and our current military problems, I can't think of anyone who would accept the Secretary of Defense job -- who we would want to have the job.

If you disagree -- and I woul prefer to be wrong about this -- name a candidate or two.

(I get the impression that Michelle Flournoy and Jack Reed have figured this out before I did.)

[FTL]

The so-called "urban culture" was—as was every one of its previous incarnations—created by organized criminals.

The purpose is to create an underclass by promoting bad habits and self-destructive behaviors in a community that are contrary to the values necessary for a functioning society. Any underclass is ripe for exploitation. In addition to the thugs under discussion here today, illegal immigrants are another such underclass.

The Molly Maguires and Cosa Nostra are the first to come to mind, but the fact that the organized criminals of today are the national democrat party is nothing new. Tammany's roots go back to the time of this country's founding.

Please take a moment to refresh yourselves on Boss Tweed's undoing. The democrats are playing with fire, and I cannot think of anyone who deserve to be burned more than these assholes do.