The Morality Of Torture

The NY Times throws a bucket of cold water into the faces of their Upper West Side readership - torture can be morally justified, says a Deep Thinking Philosopher. In frare instances, of course:

My interviewee is Jeff McMahan, White’s Professor of Moral Philosophy at the University of Oxford. He is the author of “The Ethics of Killing.” — Gary Gutting

Gary Gutting: What’s your overall view on the morality of torture?

Jeff McMahan: I think that torture is almost always morally wrong and that, for moral reasons, it ought to be prohibited absolutely in law. Torture has been used to extract confessions, to terrorize people associated with the victims, to punish presumed wrongdoers, and even to gratify and amuse sadists and bullies. These uses are always morally wrong. The only use of torture that has any chance of being morally justified is to gain important information. But even when torture is used to gain information, the torturers are usually wrongdoers seeking information that will help them to achieve their unjust aims. And even when those seeking information have just aims, their victims are often innocent, or lack the information sought, or are sufficiently strong-willed to mislead their torturers, so that the torture is ineffective or counterproductive. 

So if a drug cartel tortures a cop to learn the identity of a confidential informant, that is morally wrong. Do philosophers make these tough calls every day?

However, there are clear cracks shining through the "Torture Is Wrong" wall:

G.G.: But you do agree that torture can, in extreme cases, be moral. Why do you reject the absolute view that any instance of torture is immoral?

J.M.: Torture can be morally justifiable, and even obligatory, when it is wholly defensive – for example, when torturing a wrongdoer would prevent him from seriously harming innocent people. It could do that by forcing a person to reveal the location where he has planted a bomb, or hidden a hostage who will die if not found. It can be morally justifiable to kill a person to prevent him from detonating a bomb that will kill innocent people, or to prevent him from killing an innocent hostage. Since being killed is generally worse than being tortured, it should therefore be justifiable to torture a person to prevent him from killing innocent people. In cases in which torture is defensive in this way, the person tortured is not wronged. Indeed, he could avoid the torture simply by doing what he is morally required to do anyway – namely, disclose the location of the bomb or hostage.

Which fits directly into the "No Kidding" file.

We get an explanation for a reliably amusing bit of progressive theatre:

G.G.: Do you worry that even saying that torture can be moral will provide an excuse for immoral torture?

J.M.: Yes, very much. The philosopher Henry Shue has a story of being thanked for his influential 1978 article [“Torture,” Philosophy and Public Affairs 7, no. 2 (1978): 124-43] by a pair of American agents who had tortured people. The article had argued vigorously against torture but conceded at the end that the moral prohibition of torture is not absolute. The agents were grateful for the concession, as that made them feel they could engage in torture without doing wrong. I think this is the explanation of why many people who aren’t absolutists about any other moral issue say they are absolutists about torture. They rightly want to avoid giving any aid or comfort to those who seek to justify torture in the circumstances in which it is actually practiced. But there is a dilemma here, for it can seem morally obtuse, and therefore discrediting, to deny that torture is permissible in those cases in which it obviously is permissible – for example, when it would in fact force a kidnapper to reveal the location of hostages who will otherwise die.

What, progressives seeming morally obtuse for objecting to the torture of 9/11 plotter (and maybe more!) Khalid Sheik Mohammed? Say it ain't so!

There's lots more, including some much-too-late-to-prevent-aneurysms Bush-bashing.

 

Comments

[clarice]

I guess this means we're about to get a leak that Obama's been waterboarding or something.

[GUS]

Killing families who haven't had due process with DRONES is OK.

[Jack is Back!]

Repost from last thread for jimmyk,

Better get cracking: Empty shelves at the UWS Gristedes:)

[NKvirusedand back]

clarice-- good point. my guess is that the Repubs in charge of the Senate Intel Committee will spill about how everything Feinstein babled about on her way out the door was BS, and that the CIA reality was far more complicated.

[RickB]

It's more likely that targeting info for President Drone Strike is being elicited by Mahometan allies using the tried and true slow fire technique.

Is it immoral to bake a headchopper for accurate real time info which may prevent further atrocities? Achmed - turn the spit a bit faster while I think this through.

[Old Lurker]

Hey JiB. Tell Frederick that when I was his age I had a secret hiding place behind a wall panel in my bedroom for my stash of playboys. Compared to my brothers, I was the "good boy".

So imagine my embarrassment when I went away to college and left the stash there only to have them discovered by my parents when the redecorated my room after I left. I heard about that at Thanksgivings for decades after.

[Ben]

I think Sanctions can be condemned universally as it tortures children and elderly without prejudice or remorse. Collateral damage like Awlaki's visiting son is a bonus for thinning the herd to conserve precious resources.

[GUS]

Wow. Alan "Space Alien" Colmes, has a new HAIR COLOR!!

DISCUSS.

[Miss Marple]

Reposting from the end of the last thread:

You might be interested to see that Politico has a story up with an unnamed White House source saying Murkowski's reaction to the land grab is an overreaction.

I told Politico on Twitter that this was as much as saying she was an hysterical woman and that it was sexist, which it is.

NOTHING gets my dander up than for someone to tell me I'm overreacting. I hope Murkowski let's them have it with both barrels.

(Old Lurker informs me to calm down and that I am overreacting. To which I answer: Pbbbtttt! LOL!)

[sbw]

I happened upon today’s dead tree edition of the New York Times with a picture of Obama in a floral arrangement in India with two Indian attendants marching forward.

I swear the attendants are from the Monty Python Ministry of Silly Walks ... and the floral arrangement, looked at from above, is suggestive.

I’m sensing micro-aggression.

[Miss Marple]

daddy: Post at 11:48 is for you when you get here.

[NKvirusedand back]

MissM-- now you sound like a hysterical woman.

-- Barry Obama

[sbw]

The PDF of the NY Times front page.

[Jack is Back!]

Looks like a disgruntled Fox employee has shot himself outside their 47th St. HQ in NYC. Around 9am today. He even posted a video of his beef: Bullying.

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/man-shot-outside-fox-news-hq/253611

[NKvirusedand back]

sbw-- do you think the Indians are trolling Obummer. Distinct possibility IMO.

[Ben]

I don't pay the wall of the former paper of record, so thanks for the snippet, sbw.

Loved this headline;

'Christie on Air: Undiluted and Pretty Great, if He Says So Himself'

[Old Lurker]

That NYT picture looks like the top of the cake that Baker in Co was forced to bake for a gay wedding.

[James D.]

I found the story about Democrat Sheldon Silver on that NYT front page very interesting.

Remember a couple of weeks ago, all the controversy about Steve Scalise? There were widespread calls for him to be removed from his position because he might or might not have given a speech to an unpopular organization twelve years ago?

Compare that to Dem reaction to the Speaker of the NYS legislature being charged with a boatload of felony charges stemming from a decades-long multi-million dollar spree of rank corruption. He may, possibly "step back" from his duties, without actually resigning as Speaker (let alone resigning from the legislature, or being kicked out).

Four legs good, two legs bad, I guess.

[RickB]

NK,

Modi has BOzo bidding against Putin.

I think I've already seen this movie.

[Jack is Back!]

Before NNPT the old firm built Tarupur for GE back in 63-69. After that the Canadians came in with their Candu PWR's. Better be a level playing field for GE and Westinghouse to complete against the French and Germans. Either that or warm up the Echelon program again.

[Buckeye]

"The PDF of the NY Times front page."

Zero stepping on his magic carpet.

[rse]

One of mt ed publications this morning announced that the student loan problem has turned the corner because of 2 small legal changes. Yes, indeed, what we at JOM pounced on back when Obamacare passed is now being cited as the ultimate relief for student debt.

Repayment is limited to 10% of income and written off after 10 years if you work for govt or a nonprofit. We talked about those incentives a while ago.

The article NEVER mentions that the rest of that debt gets shifted to taxpayers after the write-off. Do they not recognize that the universities have already been paid or who is left holding the bag?

[Ben]

Using thorium reactors. Why don't molten salt reactors take some of the market?

[James D.]

Of course they recognize it, rse. They just don't care.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.americanthinker.com/legacy_assets/blog/assets/Obama%20Golf%20Dum%20Major%20pose.jpg

Somebody's gotta 'shop this into that pic.

[Ben]

Advantages (MSR)

Inherently safe design (safety by passive components and the strong negative temperature coefficient of reactivity of some designs).

Operating at a low pressure improves safety and simplifies the design

In theory a full recycle system can be much cleaner: the discharge wastes after chemical separation are predominately fission products, most of which have relatively short half lives compared to longer-lived actinide wastes. This can result in a significant reduction in the containment period in a geologic repository (300 years vs. tens of thousands of years).

The fuel's liquid phase is adequate for pyroprocessing for separation of fission products. This may have advantages over conventional reprocessing, though much development is still needed.

There is no need for fuel rod manufacturing

Some designs can "burn" problematic transuranic elements from traditional solid-fuel nuclear reactors.

An MSR can react to load changes in less than 60 seconds (unlike "traditional" solid-fuel nuclear power plants that suffer from Xenon poisoning).

Molten salt reactors can run at high temperatures, yielding high efficiencies to produce electricity.

Some MSRs can offer a high "specific power", that is high power at a low mass. This was demonstrated by the ARE, the aircraft reactor experiment.[2]

A possibly good neutron economy makes the MSR attractive for the neutron poor thorium fuel cycle.

LWR's (and most other solid-fuel reactors) have no clean "off switch", but once the initial criticality is overcome an MSR is comparatively easy and fast to turn on and off. For example, it is said that the researchers would "turn off the Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment for the weekend". At a minimum, the reactor needs enough energy to re-melt the salt and engage the pumps.

[MarkO]

What is the difference between killing with a drone and a sniper?

[Captain Hate]

Looks like a disgruntled Fox employee has shot himself outside their 47th St. HQ in NYC. Around 9am today. He even posted a video of his beef: Bullying.

Sounds like Shemp.

[RickB]

"What is the difference between killing with a drone and a sniper?"

A drone strike is nondiscriminatory - like the NHS in the UK.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.jsonline.com/entertainment/musicandnightlife/dropkick-murphys-asks-scott-walker-to-stop-using-its-music-b99432746z1-289745191.html

People who became millionaires by yelling Woody Guthrie lyrics don't like Walker using their crap.

[Cecil Turner]

I'm not sure I agree with the "torture is justifiable" argument, and certainly don't agree that enhanced interrogation techniques amount to torture. And as long as the leftists resist a definition on torture, I think we're stuck with something like "I know it when I see it" or "something you wouldn't volunteer to undergo" . . . either of which leaves EITs out.

[henry]

IBM disagrees with Forbes on level of restructuring. several thousand, not a hundred thousand, to be laid off. Note, I think the Forbes sources are in Rochester, MN which has seen several rounds of layoffs as IBM consolidated its server lines. Servers are not selling right now. Local impacts magnified by the disgruntled... business as usual in figuring out IBM.

[Jack is Back!]

Headlines that you don't see everyday:

Pollution is Weakening Polar Bear Penises - The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/01/26/pollution-is-weakening-polar-bear-penises/?commentID=washingtonpost.com/ECHO/item/1422293018-340-742

[GUS]

The cool thing about sanctions, is that it allows the bad guy to either comply or make his own people suffer. Only a retarded clown would not understand that.

[Jane]

I decided I better go to the grocery store because I am sure I am going to want pizza during this blizzard, and there were 800,412 in the store. It was 11:30 AM.

[NKvirusedand back]

Jane-- I saw that in Darien yesterday. Stop and Shop and Trader Joe's were mobbed.

[Dave (in MA)]

Jane: ground zero.

[NKvirusedand back]

Report from my kitchen: the fried zucchini sticks were a hit, they were delish, and easy to make. The Chili --my first Texas Chili-- was very good, next time more jalepenos, and garlic, less diced tomatoes; corn bread was good-- I forgot the skillet in the oven for 5 extra minutes, so it was a bit dry, but it absorbed the chili sauce well. Generally, a success. I am a weekend cook work in progress.

[Jack is Back!]

I now see why Miss USA is not the new Miss Universe: She was tutored by Samanta Power, Susan Rice and Hillary Clinton.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/miss-usas-answer-to-terrorism-question-causes-social-media-mockery/

[NKvirusedand back]

Jane-- oh my! the highest totals have been moved north and east, Worcester will get hammered. Less for me, TomM and Boatbuilder.

[rse]

NK-diced tomatoes in a can have a chemical that lets them keep their shape. I have found chopping whole tomatoes always gives better flavor and texture.

Can you tell I like to cook when I am not researching?

[narciso]

well that's enough torture of the language:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/25/exclusive-freed-al-qaeda-agent-was-part-of-proposed-swap-for-jailed-americans.html

[lyle]

Thanks for those who linked that WEIRD piece over the weekend. Very fascinating. I just re-read it and this popped out:

The recent attacks around Paris have caused another outburst of introspection of a highly limited sort in the West. The Usual Suspects are, of course, explaining that all this unpleasantness has nothing to do with Islam. I’ve castigated this progressive myth-making already, as well as those on the other side, who seem to want a permanent war on Islam, which has more than a billion-and-a-half adherents.

Do you know anyone who wants permanent war with Islam? I don't. Then how about this: Do you think Islam wants permanent war with the West? Sure looks that way to me. If not "permanent," then at least until the West submits. So, who is the instigator in this clash? I know: it's the ignorant proles like ME who just can't grasp the nuances like my betters in the State Dept. and the media.

[Jack is Back!]

Screen shot of Snowlocaust:

[Old Lurker]

Ground zero in Boston suburbs...

From my computer I can tell you this about the Nantucket house:

Propane tank is 96% full.

Inside temps are 55F at all monitors and all heating systems are fully functioning.

Generator was last auto-tested at 7:30 this morning for 22 minutes and is standing by. Oil level is sufficient for 7 days continuous operation.

Cameras show light snow beginning to stick.

Winds from NNE but moderate. (Though gusts tonight to 75mph are predicted).

Sea level at high tide not expected to be a problem for us at our end of the island.

I know these things because so far the internet service is working at the house.

By tomorrow, Comcast being, well, Comcast, I will probably know none of these things...but the caretaker has not left for his trip to the FL Keys yet and now he cannot.

[James D.]

JiB, the question is the thing that ought to be mocked. "What would you say to a global terrorist if you had 30 seconds with one?"

It's hard to imagine a dumber question than that.

[pagar]

IMO, the killing of 50 million plus inconvenient children, some of them by sticking a needle through their head; Plus the destruction of the American family negates all the talk of any other kind of torture by the US.

[Man Tran]

daddy, when you show up:

Don't know Larry Springer, but a little googlefu and I find there is a state rep out of Kirkland with that name. Any chance he went into politics?

Re IBM: we hosted MT Jr's best man and life long buddy this weekend. He and his bride (all ex-canoeU) both worked at Big Blue in DC area. (Bride still does.). Anyway, the weekend guest switched to a similar position with Oracle. He was really slamming Blue's mgt culture. Totally unworkable. You have no control/influence with your underlings. Oracle completely different and pretty much autonomous from the Left Coast.

[Jane]

Well keep your fingers crossed. A&M are on their way to Boston with their youngest for a Dr. appt this afternoon. I'm picking the oldest up at the bus, but I'm not sure we will make it to her 6:00PM piano lesson. Just hope the rest of the family makes it back.

I just don't want to lose power.

[narciso]

speaking of torturing the language:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/gop-faces-its-palin-problem/article/2559245

maybe she was more informal, seeing at the futility of the vote, to exact change,

[Thomas Collins]

Well, Jane, if they don't make it back, they can camp out in the Seaport District with me!

[narciso]

well he was an idiot at Time, so logically:

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/top-state-dept-official-nothing-religious-about-islamic-state-execution/

[narciso]

and there's the link about the reporter who found the scoop in the Nisman case, and has been forced to flee.

[Jane]

Thanks TC, I'll tell them.

OL I was once on Nantucket when it got a foot of snow (none on the mainland). The island was absolutely paralyzed because it is such a rarity. Hell I bet they didn't have more than one plow. It sure was fun.

[lyle]

Apologies if someone has linked this, but it's worth a read just for the unsourced, biased claims:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/01/24/the-american-dream-shatters-in-prince-georges-county/

Shorter version: black people who bought more house than they could afford nine or ten years ago, and refinanced all the equity out it, are victims. White people who did the same are not. Extra credit for spotting all the casual claims of "predatory lending."

[Old Lurker]

True that, Jane. When you get 2 feet, the island gets a few inches.

[narciso]

you know the West Wing, had many things wrong with it, but they were spot on when it came to pointing the fountain of Islamic extremism:

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/saudi-arabias-new-king-helped-fund-radical-terror-groups/

[Jim Miller]

Man Tran - Larry Springer and his wife, Penny Sweet, have been involved in Kirkland politics, for years. (As well as running a specialty wine shop down town.)

Right now, he represents the 45th district and was just chosen to be house majority leader. (Oddly, the same district is represented in Washington's senate by Republican Andy Hill, the top budget guy.)

[RickB]

Lyle,

Make sure you read the WEIRD explanatory post. It's going to become the excuse for WEIRD SimWorld's abysmal failure. It provides the excuse of dissimilarities in cultural soft wiring (programming) rather than DNA hard wiring being responsible for outcome differentials.

IOW - this is NEW! IMPROVED! BS created and vetted by the same credentialed moron minds which have done so very much to make the world what it is today.

[sbw]

Hit, to the white courtesy phone, please.

jomhitetc... gmail.

Thank you.

[jimmyk]

JiB @11:39

I'm not going anywhere near a supermarket today. Neurotic NYCers lining up as if everything will be shut down for a month.

Now heading home on the subway. So far it's not coming down very hard, and only a light dusting on the ground.

[NKvirusedand back]

henry-- is it snowing where you are?

[Joan]

JIB: Was just scanning, saw your picture post, noticed blizzard/one millions deaths, kept scanning and thought 'don't people in the NE know how to prepare for a snowstorm (yes, I know, it's the King of Snowstorms, a blizzard, anyway...) went on reading. Wanted to click on a couple of the links, went back up and saw the 'people eating their children' and laughed and ?sneezed? at the same time...now I have to clean my laptop screen. :)

[henry]

NK, we are supposed to get just enough to make the drive home interesting. Not forecast to start for another hour or so.

[Old Lurker]

Rush ranting right now about Obama wanting to tax 529 plans. He is making a big mistake describing how the plans work now, rare for him to be so wrong.

[Miss Marple]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/01/breaking-us-embassy-in-yemen-releases-emergency-message-to-us-citizens-depart-immediately-you-are-on-your-own/

How many American hostages will be taken?

And apparently they haven't evacuated the embassy yet.

[daddy]

Keeping it Classy.

"In an ungainly sight, cameras caught US President Brack Obama chewing gum during the Republic Day parade on Monday. In the picture captured by cameras and posted on Twitter by some users, Obama was spotted removing his chewing gum while PM Modi was seen trying to explain something to the US president," reports the Times of India.

[lyle]

RickB,

I sort of sped-read that link but will re-read when I have time. Again, pretty fascinating stuff. This, however, jumped off the page:

In their paper the trio pointed out cross-cultural studies that suggest that the “weird” Western mind is the most self-aggrandizing and egotistical on the planet: we are more likely to promote ourselves as individuals versus advancing as a group.

[Old Lurker]

The left just never understands:

By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Monday, January 26, 2015

"If you pay people not to work, they won’t work — and cutting off their payments sends them scurrying back into the job market, according to new research by three academics who looked at the federal government’s extended unemployment benefit program and concluded that it actually deepened, rather than helped, the jobs recession.

Once the benefits ended at the end of 2013, the jobs picture began to rebound, trouncing even some of the rosier predictions for the year, the academics said in a new National Bureau of Economic Research paper released this month.

Nearly one million workers who would have sat it out and taken unemployment benefits instead got jobs in 2014 because their benefits ended, the researchers said. And when knock-on effects are included, “nearly all” of last year’s new jobs can be attributed to the end of the federal program, the researchers, led by Marcus Hagerdorn, an economist at the University of Oslo, said.

“We find that the cut in unemployment benefit duration led to a 2 percent increase in aggregate employment, accounting for nearly all of the remarkable employment growth in the U.S. in 2014,” the researchers wrote.

The findings are certain to be controversial, and they contradict Democrats’ insistence that paying benefits kept people looking for work, while withdrawing benefits would lead them to drop out of the job market altogether.

Instead, the end of extended federal benefits on Dec. 28, 2013, actually increased the labor force participation rate, reversing a years-long trend, the researchers said."

[Joan]

Cecil, You made me stop and think about torture. I usually think about torture in the context of 'saving innocent lives, stopping the bomber, preventing slaughter.' Usually I'd say, yes, I approve. Torture them. And, I always thought the term 'enhanced interrogation' was just stupid (can't think of a better word.) But the way you put it made me stop and think. Of course I don't believe in sticking burning matchsticks under people's fingernails (guess I read that in a book somewhere) or cutting off people's ears, or sticking them with electrical prods, or any of the other forms we've read about. I can remember reading in the Sunday Times of London about the horror in Argentina during the 1970s/1980s -- some of the torture they reported and described was beyond belief--I'd think, there is no way a female's body can be defiled like that, it is physically impossible; and, I'm certain there were equally hideous acts perpetrated upon the men (I just remember this one thing done to the women.) Anyway, I'm glad you wrote what you did, and I'm glad I thought about it a little bit deeper.

I say, if they won't give the information up if I've waterboarded them (or the equivalent) just dump their bodies overboard--from a plane, from a ship, from the top of a volcano. :)

I'd glad you wrote what you did.

[anonamom]

NK--tomatoes don't belong in Texas chili!!!
You can check with Porch, but that was made very clear to me by the person whose recipe I use.

Bacon, beef, garlic, chipotle peppers in adobe sauce, onions, jalepenos, chili powder, salt, pepper, beer.
But NO Tomatoes, and absolutely NO BEANS.

(I do whatever I want, of course, as may you. ;-) )

All this talk of snow and chili is almost making me wish for some winter weather---almost.

[daddy]

Good Morning.

Very depressing listening to Dennis Prager's first Hour today. He has been paying attention to the Arab Media throughout the Arab world, and the new operative belief being pushed is that the Charlie Hebdo murders were actually undertaken by the Mossad, at the direction of Netanyahu, all in an effort to make Islam look bad in the eyes of the Western world.

He comments on how some of this is being apparently acknowledged as fact by some high diplomats even in Turkey (I missed the names).

Very depressing. The only positive I take from it is that it means that on some level many Muslim's at least recognize that the Charlie Hebdo murders were acts of evil, demanding public condemnation.

[sbw]

You asked for it. Click for all its glory:

[narciso]

much of that was French counterinsurgency tactics, that were taught to Argentine army officers,

I was right to suspect if they gilding the lily the pond is full of mold, oddly, that novel was very prescient, even though it was set three years ago,

[lyle]

For all you easterners prepping for the big storm, here's your betters at the NYT telling you all about Skydragon's pernicious fury:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/08/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-snow.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=1

[exdemocrat]

Too many fascinating sub-threads to cope with today - sincere thanks for that. Great linked post, Rick.

[NKvirusedand back]

anon- apologies to Texas Chili afficionados;

sbc-- heh HEH, too funny.

OK-- I am bailing in 75 minutes. It's now coming down in Midtown Manhattan, I can't see the tallest residential apt building in the West hemis, so visibility is less than 800 yards.

[narciso]

if this is a Day after Tomorrow level storm, why did Mayor Bane, let the schools
be open today,

[lyle]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/01/michael-moore-film-festival-not.php

Don't miss this.

[Danube on iPad]

"What is the difference between killing with a drone and a sniper?"

The sniper takes a huge risk.

[NKvirusedand back]

NYC schools open today was fine, light snow until around 200, so 230-300 dismissal no after school worked OK.

[narciso]

seriously what could go wrong with such counsel:

http://sofakingme.com/?vid=umqW7EXs_Fw

[exdemocrat]

And his CIC is compelled to get his hands dirty too, DoT

[James D.]

CH, I got the next post in the Winter's Tale discussion up...

http://writingdreams.net/?p=2873

I'll try to get another one up by the end of the week, too...

[exdemocrat]

Progressives know intellectually that men like kyle exist and fight a losing battle in their own heads with the knowledge that they rely on such men's existence for everything they hold dear.
It deeply threatens their unfounded sense of superiority, though, for others to openly acknowledge this fact.

[Captain Hate]

Thanks James; I really appreciate your instigation in getting me to read that, along with everybody here urging me to get hooked on the Aubrey/Maturin tales (halfway through Desolation Island, btw).

[henry]

NK, our snow has started. Won't be enough to bother with shoveling anything.

[Marlene]

I just returned from errands. It wasn't too bad,the stores were more like a Saturday than a Monday. The sky is still blue and sunny here. Stay safe,my friends down south in NY,CT,MA and NH.

[NKvirusedand back]

exdem@2:46-- that is true beyond disputation. The Libs know that their safe liberal world relies on 'men on THAT wall'... and how they hate those patriots for it. As I said last week, the first time I saw Few Good Men on broadway (Stephen Lang as Col Jessup) I naively thought Jessup was the hero. Not to that drug addled pussy of a playwrite he wasn't.

[Dave (in MA)]

sbw, beautiful. Your work?

[Appalled]

Lyle:

Do you know anyone who wants permanent war with Islam? I don't. Then how about this: Do you think Islam wants permanent war with the West? Sure looks that way to me. If not "permanent," then at least until the West submits. So, who is the instigator in this clash? I know: it's the ignorant proles like ME who just can't grasp the nuances like my betters in the State Dept. and the media.

The one problem with what you write is that you say "Islam" looks to want a war with the West. I'm not sure a lot of folks who are devout members of Islamic faith (you know, like folks in Bosnia or Indonesia or India) want any sort of religious conflict with the West. There is a faction in Islam, that takes nourishment from certain tenants in Islam that does want war, and wants it forever.

[narciso]

well Appalled, that faction controls the shrines, has the ear of the new king, control upwards of 40% of the mosques abroad, from Finchley Park to San Diego

[narciso]

much in the way, that Jon Voight's character, in enemy of the state, had the right argument, that he abused his authority was clear.

[exdemocrat]

Not all members of the Nazi party wanted war, either, but those that did were still something of a problem, no?

[Old Lurker]

"I'm not sure a lot of folks who are devout members of Islamic faith (you know, like folks in Bosnia or Indonesia or India) want any sort of religious conflict with the West"

And we know this because those Muslims loving peace are so outspoken in their rejection of the evil being done in their name?

Got it.

[NKvirusedand back]

Islam is militant, predatory and expansionist, and has been since it began and that will not change, it can only be contained. This too is beyond disputation.

[Old Lurker]

Thought you were going home NK.

[Buckeye]

Snow blower wouldn't start. Got a fairly long driveway. Thought about calling someone but my 71 year old retired cardiologist neighbor was doing his by hand.

Wasn't ready to turn in my man card today so did the same. Figured if the cardiologist thought it wasn't going to kill him, probably wouldn't kill me.

My back is telling me otherwise.

[NKvirusedand back]

400pm Iron Horse out of Grand Central Terminal, you know the place ;)

[exdemocrat]

Not all members of The Cripps or MS 13 want to murder people, ergo no problem there, either.