Geez, Was The Senate Democrats Torture Report Politicized?

In preparing their report on the CIA torture program, did the Senate Democrats present an objective survey or promote their preferred narrative? We get a surprising answer from a surprising source - here we go, from the NY Times:

Did the Torture Report Give the C.I.A. a Bum Rap?

By DAVID COLE  FEB. 20, 2015

WASHINGTON — IN December, when the Senate Intelligence Committee issued its long-awaited report on the C.I.A.’s detention and interrogation program, it seemed to confirm what I and many human-rights advocates had argued for a decade: The C.I.A. had started and run a fundamentally abusive and counterproductive torture program. What’s more, the report found that the C.I.A. had lied repeatedly about the program’s efficacy, and that it had neither disrupted terror plots nor saved lives.

And the switcheroo:

But the principal lesson drawn by countless commentators in the initial news cycle — that torture does not work — was reached before nearly anyone read the full report and responses by the C.I.A. and the Republican members of the committee. The report and responses amount to 828 pages. I’ve now had a chance to read the documents in full. And I suspect the C.I.A. was treated unfairly.

...

The area of dispute concerns the report’s “headlines” — namely, that the C.I.A.’s tactics did not work, and that the agency repeatedly lied about that. The report focuses on 20 prominent instances in which the C.I.A. claimed that information obtained from detainees they subjected to coercive tactics helped identify high-level terrorists and disrupt terrorist plots. The committee concluded that every such claim was a misrepresentation.

When one places the C.I.A.’s accounts of the 20 cases side by side with the committee’s accounts, however, the truth is far from clear. In each instance, the C.I.A. makes a credible case that information it obtained after using coercive tactics played an important role. The C.I.A. says, for example, that 75 percent of the information that led to the capture of Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri, who pleaded guilty to conducting research on explosives for a potential terrorist attack, came from the interrogation of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the 9/11 mastermind, who was waterboarded 183 times. Information from Mr. Mohammed, the C.I.A. claims, also helped it capture several other key Qaeda terrorists, disrupting their efforts to kill innocent civilians.

Similarly, the C.I.A. maintains that intelligence extracted from Abu Zubaydah, the first person subjected to the coercive techniques, contributed significantly to the arrests of multiple terrorists, including Mr. Mohammed; Jose Padilla, an American who planned to set off explosions in high-rise apartment buildings; and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, said to have helped organize the 9/11 attacks. The committee contended that the most useful information from Mr. Zubaydah actually came while the F.B.I. was questioning him, using noncoercive tactics before he was waterboarded. But the C.I.A. points out that Mr. Zubaydah had been subjected to five days of sleep deprivation, a highly coercive and painful tactic, when the F.B.I. interrogated him.

The committee repeatedly asserted that critical information was obtained not from C.I.A. interrogations but from detainees in “the custody of a foreign government.” In detailing how the United States located Osama bin Laden, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, who led the committee, cited seven such instances. But she did not even acknowledge the likelihood that the other governments, to which the C.I.A. was regularly rendering suspects for torture, used techniques even more abusive than the C.I.A.’s. Her account is hardly evidence that torture doesn’t work.

Without the underlying documents, it’s not possible to resolve the competing claims, but many of the C.I.A.’s responses appear plausible on their face. At a minimum it is possible that the C.I.A.’s tactics did help it capture some very dangerous people planning future attacks.

That conclusion in turn casts doubt on the committee’s other main finding — namely, that the C.I.A. repeatedly lied about the program’s efficacy.

Wow. Is it possible the Senate Democrats simply embraced their original talking points rather than presenting a fair report, and that the media lapped it up?

NY Times readers and no one else will be surprised.

 

Comments

[Extraneus]

Porch, once you get to the 2nd page, the URL has a page number. Right now the end of the URL looks like this:

/comments/page/8/#comments

Once you're to the 2nd page, there's a 2 where the 8 is. Just but another 2 in front of that, Typepad will change the 22 to 8 and get you to the last page.

[Extraneus]

Doesn't have to be 22, btw, just a number greater than the last page.

[exdemocrat]

What's the trick, IG?

[Ignatz]

--Y'all are gonna have to be lenient on the noise rules; cause, I'm gonna be pool and golf side during the day and doing the remodeling and construction jobs at night.--

Not to mention the skeet, trap, sporting clays and rifle ranges (last capable of accommodating 50BMG.) :)
And maybe a drag strip/road course.

[Ignatz]

Ext just covered it exdem.

[exdemocrat]

OK, thx

[Threadkiller]

Go to the address bar and change the page number only trick:

If this was the last page when you last checked in:
"http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2015/02/geez-was-the-senate-democrats-torture-report-politicized/comments/page/3/#comments"

Add a "0" after the "3." Internet magic tries to take you to page 30 and when that page isn't found you will be returned to the most recent page.

This trick makes some debates seem less tedious.

[Threadkiller]

Ext nails it.

[exdemocrat]

All I can say about Reid's beat down is that I wish it was me that gave it to him.

OK, glad I got that off my chest - now back to my regularky-scheduled lawerly curmudgeonliness.

[Threadkiller]

Ig, if you highlight the long URL and then hit the right arrow does the page number show?

[Miss Marple]

This is a wonderful trick! It will be helpful on my iPad, and handy when I log on in the morning and there are like 10 pages!

[Jane]

You can use it Iggy with the -> button. It doesn't work on IPAD MM.

[Porchlight]

Thanks! I actually did know about that one. I was just hoping there was one that didn't require scrolling down to go to the second page.

[AliceH]

Someone on twitter just said to me "Let me guess: you're a lawyer".

I'm not whether I or lawyers should be more offended. :/

[centralcal]

I still use Greasemonkey/narcisolator on my PC's (work and home). Always takes me to the last page. Sadly, there are no quick and easy navigation tips for the iPad.

[Miss Marple]

Well, dang about the iPad!

This explains why I rarely post from it, unless I am forced to through circumstances like travel.

[Some Guy]

I was just hoping there was one that didn't require scrolling down to go to the second page.

It's not super easy, but if you substitute for ".html" at the end of the first page url address with "/comments/page/99/#comments" it will jump to the last page of the thread.

[Danube on iPad]

Been a lot of long threads lately. Bummerooski.

[Danube on iPad]

How 'bout that new Browns helmet logo? Now there's a franchise on the way up!

[jimmyk]

Iggy's comment about the length of the thread title suggests he's using an iPad or iPhone where you can't see the /comments/ part of the URL if it's too long. If it's close, you can backspace till the page number shows, then retype whatever you backspaced over.

I suspect there's a way to automate what Some Guy said at 8:02. I have a script that jumps to the bottom of a page, but going to the last page requires something specific to typhus pad.

[henry]

From the dopes that had a "black lives matter" sign in the rotunda today, protestors will disrupt committe vote on RTW. The committee will vote to cut off testimony at 7:30 (8:30 JOM time), the idiots will pitch a fit until police haul them away.

[Strawman Cometh]

"The Justice Dept. today announced that it would not be seeking a civil rights violation indictment against George Zimmerman, the Florida white hispanic assault victim who, in self-defense, shot and killed his assailant, Trayvon Martin." stuff I wished Brett Baier had said.

[Jane]

Henry,

It's gotta be fun to be in Wisconsin lately.

[Jane]

Christian militia takes the war to Islamic State in Syria

For some reason this headline gives me the chills.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11430961/Christian-militia-takes-the-war-to-Islamic-State-in-Syria.html

[henry]

Jane, the unions are putting up a lame sequel and the media is fluffing away like their lives depend on mayhem. The committee just voted to send RTW to the full senate, debate & vote tomorrow.

The left is clearly panicked and is flailing badly on this one -- yes it is fun to see more skulls for the throne!

[narciso]

a really interesting piece, Jib, Volodya's was the only angle we hadn't considered, ironic that the second Malaysian plane also intersected with GRU.

the Byzantine army, re Tom Holland's account, were the first to encounter the forces of militant islam so it's deja vu

[narciso]

One could also go with Mr, Ali Wentworth nee Brandon, for short, in other interesting retainer news, the former mrs,
Orzag, Golodrya is now Yahoo's financial editor,

[Eric in Boise]

"Keep from scrolling through eight pages of DuDa with this one weird trick."

Would it be to much to hope that a future release of ThaiPad actually as a "last page" button?

Yeah, I craic me up.

[Beasts of England]

A tip of the chef's toque to the two finalists on MasterChef Junior. One finalist presented a lamb rib chop with a white asparagus purée, the other plated a beef cheek ravioli. I wish I had taste-a-vision...

[Jack is Back!]

No tricks if on iPad. Try it. Doesn't work or on iPhone either.

Just keep going forward.

[Threadkiller]

Magpie Kelly still gone?

She must be avoiding having to read the viewer emails about her treatment of Giuliani.

Or, she is getting a boob job

[Beasts of England]

The Italian Americans now showing on PBS. Hey, it's got Scalia on it - it's gotta be good. What sound does a Pirelli make when it goes flat?

[Ignatz]

--Ig, if you highlight the long URL and then hit the right arrow does the page number show?--

Nope.

--Iggy's comment about the length of the thread title suggests he's using an iPad or iPhone where you can't see the /comments/ part of the URL if it's too long.--

Nope. Windows PC junk. Probably Firefox's worthless toolbar all cluttered up with other nonWindows junk.

[Eric in Boise]

the other plated a beef cheek

So that's what you call it now.

Kids these days :)

[Ignatz]

--Or, she is getting a boob job...--

Soooo, anyone know when she's back on the air?

[Threadkiller]

If you bookmark page 2 on your ipad, can't you edit the url from the bookmark?

[DrJ]

Iggy,

Probably Firefox's worthless toolbar all cluttered up with other nonWindows junk.

Click on the address bar, and hit the "end" key. Most keyboards have that, and it takes you to the end of a long URL. Then you can edit as you please.

[Threadkiller]

For that matter, you could edit a bookmarked url to page 99. It should go to the last page every time you select the bookmark.

[henry]

Aha, nicely done! The Senate committee shut down RTW testimony and voted early -- before the union's planned disruption could start. Thus no vids for the morning news. Also floating around on Twitter, a former Dem Lt Gov candidate quoted Mike Tyson to the assembled goons on the Capitol steps "everybody has a plan, until I punch them in the face." big talk, futility instead of action.

[Threadkiller]

Ig, I have used the other trick to start at the bottom comment and refresh from there when I click the time stamp of that comment.

When I do that, it changes the url to an address based on the comment, not the page. The resulting address is 50miles long with no page number component.

Is that what is happening?

[jimmyk]

Windows PC junk.

Shouldn't be a problem in Windows/Firefox. Don't you have the URL in a box at the top (just under the tabs)? You should be able to click in there, then hit 'end' to get to the page number part of the URL.

[narciso]

so what else is going on:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/24/iran-pursuing-nukes-in-underground-complex-despite-talks-with-west-claims/

[Beasts of England]

What's the beauty of being a Hungarian, Italian, English, Comanche mutt? I get to identify with Attila the Hun, Enzo Ferrari, James Bond and Quanah Parker.

That's why my wallet is the one that says 'Bad Mother Fucker'.

[clarice]

About the island--David Kahane who's working in a rented cottage on the coast off Ireland says we ought to watch "The Wicker Man" before buying.

[Stephanie]

beasts, how's the weather over that way? Saw the video of the trucks sliding downhill..

[narciso]

the original with Edward Woodward, or the remake with Nicholas Cage?

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-top-us-partner-in-the-middle-east-has-a-history-of-supporting-an-al-qaeda-affiliate-2015-2

[Rick Ballard]

Henry,

The union goons should have paid attention when the SkullBrite truck made a special delivery of conditioner and polish this morning.

The vote in the Chicago mayor race is interesting. Only 25% of the precincts remaining and Emanuel is at 45%.

[daddy]

"Axelrod did say that faulty intelligence allowed ISIS to grow out of control."

Has the President acknowledged that ISIS has grown out of control? I haven't heard that.

Has the President acknowledged that ISIS is therefore no longer "JV"? I haven't heard him walk that back.

Has the President identified who specifically in the Intel Community gave him that "faulty Intelligence"? And replaced him? I haven't heard him announce that.

How do you know "Faulty Intelligence" was responsible for allowing ISIS to grow out of control if you were not working for the President when that fact came out? Who did you hear it from specifically? If the President has not acknowledged it, and you were not working for him at the time, why should we believe you?

Do you know of any other President who was mislead by "Faulty Intelligence" re: The Middle East?

[rich@gmu]

evening beasts ...

[Rick Ballard]

Emanuel would have to take 60% of the votes remaining to be counted. He can't do it.

[Miss Marple]

daddy,

I think you should apply to Fox News when you retire from your flying days. You could be a consultant who simply gives them some intelligent questions to ask.

I don't think Martha McCallum did very well interviewing Axelrod this morning. Your questions would have gotten some interesting responses from that creep.

[narciso]

there were some classmate I knew who were Canadiansof Ukrainian polish, argentine of Italian, Spanish and Yugoslav, Ecuadorians
of Spanish and dutch.

[henry]

Rick, I didn't know the Chicago vote was today... no wonder the protest crowd was so light, the bus people had other places to be.

What happens if Rahm is under 50%?

[rich@gmu]

would he win in the run off?

[Jim Miller]

What infuriates me about Obama's Keystone XL veto is that he claims still not to have made up his mind on the merits, that he was just issuing the veto because of "process" considerations. (The original application was in 2008,)

So I dedicated an old pop song to him. (And I'll apologize to our Canadian friends, once more.)

[daddy]

Hmm, should we take that as an admission by Axelrod that Barry lied when he repeated faulty intelligence and called IS a JV outfit?
Isn't that precisely the same line of logic we've heard repeated ad nauseum about W for about 12 years now?

I see that as usual Iggy beat me to the punch, and said it better, too:)

[Stephanie]

If I missed the posting of the CNN headline, sorry for the repost.

http://viral.buzz/cnn-headline-proves-hell-just-froze-over/

[rich@gmu]

Posted by: clarice | February 24, 2015 at 09:27 PM -

yikes!

[DrJ]

I missed Kerry's Opinion piece in the WSJ the other day, but it prompted this wonderful letter. It is long.

As a former corporate speech writer, I chuckled at this seeming parody of a speech sprinkled with hollow buzzwords and action phrases. The more I read it, the funnier it gets. If one has nothing real to offer, use the important words: “global conversation,” “best practices,” “global partnership,” “proactive,” “concrete alternatives,” “empowering leaders,” “transform the environments,” “building alternatives,” “identify the zones of greatest vulnerability,” “tailor our efforts,” “target our resources,” “envision a future,” “positive progress,” “funnel more resources, creative ideas and energy,” “catalyze a global effort,” “but let me be clear,” “send a clear signal,” “we will not cower,” “we will prevail” and “we charge forward.”

I’m surprised he didn’t conclude by saying, “At the end of the day. . . .”

Gerard Ingenthron
Naples, Fla.

This could be a template for blowhards everywhere.

[narciso]

someone said something along those words once:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

[Ignatz]

So that 'end' key works for something besides Word docs?
Who knew?

Time for Justified.

[rich@gmu]

Jim-

good theme music, but where did you dig that one up.

[jimmyk]

So that 'end' key works for something besides Word docs?

It also should take you to the bottom of the page if you first click on any (non-hyperlinked) spot on the page.

[narciso]

some of history's bloody rhyming:

http://history-world.org/islam11.htm

[jimmyk]

DrJ, did they print that letter? That's great, and it would apply as well to any of Barry's speeches. I will distribute it to students. I remember last year having to convince some students not to use "At the end of the day" in their papers. They insisted there was nothing wrong with it.

[narciso]

steyer and buffett and soros were leaning on him so hard, I'm surprised he didn't fall through the table,

[DrJ]

jimmyk,

The letter was in today's dead-tree edition of the WSJ.

[rich@gmu]

Posted by: narciso | February 24, 2015 at 10:08 PM-

on the keystone veto?

[Jim Miller]

rich - I have been thinking about that song for Obama for a few months now.

But it just now occurred to me that it would be easy to change the lyrics to make them even more appropriate.

[narciso]

I used the third name to make it plain, but yes Zaphod,

[Jim Miller]

Muscians here can correct me, but the song doesn't strike me as a hard one to do, with lyrics revised for Obama.

(daddy may find the post just below it more interesting, even with the weird twist I put in, at the very end.)

[clarice]

Dr J that article gave me a great idea. Thanks

[daddy]

Watching the BBC on the hotel TV. They are harping on a new Climate Warming Story, telling us that the Sea Level along the Northeast Coast of the US rose something like 128 millimeters between 2009 and 2011. They are playing it up as a consequence of the rise in Greenhouse gas put into the atmosphere by humans. The Chinese scientist being interviewed says something like it had not happened to this degree for at least 850 years previously, and that the models tell them that this will continue over the 21st Century.

Haven't read the story yet, but the BBC Newsreader seems to be enjoying relating it. If it hasn't hit your TV yet, stand by.

[narciso]

down the rabbit hole

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/02/swedens-multicultural-expert-on-islamophobia-joins-isis-in-syria/

[Miss Marple]

daddy,

Do they ever consider the fault lines that run along the northeast coast (Palisades, N.J. is on the edge of one.) It could be that the land is slightly sinking, rather than the sea rising.

That difference might be indicative of a coming period of tectonic activity.

[rich@gmu]

daddy-

have they covered the ipcc creep resigning yet?

[narciso]

this story has been bubbling up today, well besides the Journolist byline, the involvement of two Soros fronts, and the smell of the Levick Wurlitzer, I see no reason to doubt it:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/24/secret-black-site-interrogation-center-in-chicago-run-by-police/

[Sue]

The jury found Eddie Ray Routh guilty of capital murder. Life in prison without parole.

[Sue]

In the Chris Kyle/Chad Littlefield trial.

[Miss Marple]

Well, despite the BBC discussion, I am freezing.

So I am heading to bed with lots of blankets.

Nytol!

[narciso]

skydragon's breath, is always scorching the ocean, as per Bialystok rules, the UN will not investigate Pachauri, because what's the term, dreu di seignour?

[JohnH]

You can create "bookmarklets" for both the ipad and iphone. I have one that jumps to the end of the current page and one that jumps to the last page of the current thread. I keep them at the top of my bookmarkers. Moving around in JOM becomes simple. The bookmarklets contain java scripts that execute when you select them. ie. select bookmarks, select $JOM. I'm not sure I can post the whole script here easily but my $JOM bookmarklet looks like:

javascript:%20var%20url%20=%20window.location.href;%20%20url%20=%20url.replace(/%5C.html/,%20'/comments/page/100/');%20url%20=%20url.replace(/page%5C/%5Cd+/,%20'page/100');%20window.location=url;%20avatars%20=%20document.evaluate(%22//div%5B@class='comment-avatar'%5D%22,%20document,%20null,%20XPathResult.UNORDERED_NODE_SNAPSHOT_TYPE,%20null);%20%20for%20(%20var%20i%20=%200;%20i%20%3C%20avatars.snapshotLength;%20i++)%20%7B%20%20%20%20avatar%20=%20avatars.snapshotItem(i);%20%20%20%20avatar.innerHTML%20=%20'';%20%20%7D%20%20comments%20=%20document.evaluate(%22//div%5B@class='comment-content'%5D%22,%20document,%20null,%20XPathResult.UNORDERED_NODE_SNAPSHOT_TYPE,%20null);%20%20for%20(%20var%20i%20=%200;%20i%20%3C%20comments.snapshotLength;%20i++)%20%7B%20%20%20%20comment%20=%20comments.snapshotItem(i);%20%20%20%20comment.style.marginLeft%20=%20'0px';%20%20%7D

Save a bookmark, select the above string, edit the bookmark and paste the above where the URL would go. Not as easy as a dedicated down button but beats the pants off of scrolling.

The end of page code:

javascript:scroll(0,document.getElementsByTagName('body')%5B0%5D.scrollHeight);

[DrJ]

Chicago news:

Chicago Mayor Forced Into Runoff

Mayor Rahm Emanuel fell short of a majority needed to win re-election here Tuesday as voters dealt a set back to the nationally known politician who will now face an April runoff.

The Ecommunist gave him a very favorable column on Friday.

[Dublindave]

THE GOP CAPITULATES(AGAIN!)

It's in the nature of your basic righty to run away from a fight. It's like their genetically programmed to be softer than Democrats.
The Republican is weak.He has no character.He is timid and needy.He runs away when he should stand and fight. The Republican's wife does not love him because he is weak.When the Republican makes love to his wife she pictures him being a Democrat. She pictures a winner because it is more satisfying.The Republicans children smile when they see their daddy but secretly they are ashamed of his ideology of weakness. They secretly wish their father were a Democrat.

[Dublindave]

On the bright side looks like Democrats have control of the senate again.

[rich@gmu]

narciso-

big surprise they'd look the other way.

[Frau Meerrettich]

From the wayback machine:

“At a September 2007 public hearing in Chicago, Senator Obama submitted a statement that he ‘strongly requested’ the FCC ‘put out any changes that they intend to vote on in a new notice of proposed rulemaking,’” Chaffetz wrote.

A month after his September 2007 statement, Sen. Obama submitted a letter to then-FCC Chairman Kevin Martin arguing that the “proposed timeline and process” used by the agency to adopt rules are “irresponsible,” noting that while a specific proposal “may pass the muster of a federal court, Congress and the public have the right to review any specific proposal and decide whether or not it constitutes sound policy.”

[narciso]

they really think, their word is the only thing that matters:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/02/24/wapos-tumulty-flails-in-attempt-to-defend-hit-job-on-jeb-bushs-wife/

[daddy]

Haven't seen any mention of IPCC's Sexual molester Pachauri resigning. But I have just now turned on CNN and Amonpour us doing a segment called "Why Do People Question Science."

She is playing people saying they doubt vaccines, then playing Walker not responding about Evolution. And some US congressman saying"The Cliate Has Always Changed."

Now she has on Simon Singh of Britain saying politicians should go to the Scientists to get the best evidence from them, so the entire show is a very thinly veiled attack on Republican's and Conservatives and Walker in particular. Amonpour is loving trashing Republicans. She is playing up a National Geographic story about people not believing Science.

No mention whatever so far about sexual molester Pachauri.

Now Amonpour is asking "what is the danger of these false beliefs." Singh is saying Climate Change will effect our children and grandchildren, and says he is depressed that some AGW promoter is no longer in the Brit Governor to influence politicians.

Now Amonpour is going after Soon, saying he was payed by Oil companies to fight against the AGW meme.

Amonpour says "it is a question of Life and Death."

Singh replies "Absolutely.")

Segment ends with no mention of Sexual Molester Pachauri.

Amnpour then immediately turns to a new Science Report showing how the Gerbil was the culprit of the Black Plague, not the Black Rat.

Can't make this stuff up. Joseph Goebbels could have used a gal like Amonpour.

[narciso]

this seems to be in concert with this month's National Geographic, the war on science or some such,

[rich@gmu]

saw the new issue of the NatGeo when I was in line at the grocery store ... same ole', same ole'.

link for anyone so inclined: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

[narciso]

Achenbach he used to be less of a jerk at my old fishwrap's sunday edition,

[Danube on iPad]

Up on Orange Avenue about fifteen minutes ago, about a half block from McP's I was approached by a young reporterette from the local NBC outlet who told me about the Routh verdict and asked if she could interview me. Sure. How did I feel? Like the jury got it right. She said she had just come from McP's and couldn't find anyone there who would take the opposite view. I told her I thought she was looking in the wrong town. The cameraman laughed out loud.

News at 11.

[Some Guy]

You'd think all these clowns who use terms like "Science Deniers" and other nonsense, could actually mount an argument without a complete reliance on logical fallacies.

Why if you can 'easily win' on the merits, would you have to rely exclusively on logical fallacies?

Oh wait, I guess that question answers itself.

[rich@gmu]

a pull quote to chew on

>>>We live in an age when all manner of scientific knowledge—from the safety of fluoride and vaccines to the reality of climate change—faces organized and often furious opposition. Empowered by their own sources of information and their own interpretations of research, doubters have declared war on the consensus of experts. <<<

the anti-vaccine hysteria was ginned up by a lawyer and a British medical journal with a helpful assist from Hollywood. Was it ever a major concern? Vaccine rates are still well over 90+%.

the safety of fluoride ... good grief the example they give is Portland. It has a studied weirdness all its own. So weird it is a play and tv show.

The moon landings being faked started with this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Kaysing
and picked up by people around him after his death. Unsurprising that that event would be questioned regardless of any evidence produced.

and since when is science only consensus ... continental drift and plate tectonics weren't consensus but they revolutionized geology in just a few decades.

[narciso]

Bill Bratton has gone full kirk lazarus, you never go there,

[CR]

JohnH's instructions above worked for me, but I am also able to use the page number trick on my iPad once I am past the first page of a thread. Just tap the address bar to highlight it and then press down and to the right of the address bar until the page number comes into view. You can then insert the additional number (change 3 to 30) in the proper place and hit return to go to the end of a thread.

[narciso]

we're shocked they would go there:

http://news.yahoo.com/argentine-government-accuses-ex-spy-smuggling-203044623.html

[rich@gmu]

Posted by: Danube on iPad | February 25, 2015 at 12:07 AM-

I take it the reporterette isn't a local.

[rich@gmu]

>>>It’s very clear, however, that organizations funded in part by the fossil fuel industry have deliberately tried to undermine the public’s understanding of the scientific consensus by promoting a few skeptics.<<<

Good thing we have Big Environment to be on the lookout for Big Oil.