A Strange Time For Christians

I will guess that the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage, while hardly a surprise, was not the best news for earnest Christians. This is from the Times:

The dramatic shift in public opinion [on gay marriage], and now in the nation’s laws, has left evangelical Protestants, who make up about a quarter of the American population, in an uncomfortable position. Out of step with the broader society, and often derided as discriminatory or hateful, many are feeling under siege as they try to live out their understanding of biblical teachings, and worry that a changing legal landscape on gay rights will inevitably lead to constraints on religious freedom.

No kidding. Too many Christians vote for Republicans so progressives will double down on labeling them as bigots and homophobic haters.

On the other hand, the scene in the Charleston courtroom at the bond hearing for Dylann Roof was a stunning display of Christian love, forgiveness and witness. Here is Times coverage and a recent description (in the context of taking down the Confederate flag):

And, in the country’s most churchgoing region, Christianity played a potent role. White worshipers described themselves as pained by guilt and moved beyond measure after watching relatives of the nine victims in Charleston deliver an unexpected message, distilling the essence of Christianity at a bond hearing for the suspect: We forgive.

Although theology is far outside my operating area, my thought is this: if a devout Christian florist or baker is asked to work for a gay wedding, maybe he (or she) could say something like "That is contrary to my religious beliefs and I hope you can respect my desire to refuse, but if you insist then I forgive you and will pray that God grant both of us a greater understanding of his message and his love". That would be a more elaborate version of "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

And just to complicate the issue - my impression is that celibate homosexuals are not considered to be sinners (I also glean this from the same Times article linked earlier). Now, people get married for all sorts of reasons, such as creating clarity for legal, insurance, real estate and adoptive issues. And I daresay that few in the homosexual community are getting married because they had forsworn pre-marital sex. So (this is a logical leap, but hardly Beamonesque), unless there is a concern that the newlyweds will have sex during the ceremony, any sinning is entirely hypothetical and not truly contingent upon the wedding ceremony which might will be happening for other reasons. In which case, getting married is not, in itself, sinful, nor is contributing to it.

OK, hmmm...

Comments

[maryrose]

Beamonesque
I am old enough to remember that jump
Uno

[narciso]

no, TM it is the practices, not the status that is the problem,

[henry]

Well, Sharia will make things crystal clear as far as what's allowed. That' appears to be the subtext.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Using this logic, a guy isn't really sinning until he shoots somebody so if he only tells me he's going to shoot someone once I leave, I'm free to give him a shotgun and walk away.
Inapt analogy?

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

Four new posts in the past four hours . . . ?

Stop, you're killin' me. I'm *never* going to catch up at this rate.

[Threadkiller]

Let's ask an Imam, instead.

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

Laura W (as in "Wodehouse")

Happy Belated Birthday (three days ago)

It is nice to see you here again. Your comments are always a pleasure to read. You're one of my faves amongst the lurkers, so how do we convince you to post more than just occasionally?

(re-post from an old, overtaken thread)

[narciso]

I think is a more obvious guide:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=NIV

however this comprises all sin,

[narciso]

I think is a more obvious guide:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=NIV

however this comprises all sin,

[narciso]

sorry about the repeat:

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

How does someone, who lives under that guide narciso, hold his nose to vote for the "best candidate?"

[Cecil Turner]

First looking into this, I was surprised wedding photos could be compelled by anti-discrimination law (and apparently it's a state thing, so who knows where it goes). But I'd highlight Roberts's dissent, especially:

Hard questions arise when people of faith exercise religion in ways that may be seen to conflict with the new right to same-sex marriage—when, for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex married couples. Indeed, the Solicitor General candidly acknowledged that the tax exemptions of some religious institutions would be in question if they opposed same-sex marriage. See Tr. of Oral Arg. on Question 1, at 36–38. There is little doubt that these and similar questions will soon be before this Court. Unfortunately, people of faith can take no comfort in the treatment they receive from the majority today.

And I'd note the cases Roberts envisions will not be two poor gay lovers forced to live in sin, but some religious person forced to participate in a process he finds distasteful. And, as a purely political matter, there are likely to be a lot more irritated bible thumpers than annoyed gay wedding planners.

I think Jane has it right: this decision is probably a net negative for gay people.

[daddy]

On the escapee's using pepper to throw the dogs off the scent, I think it depends on what exactly was in the Prison pepper shakers:

A favorite Charlie Chaplin Scene from "Modern Times".

[daddy]

many are feeling under siege as they try to live out their understanding of biblical teachings, and worry that a changing legal landscape on gay rights will inevitably lead to constraints on religious freedom.

What we have here is .. failure to Excommunicate

[daddy]

no, TM it is the practices, not the status that is the problem,

I think St Jimmy Carter told us something different:

"I've looked on many women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. God knows I will do this and forgives me."

[daddy]

Does anyone think it odd that the police announce, in their news conference, that pepper diverted the dogs?

Sadly Miss Marple, that strikes me as no crazier than our Military Intelligence General 2 weeks ago telling us how his Anti-terrorism Team identified and bombed an ISIS Headquarters building in Syria, by analyzing some ISIS fighter's selfie photos that the guy stupidly posted on the Internet.

[Jim Miller]

In answer to my own question: If the BBC's Katty Kay is to be believed, "Grexit" rhymes with "exit". (And the BBC is usually righta about things like that,)

(Which I find mildly disappointing because it deemphasizes the Greek part.)

For those wondering about the context, she was interviewing Austan Goolsbee, He thinks a Grexit is inevitable.

[narciso]

that's what I thought too, Jim Miller,

from last night's thread, Asimov was the one that really tried to tackle the ethics of artificial intelligence, with mixed results,

[henry]

Narciso, ethics in AI? No more achievable than ethics in hacking. Humans are involved, human ethics are violated constantly, even where ethics are followed mistakes are made.

[Jim Miller]

daddy - I haven't given up hope that that story was a cover for how we really found out his location.

In other words, I hope the general was lying to us.

What are the odds against the hopeful theory? Maybe 20-1. But the probability is not zero.

[Jack is Back!]

I can't wait for Pope Francis to come to America and put the crowning touch on our passage to serfdom.

[pagar]

I just find it really strange that NBC doesn't have anyone in the whole company that knows that legal Immigrants are 100 % different from illegal immigrants. Looks to me like Donald Trump is getting in a better position to protect America every day.

[Old Lurker]

Hey Narc. I have read only a few DeMilles over the years, and enjoyed them. If I were to go after them in my OCD manner this summer, where would you suggest I start?

[maryrose]

I am growing weary about so many complaints. ts about Pope Francis
We can't control him
He is impervious to criticism

[Jane]

“You’ve got nine lawyers, they are all from Harvard or Yale—there are no Protestants on the court, there are no Evangelicals on the court,” Sen. Ted Cruz said. “The elites on the court look at much of this country as flyover country, they think that our views are simply parochial and don’t deserve to be respected.”

https://www.facebook.com/TheHill?fref=nf

It's supposed to be about the law, not politics. But that certainly seems to have changed.

[narciso]

they say Plum Island was the first in the series, but I read Lion's Game first, which gave a better perspective on the candidate,

[maryrose]

Jane
OReilly with Charles K tonight was excellent
He said Kennedy based his gay rights decision on emotion rather than the Constitution

[narciso]

character I mean,

[Miss Marple]

TM,

In the Catholic Church there is a prohibition for cooperating in sin or facilitating sin.

I understand your effort to give a lifeline to bakers and florists, but for Catholics that won't work.

My theory is that flowers and wedding cakes will henceforth be pick-up only, no toppers on cakes and no sayings or names in icing on said cake. Flowers the same. Pick them up at the florist and place them yourself.

That is what I would do if I ran one of these establishments. I would make a sign that said the new rules were due to labor shortages.

[Rick Ballard]

"Goolsbee, He thinks a Grexit is inevitable."

He didn't describe the procedure for throwing Stavros off the Fritzwagon though, did he? Cuz EUtopia is a Hotel California design. It's not just "you can check out but you can never leave", it's "sorry, there is no provision for either checking out or leaving".

It was thought to be totally unnecessary, given the extraordinary intelligence of the designers of EUtopia and the fact that Brussels is just chock full of credentialed morons willing to manage the smallest detail of everyone's existence.

[Old Lurker]

Maryrose, don't take it personally. But if the Pope wants to throw his weight into issues he knows little about but which are dividing men along battle lines, then he deserves and should get the same treatment we give our other leaders. If you Catholics don't speak up when your leaders stray, then nothing will change ever in your church either, then your church will become as irrelevant as my Episcopal Church is now.

[Jane]

Maryrose,

Most nights you could not pay me to watch O'Reilly (or Hannity). So what did he say?

[Jack is Back!]

maryrose,

I am Catholic. I am the vice chairman of our pastoral council and on an advisory board for our diocese and I am incensed that we Benedict was forced out to bring in this Marxist and confused Jesuit. He is a disaster for the church and it wil soon become evident when the money dries up.

YMMV.

[Jack is Back!]

narc,

Left you a comment on DeMille's latest on the other thread. Currently living a mile down the road from it all:)

[Miss Marple]

Benedict brought me into the Church.

Pope Francis is doing everything he can to drive me out.

I believe we can voice our opposition. Lord knows he is on my Twitter feed about 20 times a day ordering me to do stuff. Not very pastoral, if you ask me.

[Jim Miller]

Rick - No, Goolsbee didn't say how Grexit could happen.

But he seemed rather cheerful about the prospect.

(One interesting detail I hadn't known until recently: Sanctions against, for instance, Russia require unanimous agreement of all member nations, so Greece has some potential leverage there.)

[meh.]

Humans are really bad at Angel stuff.
Not very remembering original intent.

You should have been more patient, and tended to sensible purposes.

If you are the relief in this damned War, I am going to lodge a complaint.

[narciso]

so if the banks have unwound most of their greek debt, what's their expusure, and secondly who was the mark that ended up with the remainder

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

The Unlikely Turning Point in the Same Sex Marriage Battle
By Jack Cashill

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/06/the_unlikely_turning_point_in_the_same_sex_marriage_battle.html

[narciso]

so you're near Gin Lane,?

[Rick Ballard]

"who was the mark that ended up with the remainder"

US taxpayers will pickup a good portion of the IMF portion of the ticket for Stavros' Wild Ride. EUtopian tax dodgers will evade payment for the ECB portion, hedge funds holding nifty Greek bonds will take a haircut and some EUtopian banks also take a hit.

The Greeks, like the Cypriots and soon the Ukrainians will be pounded the worst. They have definitely earned a savage beating and they can't avoid taking one.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/7/71/729151/donald-trump-defends-immigration-remarks-protesters-call-him-racist

I sure hope this Bush doesn't play spoiler like his dad did in '92.

[daddy]

Religious question for our Catholics (and just looking for clarity, not trying to cause a fight of any sort)

If I understand what was the tipping point that caused Martin Luther to bail out, it was the sale of indulgences. As I understand it, in simplistic probably incorrect terms, the Church believes that Jesus's death sacrifice filled the Church coffers with limitless redemption for sin. The Church could then dispense that redemption to sinners, but unfortunately during the Crusades it turned into a sort of secular monetary racket, where members of the Church became merchants, basically selling bits of Jesus's redemption as sort of "Get out of Hell free" coupons, prior to actual sin being committed.

Apologies if I've completely bastardized that. My question, since the Church no longer sells such indulgences, does the Church still think they have the equivalent of such coffers full of redemption that can be righteously dispensed, and if so was, it just the practice of selling the things that was corrupt?

Please excuse if my misunderstanding comes across as grossly offensive---not my intent at all.

On a different point, up here we still have a lot of Russian orthodox Churches, which makes sense since we used to be Russian territory. From what I can tell they seem to be doing well "seats in the congregation-wise", and I wonder if this Pope continues to act in manners that offend individuals and drive folks out like OL says the Episcopalian Churches have done, will Churches like the Russian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church start picking up tons of stragglers?

[maryrose]

The Pope is considered a most holy and prayerful man at least I was brought up to believe that
Maybe I am naive but I just don't see one mans opinion affecting the debate that much
The pastoral bishops and priests have the day to day power
Listen to Father Jonathan Morris He provides a great message
I will.not use the scorn I have for the Dems against the Pope
MM your basic beliefs remain true in the faith what the Pope says on social issues shouldn't interfere with that
Please let me know if I am over stepping here
I do not want to offend anyone on this matter

[Jack is Back!]

narc,

I am 400 yards from Gin Lane. Which means I only have to replace my AC every 10 years instead of every 5 years:)

[Jim Miller]

daddy - There's a more recent link to Russian history in the Puget Sound area: a small group of Russian Baptist churches.

(I assume they came here as part of the deal that enabled so many Russian Jews to escape the Soviet Union.)

[narciso]

that is certainly part of it, daddy, but it's more in the quarrel with the church as middleman, it seems

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htmit seems

[maryrose]

daddy
It is SRO at the Romanian Orthodox Church 2 doors down from me
Yes in answer to both your questions
You can't sell indulgences
Also many old prayer books still state saying a certain number of prayers a certain number of times could lop off some purgatory years
I myself believe purgatory time is what we are living through right now

[Miss Marple]

daddy,

The Church offers Christ's forgiveness, not the Church''s. The priest in the confessional acts on behalf of Christ. The belief in this comes from John 20: 22-23, Christ speaking to the disciples:

…22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

GOD has a limitless well of forgiveness for those who confess and repent.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

--...but some religious person forced to participate in a process he finds distasteful...--

It's not so much a matter of distaste as it is being presented with the choice of criminal or civil penalty for obeying the holy ordinances of God or being coerced into denying them.

--"That is contrary to my religious beliefs and I hope you can respect my desire to refuse, but if you insist then I forgive you and will pray that God grant both of us a greater understanding of his message and his love".--

It's not a matter of forgiveness; Peter was forgiven for denying Christ three times in one night. It's a matter of being coerced into denying the teachings of God and our own consciences; the very issue which led to the Pilgrims coming here in the first place and supposedly one of the founding principles of the country...unlike, say, the "right" of Jerry to wear a garter and bend over for Bob on their "wedding" night.

Tony Kennedy and Harry Blackmun deserve their own special memorial, along with Judge Taney and Henry Billings Brown, dedicated to remarkable justices who most contributed to undoing our founding principles and should have been run out of town tarred and feathered.

[Jack is Back!]

daddy,

I am not into the trivial history of the church so much as I am into its purpose and mission. I believe in the spirituality of our Eucharistic celebration or Mass to some. I pray and I adore.

The pope is only a figurehead for me. There is only one Christ, my Lord and Savior that I recognize. I only recoginize the Pope as an arbiter of faith and sprituality. Nothing else is pithy involvement in man's affairs and he should just stay out of it.

This Pope is a disaster to me but YMMV. Maryrose, I do pray he wil be recognize some day he is down the wrong path.

[narciso]

brown doesn't get the proper level of vilification, I think the three quarter century ushered by Plessy, was fatal to our constitutional republic,

[jorod]

Put that in your rectum and smoke it.

[Miss Marple]

Maryrose,

I am sorry if my words sound harsh. I am not used to having a Pope who injects himself into something like the climate debate.

I do not expect him to act like a conservative Republican, but that climate encyclical was wrong on so many fronts that it astounds me.

I also fear that leftist cardinals are machinating behind the scenes, because he hasn't a good command of other languages.

Part of this is how Benedict left, because, like Jack, I suspicion he was forced out. That may not be true, but it gives me the willies that he's almost a virtual prisoner in that house in the Vatican Gardens.

well, our times are what God sent us. Griping doesn't do any good, so until another, worse thing happens, I will keep my thoughts a little more reserved.

Alas, I must say, however, that I am not looking forward to his visit.

[maryrose]

JOB
Again I take the long view
Pope Francis will not be around forever
We have been lucky
Most of our lives we have experienced some extraordinary saint like pontiffs n

Pope Benedicteft for health though I have never known a of a pope not go the whole term of his life
Remember the one who only lasted a few weeks

I never knew a Pope to not just die in office however

[daddy]

Jim Miller,

I know many of the Alaskan Russian Church flock had a falling out with the official Russian Church many centuries back, leading to their banishment and exodus to Siberia and Alaska. Interesting history. I recently finished 1688 (A Global History) and what was done to the "Old Believers" in Russia was horrific.

I did see somewhere the news that Putin has apparently taken advantage of the Supreme's legalizing Gay Marriage to again proclaim that America is Godless.

[maryrose]

Should be JIB

[Miss Marple]

Steel rebar fallsto record low. Speculation on Twitter is the collapse of China.

[Jack is Back!]

Off to bed. Early rise tomorrow. The dogs love the beach here and get iup at sunrise and that is like 5:30.

Maryrose, I am convinced Benedict was forced out by a cabal of marxist Cardinals resulting in the guy you see know. Don't know how they did it but I will wait for Dan Brown to tell me:)

[Miss Marple]

daddy,

How would you prove Putin wrong?

[Miss Marple]

Hannity arriving on my TV means I have to turn off Fox and go to bed with a book.

Nytol.

[maryrose]

MM
Thank you for your words
Your quote was both timely and spot on
You inspire me to be a better catholic because of your strong faith
JIB
You seem to be a strong faith filled person setting a wonderful example for Frederick
It is the human side of Pope Francis which leads him to embrace the troubles of the world
As Christs representative we need to pray for him as he leads us each day to become our best selves
Because religious do not have our everyday worries of survival they can appear clueless at times
However some of my most dependable friends in my life growing up have been nuns

[daddy]

Thanks, Maryrose, Jack, Miss M, and others for your answers.

Narciso, please relink your 09:41 link if possible, as it won't open for me.

Interesting times we live in, no?

BTW, I won't transcribe, but Mark Levin's first hour today was really eye-opening and depressing. Between him and VDH I'd be hard pressed to pick who's more appalled at the direction of our Republic.

Up here all Fireworks have been banned in the State for 4th of July due to our WildFire problems, so best of luck Jim and MannyT combatting the fires down in your State.

My own personal theory is that "Dog Walks Made Us Human," so off now to do research...

[maryrose]

I am grateful for his visit because of the opportunity for young people to see him and be inspired in their catholic faith
The downside is that Obama will try to inflict himself into the picture and politicize it

[narciso]

here you go, daddy

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

[maryrose]

Inject himself is probably better grammatically

[squaredance]

i really rather doubt that there has been this sea change of opinion--it is yet another Left wing lie, borne of misleading and intimidating those polled.
The truth will out eventually, and it will not help the gays much. That is the crux of the matter: have they underestimated the nation, or are they right to see us as supine, mindless idiots?

I think the real percentage would be shockingly against the gays. We will see next year.

If it is true that "opinion has shifted", if the American people can be so easily manipulated or intimidated, or their understanding of the world is so poor, then there is not much to "save" anyway. Best let it crash and build up from the ruins. Most surely it will all come tumbling down if not corrected as the "world" they have created is thoroughly untethered from reality.

One hopes that they have finally overreached, but those hopes have been crushed before.

Christianity has withstood much worse enemies than the Democrat Party, and will long outlast it, but for the USA it may be another story.

Time will tell. Let us hope that the rest of us are not so easily cowed.

Remember that it does not stop with Christians, they just are a major obstacle. Once they are removed the evil really starts, and it will rollover all the Useful Idiots as torrents of fire.

This is a certainty and not a conjecture: we know this well form the history of the last century.

If the American people give themselves up to thism then they deserve what they get.

[narciso]

this is why I find the whole obsession with birth certificates, mistaken:

[maryrose]

Young people have great tolerance for the gay life style and are what drives this new movement
It came on fast and I think most people are still adjusting to it
I firmly believe the pendulum always swings back
We have gone as far Left S we can and the movement should start back toward the center
As long as we keep our wits about us we can triumph in the next election
I cherish the small statewide victories we have had
Forcing states to speed up their logical process in letting the people have their say in the gay marriage debate only impairs acceptance

[squaredance]

I think Benedict was pushed out. It is the only thing that makes sense.

The the generation that has come into power is very leftist.

I do think the Catholic Church will go the way of the Anglicans, at least in the West.

For quite some time I have noticed that one cannot have a discussion in Catholic Circles and take a conservative stand, nor does there seem to me much understanding of Marxism or what the Democrats are really about. Almost all Catholics I run into are Democrats. They are vocal supports of amnesty, "Climate change", and redistributionist transfer payments.

One can say that they are fools to work with their enemies, but I really wonder if these leftist Catholics are really the enemies of the hard left. They hardly seem to understand Christianity at all.

Unless we can turn the tide, the USA in in for a very hard time.

[boris]

It is possible that the public was like the proverbial frog in water slowly being heated when justice Kennedy turned up the fire and the frog suddenly realizes he needs to jump or get cooked.

The prevailing myth about changing marriage is the claim that nothing is being taken from opposite sex couples. I think that is wrong. Having it yanked away all at once could trigger awareness of the loss.

[maryrose]

I do not believe Pope Benedict was forced out
Social justice is a new mantra for many Catholics
Many Catholics are conservative in their thoughts and actions
The liberal ones need to know that Republicans can be caring and compassionate as well without redistributing wealth and opening our borders to the criminal illegal element

[squaredance]

Well again, the issues was never about the gays, it was just another poltical front to attack society, this time using the gays.

So it is with "Climate change", feminism, and to be really honest, the whole Civil Rights racket.

In the particular case of gay marriage, the target is Christians.

I contend that the Left--the real operative Left--is much smaller than we generally assume.

[narciso]

a few too many coincideneces:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3305939/post

now it could be the curia, is subject to O'sulivan's law as is the pool of judges,

[Old Lurker]

Maryrose, mm and jack. I very much appreciate your willingness to discuss all this. You know my frutration with my own church, and i was intrigued when Benedict seemed to be open to finding a way for unhappy Protestants to interact more with the Catholic Church. poof all that is gone now with this Pope, and that is one rason I complain about him.

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

Christianity will survive in Asia and Africa at least, where it's gone toe to toe with Is-Slum. It's certainly the only area of growth in the Episcopal church, where at the enclave of bishops they're treated like ignorant savages as you'd expect from a religion that has lost it's way.

[MarkO]

The Gay Mafia would be unwise to push America's religious population too hard.
Gay is about 3%. It's like that race war we talk about. The numbers don't work for those who threaten it.

[narciso]

well Dave in point of fact it's Baathist, 'but that's not important right now'

http://pamelageller.com/2015/06/uks-cameron-i-wish-the-bbc-would-stop-calling-it-islamic-state-because-it-is-not-an-islamic-state.html/

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Christianity always eventually loses its way in peaceful, plush surroundings and thrives under persecution.

The Soviets learned that the hard way, as the Romans did long before them and as the Communist Chinese are learning right now.

If the left makes good on its plans to persecute it here they will break themselves on the same rock as well.

[narciso]

that earlier FReeper link came from a Life News behind the scenes account of thzt muddled synod on the family,

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Here?
The Almost Unbelievable Account of How the Family Synod Was Almost Hijacked by an Anti-Family Agenda

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3305939/posts

[narciso]

That;s the one,

one notices how Islam is the only allowed, actually encouraged to proselytize it's message,

[squaredance]

Maryrose:

1) The young may be more tolerant, but this is not what is "driving" the movement. "Professional" Leftist cadres are driving this (and b professional I mean professional Marxists).

Pushing homosexuality on the West has long be a strategy of Communists, and it goes way back to the interwar period.

2) No, "social justice" is not new to Catholicism, it goes way back, and certainly was a major political component of Christianity in the late 19th century, particularly in Germany and Austria. Also, in America the so called "social gospel" movement dates from before even WW1. This worked out well for noone

(and I should point out that a lot of the "Social Catholics" were among those initially duped by both Hitler and Mussolini. Never forget that it was the Nazis who invented the term "Politically Correct".)

What is new is the incredible power, organization and monies that have gone into the Left since WW2, and the fecklessness of the Elites in standing against it in the last third of the 20th Century.

3) It is not about being "caring and compassionate", that is just a hustle.

If so-called "Liberal Catholics" cannot understand the error of this, then they understand not their Faith, the world and its history, or what "social justice really is". They really do not understand there own selves . They need to be called on on these issues, and not shown "compassionate conservatism".
(I would go as far as to say that "Liberal Catholics" as I mean the term, are in the end nether actually Christians or Catholics in a strict sense. and if they were confronted with their errors, they would leave the Church.)

But beyond the case of "Liberal Catholics", the Left are savage barbarians. They are not "caring and compassionate", not at all. That is just a pose, a hustle evidently required in the West. T Hey do not even attempt that in other venues.
They offer nothing but brute force,the barrel of a gun and revolution, and they would have done that in the USA too if they could have gotten away with it.
This is war. What the rest of us need to do is show them that we know what is up and we will not let them get away with it.

This is a major problem in how we deal with the left in the West: we take them at their word on the professed reasons proffered byt their various political front and try to "discuss" it with them rationally. We believe that it is an issue of polemics, discourse and debate. Thus they control the rhetoric. But these proffered goals are not the real goals, they are fronts; they are lies. All the words are just so much punches and jabs.

When the Left accuses the rest of us of a lack of compassion, the proper response is not "see, us conservatives can care just as much as you".

The proper response is: "you are a immoral liar and thief, and you do not care about anything but your power and destruction", and then to refuse to let then change the subject.

The left has to pay a price for their perfidy, and that price has to include a loss of power, prestige, money and, one hopes, some jail time.

They are basically cowards here in the US.

They are not the cadre of the Russian Civil War or The Long March.

Stand up to them and they just might fold.

[narciso]

barely economically literate, they remove all doubt in other areas"

http://fusion.net/story/158096/does-your-church-ban-gay-marriage-then-it-should-start-paying-taxes/

the site concerned with pot and amnesty in probably reverse order,

[narciso]

barely economically literate, they remove all doubt in other areas"

http://fusion.net/story/158096/does-your-church-ban-gay-marriage-then-it-should-start-paying-taxes/

the site concerned with pot and amnesty in probably reverse order,

[jimmyk]

I agree with squaredance's skepticism about the sea change in public opinion about gay marriage in such a short time. A lot of people just don't want to subject themselves to the abuse heaped on anyone who dares question whether the emperor really has any clothes. The question is whether any leaders will have the guts to do so in a way that could put a stop to the Salem atmosphere on this topic.

[narciso]

well the Nazi innovation was gleischastung (sic)
coordination, political correctness was a Maoist term, although Marxists like Marcuse, entertained
the same notions with 'repressive tolerance'

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

Welp, jimmyk, the GOPe isn't exactly flush with non quislings; more likely to stab Ted Cruz in the back than combat the enemy. Maybe Walker or Fiorina or Rubio can provide an antidote. These are trying times.

[squaredance]

No, politcal correctness was a nazi phrase, and ironically, coopted by the Frankfort school when they were chased out of The Reich.

[squaredance]

Jimmyk: I would wager that if you went into the minority communities it would be even more stacked against gays.

Again, it is just another lie. It does not make sense.

[GUS]

Went to Milwaukee's Summerfest last night. Biggest music festival on earth. Saw a chick in a band with a t-shirt, a white t-shirt that said in large black letters.....GAY OK. I would have laughed, but a fucking bumper sticker passing for rational thought. It's typical lib garbage. STRAIGHT OK, not cool, GAY OK cool. What does that say about the SHEEPLE of the post OVAL OFFICE BLOW JOB PERIOD. Today, I watched an MC5 VIDEO of YOU-TUBE. Sonic Smith, Patty Smith's husband, and a great guitar player, had a small 4x4 or so, CONFEDERATE FLAG on his AMP HEAD. He wasn't espousing racism, and that flag HAS NOT BROUGHT HORROR and HATE to the current generations alive today. This shit is WHIPPED UP ALYNSKI BULLSHIT, and the SHEEEPLE suck in down like so much pablum.

Mmmmmm, good eating. When we have Rachel Dolezal and Bruce Jenner being PRAISED for being FREAKS, Houston/America, we have a problem.

[narciso]

none of this makes sense, that's why modern culture, is the vector for it,

[narciso]

none of this makes sense, that's why modern culture, is the vector for it,

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Bill Lind says Political Correctness was birthed by German Marxists in 1923.
Read it and judge for yourself.

[glasater]

Celibate homosexuals is a non sequitur.

That is..one cannot be both. Its either one or the other.

[GUS]

Au contraire Narciso, it ALL makes sense. This is the culmination of 40plus years of patient infiltration of our cultural, social, political and even religious institutions. Obama being the FELLOW TRAVELER in CHIEF is simply amazing execution of a written plan, with the willing help of the Media, Education, various co-dependent groups of USEFUL IDIOTS, and a nation willing to believe in a Chocolate Jesus, who is neither chocolate, Jesus, nor even Christian. I coined the term THE FULL COMMIE..8 years ago. The masks are off, and the HARD MARXIST LEFT does not fear the consequences of their actions. A large portion of LIBTARDS aren't smart enough to see where this is going. They are drunk and joyful with a sense of empowerment, that WILL NOT END WELL.

[cathyf]

Maryrose, I am convinced Benedict was forced out by a cabal of marxist Cardinals resulting in the guy you see know. Don't know how they did it but I will wait for Dan Brown to tell me:)

I think something entirely different happened:

1) During Vatican II, the bishops came together, and with the help of their personal theologians, they took over the Church.

2) Humanae Vitae was the Curia striking back. First they got the position away from the Council by getting the pope to appoint a Commission. Then when the Commission was against them, they got the pope to add a bunch more members to the Commission. Then when most of the new members ended up agreeing with the original members, the pope said that the Commission had to be unanimous. Then he published the encyclical despite the Commission.

3) The Church exploded, with tens of thousands of priests and nuns resigning, and it became obvious that the clericism of the past was on a collision course with arithmetic.

4) The Curia decided that this was all a result of having all of those smart and articulate bishops and their smart and articulate theologians. Once Pope Paul died, they convinced JP II that the secret was to only appoint stupid bishops, too dumb to appoint smart theologians and too dumb to listen to them anyway.

5) Benedict was the last bishop who had been at the Council. He really was the end of an era -- brilliant as a theologian, brilliant as a bishop.

6) At the end of JP II's life, he was totally disabled, and the Church was taken over by crooks, happy to take bribes from psychopathic perverts like Maciel. And we had the rise of the "New Evangelization", groups of enthusiastic Catholics which usually got taken over by various nutcases and turned into cults. JP II gave us a bunch of loose cannon priests not under the authority of any bishops or religious superiors.

7) Benedict made a huge difference in his short tenure, in that he appointed a lot of bishops in a short time, and the bishops that he appointed are much better bishops -- a lot smarter, to begin with.

8) But he just ran out of time. He's OLD -- the reason that he is the last of the Vatican II great minds is that the rest of them have died of old age. He saw the tremendous damage done to the Church in JP II's decline.

9) I think that the reason that he resigned is really just what he said: that he knows very well the bad things that happen when the pope cannot control the Curia, and he knew that he had to get out before it happened to him.

10) The reason that we got Francis is that it was an absolute certainty that this pope would be a JP II appointee. Paul's appointees were too old -- or dead. Benedict's appointees too young. I'm afraid that Francis really was about the best that we could do at that point in time.

Hopefully, Francis will not do too much damage before the next pope, and that it will be enough time that one of Benedict's appointees will be a viable candidate.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

--Celibate homosexuals is a non sequitur.-

If they're attracted to the same sex but abstain from sexual relations aren't they celibate homosexuals?

[narciso]

yes, that's a reasonable theory, cathyf

[narciso]

for whom though, it one takes the example of Charles 1, persecuting the Puritans, it didn't end well,