In Defense Of David Brooks, His Failing Memory, And His Failed Fact-Checker

David Zweig at Salon gets some clicks with a breathless expose of the lying David Brooks:

The facts vs. David Brooks: Startling inaccuracies raise questions about his latest book

Factual discrepancies in the NYT columnist's new book raise some alarming questions about his research & methods

Spoiler alert - we can all exhale, this is not that alarming. Still...

For at least the past four years David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, TV pundit, bestselling author and lecture-circuit thought leader, has been publicly talking and writing about humility. Central to his thesis is the idea that humility has waned among Americans in recent years, and he wants us to harken to an earlier, better time.

One of the key talking points (if not the key talking point) cited by Brooks in lectures, interviews, and in the opening chapter of his current bestseller, “The Road to Character,” is a particular set of statistics — one so resonant that in the wake of the book’s release this spring, it has been seized upon by a seemingly endless number of reviewers and talking heads. There’s just one problem: Nearly every detail in this passage – which Brooks has repeated relentlessly, and which the media has echoed, also relentlessly — is wrong.

David Zweig was exploring similar humilty-related themes when he came across this factoid from a David Brooks talk a few years back:

In 1950 the Gallup Organization asked high school seniors “Are you a very important person?” And in 1950, 12 percent of high school seniors said yes. They asked the same question again in 2006; this time it wasn’t 12 percent, it was 80 percent.

But diligent fact-checking could not confirm that detail, so Zweig did not use it himself. But Brooks did, in 2015!

The passage from “The Road to Character” reads:

“In 1950, the Gallup Organization asked high school seniors if they considered themselves to be a very important person. At that point, 12 percent said yes. The same question was asked in 2005, and this time it wasn’t 12 percent who considered themselves very important, it was 80 percent.”

And oddly, a thematically similar point had been made in Brook's own 2011 "The Social Animal":

The passage from “The Social Animal” reads:

“In 1950 a personality test asked teenagers if they considered themselves an important person. Twelve percent said yes. By the late 1980s, 80 percent said yes.”

So Brooks forgot his own book and his own factcheckers don't re-reread his own stuff. Color me disappointed, but hardly horrified. But if Zweig is right I am under-reacting:

Somehow, between the publication of “The Social Animal” in 2011 and the publication of “The Road to Character” in 2015, a study that originally occurred, by Brooks’ telling, in “the late 1980s” became one that occurred nearly 20 years later. (Amazingly, to the New York Times reviewer, the late 1980s and 2005 are only “slightly different dates.” And how was any difference in dates for the same citation, no matter how “slight,” not problematic to the Times reviewer?)

What began as a simple fact-check of a Gallup poll was devolving into a morass.

Zweig contacts Brooksies people, eventually is offered a research paper by Newsom, Archer et al as a citation, and contacts the authors. The gist - Brooks wasn't so wrong in The Social Animal" but was deeply wrong in "The Road To Perdition Character":

The thing I keep wondering is how did Brooks get nearly every detail of this passage wrong? He said Gallup did the polls, when they were actually done by academics. He merged a data set from 1948 and 1954 into 1950. He said the second data set was from 2005, when it was from 1989 (to me, the most damning and damaging inaccuracy). He said it was high school seniors, when it was ninth graders. And he said 80 percent answered true, when that was only so for boys. Can one accidentally get this many details wrong?

So the question is, if it wasn’t an accident, why would Brooks deliberately falsify nearly every detail in a passage of his book, let alone one that is a cornerstone of the book’s P.R. campaign?

Why would Brooks deliberately falsify this whole factoid? Is that really the obvious next question? I would ruminate on the fraility of human memory before I assumed Brooks to be lying. 

Speaking of which, and filed under "everything new is old again", here is an aggrieved blogger from 2011:

Back in March David Brooks titled one of his New York Times columns “The Modesty Manifesto.” In it, he argued that over the course of a few generations American culture has shifted from an emphasis on self-effacement to one on self-enlargement — in short, that Americans now hold themselves, as individuals, in much higher regard than they once did.

You see this freight train coming, don't you?

However, one item from his column that Mr. Brooks keeps repeating on the lecture and interview circuits is more sinister. He cites polling data showing that in the 1950s 12% of American high school seniors said they were “a very important person” and that by the 1990s a whopping 80% believed that they were. Leaving aside the fact that Brooks keeps changing the date for that 80% figure (sometimes he says it’s from polling done in the 1990s, sometimes from 2005), Brooks is refusing to look under the surface of this seemingly alarming number.

Hmm. So even back in 2011 Brooks was muddling his dates on the stump, if not in print. The Modesty Manifesto column from 2011 says this:

In a variety of books and articles, Jean M. Twenge of San Diego State University and W. Keith Campbell of the University of Georgia have collected data suggesting that American self-confidence has risen of late. College students today are much more likely to agree with statements such as “I am easy to like” than college students 30 years ago. In the 1950s, 12 percent of high school seniors said they were a “very important person.” By the ’90s, 80 percent said they believed that they were.

Hmm, right that time! And in July 2010, in the course of berating the narcissistic Mel Gibson, Brooks offers the same cite for the same factoid:

In their book, “The Narcissism Epidemic,” Jean M. Twenge and W. Keith Campbell cite data to suggest that at least since the 1970s, we have suffered from national self-esteem inflation. They cite my favorite piece of sociological data: In 1950, thousands of teenagers were asked if they considered themselves an “important person.” Twelve percent said yes. In the late 1980s, another few thousand were asked. This time, 80 percent of girls and 77 percent of boys said yes.

I Boldly Infer that Twenge et al were the source of this tidbit for Brooks. A diligent reader can Look Inside and find it on p. 35 here, or check this cool screenshot:

 

So why is Salon author Zweig contacting professors Newsom and Archer? Because they are the citation offered by Twenge (e.g., in this Journal of Personality 76:4, August 2008 paper, "Egos Inflating Over Time: A Cross-Temporal Meta-Analysis of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory", p. 878). Rather than blaming Brooks for moving a 1948 survey into the 1950s and muddling boys with girls, one might take it up with Twenge. (And FWIW, Twenge reverses the 80% / 77% boy-girl breakdown provided by Zweig, and if I had a copy of the Newsom paper I would gleefully adjudicate that dispute. And do, see UPDATE.)

Still, one wonders how Gallup got involved and why the second study keeps getting moved into 2005. Let me compound the mystery - here is a blogger from 2007 describing "Fame Junkies", published in 2007 by former factchecker, New Republic and NPR writer Jake Halpern:

"American teenagers are the most narcissistic people in the world."

That conclusion comes from a study published in Jake Halpern's new bookFame Junkies, The Hidden Truths behind Americas Favorite Addiction. 

Last night I went to see him do a reading at a local bookstore.  He talked about how in the 1950's 12% of American teens answered yes to the question "Are you an important person?"  In 2006, that number  jumped to over 80%.

Well, that is one fanboy heard from, but did Halpern really say that? I wasn't there, but in the book (Look Inside p. 35 - that page is not presented, but searches on "important person" confirm the factoid's presence) he cites the 2006 "Generation Me" by Twenge, and in the press release he offers this:

Are teenagers in America really more self-important than they were in the past? 

There is certainly information to support this notion. This piece of data is my favorite. It comes from the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. This personality test has been given to teenagers since the early 1950s. If you compare the results from teenagers who took the test in the early 1950s to results from teenagers who took it in the late 1980s, it's quite interesting. One of the most striking differences between these two groups was the way they responded to item 58, which reads: "I am an important person." In the early 1950s, only 12 percent of teenagers endorsed that statement; by the late 1980s, that number had jumped to roughly 80 percent. 

This is everybody's favorite factoid! If I had to guess, I would wager that Halpern mentioned a 2006 book citing a study from the 1950s and late 80s, and the blogger dropped the 80s figure. I would further wager that Our Guy Brooks remembers the 2006 book and is making the same mistake on the dates.

So how did Gallup get in the mix? Beats me. On August 31 2011 on C-SPAN, Brooks cited Gallup, contra his then-recent book. In 2010, at a talk in Asheville, Gallup was in the story, and the second survey was "last year":

“It occurred to me that this is a shift in our culture,” he said. “In 1950, a Gallup poll asked teenagers ‘Are you an important person?’ and 12% said yes. Last year, 80% said yes. That’s a shift in culture."

But why Gallup? Another unsolved mystery. There is a Gallup Youth Survey which was founded in 1977, and in a head as packed with factoids as Mr. Brooks, some cross-wiring may have occurred (yet again, more information equals less knowledge).

I would opine that Brooks is obviously confused, his factcheckers are either overworked or underpaid, and Zweig is a bit too excited about his "gotcha". As Mark Twain might have said, "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so."

UPDATE: Don't seek and ye shall find - in the course of looking for something else I stumbled upon the full Newsom paper, which has something for everyone:

In the 1950s, this item, placed on the ego inflation (Ma4) subscale, was endorsed as true by only about 12% of the Hathaway and Monachesi (1963) sample. In contrast, this item was endorsed as true by 77% (girls) to 80% (boys) of contemporary adolescents. The dramatic shift in endorsement frequency probably reflects a fundamental shift in the connotation of this item, that is, in the Hathaway era this item was likely interpreted by adolescents as related to self-aggrandizement, whereas it is seen as reflective of positive aspects of self-esteem by modern adolescents.

So 1948 is culturally repackaged into 'the 1950s' here and down the line, But for some reason, Prof. Twenge reversed the boy/girl split.

And of course, when a 2003 paper cites 1989 data to describe "contemporary adolescents", I suppose some confusion is possible. That said, the authors are crystal clear, several pages earlier, that the "contemporary" data is from the late 1980s:

The contemporary adolescent sample is comprised of the 805 boys and 815 girls collected in the late 1980s to create the MMPI–A adolescent norms.

 

 

 

 

Comments

[Stephanie]

A democrat is a communist too stupid to realize it.

[Neo]

Walter Issacson recently made much the same argument about humility citing Ben Franklin. Franklin, who was less than humble, said that humility or at least the pretense of humility was a necessary part of the discussion of ideas, since at least one of you will have to keep quiet while others talked, at least part of the time.

[NKonChrome]

Insty Limks: Even Megan M admits that State pensions are a fraud and will never be paid in full. I note Megan still naively assumes Soc Sec will be paid in full, per 1980s 'restructuring' promises-- HAH!: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-15/what-to-expect-when-you-re-expecting-a-pension

[jimmyk]

NYT style guide: Democrats are "nuanced" and "calibrated." Republicans are "evasive" and "calculating."

[lyle]

Jimmy Fallon:

How about this woman Rachel Dolezal in Spokane, Washington? She was president of the Spokane chapter of the NAACP but was exposed as a white woman who was pretending to be black. A lot of people are upset, especially her white friends who thought they had at least one black friend.

[Stephanie]

Benghazi committee chairman Trey Gowdy escorted Rep. Darrel Issa out of the closed-door deposition of Hillary Clinton confidant Sidney Blumenthal and the two briefly exchanged hushed words in a nearby hallway before Issa threw a soda can and stormed off.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/245152-issa-escorted-out-of-benghazi-deposition

[DebinNC]

Marilyn Mosby filed a new motion to block the Baltimore 6 defense from publicly sharing FG's autopsy results. Surefire way to get the cops to be more proactive and bring the shooting stats down.

[DebinNC]

"The pair briefly exchanged hushed words in a nearby hallway before Issa stormed off, throwing an empty soda can into a nearby trash bin" .... That maniac.

[lyle]

Uh oh. Issa doesn't recycle!!!! Why does he hate Gaia?

[Stephanie]

Evidently Issa crashed the meeting...and was asked to leave.

Anyways.

There's this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3126793/Rachel-Dolezal-poses-provocative-glamour-girl-shots-complete-knee-length-braids-bellybutton-ring-two-years-outed-white.html

[NKonChrome]

Rachel needs a check up from the neck up.

[Extraneus]

Brilliant! What nuance!

Heh.

[lyle]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/419853/witless-ape-rides-escalator-kevin-d-williamson

You don't have to click, I just like the title.

Anyway, Stephanie, in your link the writer says her hair was revealed as a "weave." What is that? Is that like a toupee for the wimmenz?

[I'm self identifying as a raccoon in need of a hairdresser.]

Yup, artificial woven with natural.

[Extraneus]

Rachel-Dolezal-poses-provocative-glamour-girl-shots-complete-knee-length-braids-bellybutton-ring

As if we didn't have enough information.

[This ravelled sleeve of inquisition.]

Issa and Gowdy unravelled.

[Sue]

I hope Glenda is hunkered down on Galveston Island.

[Jane]

The Hill is certainly desperate for a headline if they published that story. What I want to know, is anyone nervous tonite?

[Extraneus]

Ted Cruz calling for release of stalled Iran human rights report

A little over a month ago, five Senate colleagues and I sent a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry requesting information about the ongoing delay of the annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. In recent days the State Department informed my office it has been unable to release the long-overdue annual report on Iran’s human rights abuses because of a scheduling conflict.

The State Department is required by law to release this report on February 25 of this year. On April 16, the department announced a further delay but gave no indication of when it might appear. Our letter requested the department release the report by May 15 or furnish a thorough explanation for the delay.

In a letter dated June 9, Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs Julia Frifield responded that Secretary Kerry’s rigorous travel schedule caused the delay: “The Secretary’s participation in the rollout, even if it must be delayed by his travel, elevates the report. The Secretary has needed to travel abroad for extended periods, often on short notice, during the past three months to address a variety of pressing foreign policy concerns”—thus implying that the report is complete but that scheduling conflicts with more pressing matters have prevented its release.

Required by law. A meaningless term.

[Stephanie]

Kim got it right... it's artificial hair attached via weaving it in to the existing hair... which causes hair loss which causes more need for weaves which causes more hair loss which causes more...

It's a racket and a good chunk of where the welfare checks go - along with the nails and cellphones. And eyebrows.... don't even get me started on the newest trend. They are dying the skin and brows to get those "awesome" looking fake arches of the 40s.

And down heah in the souf, there's a weave shop on every other corner. Right next to the nail salon and cell phone store.

[Old Lurker]

Jane "What I want to know, is anyone nervous tonite?"

Did I miss something to worry about?

[henry]

OL, gotta be referring to Hilligula! Worrying about Sid's testimony.

[Old Lurker]

Sid, say hello to Vince when you see him.

[lyle]

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2015/06/16/draft-n2012995?utm_source=BreakingOnTownhallWidget_4&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=BreakingOnTownhall

20 Hilligula quote. So let's put this self-aggrandizing, greedy, proto communist in the WH, okay?

[Stephanie]

More fun.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/06/346177-rachel-dolezal-fake-painting-actual-masterpiece/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Owned&utm_term=ijreview&utm_campaign=Life

Check out the ebay offering... LOL

[Captain Hate]

Did I miss something to worry about?

Beginning of Cavs miraculous comeback?

[Old Lurker]

Sure Cap'n, right after the Skins right?

[Captain Hate]

I'm sensing some skepticism of the abilities of the Sober Scot.

[Ann]

I actually liked Jeb's speech...But I loved Triumph today. Loud and proud of America. Great looking family. They don't need our money.No more schruggling.

[Extraneus]

Southern Baptists: Supreme Court is not final authority on gay marriage

I was going to quote from some of it, but it's worth reading the whole thing. This guy, Ronnie Floyd, the elected leader of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, is taking a stand.

[Captain Hate]

No more schruggling.

Ann is the best. Str8 outta Ahia.

[Captain Hate]

You mean the source of the wisdom of Dred Scott and Plessy versus Ferguson can be mistaken? The Deuce you say.

[Extraneus]

Ex-AIG CEO says he will appeal a ruling that says he's not entitled to damages from bailout

NEW YORK – The former chairman and CEO of insurer AIG says he still believes he's entitled to damages as a result of the government's 2008 bailout of the company, and will appeal a court's ruling against him.

A federal judge gave Maurice Greenberg a partial win Monday when he ruled that the $85 billion government bailout was unfairly punitive. But the judge said the government doesn't have to pay damages to Greenberg and other AIG shareholders. Greenberg says he will appeal that part of the ruling.

Greenberg wants more than $40 billion in damages. He said Tuesday that if the government wasn't allowed to demand equity in AIG as a condition of the bailout, it's also not entitled to the money it received from selling AIG shares later.

That doesn't seem crazy.

[NKonChrome]

Jeb's a good man. But this is not his time, and his time may have past irrevocably.

[Cecil Turner]

Let's see, last time the Dems had a guy pitching his connection with the people and universal health care. Just about the only guy who couldn't engage on either issue was Mitt Romney, so . . .

This time the Dems have someone from a political dynasty with too much unearned money. Just about the only guy who can't engage . . .

Go Jeb! (No, seriously, I mean leave.)

[Stephanie]

Score!!

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/16/rachel-dolezal-in-talks-for-reality-show/

[Ann]

Thanks,Captain

[Captain Hate]

Maybe the Rule of Holes should be the eleventh commandment:

http://www.weaselzippers.us/226643-pope-francis-denies-he-preaches-communism/

[Jim Miller]

DrJ - Decades ago, I was on a first date with a psychiatrist. (Insert psychiatrist joke here, if you need to.)

Naturally, being a psychiatrist, she was very interested in figuring me out. And she made some progress. At one point, she said, accusingly, something like this: "I'll bet you are one of those people who have to read the New York Times."

I smiled sheepishly, and didn't confess that I was even worse than she thought. Then, as now, I read the New York Times and get angry at the errors and bias. And their frequent misuse of metaphors. (I long ago stopped thinking they will get the numbers right, but I am still disappointed when they get the words wrong, as Maureen Dowd did on Sunday.)

(There was no second date -- which was just as well for both of us.)

All that said I still think the Times is the best newspaper in the world, though by a smaller margin over the WSJ than it used to have. In spite of the newspaper's serious, and growing, problems.

And I have been advising people for even more decades to always accompany the Times with some source that is consistently critical of the newspaper.

For lyle: I believe in opposition reasearch -- and think that the NYT is a good place to do it.

[Jane]

Did I miss something to worry about?

The Blumenthal depos is expected to go 7 hours. They are still at it. I love that stuff.

[Captain Hate]

Thanks to Steph for linking this on Zuckerberg. In case you were wondering if Ben Cardin hasn't gone full retard:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/245144-senate-blocks-direct-aid-to-kurdish-forces

[Captain Hate]

In fairness to this retard, he was on The Ed Show:

http://www.weaselzippers.us/226622-michael-eric-dyson-suggests-rachel-dolezals-parents-are-racist-for-outing-her-they-want-her-to-pledge-fealty-fidelity-loyalty-to-her-true-roots/

[lyle]

Jim, I get that. And whether I like it or not, the NYT has an outsized voice in the MFM and it drives the print/online media agenda with a ruthlessness that I have to grudgingly admire. As oppo research goes, it's clearly ne plus ultra. Its readers I've found to be mostly nothing more than dilettantes and very superficial in their newsiness, excluding yourself of course. ;)

[Jack The Trans-Former]

We're in Charleston sans Frederick who is in Southampton with his buddy and at tennis camp. Driving up we had Rush on and he was all over the Trump announcement which I was suprised he actually made. But he is in like Flynn and he will be the hand grenade without the pin. He is very much like Carly, in that The Donald takes no prisioners during the give and take of Q&A's. He is a rant machine and an uncompromising populist on immigration, china, the dollar, DC and national security.

If you are going to try to policy wonk him you'll lose to his hands on business and negotiating experience (his words not mine). So, I think he will be refreshing to have on the stage for the debates. I don't think he a Ross Perot who will quit once it looks like he could win. I think Trump truly beliefves he should be POTUS.

But what do I know? I only have one vote.

[Captain Hate]

SMOD is such a tease:

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=357374

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

It fits the times that a complete fraud only famous for being a complete fraud is in talks for a reality show.

[Jim Miller]

For the record: I am up to three unicorns now, three cars seen using the Kirkland library charging stations.

As I mentioned recently, I was startled to see an electric car (a Nissan Leaf) using the station, for the first time I could remember. (In recent years, I've used the parking garage under the library about once a week.)

Hoping to get photographic evidence I brought my camera along today, and, much to my surprise, saw an electric BMW in one of the stalls (though not plugged in).

To my even greater surprise, when I came back from lunch, there was a Ford electric in another stall, being charged.

So, three unicorns -- and now I have pictures of two of them. Which I hope to post, within a week or so, after I have done some research.

For the record, this area (Seattle's eastside suburbs) gets its electricity from Puget Sound Energy, which, according to Wikipedia, gets 33% of its electricty from hydro, 29% from natural gas, and 36% from coal.

[lyle]

Well when you have a fraud in the WH, Ig...

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

-- That's the first time I've heard a contrary word about unearned income here. --

The actual term was "unearned money" as in swag one banks through corruption, graft and giving bland banal speeches that are in fact methods by which one collects graft, as opposed to "unearned income:, which is the Marxist misnomer for wealth earned by wise, beneficial investment or money earned previously.

[SMOD]

I will unfurl one million years of SMOD justice on Earth AND BURN IT TO ITS CORE!!

[rse]

Jim-the inn we stayed at in Mendocino had multiple electric charging stations. Each time it included a separate tesla charger. It was so excessive I wondered if it was now mandated.

[Stephanie]

Ain't got no infinity stones, SMOD.

The white toga crowd on Fox just lifted their pinky fingers in solidarity against that awful Trump. He's gonna sully the GOP by his presence on the debate stage!!!

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

*of* money earned previously

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Pot charging stations would get a lot more use in Mendocino.

[daddy]

Good Morning!

George Will on the panel says Trump is an injurious megalomaniac.

DrK says "his campaign is run on 'Know Nothing' Xenophobia."

Mara Liaison is happy he is in.

Mark Levin on his radio show is much more complementary of Trump, saying that he is saying some very important things that needs to be said.

[Extraneus]

Hey Jim, I was talking to a solar professor the other day and he told me about a great new program where the gov't would pay to outfit your house with solar panels, for free.

You get a special switch that allows you to provide excess energy back to the "grid" during peak solar times, and get credit for that.

In return, you have to sign up for renewable energy for some period of time which I forget. (It was a long time.) The renewable energy is delivered to your house via the standard energy company, and costs a lot more than standard energy, so you don't save money, but you get the satisfaction of being green.

I didn't want to tip my hand by asking how the gov't is able to pay for the solar installation, or whether the standard energy company uses any fossil fuels in order to provide the renewable energy to your house.

[Rocco]

Trump is a Republican, no wait, he's an Independant, no wait, he's a Democrat, no wait, he's a Republican again, no wait, he's unenrolled, and now...I'm confused.

http://thesmokinggun.com/buster/donald-trump/donald-trump-voter-history-567920

[Jane]

Glad you made it home Daddy. I've taken 3 naps and a full nite's sleep since you left. Bet you didn't sleep 40 minutes. And you were supposed to eat that shrimp. Harrumph!

[Captain Hate]

Shocking that the Rove News Network doesn't like that bounder Trump. I didn't see that coming...

[Jane]

Rocco, so glad to see you posting more. The most common thing people said about you Saturday nite (and Sunday morning) was "how can we get Rocco to post more".

Keep doing it and I'll take full credit.

[rse]

Iggy-there is a bar intown where the locals hang out and it practically had a biker gang feel.

[Buckeye]

daddy I am with you. The Rove news team/ GOPe can tsk, tsk all they want, but the Donald as meglomaniac as he may be would be a improvement over the POS in the WH now.

Besides, he will add some pointed tough questioning in the race that so far only Carly has brought.

[daddy]

DrK puts Racial Dolezal on the couch:

DrK: George is right, this is "Oppression Envy." What's interesting to me as a Psychiatrist in remission, is that I can't quite figure out if this is Psycho-patholopgical Deception on her part, or has she actually shifted over into Delusion? Does she know that these are lies, or has she talked her way in, thought her way in, does she actually think that she is African American, and I think that it would really be interesting to (do a ) Psychological study. But it is a Sociological study when you end up where you are obsessed with race, gender and ethnicity.

[Captain Hate]

Hey Buckeye, I was wondering if you, Ann, maryrose and any other Ahia denizens would be interested in a JOhioM meetup at some place central to all of us, like maybe the inn adjacent to Malabar Farm sometime in late summer or early fall.

[Rocco]

Aww...thanks Jane but I think I may have already worn out my welcome defending my beloved Pats.

Re Trump, if he's turning 69 this week and the first time he registered was 1987, he didn't vote until he was 41. I find that troubling.

[Jack The Trans-Former]

Rocco,

My company's PAC used to be only r GOP until we confronted the realization of a Democrat controlled congress where our issues would be decided. And like all business decisions, whether you agree or not, we changed our strategy on giving.

Donald llves in a blue hell and has decided to play the game. I think when you delve into everyone's past giving you'll find more of this.

[Jim Miller]

rse - I wouldn't be surprised if there is a mandate, and I like learning that a Tesla has different requirements.

Ex - There's a will to believe about solar power among some of the acolytes that is simply amazing.

(And I used that religious term intentionally.)

That's unfortunate because there are places where solar makes sense right now, for instance using passive solar principles to reduce heating costs, or in areas remote from a grid.

[Rocco]

I hadn't thought of that Jack..from a business perspective, I can understand that.

[Jane]

Your welcome is more than welcomed Rocco.

[Jim Miller]

FWIW, this morning Limbaugh was wondering wheher Trump would do a Perot and go third party.

Naturally, that allowed him to remind us that he was right about Perot in 1992 -- as he was.

And reminded me that the famous quip about the Bourbons sometimes applies to Limbaugh.

[Jack The Trans-Former]

Jim Miller,

As I mentioned before, there is an Outlet Mall in St. Agustine, off of I-95 which has a 6 unit charging station and I have yet to see any car using it. An outlet mall doesn't seem to be the place Tesla's and Leaf's would want to congregate for upscale shopping unless they are penny pinchers and electric cars are not for penny pinchers.

[Buckeye]

CH

Sounds good to me. What is the name of the Inn?

[Captain Hate]

I think this is it, Buckeye:

http://malabarfarmrestaurant.com/

[Jack The Trans-Former]

Don't make it the Mariemont Inn. That was a joke for Ann.

BTW, where is Rob Crawford our resident Cincy guy and who has seen AliceH lately?

Off to dinner in the Peninsula Grill, yummy!

[daddy]

And you were supposed to eat that shrimp. Harrumph!

I blame it on running out of beer, Jane. It was your fault for letting me give away so much beer to Caro's deckhands, plus I couldn't find the horse-radish to mix with the ketchup.

BTW, we are having horrible forest fires up here. Upon landing, the instant the outer door popped open after landing, a huge scent of burning wafted in, the same scent you get when you sit around a campfire. Visibility is fair, but the normal blue sky is milky and indistinct.

Most of the fire is 60 miles away, up north of Wasilla, but unfortunately they think a lot of the fire was started by moron's not paying attention doing controlled burns of debris, and by someone not fully extinguishing their cigarette butts. As a consequence, the Govt has banned controlled burns and is hammering cigarette smokers.

Personally I am just glad that when my good JOM buddies go on their Alaska Cruise next month, none of them are the sort of folks who secretly sneak out in the back yard to smoke cigarettes, as they would probably be arrested for such scurrilous behavior by authorities.

[Captain Hate]

AliceH was here within the last week iirc. Rob comes and goes.

[Rocco]

Jane, I wasn't even lurking out here and it wasn't until I found your invite that I decided to check out JOM again. I was spending all of my online time out here.

http://www.lakeontariounited.com/fishing-hunting/

But boy am I glad I did! What a pleasure it was meeting all of the wonderful JOM'ers at your party!

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

--That's what I thought. UNearned.--

Only a Marxist would consider some government goldbrick snoring and snitching supplies from the break room they occupy half the day earned their money while some guy who worked 20 hour days for years to accumulate enough to invest in economically useful income producing ventures did not.
Keeping in mind these are the same people who for years bemoaned our lagging savings rate vs Japan or China. Apparently we're supposed to save in order to hand it all to the government. That should encourage investment.
Of course I guess that's the government's job anyway.

[GMax]

Seth Myers said something extremely hurtful and frightfully microaggressive:

It was a beautiful weekend in New York. This is how nice the weather was: I went outside without sunscreen for about an hour, and I was elected to run the Spokane NAACP.

Now that is damn funny, I dont care what you say...

[daddy]

Rocco,

What's surprising to me is that after listening to news coverage of this female Prison Guard's "exploits", I'm beginning to think that guys in the joint are probably getting as much if not more "action" then most of us un-incarcerated guys.

What a crazy world we live in.

And haven't caught up on the threads so don't know what's going on in the Tom Brady "under-inflation" JOM-wars, but happily now we can all damn the St Louis Cardinals (or not) for hacking the Houston Astros. I just know people are angry about that, but I don't exactly know why, especially since Houston is now American league and the Card's are National League.

[Rocco]

Here's what I've been up too

My youngest son Ross with a nice King Salmon

And my oldest, Jesse with a nice laker

Ross catches all the fish and Jesse gets so jealous. But I'm teaching my sons how to fish Lake Ontario...how cool is that!

[sbw]

NK: Jeb's a good man.

Link?

[daddy]

Great pix, Rocco.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Wow, Rocco, a very productive day on the water.

[lyle]

Some big lunkers, there.

[new lurker]

Ben is crazy. Please don't respond to him, JOM'ers.

[CR]

Sidney Blumenthal did not write or know the source of any of the Libya intelligence he passed on to then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Blumenthal told House Benghazi investigators on Tuesday, according to sources in the room.
He also did not verify any of the intelligence he forwarded to the nation’s top diplomat, sources said.
Story Continued Below

Blumenthal, subpoenaed by the Select Committee on Benghazi for a closed-door deposition, merely copied and pasted memos from Tyler Drumheller, a former CIA officer who was working on a Libya business venture, and sent them to Clinton, two people familiar with his testimony told POLITICO.
The sources also said Blumenthal maintained that his practice of forwarding such memos was unsolicited and that he was not being compensated for gathering or passing along the information.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/blumenthal-didnt-write-any-of-the-libya-intelligence-he-sent-clinton-119081.html#ixzz3dGypHrVI

The deposition is going on eight hours now. I think it was very generous and patriotic of him to do this work for free.

[Rocco]

daddy...I can think of at least 6 women that got involved with the cons and fired as a result. One of them had a top position in management and used to visit one particular inmate in the hole where I worked at the time. Later we found out she left her husband for this guy who later died of HIV. I don't know what ever happened to her but it can't be good.

[NKonChrome]

CR@802-- now that is funny. Bravo Zulu.

[Jane]

Rocco, Great pix!

CR, did Hillary know that Blumenthal was cutting and pasting? He was making tons of money off of arms sales that would later be used to kill our pats.

There is nothing worse than when you depose someone and know they are lying but can't quite catch them. I bet if anyone can catch Blumenthal, Gowdy can. Gotta do it thru the back door.

[Jane]

BTW here is the booking page for the prague NRO cruise, Pricey but worth it:

https://bookcruisesdirect.com/nr16d/booking

[Cecil Turner]

Sidney Blumenthal did not write or know the source of any of the Libya intelligence he passed on to then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Blumenthal told House Benghazi investigators on Tuesday, according to sources in the room.

He doesn't know where he got it from, honest! I begin to see why they didn't pay him. Oh, wait . . .

The Clinton cronies can't lie in bed straight.

[Miss Marple]

I see a lot of sniffing and eye-rolling by pundits on TV and on Twitter regarding Trump.

They do so at their peril. That statement he made about how we don't have victories anymore will resonate with a lot of people. He just evoked Patton on O'Reilly.

And remember what Patton said,:Americans want to win.

I also like that he said that Obama was the opposite OFA cheerleader.

[CR]

Jane,
Sounds like yes, Hillary did know according to Gowdy.

Here is a quote from The Hill:

"The chairman said the closed-door interview revealed that the information came from a single source, who was also known to Clinton."

[Rocco]

I don't trust him but what do I know...I supported Romney.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-06-16/fyi-hillary-clinton-had-a-front-pew-seat-at-donald-trump-s-wedding

[Jeff Dobbs]

Cecil:
He doesn't know where he got it from, honest! I begin to see why they didn't pay him. Oh, wait . . .

I think the attempt here is to claim Sid has no idea the original source of the intel - all he knows is that Drumheller was passing stuff along.

Something like this...

Clinton got emails from Sid.
Sid got intel from Drumheller.
Drumheller got intel from sources he knew through his past work at CIA.
Those sources had sources - the original sources of intel - who were influential in Libyan government/military/intelligence etc, and Sid had no inkling who they were.

But, and this may be key to cracking the whole thing, based upon the number of layers we can't rule out that all of this might trace back to . . . Kevin Bacon.

[Miss Marple]

I am not saying I trust him, Rocco.

I am saying he will resonate with a lot of people.

[rich@gmu]

so the Dems want to make "income inequality" the centerpiece of the election and from stage left in walks The Donald ... ugggh. can't make this stuff up.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Trump fills the vacuum created by the GOPe when they don't trust voters to be able to handle the truth.

[peter]

nl @ 8:01 and Jane @ 8:15, true wisdom. On the latter issue having taken about two thousand personal injury depositions here in slip and fall heaven, I know the feeling all too well.