So What About That Confederate Battle Flag?

NRO has an interesting give and take on the symbolic meaning of the Confederate battle flag. Here is Iraq war veteran David French:

Like many Southern boys, I grew up with two flags hanging in my room — an American flag and a Confederate battle flag. The American flag was enormous, taking up much of one wall. It was the “1776” flag, with 13 stars in a circle in the field of blue. My grandmother bought it for me on the bicentennial, and for years it was a treasured possession. The flag took on a special meaning later in life, when I learned more of a family history that included service with General Washington, suffering at Valley Forge.

The Confederate battle flag was much smaller, and it hung over my bookshelf. We bought it at the Shiloh battlefield in Tennessee, where one of my Confederate ancestors fought and where Albert Sidney Johnston died — the general that many considered the great hope of the Confederate Army in the West. My Confederate forefathers went on to fight at Vicksburg, at the battles of Franklin and Nashville, and in countless skirmishes across Tennessee and Mississippi. I grew up looking at old family pictures, including men who still wore their Confederate uniform for formal portraits — long after the war had ended.

So, family history and martial valor. However...

If the goal of our shared civic experience was the avoidance of pain, then we’d take down that flag. But that’s of course not the goal. Rather, we use history to understand our nation in all its complexity — acknowledging uncomfortable realities and learning difficult truths. 

...

It is telling that the South’s chosen, enduring symbol of the Confederacy wasn’t the flag of the Confederate States of America — the slave state itself — but the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, Robert E. Lee’s army. Lee was the reluctant Confederate, the brilliant commander, the man who called slavery a “moral and political evil,” and the architect — by his example — of much of the reconciliation between North and South. His virtue grew in the retelling — and modern historians still argue about his true character — but the symbolism was clear. If the South was to rebuild, it would rebuild under Lee’s banner.

Since that time, the battle flag has grown to mean many things, including evil things. Flying it as a symbol of white racial supremacy is undeniably vile, and any official use of the flag for that purpose should end, immediately. Flying it over monuments to Confederate war dead is simply history. States should no more remove a Confederate battle flag from a Confederate memorial than they should chisel away the words on the granite or bulldoze the memorials themselves.

Jason Lee Steorts doesn't buy it:

Whether you think it’s all right for South Carolina to fly a Confederate battle flag over a Confederate memorial on its capitol grounds depends on whether you think that the Confederate war dead should be honored. If you do, then you can, as David French does, see the flag as a symbol of their valor and skill while decrying its use by white supremacists.

This strikes me as a whitewash of both the flag and the Confederacy. The Confederacy was a rebellion founded on the incoherent idea that the sovereign authority of the United States might be shucked off at the states’ pleasure, and the Confederacy’s primary reason for being was to preserve racial slavery — that is, to violate natural rights rather than to secure them. That is what Confederate soldiers fought for. Whatever else their battle flag may mean, it has to mean that. It did not become a banner of white supremacy in the mid 20th century when racial segregationists took it up. It was a banner of white supremacy, and of lawlessness, from the beginning.

Reihan Salan reviews the history and comes away suggesting that the use of the flag morphed from honoring the Confederate veterans and dead to resisting the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. This is from a study he excerpted:

From the end of the Civil War until the late 1940s, display of the battle flag was mostly limited to Confederate commemorations, Civil War re-enactments, and veterans’ parades. The flag had simply become a tribute to Confederate veterans. It was during that time period, only thirty years after the end of the war and fifty years before the modern civil rights movement, that Mississippi incorporated the battle flag into its own state flag – well before the battle flag took on a different and more politically charged meaning.

In 1948, the battle flag began to take on a different meaning when it appeared at the Dixiecrat convention in Birmingham as a symbol of southern protest and resistance to the federal government – displaying the flag then acquired a more political significance after this convention. Georgia of course, changed its flag in 1956, two years after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. In 1961, George Wallace, the governor of Alabama, raised the Confederate battle flag over the capitol dome in Montgomery to commemorate the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War. The next year, South Carolina raised the battle flag over its capitol. In 1963, as part of his continued opposition to integration, Governor Wallace again raised the flag over the capitol dome. Despite the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War, the likely meaning of the battle flag by that time was not the representation of the Confederacy, because the flag had already been used by Dixiecrats and had become recognized as a symbol of protest and resistance. Based on its association with the Dixiecrats, it was at least in part, if not entirely, a symbol of resistance to federally enforced integration. Undoubtedly, too, it acquired a racist aspect from its use by the Ku Klux Klan, whose violent activities increased during this period. However, it is important to remember that in spite of these other uses, there remained displays of the battle flag as homage to the Confederate dead, with no racist overtones.

Well. At the risk of a Godwin's Law violation, I would note that German history is complicated and many Germans fought valiantly and honorably during WWII. But despite its long history of other meanings we don't see Nazi flags at German war cemeteries, and, although tributes to conventional German soldiers are within bounds, the politics of a cemetery which includes the Waffen SS are deeply fraught. 

People who wanted to reserve the battle flag for honoring the soldiers of the Civil War should have piped up when that flag was politicized by the leaders of the retrograde South. They're a bit late now.

 

Comments

[maryrose]

I think having that flag to honor those Confereate soldiers who died during the Civil War is fine
If you had ancestors who fought in that war you can't disown them
They are always a part of your family history
Ultimately it comes down to dem censorship and the desire on their part to tell the rest of us what to do
We fought a Revolutionary War to prevent that from happening
The Dems know the gun ploy is a loser so they go for the flag

[maryrose]

As for the N word
If Pbama can use it then anyone can

[maryrose]

Instead of talking about the greatest data breach by the incompetent Obama crew we are discussing the Confederate flag
Well played dems

[henry]

The Germans don't have a 1st Amendment.

The OPM data breach is now at 32 million detail records (per Chaffetz).

Apparently Iran is to get advanced nuclear technology for free (thanks Lurch).

We're stuck talking about a flag that was put on government flag poles all over the south by Democrats in the 1960s because they didn't like desegregation. (And blaming conservative Christians for it).

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

The mole hill de jure continues to be piled into a mountain as radical Islam advances, Russia ponders and implements a grand strategy and China continues to envelop the South China Sea and through its belligerence engender a growing militarization and fully justified fear amongst its neighbors.

Domestically the stage 4 cancer known as the federal bureaucracy sends out ever more malignant cells starting satellite tumors in every part of the body politic.

But, by all means, lets bark and chase our tails over a shiny flag that had exactly zee-ro to do with some nutcase shooting some people in a church.

[maryrose]

CH. Can. I ask a question
Who did Appalled vote for in the last two elections

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

I've always considered henry a sagacious chap.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

And maryrose. Well not the chap part.

[maryrose]

Iggy
Well said

[maryrose]

Thank you for the compliment and your comments are excellent

[NKonChrome]

TomM last graph. Too harsh and a bit smug if you ask me.

I wonder, where were the family Maguire ancestors in 1863 when the NYC Draft Riots began 200 feet below where I am now typing. The murderous irish and german immigrant mobs that committed acts of rebellion against the Union and murdered free blacks all over mid and lower Manhattan. What portion of collective guilt do current Maguires own for that? None obviously; David French is being the most understanding and Salan the most historically accurate here. Too many others are just preening holier than thou frauds who are making cheap politics out of important history (as maryrose rightly points out.)

[(A)Nuther Bub]

I can't criticize Obama for saying "nigger" instead of "the n-word." Goes without saying that it should not be hurled as an racial epithet -- as is true of any of the other insulting ethnic labels that once were more commonplace. But people who say "the n-word" when referring to its linguistic use sound like they're in kindergarten. . . or that they think their listeners are.

[Putin]

Democrats control Chicago and they had 48 murders in this May--one of their newspapers has a map--looks pretty well segregated to us, we might be missing something.

If you want to talk about truly atrocious racism allowed to run rampant your media could inform you about ISIS.

Instead during West Coast prime time CNN is showing this smug Anthony Bourdain cooking person.

I think on some level this is CNN admitting they have no true journalism and or ethics-hard to tell.

[NKonChrome]

henry-- blaming conservative christians; you mean the primary group of people who were the pre-civil war abolitionists? Those religious zealots who put the christian bible before the Federal Constitution and demanded the end of the sinful practice of slavery? those people?

[Threadkiller]

The Bundeswehr looks a hell of a lot like the Iron Cross.

How many were killed needlessly under that German symbol?

Ban them all.*

*Except the fag flag of course.

[lyle]

Michael Totten at Insty:

One need not wallow in silly conspiracy theories like Obama being a secret Muslim (Oren certainly doesn’t) to write something that’s critical, reasonable, and accurate. We all have our flaws and our blind spots. That includes every president we’ve ever had, even the current one.

If Barry were an openly avowed Muslim how would he act any different, Mr. Totten?

[NKonChrome]

that is not the issue Totten addresses. Until someone shows me Obummer on his prayer rug praying towards Mecca several times a day, I will continue to believe there is nothing in Obummer's heart... except Obummer. The relevant issue is his conduct, and that is what Totten and Oren address. That's a good thing.

[neal]

Well, a church has a cross, and that is offensive.
Maybe economic sanctions to erase that.

Maybe burn and kill all in noncompliance.

It is hard to impose that kind of order without erasure of meaning.

Why let history work it out when the will of the collective has spoken?
I guess the masses will do what they are told.
So much for resistance.

[lyle]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10587845965603524902004581052413081749674

Headline:

A Senate Majority Leader Worthy of the Title

Subhed:

Mitch McConnell has achieved more in six months than Democrats managed in years.

Authors: Bob Dole and Trent Lott

No further comment by me.

[sbw]

Deadthreaded:

Attended a meeting with a NYS Regent last night. He acquitted himself very well, pointing out Regents have no budget but what is approved by the governor, no staff (but two), are obliged to beg the State Ed Dept. for research, and are severely constrained by the federal government golden handcuffs.

My takeaway is twofold:
1) SED bureaucracies are co-opted by their beliefs and in charge.

2) We are on a runaway train. The country will continue to be ungoverned until it can re-establish efficient, effective operations paid for by reducing entitlements and income transfers, and that limits itself to essential services.

[lyle]

All of which is why we have both been impressed with Sen. McConnell’s leadership in these first months of the 114th Congress, perhaps best illustrated by the current bipartisan effort to give the president trade-promotion authority, also known as fast-track, in support of American jobs and exports. Tuesday’s 60-37 vote to break a filibuster clears the way for TPA to be signed by President Obama after a final Senate vote.

Uh huh. Because Barry is soooo concerned with American jobs and exports.

[henry]

Lyle, he's very good at exporting American jobs. Just look at who did system security for OPM.

[lyle]

Correctamundo, henry.

[sbw]

I will not let others hold me hostage to a history I did not create.

I will hold others responsible now for damage our descendants would learn to regret.

[Cecil Turner]

Well. At the risk of a Godwin's Law violation, I would note that German history is complicated and many Germans fought valiantly and honorably . . .

Yeah, well, in the first place that is a Godwin violation, in the second, it is fundamentally inapt. The Wermacht was hardly innocent of war crimes, and they were the best of the bunch. And of course the Nazi flag is closely associated with the worst crimes in history, as they fought an offensive struggle for world domination with ruthless disregard for the law of war. The CSA fought a fundamentally defensive war against hopeless odds to defend their homes; and for the most part honorably and well. It's not the same.

[James D]

If I had absolute power for a day, lyle's 1:44 link would be excellent evidence in the treason trials I'd be convening.

[Jane]

SBW,

I don't know if you saw my post that I got your package yesterday. I'm excited about it. Thank you!

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

maryrose you'd have to ask him because idk. I think he's an honest lib who gives a differing perspective which shouldn't be dismissed as trolling imo

[sbw]

Jane, I did see it. I have been “flying the plane first; talking on the radio second."

You are in the situation you can start at the very beginning... and perhaps recognize some things.

[lyle]

Here's more evidence for your trials, James:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/06/23/spike_it_when_the_media_kill_a_story_for_political_reasons_127088.html

[maryrose]

Lyle
You and I know where Bammys true feelings lie and it is not with the Judeo/Christian foundations of our wonderful country

[NKonChrome]

CecilT1:54-- hear hear. I would add one thing. The most used claim of CSA army atrocity is the horrific conditions at Andersonville POW camp. Yes there was privation and death for the union prisoners there; however that reflected the lack of resources all over the CSA armies. The lack of resources is why the CSA lost on the battlefield. And that is the worst CSA atrocity? Given the conduct of USA forces in 20th century wars, people should be ashamed to indict using Andersonville.

[Appalled]

maryrose:

Obama 2008
Romney 2012.

GOP Senate 2014
Dem Governor 2014

[Captain Hate]

Reading RCP's comments is so painful. I blame public education schools.

[maryrose]

I don't think Appalled is a troll
He just seems to be on the wrong side of the issues
I know in my heart he did not vote for Romney which leaves him pulling the lever for Hussein or not voting

[Appalled]

Mrose:

My comments to Extraneous and Cecil on the other thread were not intended as trolling. Ext's comment struck me as wrong as a matter of strategy. Cecil disagrees (on reasonable grounds that I think assumes this issue will stay in the forefront in 2016).

In all honesty, I think this issue will be long gone by 2016, and Soros could not pay me enough money to vote for Hillary. (Which will mean more money for DublinDave I guess)

[maryrose]

Why did you vote for a Dem governor and you were fooled by Obama in 2008
Didn't you hear Obama talk about spreading the wealth around
He's also for unlimited abortion and had zero experience
Not a very savvy choice

[Captain Hate]

Appalled isn't a liar and it's offensive to call him one after he answered your question. I knew that he was disappointed with the performance of 404 after 2008 because he stated that numerous times.

[Jeff Dobbs]

I am absolutely convinced that Appalled told us the truth about for whom he voted. No question at all in my mind.

[Captain Hate]

Death penalty to Tsarnaev. Please get it done before 404 pardons him on his way out the door.

[Stephanie]

"This is an emotional time and we all need to think through these issues with a care that recognizes the need for change but also respects the complicated history of the Civil War. The Confederate Battle Flag has wrongly been used for racist and other purposes in recent decades. It should not be used in any way as a political symbol that divides us.

But we should also remember that honorable Americans fought on both sides in the Civil War, including slave holders in the Union Army from states such as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware, and that many non-slave holders fought for the South. It was in recognition of the character of soldiers on both sides that the federal government authorized the construction of the Confederate Memorial 100 years ago, on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.

This is a time for us to come together, and to recognize once more that our complex multicultural society is founded on the principle of mutual respect."

Jim Webb???

[Appalled]

maryrose:

Nathan Deal (or Republican governor), like Harry Reid, entered office broke, and has emerged quite rich.

I have a problem with that. See my comments on Hillary for correlation.

[NKonChrome]

If Obummer pardons Tsarnaev 1/17... o brother.

[Captain Hate]

I still scrub myself with a steel brush and Lysol to remove the stigma of having voted for McRINO and RMoney.

[NKonChrome]

While mutual respect is an important American virtue, 'founded'? Where is that in the Dec Independence or Federal Constitution?

[narciso]

well the Stench of voting for Charlie Cheetah has finally washed off, but it was a code red,

I read the subtext, but also the text, the South has been the faction less gullible to both the Borgia and the Zaphod, most willing to support military and law enforcement, what understanding of liberty do they still have in the North, regretably they have sold their heritage for a cup of porridge,

[narciso]

I pointed out, Oren took one step to far, when Obama's social circle, from Davis to Ayers to Khaliili, most easily explains his behavior,

but it's not a crazy conjecture,

[NKonChrome]

I've mentioned 'history' a few times. When Civil War issues come up from time to time, I find this Blog very factual. As to who fought under the battle flag? 2/3rds of CSA troops had no connection to slavery, they fought for reasons other than keeping their own slaves:
http://deadconfederates.com/2011/04/28/ninety-eight-percent-of-texas-confederate-soldiers-never-owned-a-slave/

[Threadkiller]

President Obama Hosts a Ramadan Dinner at the White House and Lectures America About Muslims

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/06/351376-white-house-ramadan-dinner-obama-laments-distorted-view-muslims/

[narciso]

no Steorts, he was the one that threw Mark Steyn under the bus, when the Mamm battle, which was not of his choosing was happening,

[Captain Hate]

I'm sure there's something floating around Jim Webb's massive cranium that has "founded" on it. That aside, it was one of the more unobjectionable things he's said for years.

This is how you handle the enemy:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/06/pbs-host-unsuccessfully-tries-to-corner-ted-cruz-on-gun-control/

[maryrose]

This is the third time trying to post this
I posted before Appalled said who he voted for
I would never call anyone a liar
You guys (I know that's politically incorrect) should know me better by now
Glad he voted for Perdue instead of the dem daddy's girl trying to ride on her fathers coat tails
I don't regret my votes and have usually campaigned for the ones I vote for
I can agree to disagree with Appalled
Stephs got it about right in my opinion

[maryrose]

Deals a better governor than the dem candidate

[Extraneus]

Who distracted us into spending days Civil War navel-gazing when there are so many actually relevant things to talk and think about?

It was Nikki Haley.

[Appalled]

Hey Maryrose -- I figured it was just a timing issue, so no offense taken or even thought of.

[Jeff Dobbs]

So you're not appalled?

[Jane]

Geez you guys, Appalled is one of us.

SBW I'm reserving it for the trip down south.

1/19/17: Obama pardons the Boston Bomber. 1/20/17: President Walker revokes the pardon.

[maryrose]

We knew about Bill Clinton and Flowers before the first election and Hil tearful hand holding
Whilst Bill confessed all on60Minutes
It is why he didn't get over 50 percent
That and Perot
I wonder if Appalled voted for Clinton both times
I know others did on this blog so I won't ask for that information

[Appalled]

Jeff Dobbs:

It's too late in the day for existential questions like that. And by the way, Who's On First? (And if he plays for the Nationals, he's a bum!)

[narciso]

well I don't think so, but she fell for the strategem, Coulter often finds the worst way to put things forward,

[maryrose]

Actually I am disappointed in CH and Jeff
They threw me under the bus pretty quickly

[lyle]

If you haven't clicked on my 1:44, do so just for the pic. A skilled cartoonist could not have limned a better caricature of a turtle.

The comments read like a JOM thread.

[narciso]

As night follows day, Manchinpossum, comes back around, for background checks,

[lyle]

Here, I'll pull you out, maryrose.

[Marlene]

Howie Carr is discussing Tsarnaev. In a prepared statement Tsarnaev said," I did do it,along with my brother."
He apologized for the suffering he caused and the lives taken. He thanked the jury and praised Allah.
Howie mentioned that even the Boston Globe didn't call him a "tousled hair lad."

[Threadkiller]

It was Nikki Haley.

Anchor babies...

[Jane]

I'm surprised at the response to the bomber statement - "he is doing it for the appeal, to sway the judge, he doesn't mean it".

I think he meant it. I just don't give a shit about him or the statement. Fry him.

[Extraneus]

Would Root have failed a background check?

[Sandy--I Stand with Walker 2016--Daze ن]

Whelp...

The Navy thread was yesterday, I know, but the numbers of those of us who have had our records given to the ChiComs, that old number she just keeps rollin along. Now what are we up to, 34 million ?

Here's a news items that combines both the Navy and outrageous lack of IT professionalism. But if any read my rant from yesterday, you know lack of professionalism in the USN is de rigueur.

Date line 23 June 2015 NEWS ITEM: US Navy paid millions to stay on Windows XP
excerpt:

The U.S. Navy is paying Microsoft millions of dollars to keep up to 100,000 computers afloat because it has yet to transition away from Windows XP.

The Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command, which runs the Navy's communications and information networks, signed a $9.1 million contract earlier this month for continued access to security patches for Windows XP, Office 2003, Exchange 2003 and Windows Server 2003.

The entire contract could be worth up to $30.8 million and extend into 2017.

Falcon 101.

[narciso]

he's a predator, like Beevis, like Freddy Gray, who preyed upon his community, this is why the cops were sent to that corner,

[maryrose]

Thanks Lyle
I owe you one

[MarkO]

That Lincoln, what a racist:

"And I do further proclaim, declare, and make known that any provision which may be adopted by such state government in relation to the freed people of such state, which shall recognize and declare their permanent freedom, provide for their education, and which may yet be consistent as a temporary arrangement with their present condition as a laboring, landless, and homeless class, will not be objected to by the National Executive.

And it is suggested as not improper that, in constructing a loyal state government in any state, the name of the state, the boundary, the subdivisions, the constitution, and the general code of laws, as before the rebellion, be maintained, subject only to the modifications made necessary by the conditions hereinbefore stated, and such others, if any, not contravening said conditions, and which may be deemed expedient by those framing the new state government."

He totally forgot to ban the Confederate Flag, among other Progressive notions.

We always know better, don't we. Especially the Northern boys.

[Captain Hate]

I didn't mean to be offensive, maryrose. Btw I mentioned a few days ago about the possibility of North and Central Ohio JOMers (you, Ann and Buckeye) getting together later this summer or in the fall at a central location. I suggested the Inn adjacent to Malabar Farm. Buckeye seemed interested but I hadn't heard from you or Ann.

[NKonChrome]

Revoke a pardon? can that be done?(other than for fraud/corruption of course)

[maryrose]

Carmen Ortiz says crime wasn't about Islam

[maryrose]

The Boston bombing was all about Islamic terrorism
Ortiz is in denial

[Captain Hate]

A pardon is absolute, no? One of those executive/royalty perqs that the founding fathers were divided on?

[daddy]

According to WiKi The last (Capital Punishment) executions (in Massachusetts) were gangsters Philip Bellino and Edward Gertson on May 9, 1947, for the murder of Robert Williams, a former U.S. Marine.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Tsarnaev will die of natural causes many decades from now.

[Marlene]

Jane,his lawyers have 14 days for an appeal. Does that mean anything in the legal sense? Is his statement today a confession?

[sbw]

Jane: SBW I'm reserving it for the trip down south.

I hoped so. My radio voice will either keep you awake or put you to sleep before Providence.

Actually, what I do with Teaching Company CDs is hit the stop button when I tumble across a point I want to mull over.

1/19/17: Obama pardons the Boston Bomber. 1/20/17: President Walker revokes the pardon.

You fear the former and wish the latter. If O does the former . . . and in any case . . . I want at least an assessment of the damage done to the executive branch.

Then changes made. Among them, in no particular order:

1) Banning public unions that abused their trust.
2) Reviewing the free license extended to the DOJ, investigating malfeasance, and re-examining dropped cases.
3) Recalibrating the idea that centralization is a de facto good.
4) Reconsidering what size government needs to be to become minimally destructive.
5) Wholesale reconsideration of destructive regulations.
6) Reducing the IRS to a collection agency with simplified rules.
7) Removing all spokespeople.
8) Reducing government perks to the level of ordinary mortals.
9) Revoking all Obama executive orders.

Well, hell, its a start.

[Captain Hate]

Windows XP hasn't been supported since April 8, 2014. I guess the good news is they never changed to Vista; other than that it's turtles all the way down.

[Marlene]

daddy,that is exactly what Howie is saying.

[Threadkiller]

Will Allah's little bomber get a Koran and a rug? I hope Obama tells us about real Islam again.

[Rocco]

There was a very anti Irish and Catholic environment in the country during the Colonial Period. Boston's Elliot School Rebellion in 1859 sparked the parochial school system after Catholics were required by law to recite the Protestant Ten Commandments.

http://depts.washington.edu/civilr/kkk_i49.htm

[Captain Hate]

I hope Obama tells us about real Islam again.

Multiple terrorist attacks: Lone wolf/workplace violence

Nine people murdered in church: Bad national DNA.

[captain*arizona]

They died defending slavery. States rights? The right to do what? Own another human being thats what. Just as germans in world war two died to defend the murdering of other human beings. Nazi flag confederate flag same thing!

[lyle]

PJM quotes a Senator from CT;

“The fact is that every day 80 people are dying from guns. And, yes, it may be that the flying of the Confederate flag had a small part in the racist thoughts that led this young man to do such damage in Charleston. But if we’re not going to have a conversation about fixing our mental health system or passing expanded background checks or quite frankly getting this military style assault weapons that Walmart still sells at their stores with totally unqualified clerks to send them out to consumers, then we just haven’t done our duty,” Murphy said.

Shooter Dylann Roof used a .45-caliber Glock handgun, purchased legally at a gun store, in the attack.

I doubt this hack could tell the difference between the murder weapon and one of those scary "military style assault weapons." And I KNOW he would never supply the data on the race of those 80 people who "are dying" and the race of the killers.

[Marlene]

Rocco,there was a strong KKK influence in Maine also,against the Catholic French-Canadian and Irish immigrants. Their influence was also associated with the temperance movement. A Catholic priest,Father John Bapst was tarred and feathered in Ellsworth.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

"The Confederacy was a rebellion founded on the incoherent idea that the sovereign authority of the United States might be shucked off at the states’ pleasure,"

Incoherent? That Storts name rings a bell, and not a good one. I think he's said other foolishness.

I'd like to think I inspired TM's post with my Berlin ruminations on the last thread, though I took CT's view that the swastika analogy was completely inapt. I also took a bit of umbrage a couple threads back at Deb's suggestion that slavery was worse than the holocaust. Again, no comparison.

[NKonChrome]

Marlene-- that would be the 'second' KKK that was closely allied with the Dem-Progressive political movements which gave us prohibition and eugenics laws.

[maryrose]

Capt Arizona needs to learn his American history again

Captain H Early July or Late August are good for me no worries about previous posts I have Four brothers and get on with things pretty quickly
Will be near Akron on July 11th and August15th

[jimmyk on iPhone]

Has anyone noted that ISIS's latest hijinx is to put explosive collars on their captives and blow their heads off? But by all means, let's talk about a flag. Or LGBTQ issues.

[Rocco]

Worcester and Buffalo too!

[daddy]

Trying to get permission to drill up here is as bad as that old con game where you tried to decide which walnut shell the pea was hidden under:

Permit problem could be hangup in Shell’s Arctic drilling plans

Shell’s hopes of boring two wells in the Arctic Ocean this summer could be jeopardized by an obscure permitting requirement that effectively bars drilling operations close to each other in waters off Alaska.

The restriction could be a major stumbling block for the company, which has spent $7 billion and seven years pursuing oil in the region

Under a 2013 Fish and Wildlife Service regulation, those authorizations are not allowed for drilling activities happening within 15 miles of each other.

The two wells Shell wants to drill this summer are about 9 miles apart.

If the company is allowed to drill only one well at a time, regulators would still insist a second rig must be nearby to bore a relief well in case of an emergency.

[narciso]

he's a low end nazgul, who trawls various sites including the horde, between dobby and spunkmeyer,

I was reminded in Brand's Reagan bio, how Gorbachev was dinging Reagan with the same list of horribles, yet the Gipper wouldn't budge,

[Jane]

"Revoke a pardon? can that be done?(other than for fraud/corruption of course)"

At this point, what difference does it make?

Marlene, it's in Federal Court not state court and I assume within 14 days they have to send a piece of paper that says "Notice of Appeal".

To appeal they need to find errors of law made by the judge. Appellate lawyers are quite good at that. Clarice was an appellate lawyer, I believe, so she can tell us much more about it after her vacation.

[captain*arizona]

States rights? States don't have any rights dirt and rocks have rights? It is the people in those states who decided they had the right to own other people and when the rest of the American people said NO! These same white people decided the black people living around them had no right to vote. And do so to this day!

[maryrose]

Jimmyk
So true We are concerned about trivialities while terrorism is reaching new horrendous heights
I for one would not kneel down in front of terrorist they will kill you whether you start running or stand still

[Marlene]

I thought it was weird that Obama didn't attend one 150th anniversary Civil War commemoration,which just ended with an event at Appomattox Courthouse in April. I think the only time it was mentioned by anyone was when he didn't attend the Gettysburg address event.
I think I mentioned that we stopped at a family cemetery in the middle of nowhere in western Maine on last fall's Jeep trip. A young boy wounded at Gettysburg,who later died,is buried there,known only to God,his family and a few random Jeepers. I was very touched when I read his gravestone and to think that we are supposed to negate or forget history is a terrible thing.

[maryrose]

Too many people have been beheaded and the parents know that other than for Bergdahl Obama is useless
I would have tried to pay the money illegal or not
Obama by letting them get ransom money Obama is just

ust shirking his responsibility to get these hostages back home