So What About That Confederate Battle Flag?

NRO has an interesting give and take on the symbolic meaning of the Confederate battle flag. Here is Iraq war veteran David French:

Like many Southern boys, I grew up with two flags hanging in my room — an American flag and a Confederate battle flag. The American flag was enormous, taking up much of one wall. It was the “1776” flag, with 13 stars in a circle in the field of blue. My grandmother bought it for me on the bicentennial, and for years it was a treasured possession. The flag took on a special meaning later in life, when I learned more of a family history that included service with General Washington, suffering at Valley Forge.

The Confederate battle flag was much smaller, and it hung over my bookshelf. We bought it at the Shiloh battlefield in Tennessee, where one of my Confederate ancestors fought and where Albert Sidney Johnston died — the general that many considered the great hope of the Confederate Army in the West. My Confederate forefathers went on to fight at Vicksburg, at the battles of Franklin and Nashville, and in countless skirmishes across Tennessee and Mississippi. I grew up looking at old family pictures, including men who still wore their Confederate uniform for formal portraits — long after the war had ended.

So, family history and martial valor. However...

If the goal of our shared civic experience was the avoidance of pain, then we’d take down that flag. But that’s of course not the goal. Rather, we use history to understand our nation in all its complexity — acknowledging uncomfortable realities and learning difficult truths. 

...

It is telling that the South’s chosen, enduring symbol of the Confederacy wasn’t the flag of the Confederate States of America — the slave state itself — but the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, Robert E. Lee’s army. Lee was the reluctant Confederate, the brilliant commander, the man who called slavery a “moral and political evil,” and the architect — by his example — of much of the reconciliation between North and South. His virtue grew in the retelling — and modern historians still argue about his true character — but the symbolism was clear. If the South was to rebuild, it would rebuild under Lee’s banner.

Since that time, the battle flag has grown to mean many things, including evil things. Flying it as a symbol of white racial supremacy is undeniably vile, and any official use of the flag for that purpose should end, immediately. Flying it over monuments to Confederate war dead is simply history. States should no more remove a Confederate battle flag from a Confederate memorial than they should chisel away the words on the granite or bulldoze the memorials themselves.

Jason Lee Steorts doesn't buy it:

Whether you think it’s all right for South Carolina to fly a Confederate battle flag over a Confederate memorial on its capitol grounds depends on whether you think that the Confederate war dead should be honored. If you do, then you can, as David French does, see the flag as a symbol of their valor and skill while decrying its use by white supremacists.

This strikes me as a whitewash of both the flag and the Confederacy. The Confederacy was a rebellion founded on the incoherent idea that the sovereign authority of the United States might be shucked off at the states’ pleasure, and the Confederacy’s primary reason for being was to preserve racial slavery — that is, to violate natural rights rather than to secure them. That is what Confederate soldiers fought for. Whatever else their battle flag may mean, it has to mean that. It did not become a banner of white supremacy in the mid 20th century when racial segregationists took it up. It was a banner of white supremacy, and of lawlessness, from the beginning.

Reihan Salan reviews the history and comes away suggesting that the use of the flag morphed from honoring the Confederate veterans and dead to resisting the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. This is from a study he excerpted:

From the end of the Civil War until the late 1940s, display of the battle flag was mostly limited to Confederate commemorations, Civil War re-enactments, and veterans’ parades. The flag had simply become a tribute to Confederate veterans. It was during that time period, only thirty years after the end of the war and fifty years before the modern civil rights movement, that Mississippi incorporated the battle flag into its own state flag – well before the battle flag took on a different and more politically charged meaning.

In 1948, the battle flag began to take on a different meaning when it appeared at the Dixiecrat convention in Birmingham as a symbol of southern protest and resistance to the federal government – displaying the flag then acquired a more political significance after this convention. Georgia of course, changed its flag in 1956, two years after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. In 1961, George Wallace, the governor of Alabama, raised the Confederate battle flag over the capitol dome in Montgomery to commemorate the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War. The next year, South Carolina raised the battle flag over its capitol. In 1963, as part of his continued opposition to integration, Governor Wallace again raised the flag over the capitol dome. Despite the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War, the likely meaning of the battle flag by that time was not the representation of the Confederacy, because the flag had already been used by Dixiecrats and had become recognized as a symbol of protest and resistance. Based on its association with the Dixiecrats, it was at least in part, if not entirely, a symbol of resistance to federally enforced integration. Undoubtedly, too, it acquired a racist aspect from its use by the Ku Klux Klan, whose violent activities increased during this period. However, it is important to remember that in spite of these other uses, there remained displays of the battle flag as homage to the Confederate dead, with no racist overtones.

Well. At the risk of a Godwin's Law violation, I would note that German history is complicated and many Germans fought valiantly and honorably during WWII. But despite its long history of other meanings we don't see Nazi flags at German war cemeteries, and, although tributes to conventional German soldiers are within bounds, the politics of a cemetery which includes the Waffen SS are deeply fraught. 

People who wanted to reserve the battle flag for honoring the soldiers of the Civil War should have piped up when that flag was politicized by the leaders of the retrograde South. They're a bit late now.

 

Comments

[Marlene]

NK... yes,the 1920s.

[maryrose]

Marlene
Last year wS the 150th celebration at Chicamauga
They said events occurred on the hour reliving events
Obama s history is in Indonesia
He has no roots or connections here

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

--Would Root have failed a background check?--

No. He in fact passed one. NICS only covers convictions and presumably legal institutionalization for mental illness.
If one is a drug abuser or is under indictment those questions are asked on the 4473 but it is strictly the honor system as there are no records for NICS to check on in those cases.

[NKonChrome]

1919-1924, especially the 1924 Dem Party Convention was the high point of the Klan. The 18th Amendment/Volstead Act had passed, so a lot of german/catholic beer brewers were quickly bankrupted. The KKK-Progs then moved on to eugenics laws to protect the gene pool. The KKK's influence quickly faded and it withdrew back to the South when the Depression hit and deepened. The 21st amendment repealing prohibition marked the end of the KKK-Prog national movement. Oddly enough, the anti-immigration KKK goal was realized as there was a 40 year pause in mass-immigration from the start of the depression all the way to Ted Kennedy opening the floodgates in 1966. That massive immigration continues to this day.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

--States rights? States don't have any rights dirt and rocks have rights?--

Have you ever read the 10th amendment, boy genius?

[Rocco]

Those murderous Irish mobs

Irish Catholic Pats fan! "til the "bitter end"

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Appalled is the opposite of a troll.
He very, very seldom gets angry or insulting even when insulted by others and he is always interested in discussing the issues not flaming people or making pointlessly provocative comments just to get a reaction.

[NKonChrome]

Appalled is unfailingly polite. It's very easy to disagree with or ignore their comments.

[NKonChrome]

today's ignorant jackass on the other hand.

[narciso]

mind you, they are on the antiCAIR, IS now:

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=357493

[Rocco]

I've been thinking about joining the Knights! Think I will!

http://www.kofc.org/un/en/columbia/detail/549315.html

[lyle]

Taranto:

A story in today’s New York Times ends with this anecdote:

In Austin, Tex., a tall bearded man went into the tattoo parlor where Kelly Barr works with a request: the removal [of] a 10-year-old tattoo of the Confederate flag.

He told Mr. Barr that he had decided to get the flag removed when he saw the pained look on a middle-age black woman at his gym on Monday.

“ ‘If South Carolina can take theirs down,’ ” Mr. Barr recalled him saying, “ ‘I can take mine down.’ I told him, ‘Right on.’ ”

We hope this story is true, though it appears too good to check unless the tall, bearded, formerly tattooed man comes forward to identify himself.

Anyone believe this? I don't, not from that rag.

[Rick Ballard]

Appalled is also actually Moderate. Definitely a First Circle candidate.Trolls, OTOH, will wind up in the Fourth, Fifth, Eighth or Ninth Circle, depending upon their particular depravity. DuDa will spend eternity doing the the entire circuit, less the First.

[NKonChrome]

and there were of course infamous Irish mobs rioting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

[narciso]

he was once a pretty solid middle east scholar, but not since he went strigoi,

http://www.weaselzippers.us/227336-university-of-michigan-professor-blames-far-right-wing-jews-and-islamophobes-for-charleston-shooting/

[Marlene on Kindle]

maryrose,we've been to Chickamauga. My parents lived in the mid-south for 25 years before returning to NH.We used to bring the daughter to visit her grandparents and we brought her to lots of historical sites.

[NKonChrome]

Walker rarely disappoints me, and often impresses me: http://hotair.com/archives/2015/06/24/scott-walker-defies-gravity-will-sign-two-new-gun-rights-bills/

[narciso]

I guess he's just wee wee'd up"

http://www.weaselzippers.us/227326-pathetic-white-house-blames-white-male-resentment-for-obama-failures-on-gun-control-race-relations/

[narciso]

well they do have more common interests:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/2015/06/24/russia-and-egypt-rekindle-relations/

so does the Kingdom on balance,

[Jeff Dobbs]

Hey, NK - I just shot you an email.

[lyle]

From narc's 4:47:

Few anticipated that his presence in the White House would become a flashpoint for racial anxiety as well. “If you are a white man in America, this country is changing dramatically. You have always been in charge,” said a senior administration official who spoke on the condition of anonymity be candid. “So there is something to white men feeling like something has been taken away from them.”

What this white man feels has been taken from him is the integrity of the office of POTUS currently occupied by a fraud who lied himself into it by promising racial healing and a united country and then set out and intentionally accomplished the precise opposite.

[narciso]

the Bezos Post is often still just above fishwrap,

question why is the official unnamed, although I can think of five names off the top,

[lyle]

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/24/even-if-obama-loses-king-v-burwell-republicans-will-still-screw-it-up/

Yep. This also related:

http://www.wsj.com/article/SB11670627175020993366304581065564178308644.html

[narciso]

just more malpractice,

http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2015/06/24/marilyn-mosby-urges-young-people-to-use-freddie-gray-case-to-form-a-movement/

[narciso]

steorts is running into just a bit of turbulence in the comments,

[maryrose]

Narciso
What five names are you thinking of besides Holder who is already gone
My bet is ValJar

[maryrose]

Obama had the least number of white men vote for him in the last election

[maryrose]

We loved the battlefield and you could really imagine how the battle ensued

[narciso]

she's the most obvious, looking broadly I could see Secretaries Castro, Perez, Lynch, and probably Lurch, yes lack of self awareness on his part,

[Extraneus]

You'll probably meet a few of my cousins and their kids who are also members, Rocco. They're up in your neck of the woods and love the KofC.

[narciso]

neither choice seems reputable,

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/06/ban-ki-moon-shakes-hands-with-alleged-al-qaeda-emir.php

[NKonChrome]

Well now we know why that little fraud has moved for a court order barring publication of the coroner's report (too late now)... the coroner ruled it an accidental death, because the little twerp either stood up or at least sat up shackled in the van and fell from that position and injured himself. That lying little bitch.... she needs to wind up like the Durham N.C.DA.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/23/autopsy-freddie-gray-likely-got-to-his-own-feet-before-suffering-head-injury-in-baltimore-police-van/

[Miss Marple]

http://thehill.com/opinion/lanny-davis/246042-lanny-davis-have-they-lost-all-sense-of-shame

Seriously, the eternal Clinton groupie asks if Trey Gowdy has no sense of shame.

I told The Hill that THEY had no sense of shame for publishing Davis.

[narciso]

it's been a while, since we've seen Lanny go full Vizzini,

when everybody insists something is the correct conclusion, which always happens to dove tail with Dem party objectives, I tend to doubt it,

[NKonChrome]

LannyD has to humiliate himself now; Hilligula is his easy money meal ticket. If she goes down in flames, he'll have to actually work for a living.

[Threadkiller]

https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/06/splc-issues-hit-list-of-u-s-women-against-sharia-law/

Birthers too:
http://www.birtherreport.com/2015/06/danger-obama-tied-leftist-group-splc.html?m=1

JATFI

[henry]

So, did Lanny just get served his own subpoena?

[narciso]

like the scorpion 'it's in Lanny's nature' like when he represented the Pakistani junta that had deposed Bhutto in the 90s,

[lyle]

Of course Davis cites McArthyism. It's all so utterly predictable I could be a dem strategist.

[Porchlight]

I'm hopelessly behind, but thank you Rick Ballard for linking that excellent essay on Hamilton in the last thread. Here it is again for those who may have missed it:

http://blog.mpettis.com/2015/06/please-mr-lew-do-not-diminish-alexander-hamilton/

Did I mention yet today that I hate the left?

[narciso]

it's so much like 'Shelley's Heart, when they investigate the leftist cabal, McCarry should ask for royalties,

[Janet]

President Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast 2015 - “Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ,” Obama said. “In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.” (note - ISIS had just burned alive a Jordanian pilot who was a hostage held in a cage)

President Obama at the Iftar dinner 2015 - "The koran teaches that god's children should tread gently upon the earth - & when confronted by ignorance reply, "Peace". In honoring these familiar values together - of peace, charity & forgiveness - we affirm that whatever our faith, we are all one family."

[Porchlight]

Says it all, Janet.

[Gentlejim]

Good on Walker for his intent to sign those two bills and kudos to the WI legislature for getting the bills to his desk.

Any guesses as to what the next "look, squirrel" moment will be? I'm having difficulty coming up with a new scandal since so many horrible things have happened the last several years. What else could be on the horizon? What will the Left's distraction be?

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Here's an idea;
Rather than a flag, affirmative action, right wing Jews, left wing agitators, Christians (huh?), the NRA or the Brady Campaign, hows about we blame the one guy responsible for the shooting: Dylann Roof?
He is an adult and does not seem legally insane and purposely chose by his own little self what he did. Millions of people brought up in far worse circumstances don't do what he did so lets look no further than we need to; the black heart of an evil little monster.

[Janet]

Anyone believe this? I don't, not from that rag.

or how about this, lyle -

Iftar dinner remarks -

"We saw this play out recently at a mosque in Arizona. A group of protestors gathered outside with offensive signs against Islam and Muslims. And then the mosque’s leaders invited them inside to share in the evening prayer. One demonstrator, who accepted the invitation later, described how the experience changed him; how he finally saw the Muslim American community for what it is -- peaceful and welcoming."

Really?...What was his name?

[narciso]

interesting he should use, the passage, that the GZ Mosque promoters were pushing:

http://www.thecordobafoundation.com/attach/peace_leaflet_muslim_final.pdf

it's a rather unique passage among the main body,

[jimmyk]

I enjoyed the Hamilton essay too. I've read the Chernow biography and had very much the same impressions of Hamilton, though I could not have worded it as well. Overwhelmingly positive, but perhaps temperamentally not ideally suited for leadership. He was in some ways the Ted Cruz of his day.

[NKonChrome]

AllahPundit nails the tragedy that is Jim Webb. He rode the anti-Iraq Prog wave into the 2006 Senate election, and now the Progs have devoured him. http://hotair.com/archives/2015/06/24/democratic-presidential-candidate-jim-webb-lets-settle-down-about-the-confederate-flag-okay/

[Buckeye]

Enjoying Jindal's announcement speech.

Saying what needs to be said with no turd polishing.

[Stephanie]

Jindal was awesome.

[narciso]

re Jindal's detractor, a crawfish Sabato with a little moonbat thrown in:

http://theind.com/article-20632-posthaste-vs-pearson-cross.html

[NKonChrome]

Jindal definitely has a place in the conservative movement (sorry TK)

[Miss Marple]

Jindal was pretty good.

I noticed he used Trump's "we don't have victories anymore" idea, rephrased and quoting Patton.

Excellent. It shows he is paying attention and can read the mood of the electorate, which is a very good thing.

[Extraneus]

I liked the Chernow book, too, and thought it amazing how Hamilton decided to handle the blackmail matter. As Chernow went over the back and forth between Hamilton and Burr that led to the duel, I kept thinking of what Hamilton should have done instead, but it seemed that there was no other way but to go through with it, even though he had no desire to kill Burr. Of course, Burr's heart wasn't quite so clean.

[narciso]

'not a trace of malpractice'

http://twitchy.com/2015/06/24/historic-transparency-obama-admin-reportedly-took-steps-to-dodge-disclosure-on-full-scope-of-opm-hack/

[narciso]

chris hughes's little fanzine, is just nazgul droppings,

http://twitchy.com/2015/06/24/bigots-are-on-parade-tnrs-ethnicity-cops-set-their-sights-on-bobby-jindal-dinesh-dsouza/

[Miss Marple]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/23/every-state-flag-is-wrong-and-here-is-why/

This actually made me laugh, something sorely needed today.

All 50 flags pictured, in case you didn't know what some looked like. (I didn't.)

[Threadkiller]

His place just isn't as POTUS, NK. The plain language of The Constitution forbids it.

[narciso]

'go home, Connecticut, you're drunk, lol,

[Jeff Dobbs]

Via Hot Air...There goes Plan A, plan b, plan c, plan d...all the way through plan Kay. Dems have to come up with Plan L if they want a shot at winning the Senate seat in NC in 2016.

Former North Carolina Sen. Kay Hagan will not be mounting a challenge to her former GOP colleague, Sen. Richard M. Burr.

Hagan, who was defeated by Thom Tillis in 2014, has been making calls to inform donors she will not be running for the seat that comes up in 2016, two sources familiar with the calls told Roll Call.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Interesting viewpoint, if not already linked; I am a black South Carolinian. Here’s why I support the Confederate flag.

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

Funny stuff, MM.

[jimmyk]

Incidentally, when I said Hamilton was the Ted Cruz of his day, I didn't mean that to be a criticism of either, just a personality description. Both brilliant, self-assured, uncompromising. We might need more of that today than was needed back in the 1790s.

[Threadkiller]

From the speech:

As for me, I’m sick and tired of people dividing Americans. And I’m done with all this talk about hyphenated Americans. We are not Indian-Americans, Irish – Americans, African– Americans, rich Americans, or poor Americans – we are all Americans.

See, I knew he was distancing himself from his Foriegn allegiance. Just like Cruz.

Did anyone catch that he forgot to mention that his mama was knocked up when she and his dad wanted to get in on the American experiment?

[Cispigmented Heteronormative Microagressive Ignatz]

So TK, do you read the Constitution as actually saying Natural Conceived Citizen?

[NKonChrome]

TK-- regarding Jindal, I was referring to his philosophy of building coalitions in the conservative movement. He's too aloof to ever be nominated for POTUS, so no eligibility disputes there.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

That Twichy collection of tweets slattering the melanin challenged Children of the Cornhole was hilarious. Plus whatever dickhole wrote that piece of trash article should travel to Delhi if he wants to see how "real Indians" think about the rock worshiping vermin while still being respectful of their shrines, a courtesy which would never be reciprocated.

404 needs to stop talking about the Crusades if he wants to be remembered as being smarter than Costanza.

[maryrose]

Jeff
Without Hagan Dems got bupkis
She is probably still angry that the Dems sunk so much money in the Kentucky and Georgia race and left her and Landrieu hanging

[Stephanie]

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/06/352652-obama-gets-pissed-kicks-trangender-illegal-immigrant-out-of-white-house/

Pissy prissy prezzy.

[narciso]

oh I forgot he it Jeet Heer, he's a vicious punk mostly known for misreading Strauss, and he's Canadian if memory serves,

[Threadkiller]

So TK, do you read the Constitution as actually saying Natural Conceived Citizen?

No

[Jim Miller]

On a much more pleasant subject, it seem sto me that this suggestion for the ten dollar bill deserves a Photoshop.

(I could do that simple task, but it would probably take me a half day or more, since it has been so long since I have used any photo program.)

And there is no shortage of photos of the famous actress I am suggesting, half seriously, that we honor.

(BTW, although everyone seems to think that a woman would have to displace Hamilton, I don't see why we couldn't have both, or even more than two kinds, of tens.)

[Jeff Dobbs]

Sorry, Obama's a half-black US citizen who's ::cough cough:: heterosexual 1%er.

Who the hell does he think he is talking to a transgendered undocumented future American like that?11?!?!!?!!?!?

That guy's at least 4 rungs above Obama on the inverted privilege ladder.

[narciso]

maybe the second one from the top:

http://m-aider.blogspot.com/2011/07/marilyn-monroe.html

[Marlene on Kindle]

MM @ 6:30...funny. Do you know that Maine's motto Dirigo translates to Wicked Good? :)

[narciso]

lets just call the whole thing off:

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-iran-deal-legacy-hit-many-misses-050907277.html

[Jim Miller]

narciso - I like all of those choices.

[Rick Ballard]

I wonder if Hagan has Bad Moon Rising playing in the background when she advises donors not to waste their money?

After all, it's the Fascist Party theme song for '16. And '18. And '20.

[narciso]

well I do to, but that's the only one which would work on currency,

[narciso]

notice how Salam leaves Hollings out of the narrative,

[narciso]

king zaphod, does get testy about commoners, doesn't he?

[Threadkiller]

Remember when he kicked the fruitcakes off the Whitehouse fence and the fruitcake reporters out of Lafayette park?

[Babara]

lets just call the whole thing off

If only, narc. Kerry and O will promise Iraq anything if only they will please, please, please sign some sort of agreement whatever it requires the US to do so that O can have his LEGACY.

[narciso]

I know he was pretending 7 years ago, but for the sake of the meme"

http://twitchy.com/2015/06/24/you-spelled-i-wrong-obama-again-proves-his-self-awareness-is-on-permanent-vacation/

[Babara]

Oops! Make that Iran

[Stephanie]

Anyone know what it means when you can see your facebook page, but it won't share or post anything? Have I been zapped? I sent them a report, and I haven't gotten a nastygram, so I'm not sure what's up.

[narciso]

but he was such a nice lad:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/04/gitmo-terrorist-who-killed-army-sgt-lived-at-bin-laden-compound-freed-in-canada/

[henry]

Telephone town hall w/ Paul Ryan. He's getting hammered on TPA. Claims it gives Congress more control over Obama than they have over say Iran deal. Don't know about that, but it is good for him to get pressed by Racine County.

[Threadkiller]

McClintock claims the same thing, Henry.

[henry]

Claims it helps on Chinese IP theft. That's a real problem, but without seeing the deal, how can anyone say that? Good generic argument for trade agreements, but implies some trust of our negotiators.

[Babara]

If the TPA was such a good deal, why didn't the proponents explain what the agreement entailed and why it was so beneficial to American citizens and businesses before they concocted their deceitful scheme to pass it? We all know the answer to that, and so do they.

A pox on all of them!

[DrJ]

why didn't the proponents explain what the agreement entailed ...

It has not been negotiated yet.

[Threadkiller]

I missed out on the scheme. So far the TPA is passing (I haven't checked out today's results though) as a stand alone bill.

[Buckeye]

So I checked out the clip of Zero giving the boot to the heckler in the WH.

He belittled the guy for misbehaving in "my house"

Hey Zero, get a clue. It is OUR house that we are providing to you rent free.

What's this "my" shit?

[daddy]

So if PBS fires Black Professor "Skip" Gates for intentionally hiding Ben Afleck's "Racist" ancestry, can Gates sue PBS for "Racism"?

[Threadkiller]

The TPA has been negotiated. By both the Senate and the House.

[Babara]

It has not been negotiated yet.

Good catch. Make that Authority to Negotiate.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Can I sue PBS for employing Tavis Smiley? Even my lib friends hate him.

[narciso]

well in a vizzini way, she's correct: