Back To That Darn Battle Flag

It's a fine day for South Carolina and a fine day for demagoguing Democrats as the Confederate battle flag makes the news twice.

South Carolina strikes the flag:

When Ms. Haley signed the bill Thursday, she praised lawmakers and declared that the flag’s removal should be seen as a historic moment. “I am very proud to say that it is a great day in South Carolina,” she said.

And back in Washington, Nancy Pelosi successfully ambushed the Republican leadership. The issue is complicated, but the Times buries the nuance and opens with celebration:

Republicans Yield as Confederate Flag Issue Roils Congress

WASHINGTON — The anguished national debate over the future of the Confederate flag exploded on the House floor on Thursday as Democrats, led by black members from the South, beat back a push by Republicans to allow Confederate symbols at national cemeteries.

Coming less than 24 hours after the South Carolina House voted to remove the Confederate battle flag from the capitol grounds in Columbia , the spectacle of the United States House pressing for its continuing display was an embarrassment Republican leaders could not accept, and they withdrew the bill from the floor.

“There’s not any room on federal property for the display of the Confederate battle flag,” said Representative John Lewis, Democrat of Georgia, a leader of the civil rights movement who in 1965 was nearly beaten to death at the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Ala., by club-wielding police officers, some of whom had Confederate flags painted on their helmets. “It represents the dark past as a symbol of separation, a symbol of division, a symbol of hate.”

As a matter of substance, the Republican amendment was modest. It would have permitted displays of the flag in federal cemeteries on one day a year, Confederate memorial day, which is celebrated in nine states. It would also have allowed the sale of the flag on souvenir items that conform to National Park Service guidelines.

At first read, a ban on the display of the Confederate battle flag on federal property doesn't seem unreasonable, especially when set in the context of the South Carolina decision. But much later in the story, we are presented with some nuance:

But the Southern Republicans stood their ground on displaying the flag at national cemeteries. Representative Mick Mulvaney, Republican of South Carolina, said he strongly supported removing the flag from the State House grounds in Columbia, but, he said, “This is very, very different.”

“Spending taxpayer money on the flag, and displaying it on a public monument, may be one thing; preventing private citizens from doing it on graves is very different,” he said.

Hmm. Unless I have missed something since Virginia v. Black (and why does Virginia get the cool case names?) this is not a complicated free speech issue at all - if cross burning can be tolerated when it is symbolic (but not directly threatening) free speech, surely the Confederate battle flag should be legal for an individual to display. On their own property.

But the government can set limits on speech on government property:

The freedom of speech protection provided by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution allows people to fly the confederate flag on their own property. However, the Government is not required to permit all forms of speech on public property. The legality of flying a confederate flag in public areas depends upon whether the area is designated as a public forum, limited public forum, or nonpublic forum.
Traditional public forums include public streets, sidewalks, and parks, while limited or designated public forums include public auditoriums or theaters. The Government may restrict speech in these forums if the restriction is narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling government interest. Nonpublic forums include areas such as airports and cemeteries; the Government is allowed to restrict speech in nonpublic forums so long as the restriction is reasonable and not an effort to suppress expression because public officials oppose the speaker’s view.

Multiple courts have upheld restrictions prohibiting confederate flags from being displayed in cemeteries, while courts in some states (such as South Carolina and Alabama) have approved the display of the confederate flag atop state buildings. Although a person is free to fly a confederate flag at their own home, one could potentially be restricted from doing so in a public place.

And a key case seems to be Griffin v. Dept. of Veteran Affairs. A federal judge ruled in favor of an ongoing, privately sponsored display of the battle flag at Point Lookout Cemetery, a Civil War cemetery. An appeals court reversed in favor of the Dept. of Veterans Affairs rules, which allowed the flag to be displayed two days a year. 

Which means that when the fiery John Lewis says "There’s not any room on federal property for the display of the Confederate battle flag”, he would be on safe ground in barring any federally sponsored display of the flag, and that could reasonably extend to gift shop displays. But if a citizen walks into a federal cemetery wearing a denim jacket with a battle flag on the back, or carrying a battle-themed handbag, will they be subject to arrest? I would be surprised. And if they place a flag on an ancestor's grave, what then?

I guess it hinges on the meaning of "display" - is a flag atop a thirty foot flagpole sending a different message from a small flag adorning a grave? One might argue that the former requires cooperation from the park owner, since that flagpole didn't just grow there. On the other hand, a flag on a grave could easily be construed as a private, non-state sponsored moment of expression. On the third hand, if the currently controversial amendment was allowing display just one day a year, that suggests it is already against the rules the rest of the year, so completing the ban ought to be within the government's scope. And on the final hand, a flag on Confederate Memorial Day might be "obviously" commemorating the war dead in a way that would be less obvious on other days. 

And what rules do these Democrats envision for Civil War re-enactors? Gettysburg is a national park - what flag do they suggest for the folks re-enacting Pickett's charge? (Outwaiting the re-enactors may be the easy way out).

I can see why Boehner wants to punt:

Republican leaders realized that they did not have the votes to pass the amendment reinstating flag displays, or the votes to pass the spending bill without the amendment. So they were left to pull the underlying bill from consideration.

Mr. Boehner then called for an informal working group to review all Confederate symbols at the Capitol, such as on flags and statues and in paintings, and beyond.

“We all witnessed the people of Charleston and the people of South Carolina come together in a respectful way to deal with, frankly, a very horrific crime and a difficult issue with the Confederate flag,” Mr. Boehner said. “I actually think it’s time for some adults here in the Congress to actually sit down and have a conversation about how to address this issue.”

If the adults in Congress are meeting they won't need a large room.

 

Comments

[henry]

Can we ban anyone who used a Confederate Flag image on campaign materials from running for or holding Federal office? That might remove a bunch of the non-adults (as well as Hilligula) from their perch at the tough.

[GUS]

I had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT CONFEDERATE FLAG CACKLE CACKLE

[Jeff Dobbs]

Aw, man - this means no Trump thread.

[henry]

Jeff, just put his hair on a battle flag. it's all good.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

It should take only a few more comments and it won't even be a battle flag thread, Jeff.

Like always.

;-)

[henry]

Archuleta tossed like a Confederate Battle flag (per WSJ tweet).

[squaredance]

That idiots the GOP "leaders" are. How easily manipulated they are with all this PC nonsense.

They will most certainly lose many more votes than they gain from this. Fell right into a trap, and trap it was.

If you do not think that this sort of attack was planned long before Charleston, and that they were just waiting for an "incident" to fall out of all their provocations, then you are not paying attention.

Mark my words, this was just a dress rehearsal for something much more sinister.

If the GOP would have just laughed them off the stage when they first started this agitprop, then it would have all blown away.

It all plays into Hillary's hands. It will not turn the tide, but it is one more chip, one more group of voters that the GOP has turned off.

What contempt both parties have for the rest of us.

The country is all but gone.

[Man Tran]

A little Friday humor:

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is you can never tell if they're genuine."

-- Winston Churchill

"The greatest thing about the Internet is that you can quote something and just totally make up the source."

-- Benjamin Franklin

"The people who invented the Internet would never have gotten around to doing it if they'd had the Internet."

-- Thomas Edison

[henry]

More no-flag humor from our lurking friend.

[Jeff Dobbs]

But I was going to really just try to piss everyone off about Trump. Like toeing up to the TOO Amok line and everything.

A real F-It-All Friday FoofeRAAAAAWWWWRRRRRRR

Now I just have going to the beach with the family to look forward to.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[henry]

Don't forget the sharks Jeff. They like bacon flavored sunscreen.

[squaredance]

Here

Just obscene. Pure Maoist assualts on this nation. It really will not stop until either they are defeated r the entire white race in this country is destroyed.

[Janet - I wish my family had a poncho]

Civil War Flags

http://www.united-states-flag.com/cociwar.html

[narciso]

21 million records hacked a year ago, if they offered this as a script, like the movie Blackhat it would be rejected.

The economy is going minion, so is the army, the va is operating even worse, Kathy steiner might as well be an unperson as far the authorities are concern, so yeah wolverines!

[Captain Hate]

Per Tammy Bruce: Archuleta resigns.

[narciso]

So doc brown raised 15 million, summon the Flux capacitor

[Captain Hate]

Confederate flags not involved in Archuleta resignation. Donald Trump? TBD.

[Appalled]

Mr. Dobbs:

I do think Mr. Trump needs an encore -- as the blither blather from the last set of useless provocations is going to die down, and people are threatening to pay attention to stuff like China stock markets and Greeks bearing debts, and Iranian negotiations that are almost as serious a thing as the Donald himself.

So, let me humbly suggest, in the spirit of this thread, that Mr. Trump loudly and proudly (is there any other way with him) buy up the SC Confederate Flag (he's got a few billion of net worth lying around, so he says), and fly that sucker proudly on top of one of his casinos. While some may say its too radical, and the GOPe will be taking hacksaws to their wrists, the only way to get any notice in this country for Conservative values is to have a non-Conservative parody them.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Maybe he should co-opt the Rainbow Flag and get your "can be dazzled by Obama's accomplishments" vote.

[Thomas Collins]

Tell me the GOP isn't totally stupid. Tell me there is already filed companion bills in the House and Senate to remove a variety of flags and images progs love from federal property. Here are a few to start out. I'm sure the brilliant GOP Senators and House members can think of more:

-Che

-Mao

-Stalin

-Hamas flag

-Castros

-ISIS flag

-Eyeranian flag

-North Korean flag

[henry]

TC, Mexican Flag.

[Thomas Collins]

The Dems have provided an opening for the GOP in the area of flags and symbols if the GOP doesn't blow it.

[Theo]

Trump is a buffoon. But I guess, per Ace, there are a lot of people who think that he speaks for them. I am not sure why they think so -- I assume it is ignorance of all the many different things that he has said over the years. Yes, he is tapping into some sort of populist anger but seriously folks, he is a buffoon.

[Thomas Collins]

Does LaRaza have a flag, henry? I would allow the Mexican flag, but ban any LaRaza symbol.

[Thomas Collins]

Following up on henry's thought, I would find out the flags and images used by Mexican gangs and other US gangs, and ban those.

[Eric in Boise]

Confederate flags not involved in Archuleta resignation. Donald Trump? TBD.

"You're fired!!"

Archuleta isn't qualified to be an apprentice to an apprentice to an apprentice.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Ace is the place to determine buffoonery.

[henry]

TC good call. Perhaps a ban on Federal $$$ to schools which ban the US Flag (and fly the Mexican one, because white privilege or some crap).

[Appalled]

TK:

If ever there was a case of "leading from behind" (meant in the literal, not in the dirty minded sense), it was Obama on single sex marriage. Heck, it took Joe Biden to get him to that position, and he was mad about it.

[Thomas Collins]

Yes, henry. The progs are always threatening to withhold federal funds for this and that. Let's show them two can play the game.

And let Obama threaten to veto a bill withholding federal funds for schools that don't fly the American flag.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

The NYT either doesn't know what "loophole" means, or it is trying to mislead people into thinking that Roof's gun purchase was the consequence of inadequate regulations (due to the evil gun lobby, no doubt) as opposed to government incompetence in carrying out the law.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/background-check-flaw-let-dylann-roof-buy-gun-fbi-says.html

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

So his lack of accomplishments in the gay department wasn't what garnered your vote?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--The Dems have provided an opening for the GOP in the area of flags and symbols if the GOP doesn't blow it.--

Doesn't that dependent clause pretty much negate the rest?

[Theo]

I guess the ultimate progressive position is that background checks and other regulations are not immune from error and the only real solution is to ban all firearms. That is the ONLY way to ensure that only criminals have guns.

I live in Chicago and I can tell you just how effective the handgun ban here was. But you could just look up the homicide by gun statistics.

[Eric in Boise]

Back On topic: Someone observed that Six Flags Entertainment might need to change their name to Five Flags. The name refers to the six flags that have governed Texas, and guess what one of them is?

Yep. The CSA flag.

It's not the Stars and Bars, though, so maybe nobody will notice.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

The ban should include any current or historical Democratic Party logos as well.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Well, there is something that could be characterized as a loophole. Normally the NICS response is a matter of seconds. If there is a delay while the FBI researches records it notifies the FFL there is a delay.
If the NICS takes longer than three days from the delay notification, the FFL, at his discretion, can make the transfer but he is not required to.
I could see this incident leading to a change in that reg.

[Eric in Boise]

I'm sorry so many of our leaders are folding on the flag flap. I'll salute any of them that do otherwise.

Must not be poleing well.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Military analysts fact check Donald Trump on bombing oil fields - CNNPolitics.com

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/donald-trump-fact-check-bomb-oil-fields-iraq/

Have they analyzed Jeb's plan?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Must not be poleing well.--

Groan.

[lyle]

Test

[lyle]

Obviously, Typepad doesn't like a link with a derivative of the f-bomb in it. Go to Insty and scroll for the 8:46 from yesterday and click. Must read.

A sampler:

This has nothing to do with political solutions and everything to do with entertainment factor; this is the culture we as a people chose when we went to the voting booth in November of 2008. We decided showmanship, stage-fainting, snake oil and promises of ocean level decreases were more important than substantive policy ideas and solutions. We elected a President based on what Hollywood studios and corporate branding experts told us, and those same people haven’t stopped giving us their opinion in the form of tweets or slogans written on hands ever since. Conservatives, desperate to join a culture that has all but decided to pass them by (or force them out completely), aren’t so much looking for an articulate salesman to get them back in the conversation as they are looking for an indestructible tank to bust through the wall and take it instantly by force.

The talk-radio powered part of that base thinks they’ve found it in Trump.

[lyle]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/10/opm-director-katherine-archuleta-resigns/

Hack resigns in light of hacking. So very meta. Of course, this hack was nothing more than a diversity hire and utterly incompetent and unqualified for the job. Just like our preznit.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

...Conservatives, desperate to join a culture.....are looking for an indestructible tank to bust through the wall and take it instantly by force.

Yeah, we want to join the culture of "showmanship, stage-fainting, snake oil and promises of ocean level decreases."

Who wrote this garbage?

[Jeff Dobbs]

lyle - typepad does not like links to thewilderness . me

Comments with links to it have been sent the naughty bin more than a few times.

[Buckeye]

"this hack was nothing more than a diversity hire and utterly incompetent and unqualified for the job"

bet we still end up paying her a pension.

[lyle]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/opm-director-resigns-katherine-archuleta/index.html

CNN blames...Republicans for not vetting her enough.

Aides to Republican lawmakers who voted for her confirmation now acknowledge they didn’t pay enough attention to the importance of technology in the agency Archuleta was taking over.

You know what? So do I. With all the effing R squishes sitting on their asses, protecting their jobs.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

ht tp://the wilder ness.me/circus-circus-or-the-ongoing-saga-of-fuckface-von-clownstick/

[lyle]

Thanks, TK.

[lyle]

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trumps-troubles-cast-shadow-gops-senate-hopes-n389301

Don't bother clicking. Just savor this from the most leftie of all the MFM (which is really saying something). The concern trolling is soooo touching.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

No problem, lyle. Just repair the spaces in the link and voila!

Apparently Wilderness outpost thinks Trump supporters are as stupid as Obama voters. He should read Appalled's comments to really get a grasp on that subject.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/247383-trump-leads-gop-presidential-field-in-new-national-poll

[lyle]

I didn't come to that conclusion after reading it, TK, but to each his own.

[Buckeye]

"CNN blames...Republicans for not vetting her enough."

Of course if they had vetted her, and taken issue with her qualifications the headline would read:

CNN blames...Republicans for their sexist, racist, obstructionist behavior in vetting Archuleta.

[James D]

Trump is a buffoon. But I guess, per Ace, there are a lot of people who think that he speaks for them. I am not sure why they think so -- I assume it is ignorance of all the many different things that he has said over the years. Yes, he is tapping into some sort of populist anger but seriously folks, he is a buffoon.

The reason they think he's speaking for them, I think, is simply because NOBODY ELSE IS, and he's talking openly about something they see as a problem, and have seen as a problem for years, but which few other figures seem to want to speak openly about.

Is he still a buffoon? Yes. Would he be an utter disaster on every level if he were somehow elected President? Yes.

The solution is very simple. The R's can start addressing the real, serious and longstanding concerns that a lot of people in this country have about illegal immigration. The longer they fail to do so, the more attention Trump will get and the more air he'll suck out of the room.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Lyle, if you recommend that I read the whole thing I will. I read your snippet and scanned the article with his "we" put obama in power notion blinding me.

I am always skeptical of someone who believes I had anything to do with our illegal alien President.

[Buckeye]

A clever candidate will figure out how to exploit the wounds under the scabs Trump is ripping off.

It shouldn't be difficult to come across as a rational, thoughtful, constructive alternative and yet appeal to the same sentiments Trump appeals to.

[Eric in Boise]

The R's can start addressing the real, serious and longstanding concerns that a lot of people in this country have about illegal immigration.

Agree 100%, James, and also agree about the buffoonery, but people have serious concerns on many other issues. What if Trump's just getting warmed up with immigration? I'd love to see him hammer the squishes on the loss of economic opportunity and competitiveness that comes from excessive regulation, and especially on the loss of personal freedom that comes from having the O'care shit sandwich (among other things) shoved down our throats. He can spend a week or two on each issue and have plenty of material until the election. Off to the races!

[Thomas Collins]

Hardy's suspension reduced to four games for woman battering. So, if Goodell doesn't reduce Brady's suspension, Tom being generally aware that his boys may have let some air out of footballs to perhaps take it below 12.5 psi but also perhaps to put it at 12.5 psi gets the same penalty as a batterer.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/13234396/suspension-greg-hardy-dallas-cowboys-reduced-four-games

Now, I know the postures of the situations are different. Hardy was put on the exempt list last year (which still means he got paid). Plus, Hardy had a claim that Goodell was applying the new personal conduct policy retroactively. Nonetheless, if four games is the appropriate suspension for a batterer, I think the appropriate suspension for Brady is missing the opening kickoff in the Steelers game (whether the Patriots are kicking off or receiving).

[hrtshpdbox]

The R's can start addressing the real, serious and longstanding concerns that a lot of people in this country have about illegal immigration.

Yeah, if only there was some GOP candidate somewhere who has given thought to the immigration situation and come up with any kind of plan whatsoever.
http://tinyurl.com/ocm8x3s
(Unless you meant addressing the real, serious and longstanding concerns with feverish hyperbole, in which case Trump is probably the only show in town).

[lyle]

I don't take that idea from it, TK.

[hrtshpdbox]

I am always skeptical of someone who believes I had anything to do with our illegal alien President.

I shouted out "Who killed the Kennedys"...

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

What if Trump's just getting warmed up with immigration?

One GOP aide expressed shock at the numbers, emailing Breitbart News, “These statistics blew me away, and they blow a hole through the oft-repeated line that people only want to come to America to work.  It’s tragic so few politicians are willing even to acknowledge the true extent of this problem, but until more do, more Americans will keep getting harmed.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/07/illegal-immigrants-accounted-for-nearly-37-percent-of-federal-sentences-in-fy-2014/

This is why any hammering Trump does gains him credibility at the same rate the GOPe squanders it.

How in hell did they not know??

[James D]

hrtshpdbox, I simply do not believe Jeb. I'm sorry, I just don't.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

I thought Jeb's book was called "Act of Love."

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/Immigration_Wars_Immigration.htm

[Jack iis Back!]

BRICKLAYER'S ACCIDENT REPORT

Possibly one of the funniest story in a while. This is a bricklayer's accident report, which was printed in the newsletter of the Australian equivalent of the Workers' Compensation board. This is a true story. Had this guy died, he'd have received a Darwin Award for sure.... \\

Dear Sir:
I am writing in response to your request for additional information in Block 3 of the accident report form. I put "poor planning" as the cause of my accident. You asked for a fuller explanation and I trust the following details will be sufficient.

I am a bricklayer by trade. On the day of the accident, I was working alone on the roof of a new six story building. When I completed my work, I found that I had some bricks left over which, when weighed later, were found to be slightly in excess of 500 lbs.

Rather than carry the bricks down by hand, I decided to lower them in a barrel by using a pulley, which was attached to the side of the building on the sixth floor. Securing the rope at ground level, I went up to the roof, swung the barrel out and loaded the bricks into it. Then I went down and untied the rope, holding it tightly to ensure a slow descent of the bricks. You will note in Block 11 of the accident report form that I weigh 175 lbs. Due to my surprise at being jerked off the ground so suddenly, I lost my presence of mind and forgot to let go of the rope. Needless to say, I proceeded at a rapid rate up the side of the building.

In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel which was now proceeding downward at an equal, impressive speed. This explained the fractured skull, minor abrasions and the broken collar bone, as listed in section 3 of the accident report form. Slowed only slightly, I continued my rapid ascent, not stopping until the fingers of my right hand were two knuckles deep into the pulley. Fortunately by this time I had regained my presence of mind and was able to hold tightly to the rope, in spite of beginning to experience a great deal of pain. At approximately the same time, however, the barrel of bricks hit the ground and the bottom fell out of the barrel. Now devoid of the weight of the bricks, that barrel weighed approximately 50 lbs. I refer you again to my weight.

As you can imagine, I began a rapid descent, down the side of the building. In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel coming up. This accounts for the two fractured ankles, broken tooth and several lacerations of my legs and lower body. Here my luck began to change slightly. The encounter with the barrel seemed to slow me enough to lessen my injuries when I fell into the pile of bricks and fortunately only three vertebrae were cracked.

I am sorry to report, however, as I lay there on the pile of bricks, in pain unable to move, I again lost my composure and presence of mind and let go of the rope and I lay there watching the empty barrel begin its journey back down onto me. This explains the two broken legs.
I hope this answers your inquiry.

[NB: I worked on a power plant which used on person man-lifts. A boilermaker put a large bag of tools on the step as it came by thinking his mates up on the upper elevation would be there to take them off. His assumption was wrong and two guys on the next level were knocked out even with hard hats on.]

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

If Jeb were believable, James, he would have been risking it all infront of Anderson Pooper-Shooter and all things MSNBC spelling out his seriousness.

[Cecil Turner]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/opm-director-resigns-katherine-archuleta/index.html

Rats! I told you guys to send her support letters! We could've milked this for weeks. [/grumple]

[Appalled]

TK:

There is a lot of playing with numbers going on in that Bretibart article. The most honest graph in the article is this:

Eliminating all immigration violations, illegal immigrants would account for 13.6 percent of all the offenders sentenced in FY14 following federal criminal convictions — still greater than the 3.5 percent of the population illegal immigrants are said to make up.

You can still argue that this is indicative of a problem -- but this gets you to a detailed policy discussion, which is not what Trump seems to be interested in.

[hrtshpdbox]

hrtshpdbox, I simply do not believe Jeb. I'm sorry, I just don't.
That's OK, James D.

I thought Jeb's book was called "Act of Love."
That was a much earlier book, tk (turns out that Jeb wasn't much of a porn writer).

[Extraneus]

It shouldn't be difficult to come across as a rational, thoughtful, constructive alternative and yet appeal to the same sentiments Trump appeals to.

Don't know if that would work without a few swear-words and some extra decibels thrown in. A lot of people are pissed off and have been for many years. Not sure rational and thoughtful are gonna cut it without some spice.

[lyle]

That shooting in SF two weeks ago? Is that one of those "acts of love," Jeb?

[Eric in Boise]

Lol, JiB!

Did anyone else have a Coyote/Roadrunner cartoon playing in their head as they read that?

[Extraneus]

You can still argue that this is indicative of a problem -- but this gets you to a detailed policy discussion

I don't buy that at all. It's a simple issue, and it doesn't require "comprehensive" or "detailed" anything. Close the f-n border right now. Very simple.

"But what do you do with the poor family who's in the shadows for 22 years?"

"Close the border, right now. Or else."

Very simple.

[Appalled]

Ext:

But even that simple solution does not solve:

* People already here.
* Anchor babies

And I do have a question -- why so angry? Are illegals threatening your livelihood? Are they bankrupting your state? Has crime around you gone up?

The questions aren't rhetorical (really), and I'm not trying to troll. I'm just trying to figure out why you are where you are.

[Thomas Collins]

Appalled, given what has happened in Europe and what is about to happen with an inevitable surge of even more refugees from the Middle East, Trump's approach of banging the mule on the head with a 2x4, as opposed to engaging in an NPR All Things Considered type discussion, seems reasonable to me.

By the way, I believe in mucho immigration. Like Barbara Jordan, I believe it is a basic aspect of sovereignty to take the posture, and enforce it, that America decides who gets in.

The family who has been here 22 years? I take what I consider to be the liberal position. Secure the border, and then we'll talk about the family who has been here for 22 years. Politicians have been yapping about how they are for a secure border for years and years. If they had actually done something about it, we'd be in a position to address the family who has been here for 22 years.

[GMax]

Oh that you were so introspective and inquisitive nay thirsty for information,before casting your vote for President of the USA. Twice.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

Americans who respect and are grateful for their sovereignty are considered angry.

[Miss Marple]

Some interesting stuff I have picked up on the Trump phenomenon:

1. Laura Ingraham said this morning that a lot of Millennials support him because they think he will create jobs.

2. My friend who works at a local hospital in administration says thee is a lot of support there in the clerical and nurse demographic. Plus a couple of fed-up doctors.

3. The anti-Trump conservatives who are DC workers (entry level) are becoming increasingly shrill.

4. I see he now leads a national poll. The GOP better come up with something to attract voters away from him or he will become a juggernaut.

[Dave (in MA)]

World's in a bad condition,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=117&v=7wNsWftgQVQ

[Dave (in MA)]

This should work better,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wNsWftgQVQ

[Thomas Collins]

Appalled, although you didn't address the question to me, I'll tell you why I am angry. I'm angry because if we continue down the European approach to immigration, everyone here, legal, illegal, anchor, natural born, unnatural born, trans, cis, heteronormative, heteroweirdo, lesbian, gay, alternative, establishment, you name it, will suffer.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

I can't wait for the transcript of Tapper* and pals elevation of Jeb at the expense of Trump. Apparently Jeb is outraisng Trump on campaign bribes and that is a goo thing.

*is it true that Brad Dayspring's wife is one of Tapper's top people?

[squaredance]

Have we heard even one GOP polticial stand up and say that the Democrat Party is the Party of the Conferacy and thus it should be banned? No. One only hears it from a few bloggers.

The absolute nerver of the Democrats to use this issue; if we had healthy opposition they would be afriad to even touvh it, but they knbow that the GOP is so eaily cowed. Why?

It is extremely bizarre the nonsense they get away with; it could be swiftly and savagely dealt with. Instead the GOP lets The Party of the Confederacy catch them in this trap.

It cannot just be a stupidity and a lack of honor. There is something much deeper here.

How we can rely on the GOP to turn the country around is beyond me.

[Thomas Collins]

If we're going to be a Dr. Hook Freaker's Ball country, let's do it within the melting pot framework and decide which freaks we let in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo9bKdIG_Yw

[lyle]

And I do have a question -- why so angry?

How does the old saying go, Appalled? You know the one. It was all over every bumpersticker on every beat-up Volvo, Subaru, and Smart Car circa 2008.

If you're not angry, you're not paying attention

Remember that one? Bet you understood it then, huh?

[Appalled]

GMax:

I think that was directed at me. And you are mistaken re 2012. I voted for Romney.

I don't think my posting style has changed that much over the years. I fight a little less -- a function of getting older, I think.

[squaredance]

Whenever you hear the word "Comprehensive" put one hand on your wallet an the other on your revolver. "Comprehensive" means "we are going to baffle them with so much BS that it will take them a generation to figure out how we screwed them". It is right up there with "take a nuanced view".

[Eric in Boise]

Are illegals threatening your livelihood? Are they bankrupting your state? Has crime around you gone up?

Oooh, oooh, pick me! (Waving hand in air)

My answers are:

1) No.
2) Not yet, but that could change. See California, for example
3) Not in my neighborhood, but there are others in the valley where it's starting to.

Anyway, this isn't the point. The point is that there are a great deal of people that would answer an emphatic "YES!" to all three questions. And they are plenty angry, good sir.

[Jack iis Back!]

TK,

The one thing I love about Trump is I have yet to get a fundraising email from him but I have hundreds from the others. He doesn't even have a Super PAC I can tell or even one he controls. I don't think he will self-fund a presidential run but he is evidently funding his primary.

[squaredance]

one GOP polticial=one GOP politician

[Extraneus]

But even that simple solution does not solve:

* People already here.
* Anchor babies

No? What about people who are already here and get deported, yet return multiple times?

As for anger, I'm personally only angry about the lowlife traitors who purposely allow (and invite) millions of illegals to come in and then argue for compassionate solutions. I think those people should be ... er ... well, taken out of their jobs, at least.

[Miss Marple]

It's 13.6 of offenders sentenced this year. Those are added to the number already in prison, as when that 13.6 group enters most of the others are still there and will remain for another few years. That accounts for the 37% figure as part of the total federal prisoners.

Even the 13.6%, though only for one year, is too much to tolerate. How much do those people cost the taxpayers? How much damage did they do to citizens? How much cheaper if they had never come here?

[lyle]

How we can rely on the GOP to turn the country around is beyond me.

If you think anyone on this forum thinks any differently than you, I'd like you to show us the evidence.

[Cecil Turner]

I'd like to see a comparison between illegal immigrants and African Americans (arrest and conviction rates). I suspect the latter is more impressive.

And I'll denounce myself for racism and beat the rush.

[Buckeye]

Appalled

Either we value our sovereignty or we don't.

Either we prefer that the best and brightest are invited or we don't.

Either we value creating jobs for citizens or we don't.

But not to worry, the problem is self correcting. Given enough time, the country will become a third-world shit hole and nobody will bother sneaking in.

[Threadkiller Mobynatious]

When you are ready to donate, JIB.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/

:-)

[hrtshpdbox]

By the way, I believe in mucho immigration.

Where exactly then, TC, do you disagree with Jeb's immigration stance (excepting that he won't bang a mule on the head with a 2x4)?

[lyle]

http://news.investors.com/blogs-capital-hill/070815-760742-hillary-clinton-has-a-long-history-of-shameless-lying.htm

Stroll down memory lane;

New York Times columnist Bill Safire must be rolling in his grave. A 1996 essay of his, "Blizzard of Lies," began, "Americans of all political persuasions are coming to the sad realization that our first lady — a woman of undoubted talents who was a role model for many in her generation — is a congenital liar."

White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry responded: "The president, if he were not the president, would have delivered a more forceful response to that on the bridge of Mr. Safire's nose."

Around the same time, Nebraska Sen. Bob Kerrey, a rival to Bill Clinton for the 1992 Democratic presidential nomination, told Esquire that the president was "an unusually good liar. Unusually good. Do you realize that?"

The thought of Clenis punching Safire in the nose amuses me.