A Reminder From The Times

It was not so long ago (eleven months, for those who want to break my flow) that Peter Baker of the Times had this to say about the Seer-in-Chief:

A President Whose Assurances Have Come Back to Haunt Him

By PETER BAKER  SEPT. 8, 2014

WASHINGTON — When President Obama addresses the nation on Wednesday to explain his plan to defeat Islamic extremists in Iraq and Syria, it is a fair bet he will not call them the “JV team.”

Nor does he seem likely to describe Iraq as “sovereign, stable and self-reliant” with a “representative government.” And presumably he will not assert after more than a decade of conflict that “the tide of war is receding.”

As he seeks to rally Americans behind a new military campaign in the Middle East, Mr. Obama finds his own past statements coming back to haunt him. Time and again, he has expressed assessments of the world that in the harsh glare of hindsight look out of kilter with the changed reality he now confronts.

But now the topic du jour has moved from the Middle East to Iran, so its all good. Really?

Comments

[henry]

When has he expressed an assessment that in the harsh glare of hindsight looks like reality on the planet the rest of us live on?

[Centralcal on iPad]

For Gmax:

@ianbremmer: Post-Debate Poll (NBC)
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%

That's quite a 1, 2, 3...

[James D.]

Hope everyone's having a good morning.

Great Pieces from Clarice, as always.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Topic du jour?

A quick tour of nytimes.com shows that Ferguson is front and center. A marijuana piece is in the upper left. Something about Junior Seau's daughter. Some opera stuff. Teacher shortages. Handwringing in GOP about Trump. And...well, where is Iran? Oh, there it is near the bottom:

And the story is about scientists praising Obama's deal.

Well, that's settled.

[Jeff Dobbs]

(marijuana story is in the upper left if you hold your screen up to a mirror)

[clarice]

I always do do that, Jeff..doesn't everyone?

[Rick Ballard]

Persia's FM is claiming the nuclear oven deal is irreversible.

I don't believe Russia and China would allow the UN sanctions to be reimposed but BOzo cannot bind a future Congress and President from tossing any agreement he makes into the dumpster.

The US government can sanction any company trading with the Persians whenever it deems it fit to do so.

[matt]

Most of the papers are being written by interns this month as the lockstep media all go on vacay, so don't expect much Pulitzer level journalism.

Just finished a WaPo article on Beretta possibly losing the military contract for their POS M9 in which the intern repeated himself three times. oops....

History repeats itself these days first as farce, then as tragedy.

[squaredance]

Sad to see Walker so far down the list.

IMO he would make the best president, and for a lot of reasons (not that Cruz or (perhaps) Carly would not perform well).

It tells me that voters still need "flashy" candidates with "charisma", or whatever sort of gimmicky, low level theatrics that substitute for it these days.

Once upon a time--and not that long ago we did not require such out of our "leaders". It is a Boomer/Millennials thing, I guess.

Walker has a track record of actually doing something, and know exactly what he should do. He has a sound structural understanding of the Left of all of them. (so does Cruz, but he has not really stopped them much--not that it is his fault; he is a Snetor and not a Governor.)

I personally thought he did well in the debate--I was hoping it would resonate with voters more than it evidently did.

I think that he would also best unite the country again.

Too bad that people cannot see this.

[Centralcal on iPad]

It is still early squaredance.

[squaredance]

Yet the electorate is paying attention to some extent. The broad dislike of the Iran Deal is heartening. At least there is some common sense out there.

We collectively do not seem to understand what we need. We need sober, adult and morally sound leadership capable of incisive understanding and decisive action. We do not need Reaganesque speeches (as if there were any who could delivery anything but a parody on one), and we do not need a Camelot. We must dispense with the MSM run simulations of leadership we have under Obama.

The right person in there might still turn all of this around.

(and no, Jeb, Rubio and the like will not do this, no matter how many Latinos vote for them.)

[James D.]

Squaredance, I think the flashy/celebrity thing is also a function of the always-on 24/7 media we have now.

If we're going to have to listen to & watch these people we very single daybon 20 different channels, it's probably inevitable that they devolve into pop culture celebs rather than traditional leaders.

[Jane]

Yeah it's early. I'm all in for Walker and in no way convinced it is over.

[squaredance]

ON it is just leadership to stop that deal.

People would come around. Slap a 200% tariff on Chinese goods and they will last about 2 =weeks.

How ridiculous we are letting ourselves be pushed around by these creep; the proper answer to the FM of Iran is laughter followed by a bombing run.

This is not a tennis match; it is an existential threat.

If the UN does not like it, go around them.

Time to be a super power again.

[Jim Miller]

Jeff - In the Kindle version of the NYT, there are five stories in the "front page" section: Trump aggravates GOP, black and white in St Louis housing market, Puerto Rico bankruptcy, Moscow journal, and Hillary's emails. (I wrote a brief post on the last.)

There's nothing on marijuana at all. Nor is there a story in the "national" section.

Maybe it will show up tomorrow.

(BTW, the second article of those five should have been labeled as an editorial, or at least as "analysis".)

[squaredance]

JD: Yes, I am sure that you are on to something there.

I guess I am somewhat insensitive to this for I rarely watch TV, especially that weird carnival we call "The News". I do not even own a TV set. When I do need to see something, I use the internet. I get my information elsewhere. (I cannot bear to listen to or watch Obama for instance; I generally wait until I can read the transcript. This saves considerably on medical bills.)

I often fume that the the nation seems to think that this is all some sort of team sport, that we are supposed to root for the home team and that is that.

But perhaps you are right: it is more like a bad sitcom, action movie or quiz show.

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

re ccal's post of the NBC post-debate poll:

Does it seem to anyone else that the MFM is ignoring Cruz and Carson since the debate?

I noticed that the leftist/dem operatives and the GOPe all seem to be studiously ignoring Cruz and Carson since the debate.
The left seems content to focus on attacking teh Donald, and likening all the candidates to him, while the GOPe is heavily pushing Kasich and Rubio as the "winners" of the debate.

I first noticed the lack of coverage of Cruz's debate performance late Thursday night, and kept tabs on the coverage Friday and Saturday to see if it would continue.

On the FNC program with Julie Banderas yesterday (7:00-7:30 EDT), her panel of Pat Caddell, Doug Schoen and a third guy (John Le Boutillier?) discussed the debate at length. They mentioned everyone in the debate *except* Ted Cruz.

They managed to never even speak his name, despite discussing who helped and hurt themselves, and how the debate would impact each of the candidates' campaigns going forward.

I am a fan of Carson and Cruz, so I may be (probably am) biased, but I really think there is something to it.

[Captain Hate]

I hope you're all sitting down for the shocking news that the Horde isn't a large collection of Erickson fans:

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=358361

[Captain Hate]

Benjy Sarlin BenjySarlin
Huh. @EWErickson says Ben Carson to was not invited to RS because he didn't like that Carson focused on himself at event for disabled vets.

Erick going all Leslie Gore.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 08, 2015 07:17 PM (kdS6q)

[Centralcal on iPad]

Speaking of Erickson, I read on one of the media blogs that this is his last week with Red State as he is leaving.

I have no idea where he's going, but hoping it is not to my TV!

[Old Lurker]

Have we talked about this? Will the EPA fine itself a gazillion dollars for releasing all that toxic waste into the CO River?

[jimmyk on iPhone]

Via Althouse, Kasich gives us this gem:

"Whenever women touch anything they clearly make it better than we do as guys."

Whatever air was in his balloon should be going pffft.

[squaredance]

Good commentary from ACE.

Worth a read.

[anonamom]

Walker is my number one too, but he's borderline on that Q thing.
He's not creepy dead fish like Nixon on TV, but he doesn't have whatever it is that Bill Clinton has in spades.

It's not just charisma in the conventional sense--some blend of photogenicity and the ability to convey energy and vitality on camera.

I agree that it is early.

[Captain Hate]

Get ready for more of that from Preacher John; somewhere along the line his impulse control just went kablooey.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

henry@11:17
"When has he expressed an assessment that in the harsh glare of hindsight looks like reality on the planet the rest of us live on?"

No need for that qualifier.

[narciso]

Perhaps carly simon, Erickson reminds of a line from when o'rourke was funny 'compact like an attack squirrel' and the Carlos slim piece that references his cluster in the eighth paragraph he dials his 'oitrage' to 12.

[squaredance]

Oh bet it is to your TV that he is skedaddling. Fox?

Goodness, I hope he is not going to work on someones campaign.

We really need to go ahead and stop looking backwards. This is the way to the win the young.

All of this: the Bushes, the Clintons, the angry climbers like Erickson (on both sides) need to be cast aside. It is like we are in a time warp.

We need to move ahead and do so practically.

That is why I like Walker (and Cruz and Carson too).

Jeb, Rubio, and all the standard GOP mediocrities just nauseate me. They are like props from a once famous movie--like the Cowardly lion's heart; like the sound effects of an old radio play from before the TV age.

Enough.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

I wonder if Iran would make the cover of the New York Times if Iran vaporized New York with a bomb.

Probably not.

[squaredance]

"Whenever women touch anything they clearly make it better than we do as guys."

Anyone that spouts that sort of nonsense is not only an idiot but so intellectually dishonest and ill-educated that they should not be allowed near a microphone, let alone the office of the POTUS.

Pure SJW drivel; Pure Dem-lite pandering.

[Janet]

studiously ignoring Cruz and Carson since the debate.

The WaPo does that a lot with Virginia elections. They just don't cover the Republican candidate AT ALL.

Virginia's election for Gov. in 2005 when Tim Kaine was elected is a great example.
The WaPo just ignored Kilgore & ran endless
praise articles on Kaine.

Not negative coverage...NO coverage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_gubernatorial_election,_2005

[Captain Hate]

Unless they say "macaca", Janet; then they never talk about anything else.

[narciso]

So they burned large parts of the town, they expect things to get better, specially with the threat of more rampaging mobs.

[Captain Hate]

[Poppin']In fairness [/Fresh], Janet, getting a goof like Tim Kaine elected takes a herculean task; there was probably a lot of money being wagered throughout the newspropagandaroom.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--"Whenever women touch anything they clearly make it better than we do as guys."--

I have elected not to touch that line with a barge pole but what he seems to have actually meant by it and is being criticized for was the last thing that came to my mind.

Should I bother denouncing myself?

[jimmyk on iPhone]

I think Walker does just fine with his speeches. In the debate he seemed a bit weak, at least in what I saw. His responses were short and cautious. For example, on the #BlackLivesMatter question, he was asked specifically whether there is a problem with police killing blacks. He talked about the importance of training, made a reference to Sheriff Clark that was probably opaque to 75% of the audience, but didn't take a stand on the key question. I thought he should have defended he police, noted that the Michael Brown shooting was found to be justified, that Obama has inflamed racial tensions with his inappropriate remarks, etc.

[narciso]

And of course you have cucvinelli, where thentop men 'stab it with their steely knives' running interference for McAuliffe.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

Iggy, I don't even know how people are interpreting it, but I can't think of any reading that makes him seem anything other than an idiot. Does he not know that Hillary is the most like Dem nominee and spout similar nonsense?

[MarkO]

"Whenever women touch anything they clearly make it better than we do as guys."

"Hey. Do you want to get out of here and have a drink?"

[squaredance]

It's not just charisma in the conventional sense--some blend of photogenicity and the ability to convey energy and vitality on camera.

I am sure you are right, but it is truly sad that we need such things--it is a sign or regression and immaturity. Once it was not so.
Just remember Ike, who along with Reagan was one of the 2 top Presidents of my lifetime. Once we knew better.

I confess it puzzles me for the very last thing that matters to me is "some blend of photogenicity and the ability to convey energy and vitality on camera".

Such things are pure illusions and only move the foolish and the stupid.

We most manifestly do not need such things. Period. We need to get over this.

And think of it: suppose Walker did get in and did great things--completely turned things around--and did so in a calm, bland, "unphotogenetic" way. Would that not help the country grow up a little? Would that not be a good thing.

The POTUS is not a Prom King. This is not a movie.

[anonamom]

so jimmy k, you want Walker to act like Carly.
So do I. And if he doesn't, she should get the nomination. She's the only one doing it right.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

Rather "the most likely nominee and spouts similar nonsense."

[narciso]

Well recall how the dems treated eisenhower, despite his landslides they preferred adlai, the foolish dreamer.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Bookmark this story so the next time some green pinko is talking about the sacrificial, all volunteer enviro fascist movement you can point out it's a $1.5 TRILLION per year going concern.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

I see MarkO is on the same wavelength as me.

Poor guy.

[jimmyk on iPhone]

Walker doesn't necessarily need to act like Carly, but in a debate setting needs to be more forceful. As I said, in his speeches he comes across well as Scott Walker.

[Captain Hate]

The donks went full Costanza on Adlai despite the fact that the electorate wanted no part of him.

Meanwhile, here we go!

http://www.weaselzippers.us/231195-jewish-online-magazine-accuses-white-house-of-jew-baiting-and-stoking-bigotry-against-those-opposing-iran-deal-including-schumer/

[Captain Hate]

I could see Walker growing on people with time over a *very* long campaign season. If he tries to act like something he's not he'll risk looking as bad as Perry.

[squaredance]

Ike was an incredibly adept (and tough) politician who knew how things really worked, what battles to fight and how to get results. He had a insight in to the dangers of his time--domestic and foreign--that now seem prophetic--he was far ahead of his time. He was a true patriot who put America first, and the entire country, not just the elites. He was also happened to be a decent man. He accomplish much, and much of what he did was not heralded then or since.

Throughout all of this he was careful to maintain that "bland exterior" we appear to so loathe today.

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

re my 12:49 post:
Does it seem to anyone else that the MFM is ignoring Cruz and Carson since the debate?

Fox had Chris Stirewalt (their digital politics reporter) on just minutes ago. He spoke for nearly 10 minutes about the debate, and he managed to *never* mention Ted Cruz's name.

He spoke about who did well and who did poorly, who really helped their image and who made the biggest impression. He spoke at length about all aspects of the debate, but *no* Cruz, once again.

This is getting to be more than an occasional anomaly, methinks.

[narciso]

It seems all the outrage!!! Just boosted rinos ratings, in some quarters, now nazgul Maher certainly inferred the worst in that outburst, and that is not encouraging.

[squaredance]

Well of course they hate Cruz. He know which way is up and will do something about it.

Can you imagine Cruz in there with a mandate and a majority of new conservatives on the Hill.

The gravy train will stop; some people will end up in jail.

Of course the GOP wants to stop him. If it were not for Trump, they would be going after him right now.

Yet it will backfire on them. Jeb will not get elected, and after another 8 years of Democrat rule, there will be no GOP at all.

The Stupid Party.

[Rick Ballard]

I'm rather certain Walker achieved his goal for the event. He needs to achieve a degree of separation by December and he didn't need to create a sound bite in August to do so. I'm pleased to see the bump for Cruz, Fiorina and especially Carson. The Cruz slap at McDonnell achieved its purpose and he remains the 'outsider' with a reasonable shot at VP while Fiorina and Carson provide excellent examples of the breadth of talent on tap.

It's quite a contrast with the prog geriarchs greasing the wheels on their walkers as they try to catch their breath.

[squaredance]

All for a Walker Cruz ticket, but doubt it will happen. Bet we get Jeb/Rubio. Gotta get that Hispanic vore no matter what. That is "the future of the GOP".

More likely to be its end.

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

squaredance - I hope and pray that we won't have to suffer "another 8 years of Democrat rule."

I'm not sure the country we know could survive that.

[squaredance]

I'm pretty positive that it cannot survive that.

[Captain Hate]

Here's the response that George Will made that I really take exception to:

WALLACE: But I just want to - Before we move on to Lisa, let's say it's 20 or 30 percent you say that are not Republicans, that are not conservatives. They are people. They're voters. And, you know, if they either sit out and I think generally speaking you would say they have voted for the Republicans certainly against the Democrat or if Donald Trump and he has certainly - has left it open, ran as the third-party candidacy, wouldn't that be enough to sink the Republican nominee either way?

WILL These are voters that the Republicans want. The Republicans want all voters. And particularly these voters. But to say that he's tapped into something, Henry Wallace tapped into something in the far left of American politics in the late '40s. The John Birch Society tapped into something. George Wallace tapped into something. And it was up to the grown-ups and the labor movement in the 1940s and the grown-ups in the conservative movement in the 1960s to read those elements, the Riot Act and say come back in, but come back in on our terms because we're not going down the road you want to go.

Maybe I'm too emotionally invested to view this objectively but by comparing the Tea Party to the likes of Henry Wallace, who was canned by FDR for being too extreme to the left, or the John Birch Society (which could be closer, I guess, but I'm too young to really remember them) Will is unnecessarily smearing a group that used to depend on regular people like Janet and Jane to get things done. Like most things that Will does to irritate me, this seems much too stuffy and high handed.

[narciso]

Well the first instance was a malaprop, aphid is like the terms henry Wallace never had.as for the other one, he appealed to the radical middle that continelli still hasn't credited to Donald warren, that was part of nixons silent majority.

[Jack is Back (from Orient Point)]

Is there any polling that shows most Trump supporters to also be Tea Party types?

[squaredance]

Wallace was a Communist.

It is absurd to imagin that there is some sort of continuum Where there is a menaing "extreme" on the "far" right that balances out people like Wallace. There is in fact no such thing in American politics, or really in 20th century politics.

And no, fascism and Nazism were not "Extremem Right", they were both of the Left: the Brich socety was right about just about everything, as we see today, and were most particularly right about the "labor movement" BTW

Will's comment is telling. It shows how really clueless he is about what it going on, and how tied he is to the political models of the immediate post war era. Purely as history, what he is saying is pure hooey and he should be ashamed of himself.

No doubt he actually believe this crap.

He is just acting out a role as "house conservative" in the Dem/GOP cartel.

He needs to retire.

[narciso]

Actually George is more ignorant than usual, the previous Wallace campaign was the source point for McGovern and mailer, so there is continuity there.

A recent Bloomberg poll suggests he draws from some tea partiers but more often disaffected democrats.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

It was an assumption on my part that people infuriated by the lack of pushback by the GOP congress would be Tea Party types, although anything is possible, I guess.

[MarkO]

Pleased to be with Iggy whenever possible.

I like Ike.

My comments about impending doom came from reading these threads.

There is great anxiety in America. Anxiety that results from the arbitrariness and capriciousness of Obama's Constitutional vandalism.

I stumbled on to CNN's series on the 70's and watched Archie call out "darkies" and "coons." SNL was irreverent. No more. Refined palates have we all.

We are now fully tamed. Pacified. In our recumbent ovinity (if not a word it should be) we permit TSA, NSA, PPH, and a host of acronyms to grope, snoop and murder us.

At least I can speak Spanish.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

To add to narc's statement, I'm sure there are some Reagan democrat types who may or may not identify with the TP.

[squaredance]

No, no polls about the tea party: just knee jerk slander. Regular, decent and productive people--normal people--have to be repressed at every turn.

This is why people who have never met anyone in the TP carry around this bizarre mischaracterization of them as rubes off in "Militia compounds", rather then people who could be their aunts or own the FTD Flower shop down the street.

Just more smarmy snobbery out of self-appointed elites (out of bother parties)

[narciso]

George Carlin wouldn't be permitted on there now certainly. Where was this profound sensitivity on kasichs part, When the huntress was being savaged daily, I know as a Lehman bros dir he was a little busy at that time, but Shirley.

[Captain Hate]

squaredance pinpoints what is driving Trump's popularity: The incredible contempt which the GOP has for people it has taken for granted in the past. They may as well be Luis Gutierrez for the way they dismiss any concern about crimes committed by illegal aliens as a small sacrifice to realize the overwhelming benefit which only they can seem to see. That is so dismissive of the rightful claims of US citizens to not have to undergo ANY negative consequences so that the elite can feel good about themselves and their harebrained schemes.

Ignoring these people will not end well.

[narciso]

Trump is responsible for what he mumbles poorly, we haven't the time to gaze upon every issue. As Kristol points out he was disdainful of Reagan certainly in the 80s, but that easnt unique to up and coming execs in that era.

[squaredance]

The Reagan Democrats, or the meaningful core of them, are mostly all dead now. They were not boomers. There are a few boomers left that might be called such as Miss Marple shows, but they are no longer a force politically, and that is a very bad thing. Most of the Reagan Democrats were of the generation before the Boomers.

Nobody even vaguely like a Reagan Democrat has been allowed in the Democrat Party for quite some time. The Kulaks had to be destroyed and the proles just wanted to be Kulaks.

[jojo]

ignoring the elites or the Trumpeteers?

[matt]

Speaking of which I know a Pakistani-American Rotarian Tea Partier who owns a flower shop.

Mel Brooks would be out of work as well. Examining and making fun of our prejudices is one of the fastest ways to break them down.

And anyone with a decently sized gun safe is called a militiaman these days. Just wait and see what happens when those redcoats come by this neighborhood.

[Captain Hate]

Trump is an opportunist with extremely sketchy ethics; of that I have no doubt. But he sees an opening big enough to drive a herd of elephants through which Top Men pretend doesn't exist.

[jojo]

check out the headline at Drudge

I posted a link to that on JOM a couple of days ago

[MarkO]

My cold, dead hands.

[Captain Hate]

Ignoring the Trumpeteers.

[jojo]

I saw a post of Kristol's feelings about Reagan back then, it was funny - he hated him the way people hate Trump now

[Miss Marple]

squaredance,

I don't know if we will ever get back to electing bland, competent leaders. The thing that has changed is television. It magnifies flaws and elevates those who have a nice appearance and can speak well.

We have had now 2 generations who are used to presidents on TV all the time, and they make a lot of their judgements on superficial things. The press also makes their judgement that way, because most of them are younger.

My suggestion for the RNC would be to have a boot camp on how to deal with the press for ALL candidates, which I believe they did for lower level candidates last time.
(They wanted to avoid more Todd Aiken - Richard Mourdock type events.)

Am listening to the rerun of George Will now. I think he got a job because of his past reputation, but I do not see that he now adds anything to the discussion.

[Captain Hate]

squaredance, I think there are some pockets of Reagan democrats in the coal counties of Ohio who voted for a loser like Twitch Strickland but also McRINO and RMoney because they could see 404's environmental policies putting them out of work. As United Mine Workers, they are surely democrats.

[jojo]

the thing is that he's fully open about his ethics unlike the others, if he liked the corrupt system he wouldn't be exposing it he'd be quiet about it like all the others

-- from the Wapo Robinson

"Trump said it best "Hey, I gave lots of money to politicians of both parties because that’s what rich and powerful people do, and in exchange they get access and influence. It’s a rotten system but that’s the way it works, and let’s not pretend otherwise."

drudge looks like he's a Trumpeteer

[narciso]

You can't hit them with a large enough cluebat well perhaps smod for them to understand what is really going on.

[Jack is Back (from Orient Point)]

The reason I asked that Q about Trumpeters and the Tea Party is that I would find it surprising if the majority are TP regulars from the early 2009's. I have a gut feeling that the Trumpeters are a sub-level of pissed off Americans, not necessarily regular voters either, who have harbored great resentment toward our government over one issue - illegal immigration and the unwillingness and seriousness to do anything about it.

The Tea Party to me was founded on economic and government regulation issues versus immigration. It may have been part of the TP agenda but not the top issues for sure.

Too me there now seems to be 3 major cells of political angst among the new Silent Majority: Economy (including financial reform, tax reform and regulations), Immigration (the illegal kind as well as the H1N worker replacement with cheap labor), and National Security (i.e. The Iran deal, Benghazi and ISIS. I would include the IRS scandal with the Economic cell of PO'd voters.

[MarkO]

We've had only one bland president in 80 years and that was sweater-boy Carter.

Even Truman was seemingly alive.

Since TV, only celebrity candidates can be elected. They have to "look" and "sound" presidential. That's even the criticism of Trump leveled by Megyn. He didn't "sound" presidential.

No one cares if a candidate can keep the peace and improve the economy. The electorate doesn't care if the candidate is intelligent (Obama) or a crook (Hillary).

It's been that way since JFK.

[Jack is Back (from Orient Point)]

Frank Gifford R.I.P.

I was raised a Giants fan being a Long Island kid. I used to be able to name the full starting lineup. Charlie Conerly and Y.A. Tittle were my heroes. I remember Frank as a great running back and sometimes maligned as a SoCal pretty boy.

He was 84.

[squaredance]

MM: Well I fear you are right.

This does not, however, have to be the case.

(And you know, I am old enough to remember when they campaigned on trains and actually made Whistle stop speeches from the caboose of the train in smaller towns. My father dragged me a long to several of these. Perhaps it was a better way.)

Sometimes I think that we should have nothing but debates: lots of them, one on one. No ads, no "Campaigns"

Real debates too, just like the ones debate teams have in high school, and not this weird speed dating.

Rarely do I find in business that the really competent executives are much good at public speaking or "Media Charisma". more often than not the people who are good at these things are egomaniacs with the worst judgement and the least commitment or care for the enterprise. They tend to be careerists and flimflam men out for themselves.

It is really asking too much to have one person be good in both areas.

Perhaps, if we are so immature to require these theatrics, we should have a Prime Minister and a "President". The latter can stand on stage.

Better still would be for us to just grow up and act like adults.

[sbwaters]

Too me there now seems to be 3 major cells of political angst among the new Silent Majority

. . . and one major cell among the political elite both in and out of power: they will do almost anything to keep control, up to and including letting the country go down the tubes. When they say they care about ordinary people, they cross their fingers.

[Miss Marple]

Jack,

I agree with you about Trump fans not being Tea Party. A large number are disaffected democrats who have been ignored, many blue collar. He also is drawing a fair number of Millennials who are concerned about job prospects.

My angst is primarily about National Security, and it makes me more nervous every day. I am very concerned about the Iran thing adn the national security portion of the southern border, since I believe Middle-Eastern people are infiltrating.

There is so much bad stuff going on, and for all I know it's all connected. Are the "BlackLivesMatter" people getting money from ISIS? Where does the money PlannedParenthood gets for baby parts go? Who is buying the baby parts, China? How many environmental groups are funded by the Saudis and the Chinese? On and on and on.

Angst is a very good word. Fear and loathing alaso describe my feelings.

[Miss Marple]

Just saw that Frank Gifford has passed away. RIP.

[James D.]

Rarely do I find in business that the really competent executives are much good at public speaking or "Media Charisma". more often than not the people who are good at these things are egomaniacs with the worst judgement and the least commitment or care for the enterprise. They tend to be careerists and flimflam men out for themselves.

Absolutely. I've seen this my whole life, and I hate it.

But it's human nature. It certainly isn't unique to us or to our politics.

[James D.]

I have a gut feeling that the Trumpeters are a sub-level of pissed off Americans, not necessarily regular voters either, who have harbored great resentment toward our government over one issue - illegal immigration and the unwillingness and seriousness to do anything about it.

That explains why there's not that much either party can really do to appeal to these people. Politicians of both parties, at every level, have been lying about this issue consistently for decades; what can they possibly say now that anyone who's concerned about this issue will believe?

[squaredance]

Well certainly, but that does not mean we have to indulge that "human nature".

[Threadkiller]

At risk of anyone teeing of on me, or getting the electrodes again, I have a question MM.

Whay would someone who identifies as a Democrat ever find solace with a birther?

(This is a really good question to help foster an educational debate on who may make up the group of Trump supporters, IMO. I hope JOM can engage the question with some reason and thoughtfulness)

[gaw]

re. Squaredance at 1:33 PM:
Ike was all of that and more yet the democrats and liberal press treated him like an amiable dunce. The war on America has been going on for a long time.

[Captain Hate]

Ohhhh no, Miss Marple; we have plenty of home grown ghouls lurking in the shadows of anonymity:

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/who-buys-sells-and-uses-fetal-tissue-acquired-from-abortion-clinics/

[James D.]

Not indulged, but definitely recognized.

I can't count the times I've seen otherwise intelligent people fall for one of those charismatic (but not ultimately competent or honest) types - in elections, in the workplace, and in personal situations. It never fails to amaze me how they can't see that the charismatic person is a crook, a liar, a jerk, clearly unable to deliver what they're promising, etc.

I think everyone here could come up with a distressing number of examples in every sphere of life.

[squaredance]

gaw: Yes, but Americans make then did not believe the dems and the press when they called Ike a dunce. Just too many WW 2 vet around.

Never forget, he got two terms, and had the first GOP majority in both houses since the New Deal.

It is true that large swaths of later generations bought into this claptrap down the road, but not when Ike was in politics.

[Captain Hate]

I never thought Frank Gifford would look anything but youthful; then that changed so I guess this shouldn't be a surprise.

I never thought I'd be as old as I am today either.

[Johns_Creek_Bill]

And my question is, as a hard core conservative why should I consider voting for Trump?

[Threadkiller]

Roughly two years prior to the assumed beginnings of the Tea Party, a group of vocal conservatives shut down the Bush/Feinstein 2007 pseudo-amnesty immigration reform. Stopped it dead.

This early group probably found itself very muched aligned with the Tea Party when it came along.

It is that earlier group that supports Trump, IMO, and they are probably members of the TP as well. One doesn't exclude the other.

[squaredance]

but Americans make = but Americans back

[Johns_Creek_Bill]

Is DandymDon still alive or is the classic MNF team gone?