Outside The Box - Why Not Deliver To ISIS Their Apocalypse?

Lots of background on ISIS in this fascinating Atlantic article from March 2015 by Graeme Wood (with reaction here).

My takeaway - let's give ISIS, correctly described by Obama as an "apocalyptic cult", exactly what it wants. ISIS adherents believe there will be an apocalyptic showdown between their caliphate and the "Army of Rome" in the area of Dabiq. Dabiq is a village north of Aleppo, near the Turkish border in an area that Turkey and the US were planning to turn into a safe haven for rebels and refugees. So, the notion (Mr. Wood's if you like it, mine otherwise) - if ISIS wants to die there and we want to kill them, let's send in some US-led troops and give them their apocalypse. That should be much easier than liberating and occupying all of ISIS-occupied Syria and Iraq.

On with the article:

What ISIS Really Wants

The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.

A brief excerpt will not do the article justice. But let me isolate the apocalyptic vision:

For certain true believers—the kind who long for epic good-versus-evil battles—visions of apocalyptic bloodbaths fulfill a deep psychological need. Of the Islamic State supporters I met, Musa Cerantonio, the Australian, expressed the deepest interest in the apocalypse and how the remaining days of the Islamic State—and the world—might look. Parts of that prediction are original to him, and do not yet have the status of doctrine. But other parts are based on mainstream Sunni sources and appear all over the Islamic State’s propaganda. These include the belief that there will be only 12 legitimate caliphs, and Baghdadi is the eighth; that the armies of Rome will mass to meet the armies of Islam in northern Syria; and that Islam’s final showdown with an anti-Messiah will occur in Jerusalem after a period of renewed Islamic conquest.

The Islamic State has attached great importance to the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo. It named its propaganda magazine after the town, and celebrated madly when (at great cost) it conquered Dabiq’s strategically unimportant plains. It is here, the Prophet reportedly said, that the armies of Rome will set up their camp. The armies of Islam will meet them, and Dabiq will be Rome’s Waterloo or its Antietam.

“Dabiq is basically all farmland,” one Islamic State supporter recently tweeted. “You could imagine large battles taking place there.” The Islamic State’s propagandists drool with anticipation of this event, and constantly imply that it will come soon. The state’s magazine quotes Zarqawi as saying, “The spark has been lit here in Iraq, and its heat will continue to intensify … until it burns the crusader armies in Dabiq.” A recent propaganda video shows clips from Hollywood war movies set in medieval times—perhaps because many of the prophecies specify that the armies will be on horseback or carrying ancient weapons.

Now that it has taken Dabiq, the Islamic State awaits the arrival of an enemy army there, whose defeat will initiate the countdown to the apocalypse. Western media frequently miss references to Dabiq in the Islamic State’s videos, and focus instead on lurid scenes of beheading. “Here we are, burying the first American crusader in Dabiq, eagerly waiting for the remainder of your armies to arrive,” said a masked executioner in a November video, showing the severed head of Peter (Abdul Rahman) Kassig, the aid worker who’d been held captive for more than a year. During fighting in Iraq in December, after mujahideen (perhaps inaccurately) reported having seen American soldiers in battle, Islamic State Twitter accounts erupted in spasms of pleasure, like overenthusiastic hosts or hostesses upon the arrival of the first guests at a party.

Dabiq, per Google Maps, is roughly 60 Km (37 miles) North North east of rebel-held Aleppo. It is somewhat near the Turkish border and well within the area described in this July 2015 Times piece as a space that Turkey and the US may turn into a safe haven for Syrian rebels and refugees. See map below.

Need I explain further? Send enough US led troops to liberate Dabiq, then hold it against what should be the inevitable ISIS counterattacks. Hey, they want to die there and we want to kill them, so this is what we call a win-win. A battle over limited real estate will surely be easier to manage than Obama's hypothetical liberation of all of ISIS-occupied Syria and Iraq.

And if this does not draw them into the long-awaited apocalypse, well, we were planning (last summer, at least) to sweep that zone and make it a haven anyway. Where is the downside? Rhetorical question, I know Obama will find one.

Lest you wonder, the possibilities did not escape the author; this is from his discussion of military alternatives:

If the United States were to invade, the Islamic State’s obsession with battle at Dabiq suggests that it might send vast resources there, as if in a conventional battle. If the state musters at Dabiq in full force, only to be routed, it might never recover.

And just to display my knack for confirmation bias, let me note that the possibilities may not have escaped Mr. Wood's readers either. Mr. Wood actually heard praise for his fair-handedness from some ISIS jihadists, one of whom passed along these thoughts: (note - I have substituted 'ISIS jihadists' for "Muslims" for clarity]:

One ISIS supporter wrote to me to note the peculiarity in all this. The piece, he said,

is grounded in realism, and argues that not understanding what is happening is very dangerous, especially if fighting a war, one must fight the war that is real, not the invented one that one wishes to fight. Perhaps ironically, your [writings] ... are most dangerous to the [ISIS jihadists] (not that it is necessarily meant to be so on your behalf), yet they are celebrated by [ISIS jihadists] who see them as pieces that speak the truth that so many try to deny, but also because [ISIS Jihadists] know that deep down the idealists of the world will still ignore them.

What stands out to me that others don't seem to discuss much, is how the Islamic State, Osama [bin Laden] and others are operating as if they are reading from a script that was written 1,400 years ago. They not only follow these prophecies, but plan ahead based upon them. One would therefore assume that the enemies of Islam would note this and prepare adequately, but [it’s] almost as if they feel that playing along would mean that they believe in the prophecies too, and so they ignore them and go about things their own way. ... [The] enemies of the [ISIS jihadists] may be aware of what the [ISIS jihadists] are planning, but it won't benefit them at all as they prefer to either keep their heads in the sand, or to fight their imaginary war based upon rational freedom-loving democrats vs. irrational evil terrorist madmen. With this in mind, maybe you can understand to some degree one of the reasons why many [ISIS jihadists] will share your piece. It’s not because we don't understand what it is saying in terms of how to defeat the [ISIS jihadists], rather it’s because we know that those in charge will ignore it and screw things up anyway.

On behalf of those who simultaneously have their head in the sand and up their posterior let me just say - that's interesting.

That reader reaction certainly makes me want to read the article again to see what other ideas for defeating ISIS may have jumped off the page for the ISIS readership. But having the enemy name the battlefield on which they want to die seems like a clue to me.

HATE SPEECH ALERT: If Obama was reading this article he probably threw it down in disgust here:

We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature....

...

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.

Adherents to the Islamic variation of the "No True Scotsman" defense will recoil, of course. There is more on this much later in the article:

V. Dissuasion

It would be facile, even exculpatory, to call the problem of the Islamic State “a problem with Islam.” The religion allows many interpretations, and Islamic State supporters are morally on the hook for the one they choose. And yet simply denouncing the Islamic State as un-Islamic can be counterproductive, especially if those who hear the message have read the holy texts and seen the endorsement of many of the caliphate’s practices written plainly within them.

Muslims can say that slavery is not legitimate now, and that crucifixion is wrong at this historical juncture. Many say precisely this. But they cannot condemn slavery or crucifixion outright without contradicting the Koran and the example of the Prophet. “The only principled ground that the Islamic State’s opponents could take is to say that certain core texts and traditional teachings of Islam are no longer valid,” Bernard Haykel says. That really would be an act of apostasy.

The Islamic State’s ideology exerts powerful sway over a certain subset of the population. Life’s hypocrisies and inconsistencies vanish in its face. Musa Cerantonio and the Salafis I met in London are unstumpable: no question I posed left them stuttering. They lectured me garrulously and, if one accepts their premises, convincingly. To call them un-Islamic appears, to me, to invite them into an argument that they would win. If they had been froth-spewing maniacs, I might be able to predict that their movement would burn out as the psychopaths detonated themselves or became drone-splats, one by one. But these men spoke with an academic precision that put me in mind of a good graduate seminar. I even enjoyed their company, and that frightened me as much as anything else.

 THE APOCALYPTIC MEME IS OUT THERE:

“There is a time for soft power and playing the long game in the Middle East, but there is also a time for the ruthless application of hard power. It is NATO’s responsibility to recognize our current moment qualifies as the latter,” James Stavridis, a retired Navy admiral and former NATO top commander in Europe, wrote in Foreign Policy. “The Islamic State is an apocalyptic organization overdue for eradication.”

 The meme also makes an appearance in this Federalist list, point 3:

16 Of The Worst Ways To Respond To ISIS' PAris Attack

...

3) Opining On “What ISIS Wants”

...

ISIS leaders are actually pretty straightforward about what they want. And if you want to read just one article that gets to the heart of who they are and why they exist, I’d recommend “What ISIS Really Wants” from Graeme Wood earlier this year in The Atlantic. It’s not perfect — toward the end it pooh-poohs the idea that ISIS fighters might want to bring the fight back to their home countries — but it does a good job of explaining their motivation and what they seek.

Wood explains that ISIS is committed “to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.” ISIS probably does want you to respond to their attacks by playing Yoko Ono tunes rather than killing them before they can strike again, but that in itself is not reason to avoid playing “Imagine.”

Apocalypse Now!

GREAT MINDS RUN IN THE SAME CHANNEL. Of course, it is also said that fools think alike.

 

 

 

Comments

[Strawman Cometh]

This is better then the previous thread.

[Strawman Cometh]

Travis Smiley, he of the brain that can't keep with his mouth. Still prattling on re: BLM.

[Streetwiseprof]

Suggested this 9 months ago.

[Strawman Cometh]

I'll go on. Now David Talbot, founder of Salon lays it all on Ike.

[Strawman Cometh]

"We're playing a price for our arrogance".

[Strawman Cometh]

The Amerikan people have to decide: Do we want to live in this endless cycle of violence or not

[Strawman Cometh]

sorry, I can't stand it any more.

[buccaneer morgan]

What does one have to do with Islamist in mesopotamia, of course the problem is not limited to the islamic states geography, as Spengler pointed out, is is nearly as popular as Holland's among a certain cohort, and the same likely holds true in londonistan.

[daddy]

The only thing more repugnant than Christiane Amanpour's reports on CNN is CNN advertisements of Christiane Amanpour's reporting.

[anonamom]

I've lived where people talk fast, and I now live where people speak considerably more slowly, which can be misinterpreted by the fast talkers as a lack of intelligence. It isn't.

But take it from me--this guy is just not very bright:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/he-would-prefer-not-to.php

[Jane on Ipad]

Clearly "winning " could be a threat to his golf time.

[anonamom]

I know he's in the doghouse here, but this post on "mismatch" being the source of the angst on campus is worth considering.

I know the difference of LSAT score in admissions can be significant and IIRC, some study showed that minorities who are "mismatched" to the their peers at law school have a higher failure rate on the bar than those with identical scores who attend "less selective" law schools where those scores are the mean.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/does-mismatch-help-explain-militant-black-fragility.php

[henry]

Anonamom... test scores are white privilege.

[Miss Marple 2]

Morning, all.

Russia confirms bomb on downed plane.

2 employees at Sharm-el-Sheik arrested.

France (FRANCE) is trying to put together a coalition to go after ISIS.

(Info from Fox's morning show.)

Tony Katz, our local radio guy, says the Charlie Sheen thing is being made a big deal about on the networks so that they don't have to cover how awful that press conference was.

[daddy]

But take it from me--this guy is just not very bright:

Anonamom,

Just saw some interview on BBC TV with some female French Reporter. In the discussion she casually made the common sense sarcastic comment that "limited Air Strikes are not going to contain ISIS."

It struck me that Obama's, "We've contained ISIS" comment is well on its way to becoming a meme of derision in the popular culture. Obama has be-clowned himself. It could't happen to a better narcissistic juvenile poser, but unfortunately he's still President for what feels to me like an eternity.

[Jack is Back!]

Does ISIS know that J.R.R. Tolkien co-opted that scenario and turned it into 4 or 5 blockbuster books and movies? We even knows how it all turns out. They may want to consider a plan B apocalypse.

[Miss Marple 2]

I cannot get over Obama's press conferrence. Here are the highlights:

1.He meets with his national security team "every few weeks." Every few weeks! He acted like this was a big sacrifice, too.

2.The Paris terror attack was a "setback." The French might think it is an act of war, but to him it's a setback.

3. The military being sent will just get people killed. lose limbs, be separated from their families, etc. NOT commander-in-chief material.

4.Contempt for people who don't want the Syrian refugees, and he is moving ahead with his plan. If you don't agree with him, you're a POS.

5. Press is not buying it, and when the questions got too hard, he said "he had a plane to catch to Manila." So he's a coward who cannot stand up to pointed questions.

daddy,

Feels like an eternity to me, too. I hope we live through it.

[Miss Marple 2]

Jack,

"A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of woe, and shattered shields, when the Age of Men comes crashing down; but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!”

[Miss Marple 2]

Putin's words about the plane brought down by terrorists:

"We will not wipe tears from our heart and soul. This will remain with us forever. We will find them everywhere, wherever they have hidden themselves. We will find them at any point on the planet and we will take retribution."

[Miss Marple 2]

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/260349-military-to-conduct-air-exercises-over-capitol-region

[Miss Marple 2]

http://thehayride.com/2015/11/breaking-syrian-refugee-already-missing-in-baton-rouge-area/

[Miss Marple 2]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427177/obama-uninterested-defeating-isis

[Jeff Dobbs]

TM:
Send enough US led troops to liberate Dabiq, then hold it against what should be the inevitable ISIS counterattacks. Hey, they want to die there and we want to kill them, so this is what we call a win-win.

You apparently didn't get the memo from Sally Kohn - if it's something ISIS wants, we must surely avoid it like the white privilege on rice.

[Neo]

Here's a quote on how Karl Marx felt about Mexicans:

"Is it a misfortune that magnificent California was seized from the lazy Mexicans who did not know what to do with it?"

[Miss Marple 2]

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/france-triggers-eu-mutual-defence-clause-after-paris-attacks/

My thinking is that he did this because Obama was going to resist NATO's Article V.

[James D]

From the next article in MM's link:

Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico said, “Slovak citizens and their security are of higher priority than the rights of migrants.”

It would be nice if we had a President that felt similarly about American citizens and their security.

[Miss Marple 2]

JamesD,

It is a sad day when leaders of Russia, France and Slovakia sound stronger and more patriotic than our leadership here.

[Janet]

Great post, TM...& thanks for your link Streetwiseprof.

Look at what they actually BELIEVE. Now there's an idea!

[Miss Marple 2]

http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates

At the bottom of this Steyn says he will be on Fox in half an hour or so.

[Miss Marple 2]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/16/jeb-bush-tells-closed-door-fundraiser-that-by-next-gop-debate-trump-will-be-in-decline/?tid=sm_tw

Methinks Obama isn't the only delusional one.

[Michael (fpa Patriot4Freedom)]

Streetwiseprof - Thanks for the link to your post on ISIS's eschatology.

Hope you'll drop by regularly. I think that you'll find some like-minded types here.

[Marlene]

MM @ 7:28...this is exactly why the governors have made the decision to reject refugees. That is disturbing. What happens after the 90 days that Catholic Charities resettles a refugee? They walk away?

[FTL]

What happens after the 90 days that Catholic Charities resettles a refugee?

What difference, at that point, should it make? The bigass check from Uncle Sugar for that particular transaction should've cleared by then.

[Miss Marple 2]

Marlene,

Reading that article I see Catholic Charities doesn't monitor them nor are they required to do so. As far as I can tell, they simply serve as a way to set them up in apartments and sign them up for government services, while collecting money from the feds for doing this.

I am not pleased about this and I think this is an example of how the Church has been used by the left to promote their policies.

[Old Lurker]

Anybody have any doubt whatsoever that we will have a Paris like event here in the next twelve months?

Not me. And I live in DC....and my kids in NYC.

The only argument against it would require ISIS to understand our politics enough to prefer fellow traveler Dems in power after 2016 and not a bunch of RR cowboys.

[James D]

I don't doubt it either, OL.

I think about it every day. Whenever i get on the Metro, I wonder. Or when I think about my tickets to the Kennedy Center, or going to a Caps game.

What makes it so much worse is knowing that we have a President, and a State Department, who are not interested in doing anything to prevent such an attack, and who won't shed a tear when one does take place.

[Janet]

the Church has been used by the left to promote their policies.

related - http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/resettlement_contractors_lie_to_protect_their_franchise.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

"Church World Service is a subsidiary of far left National Council of Churches. Founded in the 1950s, the NCC was the follow-on organization to the Federal Council of Churches, a communist front."

[Janet]

Here's a link to that interesting 2005 article about the planned phases - http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

I think narciso originally linked it.
Goes well with this JOM post.

[FTL]

http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-12-05

[Beasts of England]

Three Purple Hearts was just being interviewed by Scott Pelley and gave his version of the containment line and then Pelley listed the Russian plane, Paris and some other attack in the ME in the last two weeks as proof that it wasn't so. Lurch starts talk about some 'pincer' strategy, yada, yada, yada.

Pelley wasn't buying it, and they danced around the issue for a few seconds. It's pretty bad when the press finally starts pushing back against obvious prevaricating with obvious truths. Better way late than never, I guess.

[Marlene]

James, I woke up this morning thinking about all the soft targets in D.C. Sorry to be morbid. :( I think I've mentioned that when were in D.C. last Thanksgiving (when we met you and Janet for coffee) we went over to Pentagon City Mall later and I broke out in a sweat.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

404 responded to the press questions as if they were something nagging like Stanley Ann said to his drunk polygamist sperm donor which drove him away and deprived his incredibly needy bastard son of a role model.

[Miss Marple 2]

FTL,

I'd say Dilbert has the situation pretty well summarized in that strip.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Pelley would still vote for Lurch over any Repub so don't get carried away.

[FTL]

You want morbid?

From 2004 to 2010 I used to ride Metro Bus into the Pentagon from the Burke/Springfield area. The really early buses were filled almost exclusively with military and DoD civilian and contract employees.

A woman in a hijab would often board the bus at the last stop before getting onto the interstate. She frequently carried shopping bags which, judging by their excellent condition and the ease with which she carried them, looked like they were filled with empty boxes.

Fishing for an islamaphobia incident? Desensitizing people to the sight? Maybe she was headed to a shopping mall to return merchandise at a little past six in the morning.

[Miss Marple 2]

Marlene,

On Fox this morning they said that the NYPD is training for handling TWENTY-FOUR simultaneous attacks. I cannot help but think there is someo intelligence the NYPD has picked up that Obama is either ignorant of or hiding from the public.

[Cecil Turner]

The NY Times has a good article on the Russian plane crash:

On Tuesday, after hedging for 17 days, Russian officials acknowledged that the passenger jet had been downed by a bomb. “We can say definitely that this was a terrorist act,” Alexander V. Bortnikov, the head of the Federal Security Service, or F.S.B., said in remarks to Russia’s Security Council Monday night that were broadcast nationally on Tuesday morning.

An “improvised explosive device” detonated soon after the plane took off from the resort city of Sharm el Sheikh, he said, adding that “the plane disintegrated in midair, which explains the widely scattered fuselage pieces.”

It all hangs together nicely, except "disintegrated" is a bit of a stretch . . . the tail fell [was blown] off. They do finally mention finding explosive residue on the plane (which is the part that should've been tested and confirmed a while ago).

The only caveat I'd point up is that if the Russians were lying, this is exactly what it'd look like. The guy making the call--Bortnikov--is a professional spook, and lies for a living. Unlike Neradko, their FAA equivalent who needs to preserve his credibility, this guy doesn't. They also used it as an excuse to ramp up operations in the Mideast. With all the other signs pointing toward a bomb, I don't think that's a realistic conclusion, but it's not like these guys don't have a history.

[squaredance]

I posted around 4 threads back, athe the very end.

I re-post it here.

Well, as someone pointed out, "refusing" the Muslim colonizers is mostly a political gesture. The Governors cannot stop internal migration in the USA. Given how the NJ side of the NYC metroplex is, and how the Welfare state operates there, a very great many of them will find their way there.

This is really not going to be stopped. One doubts that a new administration would actively seek to deport them, and the liberal courts will in any event tie that up. The Left knows this and this is why they press on. They also know that they will pay very little for it. Sure, they may lose a few elections, but when the tide turns they will have permanent power. in the interim, their various seats in the Nomenklatura and th shadow government--the real government too--are secure.

Of, and the other Dems are not "virtue signaling", they are all in for the destruction of the USA, particularly the White, Christian, middle class. They are the dread Kulacks after all. We are nothing but tax slaves to be sucked dry and forced to submit, and then they will be on to the next victim. There is nothing at all new in this, even the racial destruction is part of it--the only new thing here is the matter of degree. Well, I take that back: what is shockingly new is the supine surrender or doe like cluelessness at the destruction of the nation right before our very eys.

You really must stop buying their rhetoric as that of misguided, vain fools. They mean our destruction--what you are calling "virtue signalling is just a cover for their aggression. They know this: so should the rest of us. Nor is it about "obedience" to Obama. He is merely the creation of their masters. It is obedience to the Party. This is always how it is with Communists for they own all that they have to the Party's political power. Without this power they are now worth very much. They are corrupt and barbaric to the very core of their being. They hate you; they hate America; they hate Western Civilization. They are morally depraved. They are not, however, fools so far as achieving their goals go. They are almost there.

There will be more waves of Muslims, and he will try with Latin America the same sort of flood that is going on now in the EU. This shall happen before the next election.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, and it well may finally and permanently entrench them in power.

The only way out is to completely remove them from power and influence of any sort--not just in politics but in all the institutions they have corrupted. This is a tall order; it is the tallest of orders. I do not see it happening short of Civil War.

I certainly do not see the GOP actually calling them out on this. The GOP, even the Cruz's of the party, still think they are debating "policy". They just fall into the trap of the Left's verbal and emotional warfare.

At this point, it may be that the Europeans will be the ones to take back their civilization. This is a profound irony given the history of the last century.

[Cecil Turner]

Anybody have any doubt whatsoever that we will have a Paris like event here in the next twelve months?

Might not be that soon, as these things take a while to plan and implement (e.g., the gap between the 1993 and 2001 WTC bombings was eight plus years). But there's no doubt it's coming, as long as we hold to this stupid course of non-strategy.

[Beasts of England]

No doubt, Captain, but any moment of normalcy is still astounding. Which, in itself, is astounding...

[jimmyk on iPhone]

"The only caveat I'd point up is that if the Russians were lying, this is exactly what it'd look like."

Weren't there other parties involved in the investigation? Egyptians at least.

[Jack is Back!]

Its in Flemish (sort of like reading narc's posts:) but they have found the two hotel rooms the creeps used in Alfortville (Val-de-Marne district SE of Paris). Found needles, syringes, chemical materials etc. Don't know if it was to pump them up with drugs (my suspicion all a long since they were on sucide mission) or to make the vests. Adjoining rooms 311 and 312.

I doubt they would make the vests there instead of bringing with them from Molenbeek. Anyway!

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20151117_01975005?_section=60721953&utm_source=standaard&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=middagmail&M_BT=234050350&adh_i=8b4b419bae386c05c470e36313216536&imai=MASTER.guid

[Old Lurker]

True, Cecil, but 9/11 had lots of moving parts to organize.

Paris seems to have required only people willing to die and off the shelf weapons.

And 1993-01 was early days in that timeline posted above at 9:00, and now we are in the sixth or seventh phases.

[Jack is Back!]

If you prefer French, here is the original article and video from Le Point.fr

http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/des-seringues-retrouvees-dans-la-chambre-d-hotel-de-salah-abdeslam-17-11-2015-1982254_23.php

[Cecil Turner]

Need I explain further? Send enough US led troops to liberate Dabiq, then hold it against what should be the inevitable ISIS counterattacks.

Might work. Just glancing at the maps, though, the easy answer is to send two divisions up through Kuwait. (Just like last time, except you don't need quite as many.)

But all this talk is academic: we lack the will, not the capability.

[Jack is Back!]

Note, they used booking.com just the rest of us to reserve the hotel rooms.

[Miss Marple 2]

squaredance,

The libs and far left are on Twitter furiously trying to shame us into accepting the refugees.

Xenophobia! Religious discrimination! Islamaphobes! Bigots!

I told Ron Fournier he could call me all the names he wanted. Didn't matter. I don't want to see my grandkids blown up.

[Jeff Dobbs]

OL:
The only argument against it would require ISIS to understand our politics enough to prefer fellow traveler Dems in power after 2016 and not a bunch of RR cowboys.

But the "prefer fellow traveler Dems" argument runs directly up against TM's post, now doesn't it.

ISIS is over there saying "Bring it!" - and Obama is over here saying, "Oh it ain't gonna be broughten".

[Jack is Back!]

We and Europe are Judeo-Christian countries. Why not triage this way: All the Chritian and Jewish refugees go to the west and all the Muslim refugees go to the Arab states. What's wrong with that?

[GMax]

I actually think Obama is saying "Dont call my bluff."

[James D]

I certainly do not see the GOP actually calling them out on this. The GOP, even the Cruz's of the party, still think they are debating "policy". They just fall into the trap of the Left's verbal and emotional warfare.

They need to all borrow a page from Trump's vocabulary at this point.
"Idiots"
"Insane"
"Crazy"
etc.

I was pleased to hear Cruz describe the refugee program as "lunacY" yesterday. But they all need to start using that language (and meaning it, of course).

The R's can't approach this as a debate between reasonable people, granting the other side a basic level of respect as decent people who just have different ideas how to make things better. Because they're not.

[Cecil Turner]

Weren't there other parties involved in the investigation? Egyptians at least.

Did they test for bomb residue? Or make a statement about it?

So far I've seen exactly one convincing bit of evidence for the bomb claim, and it comes from a professional liar (in a phony briefing with a world-class expert liar).

Not saying it's a lie . . . in fact I rather doubt it is. But any idea it's confirmed by the Egyptians is dubious.

[Threadkiller]

Might not be that soon, as these things take a while to plan and implement

Assuming they just started their planning and implementation.

[James D]

I told Ron Fournier he could call me all the names he wanted. Didn't matter. I don't want to see my grandkids blown up.

This needs to be an ad.

"ISIS used infiltrators among the Syrian refugees to murder hundreds of innocent people in Paris."

Footage of Paris, showing the dead bodies and the blood.

"The President wants to bring in tens of thousands of Syrian refugees here. Are YOU willing to die at the hands of a terrorist who sneaks in with them? Are you willing to see your children, your parents, your friends, die at their hands?"

[GMax]

I am willing to see Ron Fornier step into that circle...

[Lurker Susie]

James d

Then show pictures of the Boston Marathon.

[squaredance]

MM2: Well one is tempted to say that they are finally out in the open, but they have been sofor quite a few years now. What they are is wildly emboldened--more so than they ever have been. They appear to think that the final victory is at hand. Perhaps they are right.

How shameful that last presser of Obama was. What a sad day that any public official would hold such views; how shameful that they could be so blithely aired in public, and in deed official speech.

But what is most shameful is that there is no national outcry. But here we are.

Obama is no more craven or foolish than the nation that elected him.

What a sad day for America that this goes on, and can go on right out in the open.

Madness...absolute madness.

[Janet]

Xenophobic = love your country & want to live.

If you support marriage & strong families...
If you support life for all...
If you love your country...
If you don't believe Mohammad was some great guy worthy to be obeyed...

Then the left calls you names. ??? How weird is that?

You don't want mentally ill men to be able to go into a girl's bathroom....the left calls you a name!

It's all too weird.

[Buckeye]

It would appear that Zero is simply pissed off that the world is not going along with his narrative.

Didn't they see his Greek Columns?

[Janet]

Wonderful posts.

Call me a name. It doesn't matter. I don't want to see my kids blown up.

Call me a name. It doesn't matter. I don't want mentally ill boys allowed in my daughter's school locker room.

Call me a name. It doesn't matter. ....

Short & to the point.

[Cecil Turner]

Instalanche. Look out below!

[Janet]

FTL, that Dilbert comic strip is great.

[henry]

On the govs, they have the law on their side. Not that Obama cares.

[Dave (in MA)]

Double Instalanche.

[jimmyk]

Well, as someone pointed out, "refusing" the Muslim colonizers is mostly a political gesture. The Governors cannot stop internal migration in the USA.

I think the governors' refusal can have an impact in slowing the process and making it harder to achieve a quantitative goal. And as we've said a lot here, taking a stand can be good even if one loses the battle, even if one can't possibly win it. You can still damage the enemy and help the longer term prospects.

But, yeah, as long as some states welcome the "refugees" ultimately they can go anywhere.

[clarice]

Anonamom I first read of the mismatch and its consequences decades ago from Sowell when at the time I considered AA merely giving some poor kids a leg up. He persuaded me it was a crock--virtue signaling at the cost to those it was purportedly designed to help.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

We've gone from "total war" which was arguably too dismissive of civilian deaths to an ROE of near zero tolerance of same.
Can't anybody here play this game?

[clarice]

I think this may be more like blanket amnesty which the Fifth Circuit has said is beyond the power of the President.

Under the Constitution Congress sets the rules on immigration and admitting tens of thousands of people whom the FBI and Jeh Johnson concede we cannot properly vet (as required by existing law) and which DNI concedes is problematic makes the argument tougher for those who argue states can't (ordinarily they can't) control immigration into them.

[clarice]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/house-sets-up-task-force-on-syrian-resettlement-plan/article/2576522

[Buckeye]

jimmyk

I would go one further and say taking a stand is almost always the right thing to do.

Politics is as much a game of perception as anything. And the perception at the moment in the US is that conservatives are powerless.

I think this perception would change if Obama was spending most of his time on the defensive. More political capital he has to spend, the better.

[rse]

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-American-Education-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0743254082/ref=sr_1_35?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447775002&sr=1-35&keywords=thomas+sowell is the link to the book that makes the famous Sowell mismatch argument. This is the 2003 version even though it first came out in the 90s.

I know I first read it in 1998 because I took it with me on a vacation to the abacos with two older kids and we were there when the Asian financial crisis began.

Mismatch is consistent with the Davidson admissions counselor insisting to the black and Hispanic students at a hotel reception that they likely would not need to pay anything for college and not to worry about the list of books read in past 12 months required for app because they were counting "everything between two covers."

Within two years I am getting alumni updates about campus tolerance training because some minority students were complaining they did not 'feel' like everyone viewed them as their intellectual peers.

Peer by fiat I suppose.

Mismatch can also work to give talented minority kids the kind of choices few get anymore. Red and her good friend that our lurker met were ought with another good friend from their montessori days on april 1. While at finner he got texts from stanford, princeton, and dartmouth saying yes.

Red said it was quite surreal.

[Janet]

Win or lose the refugee battle..it is a good opportunity to shine some light on the refugee program, the student visa program, EB-5 program...ALL the "legal" programs that are bringing in millions of people.

The citizens of other countries pouring across our border are only some of the problem.

It is all lawless.

[Janet]

I can't stand that our elected representatives don't even TRY. It's like We the People have NO representation.

What is the use of a Congress then? Are they just "watchers"? They just watch what the executive branch does & then go on TV & pontificate about it or moan about it?

[Janet]

...or hold a hearing? Boy, is THAT a waste of time.

Cut off funding. Dissolve the agency. Fire people. Get going!

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

If you don't fight the refugee battle you have no standing to condemn, or preferably prosecute, those who supported it when the bodies start piling up.

[Karl Maier]

Any Strategy must take into account the continuously spawning Jihadists of the Islamic Culture. And while we want them Dead, it doesn't necessarily have to be us that kills them. So this suggestion isn't really a strategy, wouldn't end anything, and would cost America treasure and the blood of our servicemen.
I suggest a Strategy of "Containment" (prevent the ambitious Muslims from leaving for the west, forcing them to make changes in their own country), and "Divide and Conquer" (encourage the Sunni Jihadists to use all their resources killing the Shiite Jihadists, and vice-a-versa). These 2 strategies would change Islamic Culture so it stops spawning Jihadists, and would kill the continuous spawning of Jihadists in the mean time. It also doesn't cost America much, and it doesn't put American Infidels in between the different flavored Jihadists who all think Americans should have their heads cut off.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Welcome to the party, Janet. I've been railing about these gutless eunuchs not even pretending to fulfill their campaign promises only to have the apologists make excuses for their inaction.

[Jane]

How would you do that Karl?

[Cecil Turner]

We've gone from "total war" which was arguably too dismissive of civilian deaths . . .

For all of horse-face's lamentations about Jenjis Khan, AFAIK the last time we did this was the firebombings of Japanese cities.

[clarice]

Legal Insurrection:According to Kevin Appleby, the director of migration policy at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, the largest refugee resettlement organization in America, the plenary powers granted under the U.S. Constitution and the 1980 Refugee Act means that the authority whether or not to admit refugees and where to place them lies within the scope of powers granted to the federal government. However, the states still have the ability to make the process far more expensive and arduous.

Stephen I. Vladeck, a law professor at American University, told CNN, “Legally, states have no authority to do anything because the question of who should be allowed in this country is one that the Constitution commits to the federal government…[but while] a state can’t say it is legally objecting, but it can refuse to cooperate, which makes things much more difficult.”

So, at least as far as the legal issues go, the states have the ability to cut funding for refugee resettlement efforts by their own state agencies, and to direct those agencies to not participate in taking in refugees, but they will need an act of Congress to cut off funding at the federal level, and the states most likely will not be able to block the feds from taking action themselves to bring in Syrian refugees.

The answer may be political

In this specific situation, the best bet is probably not for the states to argue a strictly legal case, but to seek to win the political argument. The negative fallout from Obamacare has decimated Democrats’ ranks at both the state and federal levels. Democrats have lost both the House and the Senate, dozens of Governors and Attorneys General, and hundreds and hundreds of state legislative seats.

With about half the states already stepping forward to say they do not want unvetted Syrian refugees and they will refuse to participate or fund any such efforts, this puts two types of political pressure on the Obama administration. First, with that many states refusing to fund the handling of any Syrian refugees, this becomes a more costly operation for the federal government to manage.

Second, with the 2016 elections rapidly approaching, and so many vulnerable Democrats on the ballot in the states whose Governors want to refuse Syrian refugees, it would not be surprising if Obama got pressure, both openly and behind the scenes, from members of his own party. It is noteworthy that the list of states participating includes both early primary states Iowa and New Hampshire, as well as swing states like Florida and Ohio.

[Janet]

http://wtvr.com/2015/11/16/virginia-open-to-syrian-refugees/

"Every refugee who is settled in the U.S. undergoes intensive security screening," a statement from the governor's office read. "Nothing is more important to the Governor and his team than keeping Virginians safe.""

Well, "intensive security screening" SOUNDS tough...but how exactly are they screened? ...specific examples. How is any given information verified?

[Old Lurker]

Clarice, as I recall, they moved some of those kids last year onto military bases in various states, then bled them into the surrounding areas.

Could not any state with a Rep Gov and Rep Legislature at least say:

No admission to schools or state universities

No state or local welfare

No state or local medical care (does O'care make that illegal probably?)

No state or local housing subsidy

Make the Feds pay for all of those things then make that part of the House budget process.

[Old Lurker]

"intensive security screening", Janet?

As a caller to Mark Levin asked..."like the screening that applied to the Ft. Hood shooter?

How did that work out?"

[clarice]

OL--watch--I think the R's will attach a no federal funding for the program to the must pass budget bill and if Obama vetoes it, the govt will shut down--how do you suppose a shutdown to force this unpopular policy would sell? If he doesn't veto it, he also has lost a lot of stature.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--For all of horse-face's lamentations about Jenjis Khan, AFAIK the last time we did this was the firebombings of Japanese cities.--

Agreed. The "total war" of WWII was the only war we've ever fought that way. Even Sherman didn't, didn't try and probably couldn't slaughter civilians indiscriminately as we did through bombing campaigns.

[Janet]

We might as well have lucifer as the governor of Virginia.

"The governor left Friday for an 11-day trade mission to India and the Middle East, where he recently met with leaders of Dubai and the United Arab Emirates to discuss economic development.

U.S. Sen. Timothy M. Kaine, D-Va., who has pushed for the U.S. to accept Syrian refugees in greater numbers, blasted the state-by-state crackdown on accepting refugees.

“Our first priority must always be to protect the safety and security of American citizens,” Kaine said in a statement. “But I am very disappointed in the xenophobic response from governors across the country today who vowed to keep Syrian families who have passed rigorous background checks from entering their states..."

"rigorous background checks"
"intensive security screenings"

Describe these things to us xenophobic American citizens. How is info verified? Tell us.

Why doesn't the UAE take some refugees?

http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/article_6af9dcd8-c623-5fc2-9881-818fe427c740.html

[squaredance]

OL: that is one of the reasons why i say that pronouncements like Christie's are purely political. They have no effect but political effect, that is, the relative positions of politicians and and their parties. These things do not even have basic operation or legislative meanings at all. They have no practical outcome, not direct, not indirect. (and it is absurd to claim that Obama is sway to "political pressure", witness the aforementioned "Hispanic child immigrant" debacle. Obama could care less.)

If the states went so far as do what you asked, or even better called out the national guard and abruptly move them out of their state along with their Fed handlers, that would not be "political" at all.

As I said above, pure political posturing really does not accomplish anything other than perhaps making people feel good that some is "standing up to them". In reality though they are not actually "Standing up to them" if they do not take concrete action, and that would be immediate concrete action in this case. Making it more "costly" for the Feds? Surely that is a bad joke: 1) it is our money, and 2) they would love to spend more of it. It is not "more costly" for the Fed, as if they gave a toss about such things.

Obama and his gang have counted on this sort of limp response and know it will fail. So should we. If we want top stop it this time around we have to physically stop it and do so by the offices of state country and municipal governments, and perhaps, giving politics its due, ere, but only here, will the political fortunes of the politicians have any meaningful effect.

Foot stomping with "statements" in state legislatures and governors' mansions will not stop anything at all. The idea of "feeling better" might have it merits, but it can just as well dilute public opinion and outrage, and the let the treachery continue and grow, as it can rally people for real change.

Actions speak louder than words, and now more than ever. This the Democrats understand. The rest of us better get wise quick.

Again, people hereabouts think that we are in a political process. We are not. We are in a war--really a series of them--and apparently few outside the Left know it.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Tim Kaine, another genius from Virginia that the RINOs helped elect.

[clarice]

Congressional options to thwart the immigration plan:https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/11/paris-jihad-its-immigration-stupid

The large number of governors in opposition is a big boost to these efforts.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Again, people hereabouts think that we are in a political process. We are not. We are in a war--really a series of them--and apparently few outside the Left know it.--

That's true, but as Clausewitz noted, the two are closely intertwined.
The war here, is fought on the political battlefield, as well as the cultural one.
Unfortunately those on the right who recognize that have as their greatest enemy, not the left but those of their own party who refuse to recognize it.