Thousands of Dancing American Muslims Simply Did Not Happen

Hard though it may be to prove a negative, the Times does us all a service by talking to a guy who really is in a position to know:

A Definitive Debunking of Donald Trump’s 9/11 Claims

How alarmed were New Jersey officials by reports of Muslims dancing in the streets of Jersey City and Paterson on Sept. 11, 2001, to celebrate the destruction of the World Trade Center?

They feared riots would break out and were ready to send in the National Guard and the State Police to preserve order.

But John J. Farmer Jr., then the New Jersey attorney general and the state’s chief law enforcement officer, said on Tuesday that he ordered an investigation that very day and found the reports to be bogus, more wild stories born in the stricken hours after the attacks.

...

Few people, if any, could address the circumstances more definitively than Mr. Farmer, who went on to serve as senior counsel to the Sept. 11 commission.

In an account Mr. Farmer provided Tuesday, he described being in the state’s command center, in Liberty State Park in Jersey City, directly across the Hudson River from the burning wreckage of the trade center. The New Jersey State Police radio antenna had been on top of one of the towers, cutting off communications.

“We were forced to rely on runners for intelligence about what was happening across the river and in New Jersey,” Mr. Farmer said.

In the vacuum, rumors were flying, he said. Bombers with suicide vests were in Times Square. Saboteurs were lurking around power plants. New York City’s mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, was missing.

And then there was the wisp of a story that Mr. Farmer said was most disturbing of all: “That Muslims were dancing on the rooftops and in the streets of Jersey City and Paterson.”

Indeed, pockets of radical Islamists had set up in Jersey City in the past. The 1993 World Trade Center bombers rented a van and stored chemicals and fertilizers in that city.

Open jubilation at the mass death, Mr. Farmer said, might quickly be followed by rioting and more deaths. “If true, we would have had to mobilize the State Police and National Guard and locked the place down,” he said.

“We followed up on that report instantly because of its implications,” he added. “The word came back quickly from Jersey City, later from Paterson. False report. Never happened.”

This surely cannot prove that nobody celebrated anywhere in New Jersey, but Trump spoke of "thousands", seeing it on television, and claimed it was widely covered. Not good.

Comments

[lyle]

And one.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Imagine where Trump would be were he credible and kept the bombast while losing the unforced errors and occasional lunacy.

[GUS]

“We followed up on that report instantly because of its implications,” he added. “The word came back quickly from Jersey City, later from Paterson. False report. Never happened.”

"WE" followed up.
"THE WORD CAME BACK QUICKLY"

Total and utter MFM BULLSHIT.

[daddy]

Baj Humbug, TM. Next thing I know you'll be telling me this ain't real:

Or this:

Or even this:

It's all try, every bit of it, and don't you go trying to tell me otherwise 'cause Billions and Billions of American's know it.

[GUS]

Are you REPUBLICAN BASTARDS still AFRAID of CANDY CROWLEY and WIDOWS and 3 year olds!!!??

This is our FECKING President. SERIOUSLY.

[Dave (in MA)]

Don't get between CANDY CROWLEY and the buffet table.

1000 muslims celebrating 9-11
Al Qaeda has been neutralized
ISIS is contained
Dodging sniper fire in Bosnia
Inadvertent whistle

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

The middle one is definitely true because it was caused by evil Western nookulur bombs, not benevolent Persian ones.

[Carol Herman]

Trump's right. Maybe, I'm overly sensitive because I'm Jewish ... but there's an active dislike present. It's not just Iran (where the people are Persians, and they don't want to be mis-identified as arabs ...

But back in '79 about a million people in Tehran became part of the mob that attacked the US Embassy. The hate didn't arrive overnight. It stewed and brewed. And, still does.

[Threadkiller]

Hopefully Trump doesn't claim that there is 30 pages of the 9/11 Commission report that should be declassified.

That would sink him to be off on the actual page count.

[Threadkiller]

From 2014:

Nobody has been arrested or charged in the attack at PG&E Corp.'s Metcalf transmission substation. It is an incident of which few Americans are aware. But one former federal regulator is calling it a terrorist act that, if it were widely replicated across the country, could take down the U.S. electric grid and black out much of the country.

The attack was "the most significant incident of domestic terrorism involving the grid that has ever occurred" in the U.S., said Jon Wellinghoff, who was chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission at the time.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304851104579359141941621778

False reports when it happened?

[Threadkiller]

http://www.wnd.com/2015/11/mother-of-all-hacks-exploding-exponentially/

Great.

[henry]

Right.... Slick never had sexual relations with that woman either.

[Sandy Daze]

TK,

I have received two letters, the first last May /June when we were first learning of the personal identity hack, with a USG offer of 18 months identity protection, and then a second letter only two weeks ago, from another branch of OPM, explaining additional potential compromise. This letter offered 36 months of identity monitoring (provided at USG expense, from a different company).

If there are no more compromises of such data, I figure in 50 years or so, after the youngest who had their data compromised die off, the compromise will resolve itself.

The tin foil hat guy tells me the compromise was deliberate, designed to weaken those America depends upon to protect the nation.

But I figure, nah, the government would never act contrary to the best interests of the citizens who have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

[rse]

Everybody on the road today drive carefully. Red and my mother separately were on different stretches of 75 yesterday and said it was the worst driving conditions they had ever seen in terms of crowded roads and stupid maneuvers.

[Another Bob]

Communications were difficult but they got followup on this report "instantly" and "quickly"?

Trump and "thousands" may have been exaggeration, confused with TV reports of celebrations at places in the ME.

But I smell PC in these flat denials.

[anonamom]

I am so ambivalent about posting this.
Do NOT begin this day by reading it---but please read it sometime.
(Maybe open it, and email the link to yourself?)

The utter evil of what ISIS is could not be more clearly conveyed:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/helping-the-escaped-slaves-of-isis-1448325989

[James D.]

TM, I hate to totally disagree with you, but...

I totally disagree with you. I don't even care if it didn't happen. It's time for us to stop playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules. A lot of people believe it happened, and it is credible that it could have. Why take the side of our enemies, who lie about us all the time.

We are to this day slandered with the spitting on Pelosi & co after Obamacare passing, and all the rest of the Dem lies. I don't give a damn if Trump is wrong, or even flat-out lying about this.

[Miss Marple 2]

My opinion on this:

1. I SAW the demonstrations in Palestine and I SAW the report of demonstrations in New Jersey and a story that they were investigating.

2. It does not surprise me that the press cannot find video. They have apparently been unable to find video of the jumpers for 14 years, even though we saw it live.

3. In fact, except for the once-a-year rebroadcast of the coverage on MSNBC (the only time I watch that channel) shots of the planes going into the buildings are few and far between.

We have terrorists in this country right now. Obama wants to bring in more with the refugees. I am not inclined to give a group with proven anti-American sentiments the benefit of the doubt.

And the New York Times has been caught lying more often than I can count.

So respectfully, I don't care if Trump is wrong. Apparently the big refutation is "No, it was the Palestinians." Then they will act all indignant that Bibi doesn't hand them back Jerusalem.

To heck with that.

[Jeff Dobbs]

I care if Trump is flat out lying about this. But I don't think he is. I think he misremembered.

I do think it matters, and I care about it.

Believe it or not, lying in the service of "sticking it to" the MFM or the left can actually be counterproductive in terms of getting votes.

The disgust Americans feel toward the government and politicians lies deeply in the sense that people are being lied to in service of base political motives.

Trump's brand is that he is the brave truth-teller who isn't afraid of leveling with the American public.

Making shit up hurts that brand - not with us who are so pissed off at the left specifically, and so much so that we would vote for a fire hydrant before we would vote for Hillary - but it definitely can hurt with the LIVs who are receptive to the Trump brand because he is an outsider and different from a typical politician and the idea that he would be different.

[Rocco]

I don't know if Debbie Schlussel has any credibilty but she reported it was MTV who first reported that thousands cheered in Paterson.

[henry]

Even when you win, you lose. Pikes seem a moderate way to resolve this, the courts have spoken except they never finish speaking.

[Sandy Daze]

Steyn:

"But the moment passed, and liberals stopped writing such stories, and then denied such stories had ever been written. And year on year more of the specifics of that day were disappeared - starting with the images of the men and women who hurled themselves from the upper floors of the Twin Towers for the chance to spend their final moments falling through clean, bright sky rather than in that hellish inferno. A soft-focus blur, a generalized sadness, a yellow ribbon or two is all that remains. Yet there were Muslims who cheered 9/11 in Oslo and in Yorkshire, and if like Donald Trump you live in New York City, you would have read and heard similar stories from your own neighborhood.

There are two competing narratives here. If you loathe Trump, the story is: Trump's suggestion of terrorist sympathizers among American Muslims is outrageous. But, if you're minded to support Trump, the story is: Obama's and Hillary's and Kerry's assertion that there are no terrorist sympathizers among Muslims is not only ludicrous but mendacious and deeply weird in its relentless insistence. Glenn Kessler's "fact-check" confirms the latter."

[Sandy Daze]

http://www.steynonline.com/7313/jersey-sure

The link to the above

[James D.]

rse, I just now saw your email and replied...

[James D.]

Hit @ 7:48

I get what you're saying. But I think it's a mistake to let the MSM and the progs choose the rules and the playing field. Trump makes a claim, and we have to dig into 15-year-old archives of probably thousands or tens of thousands of hours of video, and amazingly, they're able to declare in ten minutes flat that there's no proof, therefore Trump is a liar.

The progs make a claim, with no proof, or with the negative proof readily available, and it's believed unquestioningly.

We will never win with those terms. Never. And I'm tired of losing.

[buccaneer morgan]

Note they haven't interviewed Bret schundler who was the mayor then, and was thrown to the sharks by stay puft, first pic, Paterson also happens to be where on the hijacker enablers still lives

[Buckeye]

I remember hearing about celebrations in the US. But can't say that what I heard is true.

In the aftermath of most significant events, lots of misinformation seems to be the order of the day. Unsubstantiated rumors get reported as fact. We are talking about journalists, not the sharpest tacks in the box.

Trump relies on hyperbole. It is part of his brand. Many of his supporters like the fact that what comes out of his mouth is outrageous, and he isn't afraid to say it.

I think he "believes" what he says, but does not feel obligated to "fact check" anything. Instead of "thinking out of the box", Trump "talks out of the box".

[buccaneer morgan]

This is the same publication that published edited phone and audio transcripts, re a certain case to create a narrative, and has not yet apologized for same.

[FTL]

The narrative that this administration and its handmaidens in the leftist MFM pushed after the Paris attacks says it all. A couple of their loyal journolistas went wobbly on them and spilled the beans.

They are begging beforehand not to be stood against the wall after ISIS pulls off an attack here. If we spare these leftards their rightful due, the terrorists will have won.

[buccaneer morgan]

If they were so sure, they would publish the documents not farmer's second hand account.

[Miss Marple 2]

I don't think Trump is lying. He probably conflated the video shots of the Palestinians celebrating with the news reports of cheers in New Jersey.

If I told you I heard reports of car bombs in DC on 9/11, I wouldn't be lying. I would be telling the truth because that is what I heard.

[NK]

Trump's statement was erroneous. That was not a big deal; politicians create narratives and their recollections are then shaped by their narrative. Trump doubling down and blaming others for suppressing 'the facts'is revealing of his methods. I never met him, never represented him, never litigated against him, but not a fan because I have represented investors in his projects, and he treats voters like potential investors. If you dumped on Clinton's bogus recollection of burning black churches, Torricelli's bogus Kefauver committee TV broadcasts, or any one of Obummer's or Kerry's serial fables, time to dump on Trump's doubling down. This just isn't the time for another narcissist in the WH.

[Miss Marple 2]

While everyone is concerned with Donald Trump's accuracy, here's an interesting development:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427619/state-department-iran-deal-not-legally-binding-signed?utm_content=bufferb4499&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[buccaneer morgan]

Of course we signed up for ' the never pay' insurance.

[NK]

Buckeye @8:14: that is a fair summary of DT's business methods. And some investors love his hyperbole, it makes them feel important and part of his brand. Some voters feel the same way, and they don't even have to give him mucho cash in return for mere promises of a profitable return. He's one of the best self-promoters of my adult lifetime.

[buccaneer morgan]

How about that corker bill, wonderful wasn't it, they have increased their stockpile by 20 %, since it was signed.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Miss Marple:
If I told you I heard reports of car bombs in DC on 9/11, I wouldn't be lying. I would be telling the truth because that is what I heard.

That's why it's frustrating that Trump doesn't say "I heard reports".

Rather, it's "I saw it with my own eyes" and "it was well covered" - as if everyone saw it with their own eyes, and anyone denying they saw it is the one who is lying.

Buckeye:
Trump relies on hyperbole. It is part of his brand. Many of his supporters like the fact that what comes out of his mouth is outrageous, and he isn't afraid to say it.

The percentage of the voting public who are in that category is not large enough to get Trump elected President - but it might be large enough to get him the nomination, as long as the rest of the field remains fragmented.

James:
But I think it's a mistake to let the MSM and the progs choose the rules and the playing field...We will never win with those terms. Never. And I'm tired of losing.

We can agree to disagree on this. My contention is that being forced to defend something that isn't true (over and over) will not result in winning any more than "let[ting] the MSM and the progs choose the rules and the playing field".

[Jack is Back! (On Alert!)]

Over 200 jumped from the twin towers on that fateful day. There is a special exhibit at the 911 Museum devoted to that fact.

We were living in London on 911. We had Fox and MSNBC as well as Sky, BBC, ITV and France5. They all showed Muzzies around the world cheering, laughing, dancing and euphoric. I really give a rat's ass if Trump could see the jumpers from his digs on 5th Avenue (which even Chuck Yeager in his prime would have had a hard time doing without the Hubble space telescope) or whether he saw thousands in Jersey City celebrate.

What is important right now to me is to keep bringing this up since the millenials were little kids, preteens or teenagers back then and my have no judgemental memory of it. Lets continue to remind a new generation of Americans that the same evil continues to exist and are a threat to us every day.

Never forget.

[buccaneer morgan]

Exactly, and they make it look like paris is some quantitatively different thing when it resembles the methods of london, suicide vests and the same personnel as madrid, nationals of north african background.

[NK]

The 8:33 and 8:34 comments are the way to go IMO. Why would we want to emulate the Prog Media tactics which have now been so discredited with a majority of voters?We have so many facts to work with, push actual facts, and win.

[Miss Marple 2]

NK,

Pushing facts didn't help Mitt Romney.

[narciso]

I want contemporaneous records,

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/11/consensus-trump-not-lying-about-911-videos/

[narciso]

odd how usa today, didn't notice this, while it slagged ayotte:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/22/followers-of-a-mysterious-turkish-islamic-cleric-have-donated-heavily-to-hillarys-campaign-and-family-charity/

[Eric in Boise]

worst...conditions they had ever seen in terms of...stupid maneuvers.

With just a bit of editing, it applies to the whole administration!

An early Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Threadkiller]

And then there was the wisp of a story that Mr. Farmer said was most disturbing of all: “That Muslims were dancing on the rooftops and in the streets of Jersey City and Paterson.”

Indeed, pockets of radical Islamists had set up in Jersey City in the past. The 1993 World Trade Center bombers rented a van and stored chemicals and fertilizers in that city.

What the hell is a "wisp of a story?" Is Farmer remembering that he heard this "wisp" with his own two ears?

Ah, who cares...

I think the safe bet is to believe the elected top cop of a state rapidly becoming the eye of the immediate scrutiny of the US in the wake of building a legacy of not stopping the the WTC from being attacked twice.

BTW, was he thinking "'pockets' of muzzies have been here in the 'past'" while he was in the "vacuum" during the attack, or is that how we all should remember it now?

[Threadkiller]

The tin foil hat guy tells me the compromise was deliberate, designed to weaken those America depends upon to protect the nation.

But I figure, nah, the government would never act contrary to the best interests of the citizens who have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

I standy with Sandy!

[Jeff Dobbs]

Miss Marple:
Pushing facts didn't help Mitt Romney.

What is actually known is that what Romney did didn't get Romney elected.

Romney didn't "push" much of anything. He ran, hat tip Rick, the Goldilocks Optimum campaign.

Romney chose not to "push" his personal narrative - one that would have gone a long way to counter the heartless, loves-to-fire-people, out-of-touch, rich white guy who doesn't care about the working class narrative that everyone and his dog knew Team Obama would be "pushing" like a Salt n Pepa song.

Romney "pushed" on Obama in the first debate. Yay! Romney let himself get "pushed" around in the third debate by Candy. Boo! The "fact" that Benghazi was not a response to a video and was in fact a terrorist attack - and Obama refused to call it such out of political expediency . . . is something that remained completely un-pushed. Romney should have pushed there. But that's not to say that Romney should have said, "I saw video of the attack on the night it went down, and there were terrorists there with rocket launchers..."

[Miss Marple 2]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3315739/The-tranquil-Swedish-village-living-hell-refugee-invasion-locals-migrants-throw-stones-children-aged-five-need-POLICE-ESCORT-school.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

[NK]

Romney wasn't a good candidate b/c he was the anti-Trump. He relied entirely on facts, he didn't promote himself at all and didn't woo working class conservatives. That worked for voters like me, but not ambivalent voters who were there to be had. Cruz and Carly are more than bombastic enough to win, and Rubio is liked by more than enough women to win. Either of those 2 men with Carly F (or another equally tough and energetic woman) as VP beat Hilligula and the vast Prog Media army. Of course, I don't think Hilligula will be the nominee.

[narciso]

Carlos Slims didn't even try to sew Alphonse and Gaston's mutterings into a coherent form, Bezos,
did more snipping then Howard Hunt,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-france-to-press-allies-for-more-assets-in-fight-against-the-islamic-state/2015/11/24/

[Miss Marple 2]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/one-of-two-pilots-of-downed-russian-plane-rescued-in-a-special-operation/2015/11/25/dc11881c-92fd-11e5-befa-99ceebcbb272_story.html

More important part of story: Moscow is claiming it was a planned provocation.

I ask myself who benefits from this shoot-down. One answer is Obama, who can avoid actually attacking ISIS with Russia by claiming NATO partner attacked. A clue was his "Turkey has the right to dfend itself" statement with Hollande.

So Obama can continue with his non-bombing bombing campaign and Russia will continue to concentrate on propping up Assad, who still is in power because Russia wants him.

And ISIS will continue to grow.

[Threadkiller]

Romney relied on the facts when he railed on Todd Akin.

[Janet]

It is rich how this story matters to the MFM after living through their complete embrace of anything Obama said about himself as a candidate.
They not only believed everything....they fainted & wet themselves over the wonderfulness of all Obama's lies.

[narciso]

look how far they bend back to cover for him,

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/barack-obama-isis-paris-attacks-drones-intelligence-216196

[Thomas Collins]

My conclusions are (I) Muslims were celebrating in NJ and (ii) Trump most likely exaggerated the number. In the pantheon of politicians' exaggerations, this one barely registers on the exaggeration meter. I will grant the celebrants this, however: There were probably many non-Muslims in academia also celebrating, if only to themselves and their friends.

[Thomas Collins]

I continue to hope the Trumpster balloon bursts. But I have trouble thinking of any Trump statement on a policy matter that comes close in idiocy to Barry Obama's classification of ISIS as the jayvee team.

[narciso]

they were certainly varsity, and from that kyle orton stream of links, they were at the core of the Tikriti mob's command structure,

[Threadkiller]

This happened the week of the 10 year anniversary of the "wisp" that the AG of NJ remembers clearly for all of us.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Southwest_blackout

Here is an example of the early conclusive reporting:

1 Man Kills Power for Millions in U.S. Southwest

Sept, 8 2011

A single worker's error led to a massive power outage that swept across Arizona, Southern California and Mexico, left millions of people in the dark and brought major West Coast cities to a standstill, according to a local power company.

The North Gila-Hassayampa 500 kV transmission line near Yuma, Ariz. was tripped offline when a single APS employee was carrying out a procedure in the North Gila substation, according to Arizona Power Service.

Typically, in such an instance, the outage would be isolated to the Yuma area. The investigation is now focusing on the reason that did not occur in this case, APS said Thursday....

...San Diego Gas & Electric Co. president and CEO Michael Niggli earlier said that 1.4 million affected customers could be without power through the night and into Friday...

... There was "no indication that this event was caused by terrorism," Niggli said earlier today, adding that the agency was working with the California Independent System Operator to bring them back online.

The outage, which started at 4 p.m. PST, appeared to stretch west from Yuma to San Diego, as far north as San Clemente, Calif., and as far south as the Baja peninsula in Mexico.

The loss of power led to a shutdown of two reactors at the San Onofre nuclear power plant.

SoCal and AZ and Mexico go dark and a Nuclear plant is rendered useless due to a single low level button pusher? Maybe the intrepid reporters dove into the idea of terrorism and did an exhaustive bit of research. Let's see:

Viewers of ABC affiliate KESQ in Palm Springs, Calif., called in to say they heard a massive explosion at a substation in Coachella. Those reports could not be immediately confirmed.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/electrical-worker-blamed-leaving-millions-power-california-arizona/story?id=14478198

There you have it! No confirmation.

For what it is worth I remember hearing people calling into San Diego's KOGO, when Roger Hedgecock was the afternoon show, and reporting the explosions.

The Feds and the power company remember it differently...

[Jim Miller]

One of the unfortunate facts of life is that -- thanks to our "mainstream" media -- Democrats can get away with dirty tactics that Republicans can't.

Here's the obvious example: Can you name one prominent Democrat who paid a price with our "mainstream" reporters for connecting George W. Bush to the Nazis? But a Republican who suggested that an elected Democrat was flirting with communism would be attacked.

Or consider the Willie Horton issue from the 1988
election. The coverage of the story won a Pulitzer Prize for a Massachusetts newspaper. It was first used by Al Gore in the primaries. (I believe the elder Cuomo suggested it to him, but could be wrong about that.)

But you would have to look hard to find a "mainstream" journalist who thinks that tainted the newspaper's record, or Gore's record.

That double standard isn't "fair", but life almost never is.

Republicans who want to win are generally better off doing the right thing, telling the truth, rather than throwing mud back at the Democrats.

If the point still isn't obvious to you, imagine you are in a football game where the refs are favoring the other team. Suppose you take an illegal hit. If you want to win, should you retaliate?

No, because the refs will call you for the retaliation, even though they ignored the original offense.

[narciso]

winning isn't what they are going is it,

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/427632/new-kasich-web-video-donald-trump-pretty-much-nazi-right-jim-geraghty

[Appalled]

Miss M and James D:

Please think about what Trump's lie is designed to accomplish. It's meant to support the idea that, right now, there are many Muslims in this country who cheered Osama Bin Laden, and who are likely threats. It is meant to make us think that, hey, maybe this group needs to be watched, surveiled, maybe have a few rights curtailed, because, if they are Muslim, they might support Isis.

It's best, at the very least, to have those kind of conversations based on facts, rather than exaggerations.

[JMHanes]

James D:

"I totally disagree with you. I don't even care if it didn't happen. It's time for us to stop playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules. A lot of people believe it happened, and it is credible that it could have. Why take the side of our enemies, who lie about us all the time."

It's all about the narrative? Metaphorical truth? Do you really want to go down that Progressive taactical road?

I appreciate Trump's role as a "vanguard" figure, but the idea of making a psychological, ideological, loose canon, our nominee, let alone our President, gives me the chills. I doubt the latter will happen, however. Despite what the polls say now, Hillary and the media will crush him, once they start appearing on the same stage. He'll spend his time playing defense over stuff like this instead of zeroing in on Hillary, which will suit her just fine. Hell, he's even been a Clinton crony in the past, and I guarantee he's got buried bodies in oppo research files too.

[Janet]

from narciso's 9:22 -

Obama usually resists what he and his aides usually brush off as pointless theatrics that they think would come across as fake anyway.

Hah! Pointless theatrics is all this administration has, for heaven's sake!

[Jim Miller]

One other thing: It wasn't just Muslims who excused, or even celebrated, the 9/11 attack. Some on the far left did, as did a few on the far right.

[narciso]

yes, CNN had Van Jones, one of the highest ranking 9/11 denialists denouncing trump, of course he wants to deny the whole thing,

[Threadkiller]

Appalled, hypothetically speaking, if the AG was lying about the events, what would that lie be trying to accomplish?

[Johns_Creek_Bill]

Romney was a lousy candidate bitnhe would have been a great President.

Trump is a great candidate who would be a lousy President.

[narciso]

trying to cover up his negligence bordering on malpractice,

she's the other tiger beat reporter, the ltrypophan must have hit earlier,

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/us/politics/frances-ambassador-knows-how-to-throw-an-elbow.html?ref=us

[Jeff Dobbs]

Jim:
If the point still isn't obvious to you, imagine you are in a football game where the refs are favoring the other team. Suppose you take an illegal hit. If you want to win, should you retaliate?

No, because the refs will call you for the retaliation, even though they ignored the original offense.

I think the analogy carries things too far.

The MSM is not the official, rules-defined referee in politics/elections.

If a ref is wrong in football, tough cookies - a team has to live with the call. I mean, the team gets a couple of challenges . . . to be reviewed by the refs.

In politics, the "refs" can be overruled by the truth if a candidate or party pushes back. And in politics every call can be challenged.

The media has lost a lot of the power they held even 8 years ago - and more people today question their objectivity, and start from the correct presumption that they are liberal and biased.

That said, you don't want to have to go up against them when your guy was three yards into the backfield unprovoked to protest the off-sides call.

But neither do you have to accept that off-sides call with your guy three yards into the backfield when the center was waving the ball around after the quarterback put his hands . . . well, that place where a quarterback puts his hands to take the snap.

[narciso]

No who's being naive, of course they are,

if the contemporaneous accounts don't suffice, second hand recollections don't either, we've been through this carp with Carson, sources Carlos Slim's couldn't bother to find, ads they could bother to dig up from archives,

[Jeff Dobbs]

Appalled:
It wasn't just Muslims who excused, or even celebrated, the 9/11 attack. Some on the far left did, as did a few on the far right.

I'm not sure the pastor for 20 years of the person we would next elect president really "celebrated" 9/11 . . . but he sure made a show of proclaiming that it was our own damn fault.

Of course, Obama never heard that sermon. I mean, if only he had read about it in the newspapers prior to his 2008 campaign, he would have been madder than anyone about it. Although, he can no more disown that pastor than he can his own white grandmother, who, by the way, was kinda racist.

[James D.]

It's all about the narrative? Metaphorical truth? Do you really want to go down that Progressive taactical road?

We're already there. That's where the majority of the electorate is (thanks in large part to the damage progs have done in our education system).

I don't think the old standards apply. I don't think trying to stick to the high road, or to facts, will work. The left has spent 50 years training people from childhood to respond only to emotion, to listen to the loudest voice, to see reason or honesty or self-criticism as weakness.

We didn't make those rules, we didn't create that electorate, but we're stuck with it. Nitpicking Trump's statements (or any R's statements) only serves to help the progs. I'm done with that.

I would rather win dishonestly or dishonorably, than lose.

[narciso]

exactly, what did it profit us, to push Nixon out of office, when Clinton would employ his arguments 20 years later, to great success,

[Janet]

yes, CNN had Van Jones, one of the highest ranking 9/11 denialists denouncing trump, of course he wants to deny the whole thing,

Excellent point.

Let's look at the lies of the "journalists" in the MFM. Let's look at their selective amplification. Let's look at their purposeful false memories. Hell, the entire movie "Truth" is a purposeful damn lie.
It is absurd that this Trump statement is being made into a big deal.

[narciso]

re matters more relevant, the Sultan through MIT,
their spy service, has been supporting Salafi like Nusra Front, and yes, Islamic State, for the longest time, eventually some of the scorpions have stung, and they've caged a few, so how is yesterday's stunt, not running cover for them,

[Buckeye]

"It's meant to support the idea that, right now, there are many Muslims in this country who cheered Osama Bin Laden, and who are likely threats. It is meant to make us think that, hey, maybe this group needs to be watched, surveiled, maybe have a few rights curtailed, because, if they are Muslim, they might support Isis."

Appalled, pull your head out of your ass.

Of course there a Muslims who cheered OBL in this country.

Of course there are some who need to be watched.

Of course there are some that support ISIS.

In fact there are many, many Muslims here who hate your guts, and if if you don't believe that you are a fool.

And quite frankly, when I meet a Muslim who has a dozen or more generations of family who have fought and some who have died for this country, I will give them the same benefit of the doubt I give my kooky liberal cousins.

[Appalled]

James D:

I would rather win dishonestly or dishonorably, than lose.

Under those circumstances, how will you know you won?

[Jim Miller]

Jeff - I'm not sure we disagree.

I wasn't saying the football player shouldn't complain, I was saying that he shouldn't, for very practical reasons, copy the other guy's dirty tactics.

The late, sainted John Wooden would complain if he thought his team wasn't being treated fairly by the refs. But he was smart about the way he did it. If I recall correctly, one of his tactics was to urge the refs not to be "homers" (when UCLA was the visiting team, of course).

[GMax]

I may have missed it where Appalled called the liar extraordinare in the race, well a liar. But he is quick to call something a lie when its a Republican. HMMMMMM

[narciso]

after the shenanigans the Dems pulled in 2000, with that ridiculous 37 day recount, after the high pitched whines over Ahia, after the tens of thousands of suspect ballots in Ahia, in 2008, shirley you can't be serious,

[James D.]

Appalled:

When the other side begs for mercy and concedes defeat. Just like how any other war ends.

[Miss Marple 2]

Janet,

The reason it is being made into a big deal is that it gets Republicans arguing with each other. Sooner or later someone will say something intemperate about Muslims or democrats and then the media will run with that.

I think the best answer to the media and certain GOP people is Andrew Breitbart's one-word answer:

"So?"

I am not going to get in this argument. I know what I saw and heard reported on TV. The intervening years have not convinced me that the media should be the final arbiters of truth.

If Trump is wrong, it's a faulty memory. And I don't care if he's "doubled down" because he believes his recollection, as opposed tot he "fact-checkers," who have been demonstrated many times to be either deliberately lying or hiding information.

Provable, intentional lies by Obama over healthcare, Middle East strategy, IRS infractions and the rest get NO coverage.

So I simply am not playing this game they have concocted.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Romney would have been a terrible President no matter what the towel folders say. Poppy Bush revisited.

[Thomas Collins]

Jim Miller, re your 9:31 AM post: It takes more savvy retaliation by the GOP. In your hypothetical, later in the game, a teammate might retaliate in a pile-up. I agree that because of biased oligarchy media, the Dems can be more openly outrageous. But a Lee Atwater/Sun Tzu type would figure out a way to use oligarchy media against itself. I know: Neither Sun Tzu nor Lee Atwater are walking through that door. But hope springs eternal in me that the eventual GOP nominee will have a master or mistress of strategy and tactics running the campaign.

[Janet]

Excellent, MM. I agree.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

The MFM is good at provoking the circular firing squad. Some people never learn.

[Janet]

This story shows what tools the MFM are -

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/25/leaked-emails-reveal-suspended-cnn-reporter-worked-with-clinton-aide-to-target-rand-paul-in-2013/

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/curtis-houck/2015/11/24/suspended-cnn-reporter-found-have-coordinated-tweets-state

[Threadkiller]

Has AG Farmer endorsed a candidate yet?

[narciso]

striking, I didn't know about that, then again I only follow CNN,' when needs must' like when trapped in a doctor's office, or a educational institution, where that is what they play in the lounge,

[Thomas Collins]

I agree, Jim Miller, that Wooden could get his way without going all Trumpster. But, to extend your example, one problem GOP has is that the refs in this case, oligarchy media, would take being a "homer" (defined as a "Demer") as a compliment.

[Beasts of England]

Trump has also said that he witnessed people jumping for the Trade Centers. The lefty MFM is erupting over this, as well. I'm with Miss Marple: so what?

He's reminding people that there are those who applauded 9-11 and bringing to the forefront that Islamic Terrorism forced people to chose between burning to death or leaping to it.

And while I think most folks remember these events, there are many - due to the media blackout of the footage - who do not.

[henry]

A note from the Chitown Unit:

FYI: Celebrations in Chicago on 9/11 did happen. As the City was evacuated around 9AM local time, the roads out were jammed. Traders who took cabs out driven by furriners who took great glee lauding the attack. Some drivers were pulled into back seats for rigorous debates. Others who went through Paki neighborhoods saw the street dancing, and adjusted their right of way accordingly.

It was widespread and uncovered here.

[Beasts of England]

jumping *from*

[Thomas Collins]

I denounce myself in advance for bringing this up.

TK, did you know that the Second Circus has scheduled for early March oral argument on the NFL appeal of Brady's and the NFLPA's lower court win? Perhaps Some Guy will return for a thread on that!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/23/tom-brady-appeal-hearing-set-for-march-3/

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Has Goodell submitted to concussion protocol yet or does he just like getting beat in the head? I am second to none in hatred of Kraft's mercenaries but this quixotic venture left stoopid in the dust a long time ago.

[Buckeye]

Hit said:

"The percentage of the voting public who are in that category is not large enough to get Trump elected President - but it might be large enough to get him the nomination, as long as the rest of the field remains fragmented."

I agree, and this is what worries me the most, even more than a Trump presidency.

I am not convinced that a President Trump is a for sure disaster, but it could be. He shoots from the hip in a way that at times seems grossly undisciplined.

But when the Media is in his sights, got to admit I like it when he hits the target.

[JMHanes]

Miss Marple:

Just when you think your jaw couldn't drop any further! From the article on the Iran deal you linked:

“The Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) is not a treaty or an executive agreement, and is not a signed document,” wrote Julia Frifield, the State Department assistant secretary for legislative affairs, in the November 19 letter. Frifield wrote the letter in response to a letter Pompeo sent Secretary of State John Kerry, in which he observed that the deal the president had submitted to Congress was unsigned and wondered if the administration had given lawmakers the final agreement.

John Kerry recently said that the Admin plans to go the not-a-treaty route at COP21 in Paris too.

narciso:

I got a 404 for your WaPo link, but a search turned up the new URL: U.S., France to press allies for more assets. It was a helpful summary wrt to the current state of play & players on the ground.

I'm not sure whether I picked up this link here, or on my own, but just in case any of my fellow CACKLERS missed it, the Daily Caller points to Tony Rezko as "Obama's Other Syrian Problem." I don't actually recall the Arab American Action Network, but this kind of thing is not exactly a surprise:

Overall, Rezko gave at least $263,000 in contributions to Obama for his 2004 Senate bid. In the end, Obama said in the Chicago Tribune interview he gave $160,000 to charity when the Rezko contributions were disclosed.

So, do we think this President's post-prez charitable ventures will hold a candle to the Clinton's?

[Threadkiller]

I miss Some Guy.

[Jeff Dobbs]

JMH:
So, do we think this President's post-prez charitable ventures will hold a candle to the Clinton's?

My thoughts on the subject a while back...

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2015/05/hillary-will-not-follow-in-obamas-footsteps.html

[Threadkiller]

Interesting:

Farmer's book, The Ground Truth: The Untold Story of America Under Attack On 9/11,[3]was released days before the eighth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. In "The Ground Truth," Farmer made the following controversial statement: “At some level of government,” says Dean Farmer, “at some point in time, a decision was made not to tell the truth about the national response to the attacks on the morning of 9/11. We owe the truth to the families of the victims of 9/11. We owe it to the American public as well, because only by understanding what has gone wrong in the past can we assure our nation’s safety in the future.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Farmer,_Jr.

So are Farmer's eyes and ears now remembering what the government told him to remember then, or is he remembering what they told him to remember now?

He could be waiting for instructions on what he soon will be remembering as well.

His book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ground-Truth-Untold-America/dp/B005K5JDM6

I'll see if there is a "Wisp"apadia link for the deniers.