The No-Fly List And The Cornyn Amendment

The Cornyn amendment was offered by Republicans as an alternative to the Feinstein amendment. Here is a WaPo description of both:

The Senate rejected a measure... from Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) to prevent individuals on the terror watch list from purchasing firearms on a 45 to 54 vote. The amendments were offered  to an Obamacare repeal package currently being debated in the Senate and they needed 60 votes to be adopted.

Pretty cursory, but Prof. Volokh has more here, and his theme is an utter disregard for due process. I am not a parliamentarian but the 60 votes were apparently needed to suspend a rule and consider the amendment to be in order.

Over to the Cornyn alternative:

To counter Feinstein’s amendment, Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn (R-Texas) proposed a measure that would give the attorney general the power to impose a 72-hour delay for individuals on the terror watch list seeking to purchase a gun and it could become a permanent ban if a judge determines there is probable cause during that time window.

Cornyn argued that Feinstein’s amendment was “un-American” and violated individuals’ constitutional rights by potentially preventing someone mistakenly on the terror watch list from purchasing a firearm. Cornyn recalled that the late Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) was once put on the terror watch list by mistake and he argued Feinstein’s amendment presupposed “that the federal government is omniscient and all-competent.”

That didn’t sit well with Democrats.

“To use Sen. Kennedy – let him be on the watch list, he’s not going to go buy a gun and hurt anybody,” Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) argued, calling Cornyn’s alternative “dangerous” and “ridiculous.”

Cornyn’s amendment failed by a vote of 55 to 45.

The Cornyn failure was at least a majority, and since you ask, it included three Democrats with fifty-two Republicans. Yes, Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) was a yea. The Nays were all Democrat.

Both amendments can be found in this .pdf file - NoFlyFeinsteinCornyn. Search on "Feinstein" or head to p. 65 for one, then "Cornyn" or p. 75 for the other. The gist of the Cornyn proposal is shown as a picture below.

My question - evidently the Republican Senate was behind this, so one presumes the Cornyn amendment meets the due process concerns aired by Messrs. Volokh, Cooke and others. But have they confirmed that?

And a second question - just what are the Democratic objections? Isn't this at least half a loaf, is it too grave an encroachment on law enforcement "privileges", too hopelessly cumbersome, or what?

Just offhand, if the 2,000 figure in ten years cited by the Administration is meaningful, that is less than one case per business day. They're too busy?

And I feel obliged to add this NY Times editorial denouncing the no-fly list with passion and conviction in April 2014:

After eight years of confounding litigation and coordinated intransigence, the Justice Department this week grudgingly informed Rahinah Ibrahim, a Malaysian architecture professor, that she was no longer on the federal government’s vastly overbroad no-fly list.

...

How can Dr. Ibrahim be a terrorist and not be a threat at the same time? Welcome to the shadowy, self-contradictory world of American terror watch lists, which operate under a veil of secrecy so thick that it is virtually impossible to pierce it when mistakes are made. A 2007 audit found that more than half of the 71,000 names then on the no-fly list were wrongly included.

In a recently unredacted portion of his January ruling, Judge Alsup noted that in 2009 the government added Dr. Ibrahim back to its central terrorist-screening database under a “secret exception” to its own standard of proof. This would be laughable if it weren’t such a violation of basic rights. A democratic society premised on due process and open courts cannot tolerate such behavior.

It's TimesWorld, so it is hard to psychoanalyze this sort of flip-flop. My guess - they have somehow convinced themselves that the only people on the current no-fly list are creepy Christian white guys like the Planned Parenthood shooter or Dylann Roof of Charleston. If and when they realize that it is a list Donald Trump could endorse because the Americans on the list are (very probably) predominately Muslim, well, stand back as they stand up for a misunderstood minority. Oooh, I can feel their outrage just thinking about it...

 

 

Comments

[Threadkiller]

First!

[Peter]

Second! Amendment!

[Old Lurker]

Dem opposition just confirms my "what if" posted on a previous thread whereby the POTUS just puts all names on the list and forces each to Opt Out with permission only. No judge required.

[henry]

Cornyn is all in for more government and more power for himself. Period.

The Dems are for due process except when it helps liberty -- Cornyn's amendment didn't grow power fast enough for them.

[Threadkiller]

If I heard the Fed correctly, he said the FBI had an open investigation into the San Bernardino shooter prior to the attack.

[Old Lurker]

ef'm both Henry.

[Miss Marple 2]

FBI guy in California speaking at press conference.

Listed all the things they are following, have found, are investigating. For example, subjects did target practice at several ranges in LA and they have evidence of that.

He made a point of saying the FBI is a-political. One could take that either way, couldn't one?

[GMax]

TM not that hard. When evil Rethuglicans are in control of the No Fly List = Very bad to terrible. When the Fascist Liar Party is in charge, happy days are here again and there is nothing to fear but fear itself ( pay no attention to the IRS in that booth...

[Miss Marple 2]

Increased police presence in the area through the Christmas holidays, says the ATF guy.

[Old Lurker]

Here we go...

http://www.nysun.com/national/hillarys-reichsfluchsteueremerges-as-a-tax/89374/

[Old Lurker]

Hillary is so typical of all fascist liberals.

And stupid.

Her proposal at 3:16 will keep every buggy whip company here and ensure that no new idea will be birthed inside the US in corporate form ever again. Nobody has ever figured out how to fence in ideas, and in this day and age, locking in capital is nearly as difficult. My lawyer friends will make a fortune making a mockery of this, should it become law.

[Threadkiller]

Shemp's buddy Johnathan said "what we do know is Farooq spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on the weaponry."

But the Feds don't know how the two most expensive weapons got into Farooq's slimy paws.

Was the IED factory counted in the "thousands upon thousands" of dollars?
Where did Fox get their estimates?

Narrative building.

Ig, any idea how much the pistols and rifles would have cost?

[Threadkiller]

Fox Ticker states that there were no prior investigations on Farooq.

I must have heard wrong.

[NK]

Hillary adopting policies of Weimar and Nazi Germany....this is my shocked face.

[Miss Marple 2]

Not just the weapons, TK. Ammo, tactical gear, pipes, bomb components, explosives, and $65,000 in the bank.

[NK]

and brand new Go Pro cameras!

[lyle]

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/to-get-obamas-attention-isis-renames-self-global-warming/

Analysts praised the rhetorical move. “It’s nothing short of brilliant,” gushed New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman. “I have so many misapplied, overwrought metaphors I could apply here, but let’s just say this is Baghdadi taking the fight right to virtual Gettysburg with an exploding tuba. In one stroke, he’s forced the Democrats to choose between their ecological values and their reluctance to fight actual wars properly. On top of that, now that he’s renaming the group Global Warming, continued dithering by the administration will open it to charges of Global Warming denial, which is about as disgraceful an act a left-wing figure can admit, other than support for Israel.”

[glasater]

I was listening to that FBI SB update, MM and I sure didn't hear there had been an 'open case' on the Farooks prior to the massacre.

[Threadkiller]

That is what the list may be, MM. We have no idea what it actually is.

If the FBI guy says they do not know how the rifles came into the possession of the terror couple, how does the media claim thousands were spent?

Galvanized pipe and caps doesn't seem so expensive, they all know how to make clocks from scratch, the tactical gear(shirts and pants with many pockets) wasn't body armor, etc.

They didn't pay for babysitting and he worked so I'm not sure the case could be made that this is a budget busting arsenal.

[Sue]

Oops! Iran testing medium range ballistic missile tests. And what is the UN going to do? Stern warnings. That'll do it.

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

Are you uncomfortable with being placed on Red Witch's No Fly list?

[Sue]

In spite of too many testings in my prior post, this is their 2nd test. The UN is still trying to decide what to do over the October test, when Iran did it again in November.

[Threadkiller]

Thanks, glasater. I thought I heard that, but the fox ticker agreed with you.

[GMax]

Overseas airfare for two and an annual salary of $51K gross ( so netting maybe 45K annually after FICA and income taxes ) does not seem to jive with having $65K in the bank. But since they are obvious criminals the warrant for the bank records including every deposit other than the paycheck for the last several years should already be served up...

[Old Lurker]

Rick, was it not her own husband who famously commented back in the day that "We should be more like Germany"? We did not know he meant "...in the 1930's..."

As to being on her no-fly list, I confess I now finally understand why my old B-School pal invested a fortune in a deep ocean capable boat, and another fortune in his stash of gold coins and Iggy-like protection that live on it. Silly me.

[DublinDaveForever]

Sssssshhhh.Gun control is coming.Don't struggle.

Relax.

Ssssshhhhh.

[Comanche Voter]

Ol Dingy Harry is really sharp. Teddy Kennedy (a one time member of the no fly list) "isn't going to buy a gun and kill anybody".

Well that's true Harry, now that Teddy is dead and in his grave. You're pretty sharp to point that out.

But Teddy once drove an Oldsmobile and killed somebody. Her name was Mary Jo Kopechne, and she's dead in the water at Chappaquidick. In fact she's just as dead now as she would be if Ol Teddy had pulled out an AK-47 and blown her away.

[gentlejim]

TK,
You can get a basic pre-built AR for around $600. The cost goes up substantially when you start adding optics, special trigger groups, different sights, rail systems, slings, stocks, flash suppressors, etc. Ammo for the AR can be purchased in bulk for about $300/1000 rounds. Again, the price goes up substantially considering different specs and manufacturers. I haven't caught what to handguns were recovered, but a basic Glock 17(full size 9mm, 17 round magazine) will start around $550. 9mm bulk ammo can be purchased for around $200/1000 rounds. So, to answer is the "arsenal" bank busting? Absolutely not.

[Buckeye]

TK

I would estimate the 2 rifles and 2 pistols to be ~$4,000.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Ig, any idea how much the pistols and rifles would have cost?--

Can't remember all the makes, but figure ~$1,000 per AR 15 and ~$500 per pistola.

Plus he apparently may have bought the AR 15s second hand, so who knows?
Figure ~$200 per thousand rounds of 9mm and ~$300 for 223.

Very approximate numbers.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Never mind, already covered.

[lyle]

http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/fd-obama-addresses-congress-after-attack-on-pearl-harbor-t17285.html

[gentlejim]

Iggy,
Are we shopping at the same places for ammo?

[anonamom]

No mincing words here--
Let's Kill Then First

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/12/07/lets-kill-them-first-column/76887412/

In light of the recent attacks, we should remember our heritage and apply it today. Tough citizens don’t give government more power in a crisis. They know that government cannot always be there to protect them. Police and bureaucrats didn’t stop the hijackers of Flight 93 on September 11, the shoe-bomber later that December, the underwear bomber in 2009, or the Thalys train attacker this year. Neither did thicker cockpit doors or ineffective TSA screening. These acts of terrorism were stopped by ordinary citizens.

[daddy]

Via Breitbart, here's a pic of the 2 killers in 2014, when they arrive at Chicago O'Hare Airport.

Yet somehow it's our fault that we didn't try harder to make friends with this smiling, happy couple.

On the other hand, perhaps they're evident unfriendliness is explained by having to listen to nonstop CNN blared thru the O'Hare Terminal. Maybe that's what drove 'em ballistic. Makes a helluva lot more sense than CNN's Erin Burnette's suggestion: CNN Insanity: Erin Burnett Wonders If 'Postpartum Psychosis' Led to Slaughter

[daddy]

Via Breitbart, here's a pic of the 2 killers in 2014, when they arrive at Chicago O'Hare Airport.

Yet somehow it's our fault that we didn't try harder to make friends with this smiling, happy couple.

On the other hand, perhaps they're evident unfriendliness is explained by having to listen to nonstop CNN blared thru the O'Hare Terminal. Maybe that's what drove 'em ballistic. Makes a helluva lot more sense than CNN's Erin Burnette's suggestion: CNN Insanity: Erin Burnett Wonders If 'Postpartum Psychosis' Led to Slaughter

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Cornyn can die in a fire but he gets bonus points for dredging up the memory of fat Turdie (D - Barbed Cock of Satan) who causes the Searchlight Diddler to wheeze away apoplectically.

[Jack is Back! (On Alert!)]

Frederick and his school go to Radio City Music Hall on Monday for the Christmas Spectacular, 300 kids, 50 faculty, 10 Jitneys and 1 Southampton cop locked and loaded. First time in the history of the annual trip (paid for by a donor). In the New York metro area of which we are consdered a member due to the number of City folk who live out here part time, they share intelligence. Suggested it would be good idea we had a cop on board. He is one of Frederick's classmate's dad.

What I am hearing is they expect one this Christmas in New York. This is why there is all this weapons training and forming special forces in the Metro area. Chatter is that it is all home grown, not recent arrivals.

[Open, too.]

Remarkable agreement, you three. The market, it appears, is free.

[DublinDaveForever]

Mrs. Malick was kinda cute.

What a waste.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

I'm waiting for Looking Out For The Folks' angle on these low oil prices; should be comedy gold.

[Jack is Back! (On Alert!)]

daddy,

I can only hope that at sometime in his life as POTUS, post partum psychosis clicks in on his cerebellum and we get someone who gives a shit.

[Lost your humour along with your soul.]

A Dud; please see Occupied Territory @ 3:29 for the pro stuff.

[NK]

DD, she looks like a dude.... a homely dude.

[NK]

JiB-- there was a cop at the Metro North Railroad station this morning (maybe 2/3rd time I've seen one in 25 years), which implies there is info about something up. However, GCT was normal this AM. just the regular number of 9mm carrying Nat'l Guardmen.

[Threadkiller]

Spread that cost over the 7+years since he started buying them and it really loses the arsenal mystique.

[Get thee behind me.]

Heh, she looks murderous. Notice he's walking behind her.

[Rick Ballard]

NK,

It's rather unfair to apply 21st century appearance standards to someone living (dying?) in the 7th century.

[Dave (in MA)]

Comanche Voter | December 07, 2015 at 04:07 PM, yeah, but if she had lived, Kennedy would have brought comfort to her in her old age.

[DublinDaveForever]

"DD, she looks like a dude.... a homely dude"

Yeah,she ain't no Farrah fawcett-majors that's for sure.....still,I wouldn't throw her out of the bed for eating Za'atar.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

dumbassdave compares every female to his whore mother who was rejected by Planned Parenthood because of her complete lack of personal hygiene; hence the existence of dumbassdave.

[Sweet dreams are made of this.]

Heh, the imaginative young sot; as if she'd get anywhere near his bed with anything but a well you fill in the blank.

[Stephanie]

CNN Money reports that Ralph Peters, a Fox Business “strategic analyst” who called Obama a “total pussy,” and Outnumbered contributor Stacey Dash, who said the president doesn’t “give a shit” about terrorism, were reprimanded for using profanities on the air. Their punishment? A two-week suspension.

[DublinDaveForever]

"dumbassdave compares every female to his whore mother who was rejected by Planned Parenthood because of her complete lack of personal hygiene; hence the existence of dumbassdave"

My Mother wasn't rejected from Planned parenthood.

[Jack is Back! (On Alert!)]

Has it been verified biologically that she wasn't a dude?

[Thomas Collins]

I would have suspended them for being too polite, Stephanie.

[Marlene]

I'm interested in Granny Farook,if she is anything like Mom Tsarnaev,maybe she shoplifted the pipe bomb materials. Mom Tsarnaev's shoplifting spree was at Lord & Taylor,Granny would have to go the hardware store.
By the way,where is the baby? I believe one of the law enforcement officials said she was in the custody of child services.

[Same for you, Dud.]

'Total Wimp' and 'Give a Shirt' work well, too. C'mon, these are performers, they should know how to jest.

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

How much of a rip does Shemp get for being such a shrieking vag about nothing?

[Bori]

Somebody forgot the memo that there is nothing to fear about the refugee program.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/262316-isis-has-targeted-refugee-program-to-enter-us-chairman-says

[Miss Marple]

Juan is talking about GOP running on fear.

I don't think people are afraid, as much as angry and frustrated.

[buccaneer morgan]

and they wonder they are where they are,

http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2015/12/07/gop-rivals-trumps-wrong-on-muslim-profiling/

so there is a more sophisticated way of putting it, including radical elements in the matric

[Stephanie]

A note on Visas...

I did some snooping and it is easier to get into the country on a fiance visa than it is to get in on a married visa.

The whackjobs married in SA before they but chose to have her enter on a fiance visa not the more accurate married visa.

This took research and planning.

Their committing a terrorist act of some sort was planned wayyyy in advance.

[DebinNC]

Laurel Harper, mother of the OR community college mass murderer, amassed an arsenal of guns inside their tiny apartment, took her 26 yo psycho son to target practice, and post-massacre remains free as a bird. That's scarier than 2 dead CA jihadis imo, because no one's tracking murder enabling moms like Laurel Harper.

[Miss Marple]

Well, I put all crazy people in the same group, jihadi or not.

[narciso]

well that''s awkward:

http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2015/12/07/did-an-islamic-feminist-scholar-inspire-tashfeen-malik/

[narciso]

I think the merah incident, affects the view of him,

http://www.france24.com/en/20151207-sarkozy-feels-pressure-after-france-regional-election-failure-national-front

imagine if Michael Brown, had let a terrorist attack slip through,

[narciso]

Renzi will not be joining the coalition bombing raids btw,

http://www.thelocal.it/20151207/suspected-terrorist-planned-europe-attacks

[Threadkiller]

​

DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION

(New York, NY) December 7th, 2015, -- Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population...

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

[JMHanes]

A cautionary note from Claire Berlinski on Front National wins in France:

A point to stress, and stress with vigor: When people call the FN a “far-right” party, they’re not talking about “a party whose supporters would feel right at home taking tea with Margaret Thatcher.” Their platform — nationalizing banks, re-nationalizing of the transport and energy industries, raising protectionist trade barriers, handing out cash to low-paid workers — puts them well to the left of the Socialist Party, if we’re using the Anglo-American understanding of the terms “left” and “right.”

Her piece also includes a quick primer on the French electoral structure.

Good news from Venezuela, with sweeping opposition victories in legislative elections. The jury's still out on whether they will end up with an ostensible paradigm-shifting ⅔'s of the seats, which seems a stretch. Bad news is Maduro has till 2019 to change all that, and I don't think the socialists are going to go anywhere quietly.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Cristina Kirchner staffers are busy prying the Ms off the office keyboards...

[narciso]

they are culturally and socially populist, like grandpere, (including marechal's) allies in the Poujadist movement

https://pjmedia.com/michaelwalsh/2015/12/07/end-the-war-on-isis-now/#comments

well we're not having much of a skirmish, for the reasons outlined therein,

[narciso]

how does one say oops:

http://www.weaselzippers.us/244228-russia-has-the-finest-military-in-the-world-russia-accidentally-bombs-assad-military-headquarters-then-blames-america/

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Welp even Slick didn't blame blowing up the Chinese embassy in Belgrade on anybody knowing full well the Praetorian MFM would toss that nugget down the memory hole in short order. Case in point, when's the last time you've read about that?

[Jack is Back! (On Alert!)]

JMH,

Good points. Even in the UK there are no Euro parties as conservative in our definition as the Republican party in America. The FN is basically a nationialist concept and the Tories of the UK are more Scoop Jackson democrat than Reagan Republican no matter how they perceive and project Maggie.

They have had numerous times to take out the NHS but insteasd build it up and give it more money. Then look at their immigration policies.

[henry]

narciso, flying over Turkey, bombing your ally. Heck of a commercial for using real Garmins in the cockpit instead of Chinese knockoffs.

[narciso]

well it's a bit embarassing, if they didn't have the coordinates of the eastern most point in Syria,

[Cecil Turner]

The problem with the no fly list as NICS data is not that it's an infringement on liberty . . . it's statistically meaningless, less than a quarter of a percent of the population. Moreover, supporting gun rights for possible terrorists is silly, as is the fear you may be on the list.

It's objectionable because it's silly and a waste of time. Once again, Dems are playing politics, trying to find a focus group tested talking point that will get votes. And defending it on the basis of rights gives them exactly the sound bite they're looking for. Just ridiculing it--does anyone think it'd stop the most backward terrorist from getting weapons?--is the right answer.

[lyle]

Can link on my phone, but hie thee over to Powerline and read Hayward's latest: "The Laziest Liberal Argument."

[lyle]

--can't--

[narciso]

here you go lyle,

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/the-laziest-liberal-argument-the-side-of-history.php

[narciso]

the voltaire of the age,

http://www.steynonline.com/7343/partying-on-the-precipice

[Captain Hate on the iPad]

Yes, forcefully responding to the mewling quim statements of "why aren't you against the terrorist guys getting guns" with "it's nothing but a political look squirrel move which violates the Constitution and doesn't address the real problem, as anybody who isn't a complete dumbass would realize" might get the point across. Who do you think would say that?

[narciso]

this is not a one off for fraulein geheim

http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/07/ny-daily-news-writer-has-history-of-blaming-terror-victims/#ixzz3teWvNRm2

[narciso]

in other travismockasham news:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/freddie-gray-trial-day-4-medical-examiner-cross-examined-by-defense/

[Dusty Gorilla]

This whole No-Fly meme is just Gorilla Dust coordinated with the Times, meant merely to trap Republicans into "defending gun rights for terrorists".

It's a cheap blogger's trick to win an argument, not a grown-up presidential position.

[lyle]

Thanks, narc.

[FTL]

This link was posted by Miss Marple this morning a few threads ago.

Anyone who hasn't clicked over to read it yet is really missing out.

http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/point-deer-make-horse

This cannot be fixed with logical arguments. That said, there are alternative approaches that stop short of bullet box or the ropes & lampposts some so richly deserve. Jumping with both feet into any budding anti-P.C. backlash is one.

[narciso]

you're welcome, when I'm on my phone, I'm not confident of linking either, so I allude,

[jimmyk on iPhone]

JMH thanks for that info on FN. I wondered about how much they'd distanced themselves from Grandpere. They seem to have excised the anti-semitism, but still have a ways to go.

[Miss Marple 2]

So, everyone is clutching pearls and sputtering because Trump said "stop letting Muslims in until we know what's going on."

This may not play well with the Beltway set, but it plays very well in Peoria.

Two people in their 60's were on the bicycles at the YMCA, flanking my friend this evening. They bent her ear for half an hour about how we don't need any more Muslims in the country and how Trump is the only one who will say anything.

Yes, I know there are people in this country like that good Iranian immigrant doctor. And there are Muslims in the military, and plenty of Black Muslims.

The whole problem is that we don't know what's going on. And I go back to my worry the other day: there are too many cases of seemingly westernized Muslims who suddenly go off the rails. Besides the Ft. Hood shooter and the San Bernardino ones, we have that restaurateur in New York who cut off his wife's head, and the guy in Oklahoma who did the same to a coworker. Then we had the Beltway snipers, the numerous and unpublicized jihadi groups in upstate New York and other places, and however major ISIS cases we currently have ongoing.

We do not understand the mechanism for radicalization. Hypnotic suggestion from the mosques? Sleeper agents groomed from childhood? Demonic posssession? We just do not know what's happening.

[narciso]

well Berlusconi's coalition party (name escapes me honest) was the former fascist MSI, which got a facelift and turned more freemarket and pro Israel.

[narciso]

up tp a point

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(Italy)

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

There is no pathogen that breeds "radicalization" like it's a disease one catches via air or skin contact.
We didn't sit around wondering what bred all the commies or what pathway led young men to become infected with Nazism.
It's a choice so we killed them. If you kill enough of them you convince those who haven't joined it's not a good idea to make that choice and the ones who have already made the choice are hiding under a rock somewhere.
Simple enough.

[Miss Marple 2]

Ignatz,

So far all the jihadis are either dead or in jail, both here and in France.

I do not see that so far we are deterring them
much. While I think killing them in mass quantities would help a lot, I am still puzzled.

This goes all the way back to that "Not Without My Daughter" movie and the book it was based on. The doctor husband had been in the US 26 years. Had a family, a beautiful home, active in the community and well-liked by everyone. They went back to Iran and BOOM, he went over to the ayatollah and locked his wife up and made her wear the hajib in public.

So I want to know what causes this.

[Gentlejim]

MM2,
I'm going with the illness called Islam as the cause.