A Salt On Conventional Wisdom, or The Science Was Settled, Part Umpty-Bump

The AP reports that New York City will go full speed ahead on mandated sodium disclosure in restaurants. Let me note that I am a big fan of disclosure in the case of sodium for reasons I may remember to come back to. Here we go:

NYC gets OK to issue salt fines during appeal

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City plans to start enforcing a first-of-its-kind requirement for chain restaurants to use icons to warn patrons of salty foods after getting an appeals court's go-ahead Thursday to start issuing fines. But it's not the final word on whether the regulation will stand.

The novel rule took effect in December, and some eateries already have added the requisite salt-shaker-like icons to menu items that contain more salt than doctors recommend ingesting in an entire day.

But penalties have been in limbo as the National Restaurant Association fights the measure in court. That clash is ongoing, but an appeals court Thursday lifted a temporary hold on issuing the fines while the case plays out. Fines can be up to $600.

The city will start enforcing the rule June 6.

And we all know the motivation  - its for our own good! - but the AP reminds us:

Democratic Mayor Bill de Blasio applauded the appeals court's decision on what he called "a common-sense regulation that will help New Yorkers make better decisions and lead healthier lives." The city won the first round of the lawsuit in a trial court in February; the restaurant association appealed.

...

The average American consumes about 3,400 milligrams of sodium per day, while the recommended limit is 2,300 mg, or about a teaspoon. Experts say eating too much salt, over time, can increase the risk of high blood pressure and heart disease.

Yes, except that experts aren't quite saying that anymore. The Times covers a recent Lancet article. From the Times:

A Low-Salt Diet May Be Bad for the Heart

People with high blood pressure are often told to eat a low-sodium diet. But a diet that’s too low in sodium may actually increase the risk for cardiovascular disease, a review of studies has found.

...

Researchers reviewed four observational studies that included 133,118 people who were followed for an average of four years. The scientists took blood pressure readings, and estimated sodium consumption by urinalysis. The review is in Lancet.

Among 69,559 people without hypertension, consuming more than seven grams of sodium daily did not increase the risk for disease or death, but those who ate less than three grams had a 26 percent increased risk for death or for cardiovascular events like heart disease and stroke, compared with those who consumed four to five grams a day.

In people with high blood pressure, consuming more than seven grams a day increased the risk by 23 percent, but consuming less than three grams increased the risk by 34 percent, compared with those who ate four to five grams a day.

The lead author, Andrew Mente, an epidemiologist at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, said that eating less salt does indeed lower blood pressure.

“But low sodium intake may be harmful,” he added. “It’s important not to rely on blood pressure alone, but rather to look at actual clinical events — heart attack, stroke, mortality.”

Well, then. Now, one might wonder about the hypertensive low-sodium group. Presumably some significant fraction of that subset is in that category based on a personal decision or doctor's advice to adopt a low-sodium diet. Or, a lot of people are living under rocks. But if that sub-group is there by deliberate action rather than natural taste and preference, it is hard to argue they represent some kind of random sample for which normal statistical controls will apply. So maybe that sub-group was already on a bad path and entirely likely to have a higher percentage of dire outcomes.

Presumably the authors addressed this to the satisfaction of the Lancet editors, and on a rainy day in November I might take the time to figure out how. But this is not that day. This day, we play!

OH, YEAH: A close acquaintance has to restrict her sodium or she loses her hearing. Not good! But this is a small proportion of the population.  Although I am all in favor of disclosure, it would be even better if the reasons for the mandated disclosure overlapped with reality.

 

Comments

[Skoot]

I dump loads of salt on everything. I have the blood pressure of a 13 year old girl according to my doctor.

[henry]

The science is settled!!!! Salt and soda are bigger threats than AGW!!! (Well that is likely true, although a picture of a kitten is more dangerous than either of those).

[henry]

Plus the Meniere's thing is no fun with or without salt.

[buccaneer morgan]

What ever happened to moderation, the golden mean, I know paging years.

[Centralcal on iPad]

Narc is right - all things in moderation. I like salt and food prepared without it is bland.

[Beasts of England]

How could you drink tequila without salt? And limes, I guess...

And on a related note, Darius Rucker to perform the National Anthem at Indy tomorrow. Woot!! er, uh, Hoot!!

[Buford Gooch]

I try to get at least 15 grams per day of salt. That way, if I'm ever required to cut my salt intake in half, I will still get plenty.

[DrJ]

I like salt and food prepared without it is bland.

We don't use salt, and instead use red pepper. It works pretty well.

[JMHanes]

"The novel rule took effect in December, and some eateries already have added the requisite salt-shaker-like icons to menu items that contain more salt than doctors recommend ingesting in an entire day."

Novel, indeed! So how many specially trained detectives will be required to round up (alleged) malefactors? Are said salt sleuths going to be haunting restaurants like undercover reviewers, or do they have dish on demand powers for sampling? If chefs share their secret sauces with the NYPD, will they leak?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

If I'm reading that correctly, those who consume the FDA's recommended daily allowance, whether hypertensive or not, face an increased risk.
So, if the new research is accurate those who should be fined are DeBlasio and company who are insisting people consume an unsafe level of salt and the thing that should be carrying a warning sticker is the warning sticker.

[Beasts of England]

Assault salt?

[Centralcal on iPad]

" New York City plans to start enforcing a first-of-its-kind requirement for chain restaurants to use icons to warn patrons of salty foods after getting an appeals court's go-ahead Thursday to start issuing fines."

Is it truly for "chain restaurants" only? Seems discriminatory.

[buccaneer morgan]

Most anything coming out of mayor dagett, is in the words of Edwin starr, harmful to women, children and small animals.

[Gentlejim]

Does that study say that a federal guideline is harmful? Unpossible...
Skoot's blood identifies as a female teen?

[Miss Marple 2]

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/281599-watch-army-rangers-release-song-from-afghanistan-in-honor-of-memorial-day

[Truthbetold5]

Trump Courting Bernie Voters at the Expense of His Principles – Wait, Never Mind

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/05/trump-courting-bernie-voters-at-the-expense-of-his-principles--wait-never-mind

[RattlerGator]

That Memorial Day video? Powerful.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

USA Today beclowns itself with complete lie for a headline;
Donald Trump tells Californians there is no drought.
He said no such thing. He correctly pointed out much of our water problems come from insanely idiotic environmental policies like favoring the Delta smelt over human beings.
A few hundred more votes for Trump.

[Miss Marple 2]

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/281601-trump-wants-big-sports-stadium-for-cleveland-acceptance

It's ok with me, as long as there aren't any fake columns!!

[buccaneer morgan]

Well those democrats, who can't stand red queen, but probably supported her in 2008.

[Skoot]

"Skoot's blood identifies as a female teen?"

Well, it might as well. I'm surrounded by them, I tell ya, surrounded!

By the way, we're all watching NCAA softball super regionals all weekend. LSU over JMU 2-0 right now.

[Comanche Voter]

Since when did a DiBlasio mandate overlap with reality?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Or legality.

[Man Tran]

buc,

Civil War: we finally saw it. Meh. It seemed like they conjured the script backwards. 'Let's have the good guys fight the good guys! OK, what lame contrivance can we come up with to make that plausible?'

It's not that different than the nearly every episode of Arrow where Queen or one of the team agonizes over killing the bad guy or sending him to a rehab colony.

[Jack is Back!]

What's on your "barbie"? Tonight we have BBQ chicken, Veggie skewers and a nice Strawberry-Rhubarb Crisp made with Polenta. Got that receipe out of today's WSJ and it really seemed to be the right thing to go with Sip 'n Soda Vanilla Ice Cream (hand packed, natch).

Just watched Frederick complete the first round of "knocking-in" his new cricket bat. Now he is off on his bike down to Stevenson's to see what is new in Transformers.

Its a zoo here and Cooper's Beach (rated No. 8 in the country) is packed to the gills. Mostly out of towners paying $40 a day to park. I don't use that beach that much and don't have to pay as long as I pay my taxes:) but that's a lot of moolah just to enjoy some sand and surf. We prefer Little Plains since its a quick bike ride and not as crowded because of limited parking.

Enjoy your weekend - you deserve it.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Marvel lost me when their aircraft carrier rose up out of the sea on four giant ceiling fans.
A flying airport on a ship for a bunch of flying airplanes? Possibly the dumbest idea ever.
What next a boat dock with an inboard V-12 and water skis or a five car garage with a Hemi and wheels?

[Porchlight]

They can have my assalt rifle when they pry it out of my cold dead hands.

[Porchlight]

No cooking here....we are going to a block party! Hosted by a friend who is a rare Austin righty. I really dislike celebrating patriotic holidays with lefties. Although most of the guests will probably fall into that category.

[Miss Marple 2]

I am going to make potato salad if my daughter gets back from the grocery. She was going to bring the potatoes, but first she has to stop by the organic grocery to get some stuff, so we will probably eat at 9PM.

Or else the potato salad will be made today and consumed tomorrow.

[jetty]

These days, whatever it is that liberals whine about, I believe the exact opposite. So pass the salt!

[Marlene]

Good afternoon from the sunny and warm North Woods. I'm sitting on the screened-in porch,the skeeters are brutal. It is so quiet here,very soothing for the soul. Looks like TCM has a great selection for the week-end. "The Bridge on the River Kwai" is on at 8.

[Porchlight]

Quick trick to chill potatoes, MM - boil, then cut in slabs. Lay them out on a cookie sheet and place in freezer or fridge for a few minutes. If you have the room - I usually don't. ;)

[buccaneer morgan]

Well it is part of the canon, but it is an ungainly contraption. Interesting detail at one point they thought that scarlet wouldn't come along, but they realize that would have been awkward.

[Jack is Back!]

Mean't to mention that one of the books I am reading is "The Reader on the 6:27", by Jean-Paul Didierlaurent. Hard to find but you can get at Amazon out of the UK or be lucky and get a copy from a bookseller here. Just translated from the french. Terrific little book, funny with a touch of everyday disappointment and clever development. Won't spoil it but its about a guy who works in a book pulping mill and saves random pages of books to read aloud to fellow pax on his morning train commute.

Then a surprise find!

http://www.amazon.com/Reader-6-27-Jean-Paul-Didierlaurent/dp/1447276469/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464460683&sr=1-1&keywords=the+reader+on+the+6+27

[Marlene]

Instapundit posted this thread,fyi.

[Miss Marple 2]

Porchlight,

THANK YOU! I don't know why I didn't think of the freezer, and I do have room!

[Porchlight]

You're welcome! Might want to use wax paper or the equivalent just in case they stick.

[DrJ]

TK still is gone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH01FhqMdc8

[rich@gmu]

>>>Interesting detail at one point they thought that scarlet wouldn't come along, but they realize that would have been awkward.

Posted by: buccaneer morgan | May 28, 2016 at 02:38 PM <<<

Very clever.

the general idea of the helicarrier goes back to the 60's in the Marvel Universe. yikes some that didn't like "Civil War" ...

[Lurker Susie]

Marlene,

Scented dryer sheets keep the skeeters away. I put one in my pocket when I garden. It works!

[lyle]

65F and clear in Sun Valley. Last night was grilled whole beef tenderloin with shiitake mushroom sauce and a phenomenal '08 Mount Eden Cabernet. Did I mention the "phenomenal" part? Forecast is warming each day into next week when we head back on Wed. Happy MD to everyone who loves this great nation. Leftists can suck it.

[Man Tran]

rich,

It's just the silliness of having an infinite number of bad guys that you cheer when they get blasted, but here we are having the good guys beating each other to a pulp. Sounds like something little dingle Berry would pontificate about in a Memorial weekend ceremony.

[lyle]

Only sad part is hiking without our Gracie, our Golden Retriever, for the first time in eleven years. She LOVED hiking and getting in as much water as she could find. Miss her desperately.

[Centralcal on iPad]

LOL, DrJ.

[Charlie Martin]

A salt rifle

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00STSZ77G/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ll1&tag=insta0c-20&linkId=6fa729a00bc9610ada735a4552d9bc74

Strictly a shotgun, but whatever.

[The Gipper Lives]

You know what else is really bad for your health?

The Nanny State.

[Threadkiller]

Hahaha!!!

Funny stuff!!

I guess I better dig up the birther memoirs.

[rich@gmu]

>>>Sounds like something little dingle Berry would pontificate about in a Memorial weekend ceremony.

Posted by: Man Tran | May 28, 2016 at 03:08 PM<<<

Double yikes. de gustibus non disputandum est, I guess.

[rich@gmu]

... and only in 2016 would a salt shaker half full of salt be consider more dangerous than a salt shaker half full of cocaine.

Maybe Mayor Bane could spend some time making sure his natural constituency doesn't piss and shit in the streets.

[rich@gmu]

600 dollar fines for not having the right salt shaker symbol on the menu and display boards ... tax revenue by other means.

[rich@gmu]

I'm thinking I could load up my car with cigarettes and bags of salt and make a mint in NYC ... but would have to avoid the revenuers.

[DrJ]

TK is gone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbevg8lxiE0

[Captain Hate]

Add a few RINO amnesty shills while they're at it. The family should receive a tribute at the RNC convention by Trump as a sign that nodding and winking at illegals is officially over:

http://www.weaselzippers.us/273948-kate-steinles-family-sues-feds-san-francisco-for-wrongful-death/

[Threadkiller]

Nope. I'm back.

Tried to lurk, but you couldn't quit me.

Don't worry, some skirts will be along shortly for you to hide behind.

[Threadkiller]

http://whistleblowerlegal.com/nih-grant-fraud.html

[Neo]

For the units-challenged among us ...

Latest Science:
Among 69,559 people without hypertension, consuming more than 7,000 milligrams of sodium daily did not increase the risk for disease or death, but those who ate less than 3,000 milligrams had a 26 percent increased risk for death or for cardiovascular events like heart disease and stroke, compared with those who consumed 4,000 milligrams to 5,000 milligrams a day.

de Blasio Science:
The average American consumes about 3,400 milligrams of sodium per day, while the recommended limit is 2,300 mg, or about a teaspoon. Experts say eating too much salt, over time, can increase the risk of high bloodpressure and heart disease.

Simple take-away ... Democratic Mayor Bill de Blasio is trying to kill us (and they said Republicans were saying 'drop dead') ... and exactly who are these "Experts" ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?ex=1349668800&en=67642ef2330f51af&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&_r=0

[rich@gmu]

oh great ... instead of pissing and shitting on Houston St. we're going to piss and shit in the comments section.

[Threadkiller]

Sometimes it is what it is, rich.

I'm trying to lay back and lurk. I enjoy what most everyone here writes, and I find the links more useful than I site like Drudge.

The host has always been fair to all of us.

Maybe, just maybe, I can sit back and not be mentioned? The request was for me to quit wrecking the joy of everyone else. So why am I still being talked about?

Elementary school.

[Threadkiller]

...than a site...

[buccaneer morgan]

Whelp the same thing happened in the previous two films, except there was no infinity stone.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Relinking Wretchards Hiroshima as Gun Control if only for the interesting discussion in the comments of Japan's own nuclear weapons program before and during WWII.

[rich@gmu]

some mood music ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qkrsodwJGY

[rich@gmu]

>>>Whelp the same thing happened in the previous two films, except there was no infinity stone.<<<

that the good guys split and started fighting ... interesting point.

[rich@gmu]

and the outro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBZqmL8ehg

Don't think cuz I understand
I care
Don't think cuz I'm talkin'
We're friends

[Threadkiller]

That's the general mood.

[Janet S.]

TK still is gone?

What is the point of that post?

[Veeshir]

Although I am all in favor of disclosure, it would be even better if the reasons for the mandated disclosure overlapped with reality.

So you're anti-SCIENCE!?

Once someone invokes SCIENCE!, you have to accept what they say uncritically.

Science, not so much.

[buccaneer morgan]

The mind stone should be called the of stone, loki has it, enables his escape, is the heart of ultron.

[John A]

If you have hypertension, looking at salt intake is the first approach. But it does not necessarily follow that salt/sodium causes hypertension.

In 2014 the CDC issued a report that went along with the 2300mg max, but noted that those in the studies who ingested 3400mg or even more [and were not already hypertensive] showed "no adverse effects."

[Jack is Back!]

It takes a Catholic priest from Notre Dame to set the record straight on why we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the least bad alternative.

https://www.facebook.com/prageru

Well done, father.

[Marlene]

Too funny,hubby took the "Hint of salt" Triscuits out of the cupboard and said,what are these?

[maryrose]

JIB
How is your knee doing?
Yes the reason for Hiroshima was to end the war as quickly as possible.
That we can be friends today shows how we have evolved over the decades.

[maryrose]

Marlene
What happened to the birds in the nest?

[James D.]

I did enjoy Civil War, but the problem I had with it is that (despite the often-expressed intent of the filmmakers) it doesn't give both sides equal arguments.

There IS a valid argument for the idea that individuals who are basically walking WMDs do need to be regulated in some way. But the script doesn't really make that argument.

[Momto2]

MM - I always like the potato salad better the 2nd day.

We're grilling salmon from Lummi Island Wild - it's the best I've found. I'm roasting veggies - little potatoes, carrots, brussels sprouts, and asparagus. Our new favorite dessert is fresh strawberries dipped in sour cream and then dipped in brown sugar - doesn't sound that great but it is. I just wash and dry the berries and each person has their own 2 little dishes with sour cream and b. sugar. Try it!

[James D.]

I'd really like a GOP leader (here is where someone like Ryan, or Mitt, or ideally GW and W Bush could step up and earn their place) to explain to our current President that in face we HAVE had a moral evolution.

It was the evolution to the idea of individual liberty, individual dignity, and power coming from the consent of the governed, and our Founding Fathers figured it out more than two centuries ago - and Obama and his allies are trying their best to destroy those ideas today.

[new lurker]

My very fav dessert, also, Momto2. Have had it for years.

[Marlene]

maryrose,the nest that hubby moved to the bird house still has two eggs in it,but we discovered another nest under the eaves and it seems like an active nest that mama and papa are flitting around.

[Jack is Back!]

maryrose,

Walking unaided most of the time but still use my walking poles when doing longer stretches. Working with my Ortho on strategy for getting the replacement done. Need to make sure no residual infection or course for it to follow during Op. Also having MRI of lower back L1, L2 region. Looks like it could be the cause of all my feet issues and not the knee swelling.

Swimming every day and tomorrow or Monday I live my promise and walk the beagles on the beach. Expect to be playing golf and tennis in the next year. Takes time and lots of PT even after the replacement.

Thanks for asking.

How about that Spieth guy starting to peak for the US Open? And Oakmount is a putter's course. Fastest greens on the rota except when they let Shinnecock bake out.

[Momto2]

JIB - that is a great video - (as are most at Prager U.) - I wish I hadn't started reading the comments.

[Momto2]

JIB - Walking the beagles on the beach - what a wonderful milestone! I know you've been thinking of this for months! Hooray!!!

Birds are weird Marlene. I've had a bluebird house for 10 years and every summer I've had 3 or 4 broods in it. This year the pair of bluebirds have become fascinated with their reflection in my bay window. In spite of my covering portions of the window with paper - they continue to spend most of their waking hours flitting and attacking their own reflections. The "nest" only consists of some pine straw and a few sprigs of grass - they don't have time to do more. So no eggs and here it is almost June.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

I sure hope Speith has the mental toughness to put the Augusta debacle behind him.
One more Sunday meltdown in a major could be devastating.
He does seem pretty stern in that dept, but then his Masters meltdown stunned me in the first place.

[Marlene]

Momto2,the bird nests are amazing. When hubby moved the nest from the Jeep tire,he said the mud was as strong as super glue.
There are baby beavers in the stream and they are adorable. Of course,we've named them the Cleavers. : )

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Er, Spieth...

[maryrose]

Momto2
I am trying that strawberry dessert this weekend. Thank you.

[maryrose]

Marlene it sounds heavenly!
Last weekend we were near Chippewa Lake where there is a bald eagle's nest
As we got out of the car my son spotted the eagle in full flight.
He is always the most observant one.
It was feeding time for the young ones in this huge nest.

[MaryD]

maryrose and momto2: if you still have your old little fondue dishes for sauces, they are ideal for the brown sugar and sour cream.

[MaryD]

OOPS! I just let on how old I am!

[Manuel Transmission]

rich,

In case you thought I was dissing you, my point was that the movie was dangerously close to something pResident would ruin a Memorial Day presentation conflating good/evil with. (I mistakenly assume regulars who can mostly decipher narciso can take a few cryptic zingers from me.) :)

[Momto2]

maryrose I hope you like it! My introduction was in an upscale restaurant and the presentation can make it special. But it also tastes great on a paper plate with a dollop of s. cream and a little pile of b. sugar!

[clarice]

It's lovely on Oahu..Lots of swimming, boating, shopping j for the Wolverine's 11th birthday. Visiting all the farm market stands. Took the gang out for dinner at Nobu's in Honolulu last night. Going to have drinks with another barb and hubby tonight. Don't know what's for dinner here tonight, but tomorrow we get poke while the kids get pizza to celebrate. (Don't know how to put the accent mark on the e in poke--but it's Hawaiian ceviche and I could live on it and tropical fruit. Best thing I ate at the market today--a fresh litchi popsicle. No one is desecrating the war memorials here.
Also visited Iolani where the wolverine will be starting 6th grade in late August..those missionaries left a lot of valuable property to fund incredible schools. (The boy next door who's super nice and the Wolverine's age goes to Punahou ,and I expect rival flags to go up alongside the houses' boundaries..Perhaps the UN peacekeepers will pls stay away and let the kids work it out without being and killed with the blue helmets' cholera.)

Smooches to all.

[Momto2]

MaryD - My "lover of all things retro" daughter asked for and received a fondue set for Christmas one year. I have no idea what happened to my original one but I'm certainly old enough to have owned one. That's a good idea about the dishes!

[Gentlejim]

Skoot,
I have the same thing at my house. 👍🏻

[Beasts of England]

Nothing on the 'barbie' nor any drinks recipes today, sorry. :(

The marina where I purchase thousands of dollars of gas every season is having a legit pig pit, which will be ready at 6:30. Yummy, yummy!

After that, we're cruising fifteen miles upriver to Scottsboro (yes, that Scottsboro) where the nephew's band is playing at a waterside restaurant bar. Since Memorial Day is the marine police equivalent of New Year's Eve - and I haven't registered my boat yet... - I'll have to stay damned near sober.

Beasts' theorem of relative sobriety applies, natch. lol

[rich@gmu]

>>>In case you thought I was dissing you, my point was that the movie was dangerously close to something pResident would ruin a Memorial Day presentation conflating good/evil with. (I mistakenly assume regulars who can mostly decipher narciso can take a few cryptic zingers from me.) :)

Posted by: Manuel Transmission | May 28, 2016 at 05:55 PM<<<

yikes and double yikes. I missed it entirely.

[Lurker Susie]

Whiskey, Prostitutes, Cash: ‘Fat Leonard’ Scandal Rocks U.S. Navy

https://shar.es/1dDkOb

Sex and drugs enticed high level Navy officers to divulge secrets to a Malaysian businessman.

[Neshobanakni]

I love salt, and I have the heart of a teenager. I keep it under my bed.

[Kaiser Derden]

sodium by itself is harmful ... what we call salt today is not what natural salt is ...

[Captain Hate]

maryrose, there was a lot more variety in the waterfowl migrating through the Shaker lakes this spring; in addition to the usual buffleheads there were loons, ruddys and canvasbacks plus probably a few I missed. There are a few resident Cooper hawks in addition to scads of Redtails. We saw a bald eagle back when we had Maggie because we heard a couple hawks trying to drive it away. Lots of goldfinches and a few Baltimore Orioles.

We don't get many bluebirds; there are some but the trashy sparrows try to take over their nesting boxes. Somebody told me earlier when I was walking Teddy that the park where Acacia country club used to be has some.

[anonamom]

Salt is absolutely NOT AN ISSUE for most white people.MAY be for black people.

Geez---