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June 10, 2016

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narciso

and the mandela funeral that turned into an occasion for selfies,

Theo

JamesD --

It is a common mistake when thinking about elections to believe that if only the losing candidate had done things that would have ramped up the commentator's personal excitement for the candidate up to 11 (or 12), that candidate would have won. This is just poor analysis.

I suspect that NO regular JOMer voted for Obama in 2012. (Please correct me if I am incorrect.) I suspect (not quite as strongly but still fairly confidently) that NOT ONE SINGLE JOMer did not vote for Romney in 2012 AND WOULD HAVE DONE SO if Romney did the things suggested by JamesD in his 8:59 post.

If these things are true, than what we are left with is people here -- like JamesD -- speculating about what OTHER PEOPLE would have done had Romney acted differently. Given that the "acted differently" coincides with "please JamesD more" I think that this speculation is highly suspect.

But again, I challenge anyone to describe the type of voter who either failed to vote and would have voted for Romney had he done as James suggests (and note that you need to find 5 MILLION such people) or actually voted for Obama and would have voted for Romney had James been his campaign manager (you only need two and a half million of these).

Obviously I cannot know what would have happened in a counterfactual universe any more than anyone else. But I think it is difficult to imagine millions of Obama voters who would have switched to Romney had he smacked Candy Crowley across the face during the debate or whatever.

You may regret it now, but I am reasonably certain that virtually everyone here voted for Romney in 2012. Your disappointment with him is not why he lost. Your disappointment with him is because he was not your dream candidate.

narciso

lerner believes in non ethnocentric judaism, I guess like Jim Wallis and Christianity,

Sue

I was also thinking of MLK's wife's funeral.

Sue

Their,

I think it has more to do with how Romney went after his republican rivals and didn't go after Obama. And has been fairly quiet about Obama but has gone after Trump.

Free James D!

Um..."defend your wife when your opponents mock her Illness" and "don't let the opponent totally define you without any effort to define yourself first" are not things a "dream candidate" would do.

They are things you would expect any competent, intelligently-advised candidate to try and do.


narciso

I must have blocked it out, so much grandstanding, so little time,

http://www.weeklystandard.com/corettas-funeral-merkel-and-more./article/7883

Sue

Sorry, Their is Theo. Autocorrect strikes again.

Theo

Sue --

I understand people saying "gee Mitt, why were you such a nice guy to Obama and so hard on Trump?" A fair question.

But if it goes beyond that to argue, as some apparently do, that if Mitt had been as harsh with Obama as he has been towards Trump, he would have won in 2012, well, I think it is a very difficult argument to make if you look at who voted and who didn't.

Theo

That's okay Sue. I am fluent in both typo AND autocorrect.

Porchlight

Sue, good point about funerals.

LOL, Joolie.

Sue

Romney had Obama on the ropes at the first debate. Romney was up in the polls. He backed off and let Obama back in the fight. That is why he is criticized.

Sue

Theo,

I am typing with one finger on an iPhone. That it doesn't happen more often is what amazes me.

Porchlight

I remember it well. After that debate he was genuinely up in the polls. But then he wussed out.

Theo

My recollection is different Sue. I think Obama phoned it in in the first debate and Romney therefore looked good. Obama upped his game in the later debates. I do not think that Romney "backed off" or "let" Obama do anything. Obama realized he had flubbed the first debate and worked harder for the later ones and that, and not some mistake on Romney's part is what made the difference.

Of course, that is just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own.

Rocco

Narciso, more on the Venceremos Brigade and the Weather Underground.

http://www.usasurvival.org/home/docs/Grathwohl_%20June-28.pdf

Sue

In any event, Romney needs to STFU. ::grin::

narciso

so the strange has no boundaries, (h/t robert mccain) maverick's cousin,

http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/lgbt/2016/1/20/which-chicago-billionaire-is-giving-big-for-transgender-stud.html

Porchlight

Both views are true. Obama was unprepared for the first debate, and Mitt was legitimately on offense. In the next debate the roles switched. Mitt didn't know what to do when Crowley stepped in. He fumbled.

Porchlight

And in Mitt's favor, Crowley stepping in like that was unprecedented. It would have been hard to prepare for that.

Momto2

Exactly Sue - whether he could have beaten O or not we'll never know - but the LEAST he can do now is not keep mouthing off about our R. candidate which only helps HC.

Threadkiller

But again, I challenge anyone to describe the type of voter who either failed to vote and would have voted for Romney... 

Seems like you know the inside baseball answer, Theo.

How about you spell out the profile of the typical #NeverRomney person?

Were they racists? Birthers? Nativists? Misogynists? Etc?

What made them decide it was to tough to choose between good and evil in 2012?

Did NRO prompt them?

Do tell.

Lurker Susie

As a business man you are always prepared for the next shoe to drop.
Romney was scripted. Go off script and he didn't know what to do. Republicans think the dirty dealing goes on behind closed doors.
Obama and Biden lie with such ease that Romney and Ryan just let it go.
It's not who we are to call others liars or even suggest they are.
Trump is not holding back. He's trying to beat using their playbook.
Romney wishes he has the cajones of Trump

boris

"Your disappointment with him is not why he lost. Your disappointment with him is because he was not your dream candidate"

That doesn't even make sense Theo.

Even if you managed to coherently write whatever was in your head at the time it would have been stupid because you are clueless and don't squat about what's in anybody's head. Even your own. Obviously.

narciso

no that's not the way they think, they think that somehow being called a dog turturing employee's wife killing tax dodger, was some noble calling, but don't worry they would try again, except this was the swimmer's game plan, 18 years before,

narciso

its like they are reading from the same playbook, on either side of the pond,


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/

Lurker Susie

How I feel


Tammy Bruce
Tammy Bruce – Verified account ‏@HeyTammyBruce

Romney is now sounding like Hillary. Just in a better pantsuit. Bizarre meltdown after 8yrs of silence during Obama https://twitter.com/politico/status/741439550896148480

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--NOW I see he DOES have it and then some - he just chooses to use it against a Republican (Trump) instead of Democrat Obama.--

Exactly. That is the sign of a manipulated, whipped, embarrassed loser.
It's the lily livered husband who walks on egg shells in public to avoid embarrassment and then screams at his wife and kids at home.
Mittens' theme song.

narciso

Name the party,


In November 2015 she proposed that the UK's remaining coal-fired power stations would be shut by 2025 with their use restricted by 2023. "We need to build a new energy infrastructure, fit for the 21st century."[19] In November 2015 a leaked letter showed that the government was not on course to deliver its Mandatory renewable energy target, leading to accusations from The Ecologist that Rudd had knowingly misled Parliament.[20]


narciso

they had the largest landslide in recent history, yet they still offer sacrifices to the sky dragon,
for only the last 50 years, has the Uk been entangled in the Common Market, but now it will be Ragnarok,

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--My recollection is different Sue.--

Your recollection is wrong.
In the foreign policy debate Romney virtually laid down and asked Obama to give him a chance to think of mother Kenya.

--Obviously I cannot know what would have happened in a counterfactual universe any more than anyone else.--

If you would just start out your posts with that line you could save all sorts of bandwidth and effort.

Kat

"Your disappointment with him is not why he lost. Your disappointment with him is because he was not your dream candidate"

So, if Trump loses, I will be disappointed only because he is not my dream candidate? (he isn't).
I think I need to more wine to get to the bottom of this.....

Lurker Susie

Conservative

Thomas Collins

I just don't believe Romney isn't running. I think his goal is to undercut Trump and convince the GOP to open up the convention, at which point Romney, for the good of the GOP and the country, will accept the nomination.

narciso

so I acknowledged ali's talent, but there is an irony, of them touting as a peacemaker whose job was pounding people into unconsciousness, or maybe it's just me,

it's different with the military or the police, they have taken a vow to protect and defend,

Thomas Collins

Controlled environment, narciso. Boxing doesn't cause people to be violent. For me, it's quite consistent for a boxer to be a force for peace. To what extent Ali was a force for peace, I'll leave to those who studied his activities more than I did.

To me, the greatest peace move by an American was President Polk working out the Oregon Territory deal with the Brits.

narciso

yes, polk had bigger fish to fry, there's a lesson in there somewhere I think,

clarice

Romney's behavior is that of a petulant loser. He didn't have a clue about how the media or oppo works. Now he's seeing what someone with a less pampered background can do in the same situation.

remember how he was completely flummoxed by the ridiculous "binders full of women" charge? Crowley's stepping on the scale in the debate? I needn't elaborate I'm sure,

Kat

TC,

You may be right.I believe that the green eyed monster has taken over Romney's soul and made him lose his mind.

Ryan and Romney consoled themselves that they lost in a honorable way and their opponent was, after all, worthy (they did not lose jobs or money over Obama's policies, so no skin of their nose). And now some boorish non-politician from Brooklyn (new money - construction! -his wife was a model! - quelle horreur!), is going to get a nomination!

This aggression cannot stand!

Bring me my sal volatile, I am going to faint.

Thomas Collins

Polk's campaign bluster, 54 40 or fight, yielded to a compromise when Polk actually had the POTUS responsibilities. If Trump wins, he'll need to compromise on his wall and ousting all illegals. I hope he'll be as savvy as Polk.

narciso

now you take this idiot,

http://rightwingnews.com/crime/stanford-rapist-accused-sending-picture-victims-breasts-friends/

where to begin, well he's probably a spoiled punk,

Frau Lehrerin a.D.

All too clear, Clarice. Der Spiegel had a field day with the binders full of women* even though it did not mean a thing to them.

*sounds like something Billy Jeff ordered, doesn't it?

Kat

Right on, clarice

narciso

well polk was a jacksonian, but he saw that the biggest prize lay south not north, although some quibble, that the mexican war, was a pyrrhic victory that led to the civil war, in a similar way, that the gulf war, led to the war on terror, but that wasn't the calculations at the beginning,

Miss Marple 2

Ha, Kat! EXACTLY!

And for Theo's benefit, Romney was my preferred candidate, both in 2008 and 2012.

That is why I am so angry. I was duped by a fake reputation.

Who would have thought that the guy who figured out the most economical way to order pizza for Olympic volunteers would blow through so much money and lose? Who would have thought that he would be duped by Candy Crowley, of all people?

All hat, no cattle.

Miss Marple 2

Heading to bed. I have to go to an outdoor art show tomorrow, and it is going to be hot and humid. UGH.

Good night, everyone!

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Wayne Gretzky on Gordie Howe;

"Unfortunately we lost the greatest hockey player ever today, but more importantly the nicest man I have ever met."

Classy.

narciso

even in prison, he is unbowed,


http://babalublog.com/2016/06/10/imprisoned-dissident-leader-in-venezuela-rejects-spains-attempt-to-save-cubas-puppet-dictator-in-caracas/

Miss Marple 2

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/peoples-history-museum-in-manchester-fined-864931#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Fined for not displaying the EU flag.

Gee, wonder how this referendum will go.

Miss Marple 2

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636143/Greediest-snouts-EU-trough-Not-sure-vote-Read-stinking-wealth-hypocrisy-Brussels-fat-cats-Kinnocks-help-decide.html

The EU elites sure live a fancy life.

Miss Marple 2

Frank Luntz poll and article on Brexit:

http://time.com/4364697/brexit-frank-luntz-poll/?xid=tcoshare

Miss Marple 2

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/dont-let-david-cameron-and-george-osborne-fool-you-heres-what-my/

Nigel Farage gives his version of Britain after Brexit.

pagar a bacon, country ham and sausage supporter

"Yahoo Finance
Hillary Clinton starts to rake in the cash"

Why would anyone give money to a person under investigation by the FBI?

Miss Marple 2

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/10/im-voting-for-donald-trump-so-i-went-to-see-him-speak-protesters-broke-my-nose/?platform=hootsuite

I have no idea how this got published in the Washington Post, but this is a good account of what happened to a guy who went to see Donald Trump in San Jose.

Interestingly, he is a gay, Hispanic Trump supporter.

henry

Pagar, same reason protection payments to the Cosa Nostra never stop.

Miss Marple 2

Putting this here for daddy when he shows up:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/11/lost-city-medieval-discovered-hidden-beneath-cambodian-jungle?CMP=share_btn_tw

pagar a bacon, country ham and sausage supporter

At this rate, linguists might as well go ahead and designate “Clinton aide” a synonym for criminal."

I thought the good ones already had.

http://conservativetribune.com/clinton-aide-makes-announcement/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=THENewVoice&utm_campaign=manualpost

pagar a bacon, country ham and sausage supporter

http://realfactsmedia.com/17-signs-sharia-law-taking-over-europe/

Just sightly ahead of what is happening in the USA, IMO.

Miss Marple 2

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/what-if-ptsd-is-more-physical-than-psychological.html

This is an interesting and important article about the effects of blasts on the brain, and how this looks to be the real cause of PTSD.

Buckeye

MM,read the article about the EU fat cats. Not really different inside the beltway.

Robin Surrounded by the 10 Sq. Miles of Crazy

MM, did you read the comments in that WP piece? Absolutely appalling.

Theo, I was a Romney supporter in 2012. I was thrilled when he stood in front of the Solyndra factory and pointed out the failures of our "investment" in alternative power. Then he had that stellar performance in the first debate and it seemed like he understood that regular Americans wanted someone - ANYONE - speaking up for them. And then he just fell apart. He didn't display the grit (new fancy word they're using in the education world) necessary to see the campaign through.

That he failed so spectacularly, and it was a colossal failure of the establishment to understand how to galvanize disenfranchised voters, has led us directly to Trump's success. Trump has been inoculated from his more distasteful comments FROM THE BEGINNING because those "lost" voters wanted someone speaking for them about the most pressing issues. The stagnant economy can easily be linked to our immigration policies at the most basic level. People get that. You don't have to have a PhD in economics to understand that if you import low waged unskilled workers, you depress wages. The establishment idiots think they can complicate the issue, but it's pretty simple.

Now we can have a debate about the value immigrants bring to our country, but that debate can't happen until politicians own up to how damaging the immigration policies have been on our domestic economy for American workers.

Trump gets this. He is speaking to people who want and need to hear their reality being validated.

Romney never got it because he operates in a world where his view is not challenged. My BIL, bigwig self-made CEO and long time Republican, sounds just like Romney and plans to vote for Clinton to protect his interests. He is simply unaware on any level of the pain people are feeling in the rest of the country. It is astounding.

Beasts of England

Exit trolling!! Love it, TK!

Janet

a funny comment on FB about the MFM protecting Hillary -
Privus Sapo - "Will the Donks run out of Little Dutch Boys able to plug holes?"

Porchlight

Great comment, Robin.

I have a policy of never, ever reading comments at WaPo. :)

In 2012 I got burned by thinking the polls were wrong. This year I am going with the polls. Some I like, some I don't.

But if you haven't seen it yet, I will repost. I would encourage anyone worried about polls to look at this, from June 6:

http://axiomstrategies.com/abc/

Florida - Hillsborough County: Clinton 39% - Trump 41%, Trump +2 (Mitt lost)

Colorado - Jefferson County: Clinton: 40% - Trump 36%, Clinton +4

North Carolina - Watauga County: Clinton 39% - Trump 43%, Trump +4 (Mitt lost)

Ohio - Sandusky County: Clinton 34% - Trump 39%, Trump +5 (Mitt lost)

Pennsylvania - Luzerne County: Clinton 34% - Trump 51%, Trump +17 (No Republican has won Luzerne since 1988)

Virginia - Loudoun County: Clinton 45% - Trump 37%, Clinton +8

Nevada - Washoe County: Clinton 34% - Trump 46%, Trump +12 (Mitt lost big time)

Now, things may change once the Bernvictims start coming home. But that Luzerne County number is....striking. Romney lost Luzerne by 5 and the state by 5.4. Trump is +17.

Janet

At this rate, linguists might as well go ahead and designate “Clinton aide” a synonym for criminal.

THat is a great line too, pagar.

Porchlight

And anyone who thinks Ted Cruz would be +17 right now in Luzerne County, PA is smoking some serious crack. This is not just "we want a Republican." This is "we want Trump."

Porchlight

This seems like kind of a BFD, from yesterday. Shaun King is a BLM guy. The linked video is a Good Morning America segment about the Clinton Foundation. Poor Steffi looks so unhappy.

Comments are very interesting. King is a Sanders supporter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/741314507822272513

Shaun King @ShaunKing

Holy shit.

This is not a good look for Hillary Clinton or the Clinton Foundation.

They said they didn't do this.
https://amp.twimg.com/v/8e1b4162-8e92-4066-8fbd-d27548d9829c
10:02 AM - 10 Jun 2016

Janet

related to Porchlight's 10:11 - http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/10/how_clinton_donor_rajiv_fernando_got_a_job_as_a_nuclear_expert_he_wasn_t.html

At Slate.

Porchlight

Thanks, Janet! I'm reposting some stuff on the new thread....

Buckeye

And anyone who thinks Ted Cruz would be +17 right now in Luzerne County, PA is smoking some serious crack. This is not just "we want a Republican." This is "we want Trump."

Exactly what I have been observing in Pennsylvania. It is more than "we want Trump".

It is also, whether good or bad, "we want someone who is prepared to do whatever it takes".

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Wilson/Plame